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Samurai skirmish question

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Anonymous
April 23, 2004 3:57:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

Hi folks,

We've played a 25mm 'samurai' skirmish game using Warhammer skirmish [with
WAB stats] and I was wondering how people found the LOTR 'battle game'
compared? Some-one's supposed to be running an Arthurian game at Salute
(IIRC) using the LOTR rules, and that got me pondering the question. I've
not played that system, but from searching through some newsgroups (eg
..Warhammer) they didn't seem to like the LOTR.

As a second question - anyone heard any news about the WAB supplement for
this period? The news site mentions a 2004 release date, with a game planned
in October.

Regards

Duncan
Anonymous
April 23, 2004 3:18:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

I prefer "the water margin".

--
Regards,
Andy O'Neill
www.wargamer.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/index.htm
or, for no javascript and a faster load...
www.wargamer.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sitemap.htm
"Duncan MacLeod" <dimacleod@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:40884dde$0$20404$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
> Hi folks,
>
> We've played a 25mm 'samurai' skirmish game using Warhammer skirmish [with
> WAB stats] and I was wondering how people found the LOTR 'battle game'
> compared? Some-one's supposed to be running an Arthurian game at Salute
> (IIRC) using the LOTR rules, and that got me pondering the question. I've
> not played that system, but from searching through some newsgroups (eg
> .Warhammer) they didn't seem to like the LOTR.
>
> As a second question - anyone heard any news about the WAB supplement for
> this period? The news site mentions a 2004 release date, with a game
planned
> in October.
>
> Regards
>
> Duncan
>
>
Anonymous
April 23, 2004 9:33:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

>I was wondering how people found the LOTR 'battle game'
>compared?

LOTR is great if you like your games to be controlled by the dice you roll.
I prefer to think during the games I play.

--
Justin Taylor
justin@hellou2.fsnet.co.uk
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Anonymous
April 24, 2004 1:08:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

"Justin Taylor" <justint@hellou2.*takethisout*fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c6bggk$49r$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >I was wondering how people found the LOTR 'battle game'
> >compared?
>
> LOTR is great if you like your games to be controlled by the dice you
roll.
> I prefer to think during the games I play.
>
> --
> Justin Taylor
> justin@hellou2.fsnet.co.uk
>

Is it that bad, Justin? I thought it'd be like Warhammer Skirmish, but some
different combat roles?

Duncan
Anonymous
April 24, 2004 1:12:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

Thanks for the recommendation, Andy. Is 'part 3' the most up-to-date one?
The last copy I found was (c)1999.

How many figures do you normally play with?

Duncan

"Andy O'Neill" <aon14nocannedmeat@lycos.co.uk> wrote in message
news:536ic.6407$X36.283@dentist.cableinet.net...
> I prefer "the water margin".
>
> --
> Regards,
> Andy O'Neill
> www.wargamer.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/index.htm
> or, for no javascript and a faster load...
> www.wargamer.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sitemap.htm
> "Duncan MacLeod" <dimacleod@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> news:40884dde$0$20404$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > We've played a 25mm 'samurai' skirmish game using Warhammer skirmish
[with
> > WAB stats] and I was wondering how people found the LOTR 'battle game'
> > compared? Some-one's supposed to be running an Arthurian game at Salute
> > (IIRC) using the LOTR rules, and that got me pondering the question.
I've
> > not played that system, but from searching through some newsgroups (eg
> > .Warhammer) they didn't seem to like the LOTR.
> >
> > As a second question - anyone heard any news about the WAB supplement
for
> > this period? The news site mentions a 2004 release date, with a game
> planned
> > in October.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Duncan
> >
> >
>
>
Anonymous
April 24, 2004 2:38:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

Well a quick idea of it - from my point of view of course.

At the start of each turn you roll for which side goes first. No modifiers
here except the side that went first in the last turn loses draws.

Each figure in combat rolls a die (or more depending on type), the side that
gets the highest die roll wins (with draws decided by fighting skill).
Reminds me of the old RISK game.

