Babcock's copyright notice

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.mahjong (More info?)

Now this is actually connected to Mah-Jong, albeit peripherally:

Babcock's rules have a copyright notice that says "All rights
reserved, including the rights of translation into all foreign
languages, including the Scandinavian."

A bit of Googling shows that this formula was common in U.S. books
around 1900-1920. Does anybody here have any idea why the Scandinavian
languages are specifically mentioned? (And was Babcock ever translated
into a Scandinavian language?)

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.mahjong (More info?)

On 2004-08-25 11:10:27 +0200, Julian Bradfield <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk> said:

> Now this is actually connected to Mah-Jong, albeit peripherally:
>
> Babcock's rules have a copyright notice that says "All rights
> reserved, including the rights of translation into all foreign
> languages, including the Scandinavian."
>
> A bit of Googling shows that this formula was common in U.S. books
> around 1900-1920. Does anybody here have any idea why the Scandinavian
> languages are specifically mentioned? (And was Babcock ever translated
> into a Scandinavian language?)

Perhaps someone else knows the answers to your questions. I have just
something to add about copyrights (! see also thread Inquiry on
latest...) and Babcock. In The Netherlands, in 1924 mahjong sets were
sold by Perry & Co. The booklets that went with these sets, were
slightly different from Babcocks rulebook. Babcock brought the case
before the judge, claiming the mahjong rules were his intellectual
property, since he had studied many local rules in China and simplified
the game for the Western market.
Perry's lawyer, however, argued that Perry had also studied the rules
in China. He showed the judge a number of booklets about mahjong, none
of which were written by Babcock. Babcock lost the case.
This was the beginning of the end of the highdays of mahjong, since the
mahjong players got confused because their favorite game did not seem
to have unified rules.
(From: Het Groot Mahjong Boek, by Jelte Rep, Tirion Baarn, 2002, ISBN
9043903965)
--


|
|Martin Rep
|The Independent Internet Mahjong Newspaper
|Mahjong News:
|www.mahjongnews.com
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|www.riichi.tk
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|www.gouden-draak.nl

 

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Martin Rep <mrep@mahjongnews.com> wrote in message news:<412ca2b9$0$78749$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>...

>In The Netherlands, in 1924 mahjong sets were
> sold by Perry & Co. The booklets that went with these sets, were
> slightly different from Babcocks rulebook. Babcock brought the case
> before the judge, claiming the mahjong rules were his intellectual
> property, since he had studied many local rules in China and simplified
> the game for the Western market.
> Perry's lawyer, however, argued that Perry had also studied the rules
> in China. He showed the judge a number of booklets about mahjong, none
> of which were written by Babcock. Babcock lost the case.
> This was the beginning of the end of the highdays of mahjong, since the
> mahjong players got confused because their favorite game did not seem
> to have unified rules.
> (From: Het Groot Mahjong Boek, by Jelte Rep, Tirion Baarn, 2002, ISBN
> 9043903965)

Wonderful, Martin!

This must be the case in which Wilkinson was envolved!

Remember: In December 2002 - gasp! almost 2 years ago... - I posted
my first message to this newsgroup. I had just discovered a pamphlet
written in 1925 by Sir W.H. Wilkinson about mahjong in order to help
Babcock in a case in Holland (for the "Memorandum" was printed in
Amsterdam).

(See "Mahjong rules in... 1890" thread. If you type in Wilkinson and
select rec.games.mahjong group only you'll find it straight away.)

Do you have more details? Who was Perry? Was he a Dutchman?

Cheers,
Thierry

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.mahjong,dk.videnskab.jura (More info?)

Jesper Harder wrote:

> Julian Bradfield <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk> writes:
>
>
>>Babcock's rules have a copyright notice that says "All rights
>>reserved, including the rights of translation into all foreign
>>languages, including the Scandinavian."
>>
>>A bit of Googling shows that this formula was common in U.S. books
>>around 1900-1920. Does anybody here have any idea why the
>>Scandinavian languages are specifically mentioned?
>
>
> Interesting question -- I'm crossposting this to the Danish law
> newsgroup to see if anyone there knows.

Perhaps scandinavians didn´t felt that the *general* copyright notice
applied to them, unless their countries are specifically expressed ???

IANAL.

Best regards,
Martin Joergensen

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Home of Martin Jørgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk

 

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Jesper Harder <harder@myrealbox.com> writes:
> Julian Bradfield <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk> writes:

> > Babcock's rules have a copyright notice that says "All rights
> > reserved, including the rights of translation into all foreign
> > languages, including the Scandinavian."

> > A bit of Googling shows that this formula was common in U.S. books
> > around 1900-1920. Does anybody here have any idea why the
> > Scandinavian languages are specifically mentioned?

> Interesting question -- I'm crossposting this to the Danish law
> newsgroup to see if anyone there knows.

It does seem a bit strange, since (AFAIK, I don't have the old laws
at hand right now) copyrights of (most) US authors weren't recognized
in the Scandinavian countries until the world copyright convention
of 1952 anyway.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.mahjong (More info?)

On 25 Aug 2004 14:17:40 -0700, thierry.depaulis@freesbee.fr (Thierry
Depaulis) wrote:

>Do you have more details? Who was Perry? Was he a Dutchman?


