IF Comp: Raising The Time Limit

[Al]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Based on the number of entries in next years Comp (whatever that would be)
Would it make more sense to raise the time limit to 3 hours rather than 2?

Also the judging could take place later say maybe mid- November to Dec 1 in
order to give the players more time to play possibly longer games and make
their decisions.

Games like Slouching, Meteor Stone
Sherbet and others which might take more than 2 hours to really get into
could be evaluated in a more thorough manner.

2 hours just doesnt seem like enough time.

Thougnts rants spams and flames welcomed.

Al

 

[merk]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"Al" <radical1@qadas.com> wrote in message
news:BDCC8E23.964%radical1@qadas.com...
> Based on the number of entries in next years Comp (whatever that would be)
> Would it make more sense to raise the time limit to 3 hours rather than
2?
> 2 hours just doesnt seem like enough time.

Well, we were supposed to write shorter games (even though some of us
didn't), which is the purpose of the competition. Increasing the time limit
would be counterproductive to the competition's present goal.

Now, the Spring Thing (http://www.springthing.net) -- this appears to be a
competition for medium-sized and longer games, where two hours becomes an
evening or two of gameplay instead.

---- Mike.

 

[Guest]

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In article <%jHpd.102377$tU4.57120@okepread06>,
Merk <sid_ney_merk@hot_mail.com (remove underscores)> wrote:
>"Al" <radical1@qadas.com> wrote in message
>news:BDCC8E23.964%radical1@qadas.com...
>> Based on the number of entries in next years Comp (whatever that would be)
>> Would it make more sense to raise the time limit to 3 hours rather than
>2?
>> 2 hours just doesnt seem like enough time.
>
>Well, we were supposed to write shorter games (even though some of us
>didn't), which is the purpose of the competition. Increasing the time limit
>would be counterproductive to the competition's present goal.

I don't think there's any point in promoting shorter games anymore
(though there was when the Comp was started in '95), so the two-hour
limit shouldn't be taken as a goal per se.

In fact, I'd like to see more medium-to-large games.

But - and this is a big but - there's only so much time. Increasing
the two-hour limit to three hours would mean that the judges would
need 50% more time to judge the game. I think the general feeling is
that the Comp takes too much time and energy as it is. The IF world is
awfully quiet during the judging period. Would we really want to make
that quiet (read: nail-biting suspense for the authors, boredom for
everyone else) last 50% longer?

--
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se)
PGP Public Key available at http://www.df.lth.se/~mol

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Here, Magnus Olsson <mol@df.lth.se> wrote:

> But - and this is a big but - there's only so much time. Increasing
> the two-hour limit to three hours would mean that the judges would
> need 50% more time to judge the game. I think the general feeling is
> that the Comp takes too much time and energy as it is. The IF world is
> awfully quiet during the judging period.

It's awfully quiet *outside* the judging period, too. I'd rather see
more games outside the IFComp than broaden the IFComp to include more
games.

> Would we really want to make that quiet (read: nail-biting suspense
> for the authors, boredom for everyone else) last 50% longer?

1997 was the year we tried a three-month judging period. That was way
too long.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
I'm still thinking about what to put in this space.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

I think the hush hush rule is bullshit anyway. I want to know why
it's installed. I hear because discussion could persuade judges.
That's ludicrous and will debate that anyday.

Hollywood releases it's film and its discussed before, during, and
after to a great degree. Then the awards are given, best actor, etc a
while later.

I respect some rules but that one is completely bogus and ruins the
event. Let's face it, the excitement has kinda boiled down now.
That's two whole weeks of excitement that could've been months if we
could open our minds.

But anyway, I found more excitement elsewhere during the bullshit hush
period, playing bingo on yahoo and going to topless barber shops.

A.P. Hill

 

[Guest]

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aphill@altavista.com (A.P. Hill) wrote in
news:61188078.0411261904.3cc29b4b@posting.google.com:

> But anyway, I found more excitement elsewhere during the bullshit hush
> period, playing bingo on yahoo and going to topless barber shops.

I don't get it. What's the point of making you remove your shirt to get a
haircut when they'll just put that giant bib over you anyway?

Dave Doty

 

[Guest]

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"Magnus Olsson" <mol@df.lth.se> wrote in message
news:30p20jF3387b2U1@uni-berlin.de...
> I don't think there's any point in promoting shorter games anymore
> (though there was when the Comp was started in '95), so the two-hour
> limit shouldn't be taken as a goal per se.
>
> In fact, I'd like to see more medium-to-large games.

