A small IF platform survey

[icEDragon]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Hello,

I am interested to know, as an IF player, if you (well, in this case the IF
Usenet-based portion of players) have had success installing the .Net
Framework and running applications on it (excluding the WINE emulator). If
no, the next question is: would you consider installing it to play an IF
game? If not, what is something that the IF author could do to make it
easier for you to run?*

* pre-empt obligatory lectures on Z-code/Inform

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Icedragon wrote:
<< I am interested to know, as an IF player, if you
(well, in this case the IF Usenet-based portion of
players) have had success installing the .Net Framework
and running applications on it (excluding the WINE
emulator). >>

No.

<< If no, the next question is: would you consider
installing it to play an IF game? >>

Probably not, but that's a moot question since I don't
know of a way to install .NET on my platform of choice
anyhow.

<< If not, what is something that the IF author could
do to make it easier for you to run? >>

Choose a system that runs on more platforms than just WinTel.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Icedragon wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am interested to know, as an IF player, if you (well, in this case
the IF
> Usenet-based portion of players) have had success installing the .Net

> Framework and running applications on it (excluding the WINE
emulator).


When I tried downloading the thing that was supposedly going to allow
me to play the .Net-requiring game from the last IF Comp, it turned out
to be a lot bigger than I thought, and I just decided I didn't want to
let Microsoft put something that big into my computer unless I
absolutely had to. (I'm not sure if I might have found something
smaller to do the same job, but still.)

> If
> no, the next question is: would you consider installing it to play an
IF
> game?

No.

> If not, what is something that the IF author could do to make it
> easier for you to run?*
>
> * pre-empt obligatory lectures on Z-code/Inform

Not require the .Net framework.

Greg

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Icedragon wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am interested to know, as an IF player, if you (well, in this case the IF
> Usenet-based portion of players) have had success installing the .Net
> Framework and running applications on it (excluding the WINE emulator).

No.

> If
> no, the next question is: would you consider installing it to play an IF
> game?

No.

If not, what is something that the IF author could do to make it
> easier for you to run?*

As others have said, don't require me to install the .NET framework.
I'm actually a little confused as to why this issue keeps cropping up
with IF software. I have a fair variety of free, shareware, and
commercial software installed on this machine, and none of it has ever
required me to install this framework to run. Surely there is SOME way
to package software developed with .NET that is transparent to the user?

I think you need to ask yourself what this .NET framework will give you
that is worth losing all of your potential non-Windows players, as well
as a good percentage of those who do use Windows. Only you can know for
sure, but I suspect that there has to be another way that will work just
as well.

Jimmy

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

> I am interested to know, as an IF player, if you (well, in this case
> the IF Usenet-based portion of players) have had success
> installing the .Net Framework and running applications on it
>(excluding the WINE emulator).

I had the NET framework installed before the IFComp last year but it
still didn't allow me to play your game properly. The cursor froze, the
screen wouldn't react and no matter what keys I pressed I saw different
letters appear on the screen. In the end, I deleted it.

> If no, the next question is: would you consider installing it to
play > an IF game?

I have it installed already but if I didn't, would I install it for the
sake of playing a game? No.

> If not, what is something that the IF author could do to make it
> easier for you to run?

Try writing the game with a platform that already exists instead of
creating your own. No one's impressed by a platform that doesn't work.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Icedragon wrote:

> I am interested to know, as an IF player, if you (well, in this case the IF
> Usenet-based portion of players) have had success installing the .Net
> Framework and running applications on it (excluding the WINE emulator).

Only small, "Hello World"-ish programs. But I do have it installed
wouldn't be against using it for a game, so I suppose that I'm a
minority here.

best,
james cunningham

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Icedragon wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am interested to know, as an IF player, if you (well, in this case the IF
> Usenet-based portion of players) have had success installing the .Net
> Framework and running applications on it (excluding the WINE emulator).

No. Indirectly, yes. What a mess!

> If no, the next question is: would you consider installing it to play an IF
> game?

Absolutely not.

If not, what is something that the IF author could do to make it
> easier for you to run?*
>
> * pre-empt obligatory lectures on Z-code/Inform
>

I would suggest that *anything* you consider doing with .Net, you
should reconsider and do with Java.

 

[steve]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"Paul Drallos" <pdrallos@tir.com> wrote in message
news:fv6dnRDV897ok9HfRVn-rw@comcast.com...

>
> I would suggest that *anything* you consider doing with .Net, you should
> reconsider and do with Java.
>

Even develope applications for PocketPC?!? Interesting...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Icedragon wrote:

> I am interested to know, as an IF player, if you (well, in this case the
> IF Usenet-based portion of players) have had success installing the .Net
> Framework and running applications on it (excluding the WINE emulator).