Perry & Co was a large retailer in Holland. They sold/manufactured
board games and so on.
I think later on this firm specialized in sports articles, and
eventually became Perry Sports (www.perrysport.nl), which still is a
large retailer in this country.
You would like to know more about Mr. Perry himself? II'll do some
searching and will let you know.



|
|Martin Rep
|The Independent Internet Mahjong Newspaper
|Mahjong News:
|www.mahjongnews.com
|The Dutch Championship Riichi Mahjong:
|www.riichi.tk
|The Golden Dragon Hong Kong Mahjong Club:
|www.gouden-draak.nl

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.mahjong (More info?)

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:25:11 +0200, Martin Rep <mrep@mahjongnews.com>
wrote:

>You would like to know more about Mr. Perry himself? II'll do some
>searching and will let you know.


On http://www.perrysport.nl/Site/frames/frames.asp, I read that 'The
English American Warehouse Perry & Co.' was the first real department
store in The Netherlands. I started here in 1866. Perry introduced all
kinds of games that until then were not known in Holland, i.e. tric
trac, domino, mahjong, as well as tennis and table tennis. The website
claims that in Holland a tennis ball was called a 'perry ball'.
The Amsterdam department store was part of an international chain,
with stores in London, N York, Paris, Brussels, Frankfurt, St
Petersburg and Berlin.
In the 1960's the stores went on as Perry Sport. In Holland, I
suppose.

So far for the company. Apparently Mr. (?) Perry wasn't Dutch.
= to be continued =

|
|Martin Rep
|The Independent Internet Mahjong Newspaper
|Mahjong News:
|www.mahjongnews.com
|The Dutch Championship Riichi Mahjong:
|www.riichi.tk
|The Golden Dragon Hong Kong Mahjong Club:
|www.gouden-draak.nl

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.mahjong (More info?)

Martin Rep <mrep@mahjongnews.com> wrote in message news:<nc7si0h2iijdnclernnjov85lh4p4s63a3@4ax.com>...

> On http://www.perrysport.nl/Site/frames/frames.asp, I read that 'The
> English American Warehouse Perry & Co.' was the first real department
> store in The Netherlands. I started here in 1866. Perry introduced all
> kinds of games that until then were not known in Holland, i.e. tric
> trac, domino, mahjong, as well as tennis and table tennis. The website
> claims that in Holland a tennis ball was called a 'perry ball'.
> The Amsterdam department store was part of an international chain,
> with stores in London, N York, Paris, Brussels, Frankfurt, St
> Petersburg and Berlin.

Thank you Martin!

I am very surprised to hear that "triktrak en domino" "were not known
in Holland" before Perry introduced them... It cannot be so since
trictrac/backgammon in its many variants, including local ones, has
been known in Holland from the High Middle Ages, and, though certainly
later, dominoes were known there much before 1866.
However, it is possible that Perry & Co. did introduce mahjong to the
Netherlands.

I have spotted four game manuals that were published by Perry & Co. or
rather by "N.V. Trading Co. late Perry & Co.":

Roulette. Amsterdam : N.V. Trading Co. late Perry & Co., 1927

Ping pong : Perry's handleiding voor ping pong. Amsterdam : N.V.
Trading Co. late Perry & Co., 1929

Bridge Auction Contract. Amsterdam : Trading Co. late Perry, 1930

Reglement voor bezique. Uitgave : N.V. Trading Co. late Perry & Co.,
N.D.

On his site, Ryo Asami has a list of western mahjong titles
(http://www.asamiryo.jp/lib6.html) - though all are wrongly spelled! -
and one of them reads:
78 Perry & co. Mah jongg Perry & co. 1924

"Mah Jongg" is Babcock's own spelling, which he indeed trademarked in
many countries (including France), as early as 1923.
A Dutch translation of his book was released in 1924:
Babcock's spelregels voor mah-jongg : het spel der duizend wonderen /
[uit het Engels vert. door Biang Mee]. Amsterdam : The Continental
Mah-Jongg Sales Co., [1924]. 31 p.
3e Nederlandsche dr (1924); 1e uitg. ook 1924
(from the KB on-line catalogue)

So I imagine Babcock sued Perry & Co. (or their successor) for
copyright infringement. This is why Wilkinson was required to help the
company, claiming that ""Mah-Jongg" is, in my opinion, a coined term,
and is registrable as such…", and that all books were copied on
Babcock's." (1925 Memorandum).

According to you, the case was lost, but how can Perry's lawyer could
"argue that Perry had also studied the rules in China."?? It seems
Perry & Co. was a trading company (of English or American origin) not
a mahjong expert...

Cheers,
Thierry

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.mahjong (More info?)

On 2004-08-27 08:04:26 +0200, thierry.depaulis@freesbee.fr (Thierry
Depaulis) said:

> According to you, the case was lost, but how can Perry's lawyer could
> "argue that Perry had also studied the rules in China."?? It seems
> Perry & Co. was a trading company (of English or American origin) not
> a mahjong expert...

I assume (nb: assume) that were is written 'Perry' we are not
necessarily talking about a Mr. Perry. It is likely that they not only
traded, but also did research, in order to market new games. Perhaps
they had a mahjong expert on their payroll (^^)
--


|
|Martin Rep
|The Independent Internet Mahjong Newspaper
|Mahjong News:
|www.mahjongnews.com
|The Dutch Championship Riichi Mahjong:
|www.riichi.tk
|The Golden Dragon Hong Kong Mahjong Club:
|www.gouden-draak.nl