Is the size of the game file significant?

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Hi all! Just a quick poll here.

I'm in the very early stages of game development, and after
having some favorable experiences as a player, I want to
include a soundtrack with my game. This would be background
music that adjusts to the current play situation, has enough
variety to avoid killing innocent people with too much
repetition, and maybe has some specific theme songs for some
key characters. And, while I'm at it with all that audio
stuff, I might as well include some nice ambient background
noises (like waves at the beach, or a cheering crowd at a
sporting event ) as appropriate.

I would be careful to ensure that the game is completely
playable without the music or sound effects. I know people
play games on machines with no audio support, and I know
some people don't have the good fortune that I do in
having functional ears.

As I've started to develop the soundtrack to this game,
I have realized that if I include all of the sound files
I want to include, the total game size will be pretty
huge. Like, over a hundred megs in size. Maybe two or
three hundred megs, if I really go crazy with it.

Yes, I will compress things as much is as reasonable.

So the question is: If I provided two different game
files like this:

Version A : 100 kilobytes, no sound.
Version B : 150 megabytes, lots of pleasant sound.

Which one would you download?

Thanks in advance for responding; it will help me decide
if I should spend extra time composing (read: forcing my
friends who are composers to compose) music.

Happy Hunting, -Chris

 

[pj]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

samwyse wrote:
> On or about 3/3/2005 3:27 AM, Christian Odhner did proclaim:
> > Hi all! Just a quick poll here.
> [...]
> > So the question is: If I provided two different game
> > files like this:
> >
> > Version A : 100 kilobytes, no sound.
> > Version B : 150 megabytes, lots of pleasant sound.
> >
> > Which one would you download?
>
> Your example, in one respect, is close to the break-even point for
me.
> If the amount of sound is half the size of the storyfile, I'd
download
> the sound; if it is three or more times the size of the game, I'd
> probably skip it until I'd played a bit; amounts in-between would
depend
> on my mood that day. However, total size is also important. I'll
d/l
> Anything less than 650 MB if I think it is interesting.

Note Christian's example says the story file is 100 *kilobytes* and the
song file 150 *megabytes*. I won't speak for everyone, but even with a
cable modem I'm not going to download 150 mb files just to play a 100
kb sized game.

Sound doesn't do much for me in IF, anyway. I will play games that
have good graphics tied to rooms or events, but even if they have
sound, it usually just detracts from my focus on the game. I'd rather
put the iPod on shuffle and listen to that while playing.

PJ

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

I experimented with sound and I like it alot, I'm sure you can find a
smaller size wav file with a loop that makes sense, so that it plays
over and over like the sound of wind for instance.

I did that in my game TADS2 game Isis:
http://www.santoonie.com/downloads/isisbeta.gam

You can see the file is not too big and plays an entire ambience song
to the backdrop of wind. (You can listen, in very first room by
opening black pack, get guitar, play guitar)

A.P. Hill

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Wow, Chris... 150 Mb is huge for IF. More than I'd download, honestly,
and I've got a solid SDSL connection. (50Mb is where resistance starts
to build, for me. Anything under that is no problem.)

As far as sound goes, I love ambient noise in a game, but soundtracks
tend to annoy me. Even if I like the music, it quickly gets repetitive
-- and no matter how much variety you pack into the game, there's going
to be some repetition.

By the fifth or sixth repeat, I'm invariably reaching for the mute
button.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

If we're talking speech than yes. If it's just some cheesy background
music in some mp3 files then probably also yes, because I'm a
completist, but I would think it was a waste of space.