I installed it for your 2004 comp game Getting Back To Sleep. That's the
only program I've ever run with the .NET framework, and I'm pretty sure
that this was before my hard drive failure, so I no longer even have the
framework installed.

> If no, the next question is: would you consider installing it to play an
> IF game?

I installed it for IFComp04 for the sake of completeness. I'd probably do
the same again in the future, but only grudgingly, as the last game's only
distinguishing feature was that it was in real-time, something that I felt
didn't really add any value. Anyway, I'll probably install the .NET
framework eventually anyway, whenever it is I get around to learning the
..NET languages.

> If not, what is something that the IF author could do to make it easier
> for you to run?*

If you require the .NET framework and people don't want to download and/or
install it, I'm not sure what kind of answer you're looking for here.
There doesn't seem to be anything you could do to get around this.

==--- --=--=-- ---==
Quintin Stone "You speak of necessary evil? One of those necessities
stone@rps.net is that if innocents must suffer, the guilty must suffer
www.rps.net more." - Mackenzie Calhoun, "Once Burned" by Peter David

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"Icedragon" <icenetREMOVETHIS@icedragon.net> wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I am interested to know, as an IF player, if you (well, in this case the IF
>Usenet-based portion of players) have had success installing the .Net
>Framework and running applications on it (excluding the WINE emulator).

I haven't tried.

>If no, the next question is: would you consider installing it to play an IF
>game?

No. Apart from the fact that I don't know if it would even run on
Windows 98, I'm not going to install a >20 mb program to run a 128 kb
game, especially if I don't think I'll ever use it for anything else.

>If not, what is something that the IF author could do to make it
>easier for you to run?*

I don't know what you mean by 'it'. The .Net framework or the game?
If you mean the game, use something, that makes for a smaller
download?

>* pre-empt obligatory lectures on Z-code/Inform

Use Tads, Hugo, Alan, Adrift, Paws, Quest write your own small,
portable C parser from scratch?

--
Sophie Frühling

"El arte no viste pantalones."
-- Rubén Darío

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

On Jeudi 31 Mars 2005 06:02, Icedragon wrote:
>
> I am interested to know, as an IF player, if you (well, in this
> case the IF Usenet-based portion of players) have had success
> installing the .Net Framework and running applications on it
> (excluding the WINE emulator).

I had no success because I made no attempt. By the way, Wine Is
Not an Emulator.

> If no, the next question is: would you consider installing it to
> play an IF game?

If the IF game was great and renowned, I would put the
installation of the .Net Framework on my TODO list, which means I
would do it at some random point in the next decade (at about the
same time I would take the chance to alter the configuration of
my Windows computer).

> If not, what is something that the IF author could do to make it
> easier for you to run?*
>
> * pre-empt obligatory lectures on Z-code/Inform

It is a miracle or a dream.

--
spam.bucket@free.fr
You have my name and my hostname: you can mail me.
(Put a period between my first and last names).

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

I play IF almost exclusively on my Palm handheld. If the .NET runtime
were avilable for that platform, I still wouldn't install it under any
circumstances, and fortunately, it isn't.

Writing a game using .NET is certainly your perogative, but you'll
probably find that it gets played only by people who already have a
working installation of the .NET runtime. Writing your game in VB 6
would be less onerous, and that still leaves it a platform-specific
excercise in guess-the-DLL-version-needed.

If you really must write using a non-IF language, such as C, I'd
suggest writing in very portable ANSI-C, and providing source code to
allow those of us with the inclination to port your game to our
platform of choice -- even the Palm.

Best of luck!
Brandon

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Icedragon <icenetREMOVETHIS@icedragon.net> wrote:
> Hello,

> I am interested to know, as an IF player, if you (well, in this case the IF
> Usenet-based portion of players) have had success installing the .Net
> Framework and running applications on it (excluding the WINE emulator). If
> no, the next question is: would you consider installing it to play an IF
> game? If not, what is something that the IF author could do to make it
> easier for you to run?*

> * pre-empt obligatory lectures on Z-code/Inform

>KILL THE FLY WITH THE AXE
Which axe do you mean, the teensy axe or the atomic-powered supersonic
planet-smashing axe?

>TEENSY
The fly expires.


--
David Griffith
dgriffi@cs.csbuak.edu <-- Switch the 'b' and 'u'

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Icedragon wrote:
> I am interested to know, as an IF player, if you (well, in this case the IF
> Usenet-based portion of players) have had success installing the .Net
> Framework and running applications on it (excluding the WINE emulator). If
> no, the next question is: would you consider installing it to play an IF
> game?

