Looking for "Concealed Environment" games

[samwyse]

Archived from groups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

For several months, I've had an idea for my next game, but couldn't
figure out a good way to translate it into I-F. Over the weekend, an
idea finally crystalized. The game will involve a simple puzzle or two
for the PC to solve, but will also feature a meta-puzzle. The PC will
be a visitor to a place in which he/she/it is somewhat comfortable, but
the player will have the challenge of figuring the world out, hopefully
leading to a flash of insight when the player figures out that the PC
is, for example, living in a jar of Tang. (From the Turkey City Lexicon:
"'For you see, we are all living in a jar of Tang!' or 'For you see, I
am a dog!' Mainstay of the old Twilight Zone TV show.")

On the other hand, one could argue that "Slouching Towards Bedlam" uses
a very similar device. ("When done with serious intent rather than as a
passing conceit, this type of story can be dignified by the term
'Concealed Environment.'") Hopefully, I'll be doing this.

Anyway, I'm looking for other stories that fit this theme (or is it a
meta-theme?), and just as importantly, what other people think of those
stories.

 

[pj]

Archived from groups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

samwyse wrote:
> For several months, I've had an idea for my next game, but couldn't
> figure out a good way to translate it into I-F. Over the weekend, an

> idea finally crystalized. The game will involve a simple puzzle or
two
> for the PC to solve, but will also feature a meta-puzzle. The PC
will
> be a visitor to a place in which he/she/it is somewhat comfortable,
but
> the player will have the challenge of figuring the world out,
hopefully
> leading to a flash of insight when the player figures out that the PC

> is, for example, living in a jar of Tang. (From the Turkey City
Lexicon:
> "'For you see, we are all living in a jar of Tang!' or 'For you see,
I
> am a dog!' Mainstay of the old Twilight Zone TV show.")
>
> On the other hand, one could argue that "Slouching Towards Bedlam"
uses
> a very similar device. ("When done with serious intent rather than
as a
> passing conceit, this type of story can be dignified by the term
> 'Concealed Environment.'") Hopefully, I'll be doing this.
>
> Anyway, I'm looking for other stories that fit this theme (or is it a

> meta-theme?), and just as importantly, what other people think of
those
> stories.

Andrew Plotkin's Shade is, I think, a perfect example of what you are
talking about, though on a more serious note than "living in a jar of
Tang." Doubtless there are others, but Shade is the most well-known
example of this one-room, meta-puzzle type of game.

PJ

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

I think one of the most honest thrills to be had in IF is the discovery
of the world the PC inhabits. Whether the world is familiar to the
player or not, exploring the author's imagination in an interactive way
is one of the things that makes IF unique and wonderful. A story in
which the nature of the world itself remains to be discovered has great
potential for surprise, discovery and vivid "experience."

The trick as a designer will be in not tipping your hand too soon, or
too obviously; the player shouldn't see the revelations coming TOO far
in advance, and you'll have to "overload" most of your descriptions and
interactions to cope with various levels of the player's awareness as
the game progresses. It's no doubt easier to allow the player small
discoveries within a concrete world than to reveal the world itself in
small and tantalizing bites. But if you can pull it off, most players
should find it a rewarding experience.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

A discussion like this is inevitably going to be a bit spoilerish. So,
I'll try to avoid them, but bear that caveat in mind.

I think Shade is a bit more of a twist ending than quite what Samwyse
was asking for. It's not really a puzzle, as there's nothing you can do
about the situation. A better example that springs to mind is John
Ingold's Failsafe. How you interpret events in the game affects what
you do at the end, leading to very different endings.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

On 22 Feb 2005 10:41:46 -0800, "MockTurtle" <mockferret@gmail.com>
wrote:

>A discussion like this is inevitably going to be a bit spoilerish. So,
>I'll try to avoid them, but bear that caveat in mind.
>
>I think Shade is a bit more of a twist ending than quite what Samwyse
>was asking for. It's not really a puzzle, as there's nothing you can do
>about the situation. A better example that springs to mind is John
>Ingold's Failsafe. How you interpret events in the game affects what
>you do at the end, leading to very different endings.

I was forgetting Failsafe when I made my previous post. Failsafe is a
a very good example of this idea. Adam Cadre's 9:05 is another.

Steve

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

samwyse wrote:
> Anyway, I'm looking for other stories that fit this theme (or is it a
> meta-theme?), and just as importantly, what other people think of those
> stories.

For an example of a sort of this that was, IMHO, done rather poorly, see
Bliss by Cameron Wilkin. It's done poorly, I think, because it pretty
much gives every thing away in the first quarter or so of the game, and
in a not particularly subtle or clever way.

