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Bolivia By Night - potential xyzzy game of the year?

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May 9, 2005 1:35:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

niz <niz@infidel.freeserve.co.uk> skrev og sendte i artikkel
<1115649844.030337.315900@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> til
rec.games.int-fiction:

"maybe its just me, as it hasn't been getting glowing reviews, but to
me
BBN has all the ingredients required to win the award next year,
especially if the author can release a post-comp bugfixed version of
the game."

Personally, I was both relieved and pleasently surprised that none of
the games featured amnesiac wizards. IF has had more than its fair
share of clichés and vapidity, and both _Bolivia By Night_ and _Whom
the Telling Changed_ felt like a cold breeze in the sweltering desert
of non-descript fantasy.

Cheers to Aaron and Aidan!
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 9:36:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"jens" <jenschristofferson@danishemail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:8dd42ef5.0505090835.5feb935e@posting.google.com...
> niz <niz@infidel.freeserve.co.uk> skrev og sendte i artikkel
> <1115649844.030337.315900@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> til
> rec.games.int-fiction:
>
> "maybe its just me, as it hasn't been getting glowing reviews, but to
> me
> BBN has all the ingredients required to win the award next year,
> especially if the author can release a post-comp bugfixed version of
> the game."
>
> Personally, I was both relieved and pleasently surprised that none of
> the games featured amnesiac wizards. IF has had more than its fair
> share of clichés and vapidity, and both _Bolivia By Night_ and _Whom
> the Telling Changed_ felt like a cold breeze in the sweltering desert
> of non-descript fantasy.
>
> Cheers to Aaron and Aidan!

The most difficult thing to achieve in fiction is suspension of disbelief.
Fantasy requires no suspension oif disbelief because no belief is required.
"Why must fiction suspend disbelief", you ask? Because fiction must create
belief. Belief that its characters inhabit a universe that, however
different from ours, could be contiguous with the reality that the reader
inhabits. Fantasy just can't do this. If it does, by definition, it isn't
fantasy. Thus the fantasy writer can skip the hard part of creative writing
and move on to the cutesy-cutesy stuff: wizards with funny hats and cudley
hobbits.

This, I think, is what makes fantasy so popular and attractive to IF
writers; they can concentrate on puzzles instead of wasting time on story
and characters and still retain the pretence that they are fiddling with
literature.
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 9:36:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <ccNfe.136958$dP1.482433@newsc.telia.net>,
mtl <mateu@utfors.dk> wrote:
>
>The most difficult thing to achieve in fiction is suspension of disbelief.
>Fantasy requires no suspension oif disbelief because no belief is required.

Sniff, Sniff. Definitely species Trollus Useneticus. Anyone
recognize this variety?
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.
Related resources
May 10, 2005 11:24:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

> inhabits. Fantasy just can't do this. If it does, by definition, it isn't
> fantasy. Thus the fantasy writer can skip the hard part of creative writing
> and move on to the cutesy-cutesy stuff: wizards with funny hats and cudley
> hobbits.
>
> This, I think, is what makes fantasy so popular and attractive to IF
> writers; they can concentrate on puzzles instead of wasting time on story
> and characters and still retain the pretence that they are fiddling with
> literature.

Much of IF is trash, admittedly, but to throw out the whole genre of
fantasy because of it is classic throwing out the baby with the bath
water. The literary giants and anyone who has written a good fantasy
story are just laughing. Fantasy has to be even more realistic and have
even more internal consistency to overcome the readership's lack of
familiarity with the world. It's too easy to pass off everything as
"magic".


-- Poster


"I seek the social ownership of property, the abolition of the
propertied class, and the sole control of those who produce wealth.
Communism is the goal." -- Roger Baldwin, founder of the ACLU.
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 12:28:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Matthew i disagree with you for this specific statement.

>The most difficult thing to achieve in fiction is suspension of
disbelief.
>Fantasy requires no suspension oif disbelief because no belief is
required.

Don't know if a troll is speaking here, but i agree with it.
Rob
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 2:40:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <1115825320.858490.80720@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
rgrassi <rgrassi1970@gmail.com> wrote:
>Matthew i disagree with you for this specific statement.
>
>>The most difficult thing to achieve in fiction is suspension of
>disbelief.
>>Fantasy requires no suspension oif disbelief because no belief is
>required.
>
>Don't know if a troll is speaking here, but i agree with it.

There's two statements there. The first statement is debatable. The
second statement is nonsense. Suspension of disbelief is not the same
as belief.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 3:54:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

> In article <1115825320.858490.80720@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> rgrassi <rgrassi1970@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Matthew i disagree with you for this specific statement.
> >
> >>The most difficult thing to achieve in fiction is suspension of
> >disbelief.
> >>Fantasy requires no suspension oif disbelief because no belief is
> >required.
> >
> >Don't know if a troll is speaking here, but i agree with it.
>
> There's two statements there.