The .NET runtime I've got came with Visual C++, so installation was no
problem. I wouldn't download a 20Mb monster from Microsoft to play an IF
game if I didn't already have it though, especially when there are loads
os TADS and Z-code games I've not played.

> If not, what is something that the IF author could do to make it
> easier for you to run?*

Not use .NET? If you use something that requires a huge runtime
download (God knows why it's so vast, even Java is smaller) then you'll
probably put lots of people off: I can't see any way around that.

David

 

[icEDragon]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

See inline.

<dwhyld@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1112283743.731244.119200@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> I am interested to know, as an IF player, if you (well, in this case
>> the IF Usenet-based portion of players) have had success
>> installing the .Net Framework and running applications on it
>>(excluding the WINE emulator).
>
> I had the NET framework installed before the IFComp last year but it
> still didn't allow me to play your game properly. The cursor froze, the
> screen wouldn't react and no matter what keys I pressed I saw different
> letters appear on the screen. In the end, I deleted it.

I can sympathize that would be frustrating. I couldn't find any other user
with this particular problem, so this likely isn't a problem with the game
in particular. (probably either a problem with device drivers or a bug in
..Net). I received some e-mails about people not being able to get .Net
working (any application, much less the game), but almost none with trouble
concerning a crash or major failure of game itself once they had it loaded.
Those that did were all running under WINE, which is known to have
compatibility problems. I should also say that there were many people who
enjoyed the game and completed it.

>> If no, the next question is: would you consider installing it to
> play > an IF game?
>
> I have it installed already but if I didn't, would I install it for the
> sake of playing a game? No.
>
>> If not, what is something that the IF author could do to make it
>> easier for you to run?
>
> Try writing the game with a platform that already exists instead of
> creating your own. No one's impressed by a platform that doesn't work.

Point taken. I think that writing the platform is part of the fun; to know
that you could do it. While it is true that one may not have all of the
features of Adrift or Inform, learning is about trying, and I learned much.

I appreciate the feedback, this is really interesting stuff to hear.

 

[icEDragon]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

> If not, what is something that the IF author could do to make it
>> easier for you to run?*
>
> As others have said, don't require me to install the .NET framework. I'm
> actually a little confused as to why this issue keeps cropping up with IF
> software. I have a fair variety of free, shareware, and commercial
> software installed on this machine, and none of it has ever required me to
> install this framework to run. Surely there is SOME way to package
> software developed with .NET that is transparent to the user?

You would think so, but unfortunately, there is no way that I know of. You
can't distribute a dll like you could with VB6. Java has a similar problem,
albeit the package is a lot smaller.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Icedragon wrote:

>>If not, what is something that the IF author could do to make it
>>
>>>easier for you to run?*
>>
>>As others have said, don't require me to install the .NET framework. I'm
>>actually a little confused as to why this issue keeps cropping up with IF
>>software. I have a fair variety of free, shareware, and commercial
>>software installed on this machine, and none of it has ever required me to
>>install this framework to run. Surely there is SOME way to package
>>software developed with .NET that is transparent to the user?
>
>
> You would think so, but unfortunately, there is no way that I know of. You
> can't distribute a dll like you could with VB6. Java has a similar problem,
> albeit the package is a lot smaller.
>
>

I thought it was possible to in effect compile the Java runtime into the
executable, so that the user never even has to realize it was written in
Java. I'm no Java expert, though... Borland C++ Builder is the only
Windows programming environment I use. (Well, unless you count Inform,
which I am learning...)

Even if the above is not possible, the Java run-time is a much smaller
download, and most people have it installed anyway because it is fairly
commonly used for web apps. Plus, it's multi-platform. If you are
determined not to use Inform or TADs, you might want to consider whether
your project is adaptable to Java. From what I understand, Java is
quite easy to pick up if you already know C / C++.

Jimmy

 

[icEDragon]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

>> I am interested to know, as an IF player, if you (well, in this case the
>> IF
>> Usenet-based portion of players) have had success installing the .Net
>> Framework and running applications on it (excluding the WINE emulator).
>> If
>> no, the next question is: would you consider installing it to play an IF
>> game? If not, what is something that the IF author could do to make it
>> easier for you to run?*
>
>> * pre-empt obligatory lectures on Z-code/Inform
>
>>KILL THE FLY WITH THE AXE
> Which axe do you mean, the teensy axe or the atomic-powered supersonic
> planet-smashing axe?
>
>>TEENSY
> The fly expires.