If you are hit you roll to survive (and this is where I see the only bit of
skill involved) if succeed but you are surrounded and cannot retreat, you
must re-roll for survival.

So the aim is to get as many figures into fighting as possible and try to
surround the enemy. Nice models though.

--
Justin Taylor
justin@hellou2.fsnet.co.uk
Anonymous
April 24, 2004 2:38:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

"Justin Taylor" <justint@hellou2.*takethisout*fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c6c2ed$2eg$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...

Just to offer an alternate view.

> At the start of each turn you roll for which side goes first. No modifiers
> here except the side that went first in the last turn loses draws.

Isn't this at the least a superior alternative to the predictable IGOUGO of
WHFB or WH40K?

> Each figure in combat rolls a die (or more depending on type), the side
> that gets the highest die roll wins (with draws decided by fighting
skill).

Unless you cleverly position more than one figure in contact with the same
opponent, or use spear or pike armed figures to "fight through" your own
figures, or you or your opponent use your limited number of "might" points
to adjust your die roll, or use your limited number of "fate" points to
avoid a wound, or if you are using a Hero he gets to roll more than one die
(and chose the best one). I don't know how much time you've spent
playtesting LOTR, but I know there are a lot of subtle aspects of the game
that most people don't get right away. I'm not trying to say you should
like it if you don't, but I do think in all fairness that there is more to
the game than you were portraying. :-)

> If you are hit you roll to survive (and this is where I see the only bit
of
> skill involved) if succeed but you are surrounded and cannot retreat,
> you must re-roll for survival.

So avoid getting surrounded! That's one part of the tactics of the game.
:-)

> So the aim is to get as many figures into fighting as possible and try to
> surround the enemy. Nice models though.

Again, that is *one* aspect of the game's strategy, but its not all there is
to it. We do agree about the nice models, at least. ;-)

I think (and it is just my opinion, of course) that LOTR has a superior game
mechanism to WHFB/WH40K, and it models Heroic combat in the format of a
skirmish game very well. I think its strengths would make it an idea basis
for a Samurai-style skirmish game.

Mike
Anonymous
April 24, 2004 3:15:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

"Justin Taylor" <justint@hellou2.*takethisout*fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c6c2ed$2eg$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Well a quick idea of it - from my point of view of course.
>
> At the start of each turn you roll for which side goes first. No modifiers
> here except the side that went first in the last turn loses draws.
>
> Each figure in combat rolls a die (or more depending on type), the side
that
> gets the highest die roll wins (with draws decided by fighting skill).
> Reminds me of the old RISK game.
>
> If you are hit you roll to survive (and this is where I see the only bit
of
> skill involved) if succeed but you are surrounded and cannot retreat, you
> must re-roll for survival.
>
> So the aim is to get as many figures into fighting as possible and try to
> surround the enemy. Nice models though.
>
> --
> Justin Taylor
> justin@hellou2.fsnet.co.uk

Suppose it doesn't really meet the idea of the heroic Samurai, then? I've
opened up the Water Margin that Andy suggested.

We're hoping to run a Samurai skirmish at SKELP later this year. Plenty of
time to try out some different rules.

Thanks for the feedback,

Duncan
Anonymous
April 24, 2004 3:43:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

Lots of Samurai skirmish sets out there. I am sure you will find something.
You might find my range of transfers useful:
http://www.3vwargames.co.uk/asian.htm

--
Justin Taylor
justin@hellou2.fsnet.co.uk
Anonymous
April 24, 2004 12:35:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

>Isn't this at the least a superior alternative to the predictable IGOUGO of
>WHFB or WH40K?

Not to my mind. If you are having a variable turn priority I would like to
see some sort of advantage given. Perhaps based on skill or mobility.

> I'm not trying to say you should
>like it if you don't, but I do think in all fairness that there is more to
>the game than you were portraying. :-)

I did say more figures give you more dice. You are welcome to post your own
version of playing. I gave my version.