Me too.

I don't think the judging period should be lengthened, though. If
the total play time of entered games were to increase notably,
we would just have fewer people able to vote on and review all
the entries. Would that be so bad? It would mean that after
the competition, after you've judged, you could get a good idea
of which games to play of the ones you didn't have time for.

> But - and this is a big but - there's only so much time. Increasing
> the two-hour limit to three hours would mean that the judges would
> need 50% more time to judge the game.

This is only a big deal if lots of entrants decide to aim for games
50% larger. I doubt they would. As it is, the competition sees
a lot of entries that seem to've been only barely completed.

Also, I doubt the elimination of the two-hour guideline would
relieve the pressure on entrants to include a walkthrough. You
can get through a game almost as quickly as you want if you have
a walkthrough.

Kevin Venzke

 

[Guest]

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"Magnus Olsson" <mol@df.lth.se> wrote in message
news:30p20jF3387b2U1@uni-berlin.de...
> In article <%jHpd.102377$tU4.57120@okepread06>,
> Merk <sid_ney_merk@hot_mail.com (remove underscores)> wrote:
>>"Al" <radical1@qadas.com> wrote in message
>>news:BDCC8E23.964%radical1@qadas.com...
>>> Based on the number of entries in next years Comp (whatever that would
>>> be)
>>> Would it make more sense to raise the time limit to 3 hours rather than
>>2?
>>> 2 hours just doesnt seem like enough time.
>>
>>Well, we were supposed to write shorter games (even though some of us
>>didn't), which is the purpose of the competition. Increasing the time
>>limit
>>would be counterproductive to the competition's present goal.
>
> I don't think there's any point in promoting shorter games anymore
> (though there was when the Comp was started in '95), so the two-hour
> limit shouldn't be taken as a goal per se.

Short fiction is an art form. Short IF is an art form too. I have no problem
with a timed judging period for short IF.

> In fact, I'd like to see more medium-to-large games.

That is what the rest of the year, and indeed the XYZZY Awards, are for.
("Anchorhead", for example, was not a comp game. It was still, as I
remember, a *good* game.) And if some newbie wins a top spot in the IFComp,
then I'm sure s/he can move on to create a larger game the following June
that the rest of us will want to try out.

If we want to see more medium-to-large games gain more prominence, then what
we need to do is to provide more on-the-spot reviews for games that get
[ANNOUNCE]d in here.

> But - and this is a big but - there's only so much time. Increasing
> the two-hour limit to three hours would mean that the judges would
> need 50% more time to judge the game. I think the general feeling is
> that the Comp takes too much time and energy as it is. The IF world is
> awfully quiet during the judging period. Would we really want to make
> that quiet (read: nail-biting suspense for the authors, boredom for
> everyone else) last 50% longer?

Well, no.

--
zimriel sbc dot
at global net
..
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/zimriel/
*new improved shorter .sig*

 

[Guest]

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"A.P. Hill" <aphill@altavista.com> wrote in message
news:61188078.0411261904.3cc29b4b@posting.google.com...
> I think the hush hush rule is bullshit anyway. I want to know why
> it's installed. I hear because discussion could persuade judges.
> That's ludicrous and will debate that anyday.

> I respect some rules but that one is completely bogus and ruins the
> event. Let's face it, the excitement has kinda boiled down now.
> That's two whole weeks of excitement that could've been months if we
> could open our minds.

I think I agree, that the hush rule probably reduces the total amount
of discussion.

But without the rule, judges might decide to try to accomplish
something specific with their vote. For instance, EAS3 haters would
learn that a lot of people like it, and so decide to give EAS3 a 1
instead of a 6 in order to keep it from winning. And then, who
knows, EAS3 might win the discord banana.

This could be fixed somewhat with a different voting rule.

Kevin Venzke

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"A.P. Hill" <aphill@altavista.com> wrote in message
news:61188078.0411261904.3cc29b4b@posting.google.com...
> I think the hush hush rule is bullshit anyway. I want to know why
> it's installed. I hear because discussion could persuade judges.
> That's ludicrous and will debate that anyday.

> I respect some rules but that one is completely bogus and ruins the
> event. Let's face it, the excitement has kinda boiled down now.
> That's two whole weeks of excitement that could've been months if we
> could open our minds.

I think I agree, that the hush rule probably reduces the total amount
of discussion.