Mercy, you're sharp.

> The first statement is debatable.

Agreed. Still, it's a pretty good candidate.

> The second statement is nonsense.

Nonsense eludes verification. You claim the statement is false. You
can't have the cake and eat it.

> Suspension of disbelief is not the same
> as belief.

Suspension of disbelief aims to establish believability. Is that
phrasing more to your liking, Mr. Nitpicker?
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 5:35:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Poster <poster!nospam!@aurora.cotse.net> wrote in message news:<sfqdnbz6A8Mq3xzfRVn-uQ@giganews.com>...
> > inhabits. Fantasy just can't do this. If it does, by definition, it isn't
> > fantasy. Thus the fantasy writer can skip the hard part of creative writing
> > and move on to the cutesy-cutesy stuff: wizards with funny hats and cudley
> > hobbits.
> >
> > This, I think, is what makes fantasy so popular and attractive to IF
> > writers; they can concentrate on puzzles instead of wasting time on story
> > and characters and still retain the pretence that they are fiddling with
> > literature.
>
> Much of IF is trash, admittedly, but to throw out the whole genre of
> fantasy because of it is classic throwing out the baby with the bath
> water. The literary giants and anyone who has written a good fantasy
> story are just laughing. Fantasy has to be even more realistic and have
> even more internal consistency to overcome the readership's lack of
> familiarity with the world. It's too easy to pass off everything as
> "magic".

In my English Lit seminar the don asked what literary genres we liked
and disliked the most. We were each given a piece of paper to write
on. Out of the 14 participants not one chose fantasy as their
favourite, and 3 (including me) chose it as their least favourite.
Snobbery? Possibly.

Here's what I think : perhaps as many 80% of all the people who are
into IF today are Americans. Superheros and fantasy are huge in the
States , much less so in Europe ( with the exception of Scandinavia ,
which is basically a cultural colony of America ). If it's got spandex
or magic wands the yanks and Swedes are gonna gobble it up like there
was no tomorrow , and the rest of us are going to sit there and wonder
"What planet are these people from?"
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 4:49:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <1bde3740.0505111235.417db7ad@posting.google.com>,
Graham Grant <ggrant@europe.com> wrote:
>Superheros and fantasy are huge in the
>States , much less so in Europe ( with the exception of Scandinavia ,
>which is basically a cultural colony of America ).

*blink* *blink*

Oh dear. There's a troll huddling against the wind on his lonely
windswept rock in the North Sea who's going to have to sacrifice you to
his sodomitical sheep for saying that, I'm afraid.

Adam
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 6:24:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Hi,

> There's two statements there.

Yes. Two statemens, my fault.

> The first statement is debatable.

It it's debatable why you assign 'trollish' status?

> The second statement is nonsense.

Why?
It just says: Fantasy does not include a 'strictu sensu' belief.
Consequently, no 'disbelief' is necessary and even less suspension of
it.
Rob
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 11:38:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

On Thu, 12 May 2005 00:49:32 +0000 (UTC), adam@fsf.net (Adam Thornton)
wrote:

>In article <1bde3740.0505111235.417db7ad@posting.google.com>,
>Graham Grant <ggrant@europe.com> wrote:
>>Superheros and fantasy are huge in the
>>States , much less so in Europe ( with the exception of Scandinavia ,
>>which is basically a cultural colony of America ).
>
>*blink* *blink*
>
>Oh dear. There's a troll huddling against the wind on his lonely
>windswept rock in the North Sea who's going to have to sacrifice you to
>his sodomitical sheep for saying that, I'm afraid.
>
>Adam

I thought Graham Grant was Jacek as well.
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 6:25:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <1115889866.530418.212860@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
rgrassi <rgrassi1970@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>> There's two statements there.
>
>Yes. Two statemens, my fault.
>
>> The first statement is debatable.
>
>It it's debatable why you assign 'trollish' status?

The whole post was a troll.

>> The second statement is nonsense.
>
>Why?
>It just says: Fantasy does not include a 'strictu sensu' belief.
>Consequently, no 'disbelief' is necessary and even less suspension of
>it.

Which is not what the original statement said; further, the
"conequence" doesn't follow from either the original or the amended
statement.

Creation of "suspension of disbelief" is an important part of fantasy
writing. This does not mean that the fantasy writer has to convince
the reader that his story is literally true or even real-world
possible.

--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 8:16:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Here, rgrassi <rgrassi1970@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The first statement is debatable.
>
> It it's debatable why you assign 'trollish' status?