Stuart

Christian Odhner wrote:
> Hi all! Just a quick poll here.
>
> I'm in the very early stages of game development, and after
> having some favorable experiences as a player, I want to
> include a soundtrack with my game. This would be background
> music that adjusts to the current play situation, has enough
> variety to avoid killing innocent people with too much
> repetition, and maybe has some specific theme songs for some
> key characters. And, while I'm at it with all that audio
> stuff, I might as well include some nice ambient background
> noises (like waves at the beach, or a cheering crowd at a
> sporting event ) as appropriate.
>
> I would be careful to ensure that the game is completely
> playable without the music or sound effects. I know people
> play games on machines with no audio support, and I know
> some people don't have the good fortune that I do in
> having functional ears.
>
> As I've started to develop the soundtrack to this game,
> I have realized that if I include all of the sound files
> I want to include, the total game size will be pretty
> huge. Like, over a hundred megs in size. Maybe two or
> three hundred megs, if I really go crazy with it.
>
> Yes, I will compress things as much is as reasonable.
>
> So the question is: If I provided two different game
> files like this:
>
> Version A : 100 kilobytes, no sound.
> Version B : 150 megabytes, lots of pleasant sound.
>
> Which one would you download?
>
> Thanks in advance for responding; it will help me decide
> if I should spend extra time composing (read: forcing my
> friends who are composers to compose) music.
>
> Happy Hunting, -Chris

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"Christian Odhner" <trask-SpAm@tinaa.com> wrote in message
news:trask-SpAm-ECC1B7.01274903032005@news.covad.net...
> Hi all! Just a quick poll here.

> As I've started to develop the soundtrack to this game,
> I have realized that if I include all of the sound files
> I want to include, the total game size will be pretty
> huge. Like, over a hundred megs in size. Maybe two or
> three hundred megs, if I really go crazy with it.

If MP3 is an option (there are utilities to convert WAV to MP3), then even
100 MB would probably be way more than you'd need even for a couple hours of
music. If not, you could always do something simple and ambient in MIDI, and
those files are very small. It sounds like you're going to be using WAV? If
so, consider alternatives...

---- Mike.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

I have one word for you... MOD.

150 MB is way too large, IMHO. I'd download the 100k one in a
heartbeat. But since you haven't composed anything yet, you should
look into using MOD music. It's like music created with MIDI, but
with options for much better instruments, and it can be at least an
order of magnitude smaller than MP3 (and while there is a significant
difference in "quality," it doesn't sound bad). You could be looking
at 150 kb zipped for 5 minutes of music. Vocals are, of course, very
difficult to implement.

One major issue is whether your chosen development system supports it.
I know Inform/Glulx supports MOD, but I don't know about TADS.

www.modarchive.com has many example files as well as a "help" section
that can get you/your friends started on making MODs.

Gregory

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Christian Odhner wrote:
> So the question is: If I provided two different game
> files like this:
>
> Version A : 100 kilobytes, no sound.
> Version B : 150 megabytes, lots of pleasant sound.
>
> Which one would you download?

I'd download Version B, because I'd like to hear the sound, but I'd
also be mad. If I wrote a review of the game, I'd be strongly critical.
There's no excuse for that, not when the audio can be hugely compressed
with little or no audible difference.

Greg

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005, Christian Odhner wrote:

> I'm in the very early stages of game development, and after
> having some favorable experiences as a player, I want to
> include a soundtrack with my game. This would be background
> music that adjusts to the current play situation, has enough
> variety to avoid killing innocent people with too much
> repetition, and maybe has some specific theme songs for some
> key characters. And, while I'm at it with all that audio
> stuff, I might as well include some nice ambient background
> noises (like waves at the beach, or a cheering crowd at a
> sporting event ) as appropriate.
>
> [snip]
>
> So the question is: If I provided two different game
> files like this:
>
> Version A : 100 kilobytes, no sound.
> Version B : 150 megabytes, lots of pleasant sound.
>
> Which one would you download?

I have broadband and 150 MB is still a considerable chunk of bits to
download. When you also consider that I turn off the music in nearly
every game I play, version A wins hands down.