But without the rule, judges might decide to try to accomplish
something specific with their vote. For instance, EAS3 haters would
learn that a lot of people like it, and so decide to give EAS3 a 1
instead of a 6 in order to keep it from winning. And then, who
knows, EAS3 might win the discord banana.

This could be fixed somewhat with a different voting rule.

Kevin Venzke

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"Kevin Venzke" <stepjakk@yahooo.frr> wrote in newsJTpd.982703$Gx4.749809
@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

> For instance, EAS3 haters would
> learn that a lot of people like it, and so decide to give EAS3 a 1
> instead of a 6 in order to keep it from winning. And then, who
> knows, EAS3 might win the discord banana.

If you hate a game that much, why not just play it safe and give it a 1
even without feedback, just in case a bunch of other people like it?

Dave Doty

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Here, Kevin Venzke <stepjakk@yahooo.frr> wrote:
>
> I think I agree, that the hush rule probably reduces the total amount
> of discussion.
>
> But without the rule, judges might decide to try to accomplish
> something specific with their vote. For instance, EAS3 haters would
> learn that a lot of people like it, and so decide to give EAS3 a 1
> instead of a 6 in order to keep it from winning.

The hush rule isn't really aimed at that kind of score-gaming. It's
simpler: it's very easy to influence people. It's very easy to be
influenced. In the first IFComp, the audience had (to some extent)
reached a consensus before judging was over. In a situation like that,
who can say whether they would have given a different score if they
hadn't read all the arguments back and forth about a game's merits?

(Plus you have all the "US election" problems -- someone who is three
weeks late playing the games could discover that the outcome is
practically decided, and then why bother voting?)

You could wind up with one person who is particularly vocal, or
particularly convincing (or just particularly well-respected) having a
disproportionate influence on the results. That's not unrealistic --
it happens in real life -- but it's impossible to separate that factor
from what people decide separately, once you let it mix in. So the
IFComp goes for separation.

If you want to see what the audience thinks *after* discussion, you
look at the XYZZY Awards.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
I'm still thinking about what to put in this space.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Your going to sit here and tell me that you don't think discussion is
going on ALOT between everyone in the community OFF of this newsgroup.
C'mon, that's the problem, you got a bunch of people
email/icq/letters/faxes/palm/flying folded airplanes... and the rest
of the 'public' is left with the hush rule.

I feel for the common man left in the cold.

A.P. Hill
Community Leader

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <UxTpd.34281$bP2.15331@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com>,
Zimri <zimriel@SBCspammlesforglobal.net> wrote:
>"Magnus Olsson" <mol@df.lth.se> wrote in message
>news:30p20jF3387b2U1@uni-berlin.de...
>> In article <%jHpd.102377$tU4.57120@okepread06>,
>> Merk <sid_ney_merk@hot_mail.com (remove underscores)> wrote:
>>>Well, we were supposed to write shorter games (even though some of us
>>>didn't), which is the purpose of the competition. Increasing the time
>>>limit
>>>would be counterproductive to the competition's present goal.
>>
>> I don't think there's any point in promoting shorter games anymore
>> (though there was when the Comp was started in '95), so the two-hour
>> limit shouldn't be taken as a goal per se.
>
>Short fiction is an art form. Short IF is an art form too. I have no problem
>with a timed judging period for short IF.

Merk wrote that the purpose of the Comp was to make us write short
games. I, like you, don't have a problem with a Comp for short games, but
I see the short games as a consequence of the Comp rules (the judges
must be able to play all the games in reasonable time) rather than as
a reason for them (to promote shorter games because everybody is writing
too long games).

--
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se)
PGP Public Key available at http://www.df.lth.se/~mol

 

[merk]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"Magnus Olsson" <mol@df.lth.se> wrote in message
news:30qr1oF32q4rpU1@uni-berlin.de...

> Merk wrote that the purpose of the Comp was to make us write short
> games. I, like you, don't have a problem with a Comp for short games, but
> I see the short games as a consequence of the Comp rules (the judges
> must be able to play all the games in reasonable time) rather than as
> a reason for them (to promote shorter games because everybody is writing
> too long games).

Well, this is taken from the first line of text at
http://www.ifcomp.org/ ---

"Welcome to IFComp 2004, the competition for short text adventures."

Lengthening the voting period or the two hour limit might turn it into a
different competition. Maybe that's not a big deal now, but it does seem to
work. I like the idea of a competition for longer games too, and that angle
seems to be covered by the Spring Thing.