Rob, you're arguing with Jacek. He has no reason to argue logically.
He's just messing with you.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
I'm still thinking about what to put in this space.
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 9:43:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <a02681pn3203atjsmhhnsdhc739ko131es@4ax.com>,
Boluc Papuccuoglu <bolucPERIODpapuccuoglu@REMOVETHISaknet.com.tr> wrote:
>On Thu, 12 May 2005 00:49:32 +0000 (UTC), adam@fsf.net (Adam Thornton)
>wrote:
>>In article <1bde3740.0505111235.417db7ad@posting.google.com>,
>>Graham Grant <ggrant@europe.com> wrote:
[...]
>>Oh dear. There's a troll huddling against the wind on his lonely
>>windswept rock in the North Sea who's going to have to sacrifice you to
>>his sodomitical sheep for saying that, I'm afraid.
>I thought Graham Grant was Jacek as well.

Well, then. Self-sacrifice. How masturbatorily noble.

Or something.

Adam
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 10:11:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"Adam Thornton"

> Oh dear. There's a troll huddling against the wind on his lonely
> windswept rock in the North Sea who's going to have to sacrifice you to
> his sodomitical sheep for saying that, I'm afraid.


Adam,

The tide is coming in high and so blue it seems ink. A little sheep has been
frolicking on the beach ever since my second cup of Earl Grey. So white and
pure and innocent I wish I could scribble obscenities on its fluffy tail
end! But my days of frolicking are over. The disease has entered its final
stages: today I found my ears lying neatly on the pillow; they had wilted
off in my sleep.

Browsing the thread I see the posse has increased in number. I don't care
about the wannabies; there are always non-entities hoping to improve their
standing by kicking the underdog. But it does hurt to see people I respect,
like Plotkin and Russotto, drag my name in the dirt. Will you grant me a
last favour? Will you exert your considerable influence and try to persuade
them of my innocence?

The sheep is gone, perhaps swept away by the tide. I too will be departing
soon. I would hate to leave with a soiled name.


Jacek Pudlo, Castle Pudelstein, Gottland
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 11:14:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <i%Mge.24109$d5.171948@newsb.telia.net>,
Jacek Pudlo <jacek@jacek.com> wrote:
>"Adam Thornton"
>But it does hurt to see people I respect,
>like Plotkin and Russotto, drag my name in the dirt. Will you grant me a
>last favour? Will you exert your considerable influence and try to persuade
>them of my innocence?

Of course, my dear departing comrade:

I exert *all* my *considerable* influence in this persuasive effort:

Mssrs. Plotkin and Russotto: please, please, please believe that Jacek is
*innocent*. Innocent of what *in particular* we know not, but how could
we disbelieve?

Ave atque vale!

Adam
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 4:44:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Hi,

> Creation of "suspension of disbelief" is an important part of fantasy

> writing. This does not mean that the fantasy writer has to convince
> the reader that his story is literally true or even real-world
> possible.

This raises an interesting question about the concept 'suspension of
disbelief'.
I imagine that there are many posts for that on this NG. I'll search
for it
and study them. Maybe i can write down an article for Terra d'IF.
Rob
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 6:38:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) skrev i
meddelandet:<QqSdnR_0acDDuh_fRVn-qw@speakeasy.net>...
> In article <1115825320.858490.80720@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> rgrassi <rgrassi1970@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Matthew i disagree with you for this specific statement.
> >
> >>The most difficult thing to achieve in fiction is suspension of
> >disbelief.
> >>Fantasy requires no suspension oif disbelief because no belief is
> >required.
> >
> >Don't know if a troll is speaking here, but i agree with it.
>
> There's two statements there. The first statement is debatable. The
> second statement is nonsense. Suspension of disbelief is not the same
> as belief.

Maybe my English isn't fluent enough, but I think "suspension of
disbelief" implies "could have happened, could be happening now, or
could possibly happen sometime in the future". That is how I interpret
it.

Historical novels, fiction set in a contemporary realworld setting and
sci fi can and should aspire to achieve "suspension of disbelief".
Fairy tales, superhero comics, fantasy and surrealism can not and
should not aspire to achieve "suspension of disbelief". That doesn't
mean that these genres are less immersive, it just means that they are
not asking you to believe in the possibility of the worlds they
create.

In practice this means that Tolkien winks at you whispering "This
isn't _really_ real" while Hemingway wants you to believe that the
things he is describing _could_ have happened.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 8:23:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Here, Adam Thornton <adam@fsf.net> wrote:
>
> Well, I'm halfway there. Now if only Zarf will believe that Jacek is
> innocent, then I will have discharged my obligation to the dying, and
> Jacek's ghost will not torment me on my balcony by exposing his
> buttocks.

Ghost? I give you leave to doubt your senses. A slight disorder of the
antlers makes them cheats. He may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot
of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
I'm still thinking about what to put in this space.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 3:31:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"Peter Rikardson" <trumgotist@bigfoot.com> wrote in
news:87b5c055.0505130138.4e6c7107@posting.google.com...