>ATOMIC

 

[icEDragon]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Thanks for the replies.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

I think this is the wrong audience for these questions. The people that
will respond are generally against .NET and/or don't know enough about
it to really comment. And if you change the topic to Mono
(cross-platform version of .NET), they will still not respond.

If you want to create something in .NET and create something
interesting, playable, and well-tested...then it's likely that people
will play it.

For anyone with Windows XP, .NET is usually already there. Anyone that
complains about installing the .NET Framework probably doesn't realize
that all it is is a bunch of dormant managed code API's that have no
executables and don't have any impact on the base OS at all.

Of course if your worried about losing 25mb of disk space, I
understand. Otherwise it's really not that big of a deal. The same
people will download x MP3's and not see anything wrong with the disk
space they use so to me, that's a specious argument.

This is really an OS religious issue. There is nothing fundamentally
wrong or dangerous in using or installing the .NET Framework. It's no
different than the Java runtime. Just a wee (by todays standards) bit
bigger.

You make a .NET game, I will be the first to play it.

See Also: http://www.ifsharp.org

David C.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <1112376316.309388.127610@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
ChicagoDave <david.cornelson@gmail.com> wrote:
>I think this is the wrong audience for these questions. The people that
>will respond are generally against .NET and/or don't know enough about
>it to really comment. And if you change the topic to Mono
>(cross-platform version of .NET), they will still not respond.
>
Does Mono work reliably?

As far as being generally against .NET goes, what does it matter?
There's still the idea of downloading 20 MB or so to play one game.

>If you want to create something in .NET and create something
>interesting, playable, and well-tested...then it's likely that people
>will play it.
>
Maybe. In this community, many fewer than would play it if it were
in zcode or one of the TADS VMs.

Now, let me tell you another reason why I'm prejudiced against native-
code games.

Malware.

No version of Windows has decent security, so it's easy to write
programs that will mess up my computer big-time. This means that
I'm fussy about the free stuff I download and run. If it's not
from someplace I have reason to trust, I simply don't.

I have no a priori reason to trust you. I'm not saying that you
aren't scrupulous and honest, I'm saying I have no current reason
to believe you are.

>For anyone with Windows XP, .NET is usually already there. Anyone that
>complains about installing the .NET Framework probably doesn't realize
>that all it is is a bunch of dormant managed code API's that have no
>executables and don't have any impact on the base OS at all.
>
So you say. I am a lot less sanguine about installing Microsoft
software and its effects on my OS.

>Of course if your worried about losing 25mb of disk space, I
>understand. Otherwise it's really not that big of a deal. The same
>people will download x MP3's and not see anything wrong with the disk
>space they use so to me, that's a specious argument.
>
It's a cost-benefit thing. (Okay, I've never downloaded any MP3s,
so I may not be the best person to comment on this.) You're talking
about dozens of MB with no immediate purpose other than to play
one game. With 25 MB of MP3s, you presumably can listen to an awful
lot of songs. Moreover, downloading MP3s is sort of an incremental
thing, so that you can download 1 MB and enjoy that, then download
more.

>This is really an OS religious issue. There is nothing fundamentally
>wrong or dangerous in using or installing the .NET Framework. It's no
>different than the Java runtime. Just a wee (by todays standards) bit
>bigger.
>
As long as it's a separate step that somebody has to do in order to
play a game, it is a big deal.

Moreover, while .NET might not be dangerous, playing games that
require it is. One advantage of something like Inform and TADS
and Hugo and the like is that it's either very difficult (TADS 2)
or effectively impossible (zcode) to write any sort of malware
with it. I am willing to do it for the Comp games, since Stephen
goes to considerable lengths to screen them, but I'm not going to
download and play a game I don't trust. In my analysis, it's too
big a risk for too small a benefit.

--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
david@thornley.net | If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-

 

[icEDragon]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"ChicagoDave" <david.cornelson@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1112376316.309388.127610@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>I think this is the wrong audience for these questions. The people that
> will respond are generally against .NET and/or don't know enough about
> it to really comment. And if you change the topic to Mono
> (cross-platform version of .NET), they will still not respond.

It is useful in that it confirms what I saw from the IFComp 2004 and
provides some background. The scores for my game in the IFComp were
somewhat bimodal. Overall, about three times the number of people played
the average Z-code games as opposed to the Windows-only games. While it
might be feasible to support OSX, PocketPC and Palm by porting, personally
I'm not interested in producing anything for any Linux variant. Mono could
work on most of these platforms, which is good.