That's all I meant.

---- Mike.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <dSWpd.102445$tU4.13002@okepread06>,
Merk <sid_ney_merk@hot_mail.com (remove underscores)> wrote:
>"Magnus Olsson" <mol@df.lth.se> wrote in message
>news:30qr1oF32q4rpU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
>> Merk wrote that the purpose of the Comp was to make us write short
>> games. I, like you, don't have a problem with a Comp for short games, but
>> I see the short games as a consequence of the Comp rules (the judges
>> must be able to play all the games in reasonable time) rather than as
>> a reason for them (to promote shorter games because everybody is writing
>> too long games).
>
>Well, this is taken from the first line of text at
>http://www.ifcomp.org/ ---
>
>"Welcome to IFComp 2004, the competition for short text adventures."
>
>Lengthening the voting period or the two hour limit might turn it into a
>different competition. Maybe that's not a big deal now, but it does seem to
>work. I like the idea of a competition for longer games too, and that angle
>seems to be covered by the Spring Thing.
>
>That's all I meant.

OK; in that case I think we agree. Lengthening the voting period would
turn the Comp into a different competition. I think it would be a
worse competition simply because we would have to wait so long for the
results.

--
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se)
PGP Public Key available at http://www.df.lth.se/~mol

 

[Guest]

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Here, A.P. Hill <aphill@altavista.com> wrote:
> Your going to sit here and tell me that you don't think discussion is
> going on ALOT between everyone in the community OFF of this
> newsgroup.

No, it is not.

To be more exact: there is a fair amount of discussion *between people
who have finished judging and turned in their scores*. This is not
against the rules.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
I'm still thinking about what to put in this space.

 

[Guest]

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"David Doty" <davedoty@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95ADF2AA5504Bdsdoty@38.119.71.33...
> "Kevin Venzke" <stepjakk@yahooo.frr> wrote in newsJTpd.982703$Gx4.749809
> @bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
> > For instance, EAS3 haters would
> > learn that a lot of people like it, and so decide to give EAS3 a 1
> > instead of a 6 in order to keep it from winning. And then, who
> > knows, EAS3 might win the discord banana.
>
> If you hate a game that much, why not just play it safe and give it a 1
> even without feedback, just in case a bunch of other people like it?

It could be that, with the hush rule, people rate more honestly than
otherwise, because they feel able to trust the other voters'
judgment. If people knew what others were thinking, they might
feel the need to compensate for the others' "flawed" opinions.

Kevin Venzke

 

[Guest]

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"Magnus Olsson" <mol@df.lth.se> wrote:
> In fact, I'd like to see more medium-to-large games.

I tend to agree - my favorite games have all been longer ones. I think
longer games have a natural advantage when it comes to immersiveness because
of the sheer amount of time you spend in the setting.

> But - and this is a big but - there's only so much time.
> Increasing the two-hour limit to three hours would
> mean that the judges would need 50% more time to
> judge the game. I think the general feeling is that the
> Comp takes too much time and energy as it is.

Definitely. I think a lot of judges get burned out as it is, so extending
the judging period might only dilute the quality of the judging. I think
one of the things that makes the Comp work is the short-game rule, so I'm
not sure the Comp format is the best model for an institutional incentive
for longer games.

It's been said before, but it's worth pointing out again: since there's no
money to be made in IF, the biggest incentive for people to write these
games is the expectation that people will play them. If you want more
longer games (or more of any type of game) to be written, let the authors of
those games know you're playing them - write reviews, post in the
newsgroups, write if-ratings comments, recommend the games to your friends,
etc.

Maybe we could find a second-order incentive - that is, create an incentive
for more reviews and discussion of non-Comp games. Baf's Guide, SPAG,
IF-Review, the Review Conspiracy, etc are a good start, but we'd need a lot
more of the same to approach the level of discussion the Comp generates.
Here's one idea: how about a couple of Xyzzy awards for reviewers? Best
Review, Most Prolific Reviewer, that sort of thing.

--Mike

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

>
> Maybe we could find a second-order incentive - that is, create an incentive
> for more reviews and discussion of non-Comp games. Baf's Guide, SPAG,
> IF-Review, the Review Conspiracy, etc are a good start, but we'd need a lot
> more of the same to approach the level of discussion the Comp generates.
> Here's one idea: how about a couple of Xyzzy awards for reviewers? Best
> Review, Most Prolific Reviewer, that sort of thing.
>
> --Mike
>
>

I love the idea for an XYZZY award for reviews and reviewers! That
makes so much sense it is amazing! Plus, people who don't write games
would get a lot more recognition. Reviews would soar in quality and
volume. You've got my vote my for that.