Please note that it wasn't me, but rather a troll that posted using a
name that's similar to mine. Probably to make you think I posted that.

Rikard
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 3:47:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"Peter Rikardson" <trumgotist@bigfoot.com> skrev i melding
news:87b5c055.0505130138.4e6c7107@posting.google.com...
> russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) skrev i
> meddelandet:<QqSdnR_0acDDuh_fRVn-qw@speakeasy.net>...
>> In article <1115825320.858490.80720@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>> rgrassi <rgrassi1970@gmail.com> wrote:

> Maybe my English isn't fluent enough, but I think "suspension of
> disbelief" implies "could have happened, could be happening now, or
> could possibly happen sometime in the future". That is how I interpret
> it.

I think you are wrong. It means more that the reader is trying to sort of
believe so as to enjoy the thing more, and overlook things that seem fake.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief . The Blair Witch
Project is scarier because it seems like a real documantary even if you know
it is not.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 4:39:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <87b5c055.0505130138.4e6c7107@posting.google.com>,
Peter Rikardson <trumgotist@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) skrev i
>meddelandet:<QqSdnR_0acDDuh_fRVn-qw@speakeasy.net>...
>> In article <1115825320.858490.80720@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>> rgrassi <rgrassi1970@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Matthew i disagree with you for this specific statement.
>> >
>> >>The most difficult thing to achieve in fiction is suspension of
>> >disbelief.
>> >>Fantasy requires no suspension oif disbelief because no belief is
>> >required.
>> >
>> >Don't know if a troll is speaking here, but i agree with it.
>>
>> There's two statements there. The first statement is debatable. The
>> second statement is nonsense. Suspension of disbelief is not the same
>> as belief.
>
>Maybe my English isn't fluent enough, but I think "suspension of
>disbelief" implies "could have happened, could be happening now, or
>could possibly happen sometime in the future". That is how I interpret
>it.

That's not what it means, and it probably doesn't depend on your
English. It's a literary term of art; it means the reader accepts and
becomes immersed in the world of the story _despite_ the reasons it
should be rejected.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 5:35:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

mtl wrote:
> "jens" <jenschristofferson@danishemail.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:8dd42ef5.0505090835.5feb935e@posting.google.com...
>
>>niz <niz@infidel.freeserve.co.uk> skrev og sendte i artikkel
>><1115649844.030337.315900@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> til
>>rec.games.int-fiction:
>>
>>"maybe its just me, as it hasn't been getting glowing reviews, but to
>>me
>>BBN has all the ingredients required to win the award next year,
>>especially if the author can release a post-comp bugfixed version of
>>the game."
>>
>>Personally, I was both relieved and pleasently surprised that none of
>>the games featured amnesiac wizards. IF has had more than its fair
>>share of clichés and vapidity, and both _Bolivia By Night_ and _Whom
>>the Telling Changed_ felt like a cold breeze in the sweltering desert
>>of non-descript fantasy.
>>
>>Cheers to Aaron and Aidan!
>
>
> The most difficult thing to achieve in fiction is suspension of disbelief.
> Fantasy requires no suspension oif disbelief because no belief is required.
> "Why must fiction suspend disbelief", you ask? Because fiction must create
> belief. Belief that its characters inhabit a universe that, however
> different from ours, could be contiguous with the reality that the reader
> inhabits. Fantasy just can't do this. If it does, by definition, it isn't
> fantasy. Thus the fantasy writer can skip the hard part of creative writing
> and move on to the cutesy-cutesy stuff: wizards with funny hats and cudley
> hobbits.
>
> This, I think, is what makes fantasy so popular and attractive to IF
> writers; they can concentrate on puzzles instead of wasting time on story
> and characters and still retain the pretence that they are fiddling with
> literature.

As C. S. Lewis points out so devastatingly in "An Experiment in
Criticism", there is a certain sort of audience that hates fantasy
because they know it couldn't happen to them. In other words, fantasy is
the enemy of phantasy.

Unfortunately, the decline of science and rise of superstition since
Lewis's time means that a great many people who, 40 years ago, would
have stuck with "The Executioner" or "Love's Lurid Lust" can now gorge
themselves on "Elf Assassin" and "Forbidden Magick".

--
John W. Kennedy
"Never try to take over the international economy based on a radical
feminist agenda if you're not sure your leader isn't a transvestite."
-- David Misch: "She-Spies", "While You Were Out"
Anonymous
May 14, 2005 12:50:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <d61a3l$qtq$1@reader1.panix.com>,
Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@eblong.com> wrote:
>Ghost? I give you leave to doubt your senses. A slight disorder of the
>antlers makes them cheats. He may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot
>of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato.

Now that you mention it, there is a bit more of gravy than of _gravitas_
about this whole discussion. I'll just go wipe me antlers, then.

Adam
!