- A. Venegas-Steele (alkahest)
alkahestae AT bellsouth DOT net

--

"It is hard to duplicate, using ordinary methods, the efficiency and
effectiveness of a computer. It is also hard to duplicate, using
ordinary methods, the degree of devastation and disaster possible on a
computer."
- _The Personal Computer Book_, Peter A. McWilliams

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

samwyse <dejanews@email.com> wrote in message news:<NxFSd.18763$D34.10908@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com>...
> For several months, I've had an idea for my next game, but couldn't
> figure out a good way to translate it into I-F. Over the weekend, an
> idea finally crystalized. The game will involve a simple puzzle or two
> for the PC to solve, but will also feature a meta-puzzle. The PC will
> be a visitor to a place in which he/she/it is somewhat comfortable, but
> the player will have the challenge of figuring the world out, hopefully
> leading to a flash of insight when the player figures out that the PC
> is, for example, living in a jar of Tang. (From the Turkey City Lexicon:
> "'For you see, we are all living in a jar of Tang!' or 'For you see, I
> am a dog!' Mainstay of the old Twilight Zone TV show.")
>

Michael Gentry's 'Little Blue Men' is the closest match to your
criteria that I can think of, although as in 'Shade' the exposition
and realisation of what is going on in LBM is gradual.

Arguably, my 2002 IFComp entry "Photograph" has some of the elements
you're looking for, but in that case the game starts with the PC in an
odd state and the story-line progresses towards gaining an
understanding of what that state is and the reasons for it. So I guess
the structure of Photograph is a bit arse-about to what you're after,
and it's story as opposed to puzzle driven, so there is no
meta-puzzle.

Cheers,

Steve

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"samwyse" <dejanews@email.com> wrote in message
news:NxFSd.18763$D34.10908@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> For several months, I've had an idea for my next game, but couldn't
> figure out a good way to translate it into I-F. Over the weekend, an
> idea finally crystalized. The game will involve a simple puzzle or two
> for the PC to solve, but will also feature a meta-puzzle. The PC will
> be a visitor to a place in which he/she/it is somewhat comfortable, but
> the player will have the challenge of figuring the world out, hopefully
> leading to a flash of insight when the player figures out that the PC

The game which immediately spirings to mind for me is "Little Girl in the
Big World", a custom parser job... not a particularly good game, but it was
fun reading the newsgroup discussion afterward and seeing the varying
degrees to which players had figured it out.

Andrew

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"DaleOffworld" <ddobson@offworldmarketing.com> wrote in message
news:1109092041.357682.247570@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> The trick as a designer will be in not tipping your hand too soon, or
> too obviously; the player shouldn't see the revelations coming TOO far
> in advance, and you'll have to "overload" most of your descriptions and
> interactions to cope with various levels of the player's awareness as
> the game progresses.

My suggestion -- having been disappointed by way too many Twilight Zone-ish
stories -- is to make sure that discovering the nature of the environment
isn't the ONLY point to the game. I think people are so desensitized to
this sort of plot that we tend to be disappointed by it (at least I am) and
see it as a gimmick that wasn't worth the effort discovering ("Oh, I've been
DEAD all this time...that's all?")

Movies and stories using this twist that I DO find satisfying are ones where
the twist is a plot element, but not the ENTIRE plot. I think it should
enrich the rest of the plot. Two movies that did this well:

(SPOILERS!)
..
..
..


















....were "Jacob's Ladder" and "The Others." Not only did they manage to keep
(most of us) in the dark about the nature of the environment, but when the
"twist" was finally revealed, the depth of the REST of the plot was ALSO
revealed. The characters were complex enough to rise above the twist,
without just being a vehicle for it.

Most importantly, the movies aren't REALLY about the twist at all...they're
about people coming to grips with awful situations, dealing with denial,
loss, regret and shame. If it was just "oh, they're DEAD" then the movies
would be unsatisfying.

Muffy
www.dangermuff.com

 

[pj]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Esa A E Peuha wrote:

> 9:05 is much better in comparsion; a simple logical action reveals
> everything, and then there's even better motive to leave the place.

Well, I though samwyse was talking primarily about "environments," not
identities. 9:05 certainly represents a clever meta-puzzle about the
latter, but I don't think the environment is the question mark in that
game.

PJ

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

On 24 Feb 2005 05:29:50 -0800, "PJ" <pete_jasper@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>Esa A E Peuha wrote:
>
>> 9:05 is much better in comparsion; a simple logical action reveals
>> everything, and then there's even better motive to leave the place.
>
>Well, I though samwyse was talking primarily about "environments," not
>identities. 9:05 certainly represents a clever meta-puzzle about the
>latter, but I don't think the environment is the question mark in that
>game.
>
>PJ

Yes, and No.

***Spoilers for 9:05 follow***


















This game is perhaps more of the "I am a jar of Tang!" than "We are
living in a jar of Tang!" variety, however the player's preconceptions
about the game-world also undergo a radical shift on reaching the
intended ending. For example, I know I wasn't alone in immediately
replaying the game so I could look under the bed.

-Steve

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Muffy St. Bernard wrote:

> Movies and stories using this twist that I DO find satisfying are
ones where
> the twist is a plot element, but not the ENTIRE plot. I think it
should
> enrich the rest of the plot.

I agree completely - it's hard to write a story about "the big
revelation" without diminishing the revelation itself in the process.
Some readers/players will see it coming way too early and become bored;
others will not see it coming and will see it as a left-field,
last-minute patch to wrap up the story. It's tough to calibrate, even
when you can control and limit the player's impressions through your
text.