-Zach

 

[Guest]

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"Mike Roberts" <mjr_@hotmail.com> wrote in news:%N5qd.25797$zx1.15601
@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com:

> Here's one idea: how about a couple of Xyzzy awards for reviewers? Best
> Review, Most Prolific Reviewer, that sort of thing.

I think that's a nice idea, but I think a more direct way to help would be
to try to raise the Xyzzy's profile. Right now, IF comp the THE event.
The Xyzzy's don't get a fraction of the attention, and it probably seem
like a VERY lesser consolation prize for people crafting games that don't
fit in the IF Comp.

If the energy and discussion around *some* set of awards that admitted
longer games, whether the Xyzzys, the Spring Thing or whatever, were raised
to the point that it actually seemed like something worth shooting for, it
might be more of an incentive.

Of course, none of those comments invalidate the idea that awards for
reviewers would be a nice thing.

Dave Doty

 

[Guest]

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David Doty wrote:

> Right now, IF comp the THE event. The Xyzzy's don't get a fraction
> of the attention, and it probably seem like a VERY lesser
> consolation prize for people crafting games that don't
> fit in the IF Comp.

I beg to differ. Xyzzy Awards are a meaningful prize and quite an
honor, at least to me.


--
J. Robinson Wheeler Games - http://raddial.com/if/
JRW Digital Media Movie - http://thekroneexperiment.com
jrw@jrwdigitalmedia.com Comic - http://adamcadre.ac/comics.html

 

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"Mike Roberts" <mjr_@hotmail.com> escreveu na mensagem
news:%N5qd.25797$zx1.15601@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> "Magnus Olsson" <mol@df.lth.se> wrote:

[snip]

>
> Maybe we could find a second-order incentive - that is, create an
incentive
> for more reviews and discussion of non-Comp games. Baf's Guide, SPAG,
> IF-Review, the Review Conspiracy, etc are a good start, but we'd need a
lot
> more of the same to approach the level of discussion the Comp generates.
> Here's one idea: how about a couple of Xyzzy awards for reviewers? Best
> Review, Most Prolific Reviewer, that sort of thing.
>
> --Mike

Well there goes one of the ideas of IfReviews.org

RootShell

 

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In article <41a9dda1$0$23022$a729d347@news.telepac.pt>,
RootShell <rootshell@netcabo.pt> wrote:
>"Mike Roberts" <mjr_@hotmail.com> escreveu na mensagem
>news:%N5qd.25797$zx1.15601@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>> "Magnus Olsson" <mol@df.lth.se> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>
>> Maybe we could find a second-order incentive - that is, create an
>incentive
>> for more reviews and discussion of non-Comp games. Baf's Guide, SPAG,
>> IF-Review, the Review Conspiracy, etc are a good start, but we'd need a
>lot
>> more of the same to approach the level of discussion the Comp generates.
>> Here's one idea: how about a couple of Xyzzy awards for reviewers? Best
>> Review, Most Prolific Reviewer, that sort of thing.
>>
>> --Mike
>
>Well there goes one of the ideas of IfReviews.org

Why? Does one kind of incentive rule out another? Why can't we have both
IFReviews.org and XYZZYs for reviewers? Am I missing soemthing?

--
Magnus Olsson (mol@df.lth.se)
PGP Public Key available at http://www.df.lth.se/~mol

 

[Guest]

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Andrew Plotkin wrote:
> Here, Magnus Olsson <mol@df.lth.se> wrote:
>
> > But - and this is a big but - there's only so much time. Increasing
> > the two-hour limit to three hours would mean that the judges would
> > need 50% more time to judge the game. I think the general feeling is
> > that the Comp takes too much time and energy as it is. The IF world
> > is awfully quiet during the judging period.
>
> It's awfully quiet *outside* the judging period, too. I'd rather see
> more games outside the IFComp than broaden the IFComp to include more
> games.

Because the Competition is so time-intensive, I'm now much less likely
to play Comp games than non-Comp games. I enjoyed Misdirection,
Narcolepsy and Cabal, but haven't yet played any of the three top games
in Comp04. Possibly authors will realise this effect and the pendulum
will swing back to a more even release of games throughout the year.

The SpringComp seems to satisfy Al's desire for a longer-game
competition already.

CK