> If you want to create something in .NET and create something
> interesting, playable, and well-tested...then it's likely that people
> will play it.
> For anyone with Windows XP, .NET is usually already there. Anyone that
> complains about installing the .NET Framework probably doesn't realize
> that all it is is a bunch of dormant managed code API's that have no
> executables and don't have any impact on the base OS at all.

Absolutely true. The Java framework and the .Net framework have much in
common in this respect.

> Of course if your worried about losing 25mb of disk space, I
> understand. Otherwise it's really not that big of a deal. The same
> people will download x MP3's and not see anything wrong with the disk
> space they use so to me, that's a specious argument.
>
> This is really an OS religious issue. There is nothing fundamentally
> wrong or dangerous in using or installing the .NET Framework. It's no
> different than the Java runtime. Just a wee (by todays standards) bit
> bigger.

..Net supports similar security features as well. Again, they aren't very
different.

> You make a .NET game, I will be the first to play it.

Done. See IFComp 2004 "Getting Back To Sleep". The reason for this
thread was to ponder the next competition.

> See Also: http://www.ifsharp.org
>
> David C.
>

 

[icEDragon]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

> No version of Windows has decent security, so it's easy to write
> programs that will mess up my computer big-time. This means that
> I'm fussy about the free stuff I download and run. If it's not
> from someplace I have reason to trust, I simply don't.

This is true of any of the current operating systems. There isn't anything
Windows-specific here. Malware runs on the Mac, Unix, BeOS, etc etc. All
of these operating systems support user-level accounts, and even guest
accounts. You are right to be fussy, there are many packages that silently
install spyware these days.

>>This is really an OS religious issue. There is nothing fundamentally
>>wrong or dangerous in using or installing the .NET Framework. It's no
>>different than the Java runtime. Just a wee (by todays standards) bit
>>bigger.
>>
> As long as it's a separate step that somebody has to do in order to
> play a game, it is a big deal.

The user inconvenience of installing something like this is apparently quite
large. But the question remains; consider the Java package. It is fairly
large, is required to run Java apps and must be downloaded specifically to
run them. Would you download the Java system to play an IF game? What is
the logical gap between Hugo and Java?

> Moreover, while .NET might not be dangerous, playing games that
> require it is. One advantage of something like Inform and TADS
> and Hugo and the like is that it's either very difficult (TADS 2)
> or effectively impossible (zcode) to write any sort of malware
> with it. I am willing to do it for the Comp games, since Stephen
> goes to considerable lengths to screen them, but I'm not going to
> download and play a game I don't trust. In my analysis, it's too
> big a risk for too small a benefit.

Then you're trusting the author of TADS, or Frotz, or whatever host you
choose to not have written any malware into it. On top of that, it has
already been shown that some of these tools had/have exploitable buffer
overruns in them which would allow you to execute anything on that machine.
By the same token, if enough time were spent, I'm sure you could find holes
in nearly every software package out there. Obviously it is more likely
with a native x86 program, since there is little security. But Java and
..Net support closed "sandbox" environments where you can prevent changes
outside the security zone, which should offer some level of safety.

 

[samwyse]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

On or about 4/2/2005 2:44 AM, Icedragon did proclaim:
> Then you're trusting the author of TADS, or Frotz, or whatever host you
> choose to not have written any malware into it. On top of that, it has
> already been shown that some of these tools had/have exploitable buffer
> overruns in them which would allow you to execute anything on that machine.

I'm sorry, but which versions of these tools have had exploitable buffer
overruns? The Z-machine VMs that I've seens are sandboxed better than
Java or .NET could ever dream of being, and I'd imagine that the same is
true of the others. Some TADS interpreters could let the game call
compiled C code (external functions), but this feature was rarely useful
and has been removed.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

ChicagoDave wrote:
> This is really an OS religious issue. There is nothing fundamentally
> wrong or dangerous in using or installing the .NET Framework.

You see, I don't see this as an ideological issue at all: to me it's
purely a practical issue. Developers may like things like .NET, Mono
and Java as it makes their lives easier, but too often they don't
consider whether it makes the user's life easier.

As a user, I don't care if the game was written with .NET, or Java,
or C, or PL/1, or whatever - I just want it to run, preferably in a
way I'm used to. If I have to poke around different websites to
install stuff from Microsoft or Sun, you (as a developer) have just
made my life harder, and I'll be very likely to give up, especially
if there are lots of other games I could be playing that won't give
me this headache.

Of course, as you say, if the game is good enough, and people whose
opinion I respect enthuse about it, I'll go make the effort. But the
chances of me doing that on the off chance the game is good are low.

David