However, I do think a "concealed environment" can be an interesting
background, adding considerable texture to the plot. "Making strange"
by putting the player in an unpredictable universe or an unfamiliar
physical form can bring a greater sense of pleasure in discovery to an
otherwise conventional puzzlethrough.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Steve Evans <ybosde@yahoo.co.uk> writes:

> On 22 Feb 2005 10:41:46 -0800, "MockTurtle" <mockferret@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > A better example that springs to mind is John
> >Ingold's Failsafe. How you interpret events in the game affects what
> >you do at the end, leading to very different endings.
>
> I was forgetting Failsafe when I made my previous post. Failsafe is a
> a very good example of this idea.

Failsafe may be a good example of the idea, but as a game I found it to
be rather poor, for two reasons. The first is that the game seems
completely unfair; for a long time I just couldn't find anything that
would allow me to figure out what's actually going on before making a
fatal mistake, and then I was pretty disappointed to realize that I had
noticed the clues but failed to recognize them as such (I had assumed
that the small oddities of language were simply meant to represent the
natural evolution of language, a common device in futuristic science
fiction to convey the sense of being in a different time; there's
nothing to suggest that they would seem wierd to a human being in the
game's world). The other reason is that, with full knowledge of what is
happening, there is no real motivation to do anything but to wait for
the game to end; none of the other endings are significantly better.

> Adam Cadre's 9:05 is another.

9:05 is much better in comparsion; a simple logical action reveals
everything, and then there's even better motive to leave the place.

--
Esa Peuha
student of mathematics at the University of Helsinki
http://www.helsinki.fi/~peuha/

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

samwyse <dejanews@email.com> wrote in message news:<NxFSd.18763$D34.10908@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com>...
> the player will have the challenge of figuring the world out, hopefully
> leading to a flash of insight when the player figures out that the PC
> is, for example, living in a jar of Tang...
> Anyway, I'm looking for other stories that fit this theme (or is it a
> meta-theme?), and just as importantly, what other people think of those
> stories.

9:05 by Adam Cadre is one of my favorite works of IF.
Short and sharp, a bit like a Roald Dahl short story, the revelation
comes by losing the game.
The resulting "flash" was immensely entertaining, partly because I
realized how much the author had led me by the nose. I was just bound
to walk into the trap.

Jan

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <86pll9e87ye.fsf@sirppi.helsinki.fi>,
Esa A E Peuha <esa.peuha@helsinki.fi> wrote:
Spoilers for "Fail-Safe":


























>The other reason is that, with full knowledge of what is
>happening, there is no real motivation to do anything but to wait for
>the game to end; none of the other endings are significantly better.

I don't agree. It's possible to guide the alien to the laser cannon
control, but then trick it into setting the ship on autopilot, so
that it attacks the attacking fleet. (With the increased-power laser,
too.) That's significantly better, to my mind, than just letting it die.

--
David Goldfarb |"Ah, Amerikanski humor. Is most funny.
goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu |
goldfarb@csua.berkeley.edu | We bomb now."
| -- J. Michael Straczynski

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.arts.int-fiction,rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

samwyse wrote:

> Anyway, I'm looking for other stories that fit this theme (or is it a
> meta-theme?), and just as importantly, what other people think of those
> stories.

IMO Jon Ingold's "Insight" fits the theme. Futhermore it's really well
written and you uncover the background bit by bit, slowly, causing the
narrative tension to rise sharply, climax after climax. The only problem
about this game is the weird implication of the use of the metacommnds.
If you want to try this game I suggest you to...

L

I

G

H

T

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

....NEVER save your game!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

goldfarb@OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) writes:

> In article <86pll9e87ye.fsf@sirppi.helsinki.fi>,
> Esa A E Peuha <esa.peuha@helsinki.fi> wrote:
> Spoilers for "Fail-Safe":
>
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> >The other reason is that, with full knowledge of what is
> >happening, there is no real motivation to do anything but to wait for
> >the game to end; none of the other endings are significantly better.
>
> I don't agree. It's possible to guide the alien to the laser cannon
> control, but then trick it into setting the ship on autopilot, so
> that it attacks the attacking fleet. (With the increased-power laser,
> too.) That's significantly better, to my mind, than just letting it die.

Maybe, if you think that killing a hell of a lot of hostile aliens just
because they happen to be hostile aliens is a good thing. Even so, it's
not possible to know that it can be done without seeing the list of
codes, and there's not much reason to see that list if you already know
that you don't want to save the ship.

--
Esa Peuha
student of mathematics at the University of Helsinki
http://www.helsinki.fi/~peuha/

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <86p650hoslg.fsf@sirppi.helsinki.fi>,
Esa A E Peuha <esa.peuha@helsinki.fi> wrote:
>Maybe, if you think that killing a hell of a lot of hostile aliens just
>because they happen to be hostile aliens is a good thing.

Hey, I'm an American.

Adam