==--- --=--=-- ---==
Quintin Stone "You speak of necessary evil? One of those necessities
stone@rps.net is that if innocents must suffer, the guilty must suffer
www.rps.net more." - Mackenzie Calhoun, "Once Burned" by Peter David

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

> So the question is: If I provided two different game
> files like this:
>
> Version A : 100 kilobytes, no sound.
> Version B : 150 megabytes, lots of pleasant sound.
>
> Which one would you download?

I really loved the sound of Lurking Horror. A more recent example: the
sound and especially voice acting on Future Boy! is marvellous and
enhances the story lots. Nevertheless, I probably would download
version A first, play a bit and if I like it I'd also get version B.

Bob

 

[samwyse]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

On or about 3/3/2005 3:27 AM, Christian Odhner did proclaim:
> Hi all! Just a quick poll here.
[...]
> So the question is: If I provided two different game
> files like this:
>
> Version A : 100 kilobytes, no sound.
> Version B : 150 megabytes, lots of pleasant sound.
>
> Which one would you download?

Your example, in one respect, is close to the break-even point for me.
If the amount of sound is half the size of the storyfile, I'd download
the sound; if it is three or more times the size of the game, I'd
probably skip it until I'd played a bit; amounts in-between would depend
on my mood that day. However, total size is also important. I'll d/l
Anything less than 650 MB if I think it is interesting.

BTW, I have a DSL line and ~120 GB of disk. Even before I had all of
that, I could download things at work, burn them to a CD, and bring them
home. Even now, I use CDs for archival storage, which is where that 650
MB limit comes from.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Mike Snyder wrote:
> "Christian Odhner" <trask-SpAm@tinaa.com> wrote in message
> news:trask-SpAm-ECC1B7.01274903032005@news.covad.net...
>> Hi all! Just a quick poll here.
>
>> As I've started to develop the soundtrack to this game,
>> I have realized that if I include all of the sound files
>> I want to include, the total game size will be pretty
>> huge. Like, over a hundred megs in size. Maybe two or
>> three hundred megs, if I really go crazy with it.
>
> If MP3 is an option (there are utilities to convert WAV to MP3), then
> even 100 MB would probably be way more than you'd need even for a
> couple hours of music. If not, you could always do something simple
> and ambient in MIDI, and those files are very small. It sounds like
> you're going to be using WAV? If so, consider alternatives...

Using OGG audio may be preferable here as it generally produces smaller
files than MP3 and is much better quality. The main thing here is that you
can encode to OGG at very low bit rates and produce tiny files that still
sound excellent. With MP3 OTOH the sound quality drops too significantly at
low bit rates to make using them worthwhile. Plus OGG is free and you don't
need any licences to use it.

HTH,
Jon Ripley
--
http://jonripley.com/
Over 15 games available to download for four platforms.
More coming soon!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"Jon Ripley" <news@jonripley.com> wrote in message
news:QBEVd.217674$B8.9788@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> Using OGG audio may be preferable here as it generally produces smaller
> files than MP3 and is much better quality. The main thing here is that you
> can encode to OGG at very low bit rates and produce tiny files that still
> sound excellent. With MP3 OTOH the sound quality drops too significantly
> at low bit rates to make using them worthwhile. Plus OGG is free and you
> don't need any licences to use it.

Is OGG supported by the IF authoring tool in question? (I'm not sure
which -- I don't think he said.) I've never even heard of it, although that
doesn't necessarily mean it isn't supported. Hugo, for instance (and if I'm
correct) uses the media package available for the platform -- Hugo for
Windows uses DirectX I think. So DirectX would need to support OGG for that
to work, right?

I suggested MP3 because I know it works on Windows and Mac, and is common
enough to be a safe bet elsewhere....

---- Mike.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"Mike Snyder" <wyndo@prowler-pro.com> wrote in message
news:tGIVd.2483$ju.1261@okepread07...

> I suggested MP3 because I know it works on Windows and Mac, and is common
> enough to be a safe bet elsewhere....

And as a benchmark, the eight songs in Trading Punches totals a bit under 20
minutes, at 18:30. The TRADMUS resource file is about 8.8MB. Say 9MB for 20
minutes, and even a 90MB resource file would cover almost 3 and a half hours
of music. That's why I suspected that the original poster is wanting to
include WAV files instead.... which would actually be quite huge.

---- Mike.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <trask-SpAm-ECC1B7.01274903032005@news.covad.net>,
Christian Odhner <trask-SpAm@tinaa.com> wrote:

> Version A : 100 kilobytes, no sound.
> Version B : 150 megabytes, lots of pleasant sound.
>
> Which one would you download?

Thanks to everyone for the feedback! Here are some responses to
the more commonly raised questions:

1) I'm using TADS 3, which supports midi, mod, and ogg, at least
in theory.

2) But the available interpreters don't support all the formats
that the language supports; so I was planning to use mp3 as it
is the most widely supported compressed format.

3) Then again, by the time I'm done with my game the 'terps
might have improved.

4) The 100 kilobyte figure is probably smaller than the game
will actually be, and the 150 megabyte figure is probably
very much bigger than the actual size of the with-sound version;
I was trying to emphasize the difference in size so that I
would get strong opinions back, and wow did that work.

-Chris

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"Christian Odhner" <trask-SpAm@tinaa.com> wrote in message
news:trask-SpAm-ECC1B7.01274903032005@news.covad.net...
>
> So the question is: If I provided two different game
> files like this:
>
> Version A : 100 kilobytes, no sound.
> Version B : 150 megabytes, lots of pleasant sound.
>
> Which one would you download?
>

I'm on a 2MB broadband connection so 150 MB would take about 15-20 minutes
to download - no big deal.

Then again, I generally consider sound in interactive fiction to be an
unnecessary pain and I can't remember the last time I actually played a game
with the sound on. If I find my computer making strange beeping sounds at
me, the first thing I do is turn the sound off. So even though 150 MB isn't
a problem as far as downloading is concerned, I'd still get the 100 KB
version.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Christian Odhner wrote:

> Hi all! Just a quick poll here.
>
> I'm in the very early stages of game development, and after
> having some favorable experiences as a player, I want to
> include a soundtrack with my game. This would be background
> music that adjusts to the current play situation, has enough
> variety to avoid killing innocent people with too much
> repetition, and maybe has some specific theme songs for some
> key characters.

It'd be a huge download for me, but I might consider it specifically to
see how you pull all of that off. I looked at something like that a
while back and wrote it off as impossible to do well with prerecorded
music unless you have a really good real-time sound mixing system and a
large database of musical sample information to prevent clashes (unless
you're talking about querying play state flags between tracks, which is
of course a whole lot simpler, if less fun).

> Thanks in advance for responding; it will help me decide
> if I should spend extra time composing (read: forcing my
> friends who are composers to compose) music.

Don't forget the extra time trying to find performers. Getting
composers to work for free these days is easy but musicians require
either a whole lot of cajoling or a whole lot of money.

Michael

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Christian Odhner come on down:

>So the question is: If I provided two different game
>files like this:
>
>Version A : 100 kilobytes, no sound.
>Version B : 150 megabytes, lots of pleasant sound.
>
>Which one would you download?

Version A. I listen to my own music in the background most of the time
anyway.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Christian Odhner wrote:

> Version A : 100 kilobytes, no sound.
> Version B : 150 megabytes, lots of pleasant sound.
>
> Which one would you download?

A without doubt !

I have no use of sound because I'm deaf....

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

 

[samwyse]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

On or about 3/3/2005 5:39 AM, PJ did proclaim:
> Note Christian's example says the story file is 100 *kilobytes* and the
> song file 150 *megabytes*.

D'oh!

In that case, I'd at least want to see the background music broken out,
as I might want to listen to it outside of the game. Of course, I have
a hard time imagining how to fit 150 MB of sound into a game, unless
there's a narration of everything that gets printed or something.