>We do agree about the nice models, at least. ;-)

Well I did not want to be entirly negative. Lots of people like LOTR.

--
Justin Taylor
justin@hellou2.fsnet.co.uk
Anonymous
April 24, 2004 2:30:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

"Duncan MacLeod" <dimacleod@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:40884dde$0$20404$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
> Hi folks,
>
> We've played a 25mm 'samurai' skirmish game using Warhammer skirmish [with
> WAB stats] and I was wondering how people found the LOTR 'battle game'
> compared? Some-one's supposed to be running an Arthurian game at Salute
> (IIRC) using the LOTR rules, and that got me pondering the question. I've
> not played that system, but from searching through some newsgroups (eg
> .Warhammer) they didn't seem to like the LOTR.
>
You could try Mordheim? You can get Samurai/oriental warband data from the
Yahoo Maordheim group, and if you and your friends are used to WH mechanisms
it might suit you. I've written rules based on Necromunda for Wild West and
WWII, and was going to write a samurai set until I saw that the Mordheim
warbands made it a little redundant.

Malc
Anonymous
April 24, 2004 3:26:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

"Malcolm McDowall" <malcolm.mcdowall@lineone.net> wrote in message
news:408a338d_1@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com...
>
> "Duncan MacLeod" <dimacleod@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> news:40884dde$0$20404$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > We've played a 25mm 'samurai' skirmish game using Warhammer skirmish
[with
> > WAB stats] and I was wondering how people found the LOTR 'battle game'
> > compared? Some-one's supposed to be running an Arthurian game at Salute
> > (IIRC) using the LOTR rules, and that got me pondering the question.
I've
> > not played that system, but from searching through some newsgroups (eg
> > .Warhammer) they didn't seem to like the LOTR.
> >
> You could try Mordheim? You can get Samurai/oriental warband data from
the
> Yahoo Maordheim group, and if you and your friends are used to WH
mechanisms
> it might suit you. I've written rules based on Necromunda for Wild West
and
> WWII, and was going to write a samurai set until I saw that the Mordheim
> warbands made it a little redundant.
>
> Malc
>
It was actually the Mordheim version of WH Skirmish that we used, with the
WAB Ancient Battles stats. I had found some stats online, but the others
felt more comfortable with the WAB stats.

As to the rules, it seemed to lack that 'zing'. We had 3 players/warbands,
each of about 7 figs, and a buidling, some trees and fences. Maybe it wasn't
in the flavour of Mordheim? It could have been because we were more used to
WAB 600pt fights.

Duncan

Duncan
Anonymous
April 24, 2004 5:21:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

"Duncan MacLeod" <dimacleod@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:40897892$0$15752$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
> Thanks for the recommendation, Andy. Is 'part 3' the most up-to-date one?
> The last copy I found was (c)1999.
>
> How many figures do you normally play with?
>
> Duncan
>

> > I prefer "the water margin".


Relatively few I suppose.
We've used a variety of numbers per side.
With one player a side to several.
Couple of times with a horde of extras on one and 7 dead good samurai on the
other....
They're for the players want some odd abilities in there and some small
scale action.
Difficult to beat free as well.

If you wanted sneaking about with ninja then that rpg - "Bushido" iirc was
reasonable.

For larger games then there's a set I only played a couple of times.
I think I lent it someone and they didn't return it.
It's several japanese words ( which I think I always get wrong ) something
like ge shoku go.
Anyhow, I liked that one.

Tried killer katanas and serveral other sets I forget the name of at the mo.
Didn't like em much.

--
Regards,
Andy O'Neill
www.wargamer.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/index.htm
or, for no javascript and a faster load...
www.wargamer.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sitemap.htm
Anonymous
April 24, 2004 7:54:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

"Michael Dauben" <mdauben@charter.net> wrote in message
news:108jmurs4a7jd64@corp.supernews.com...
> "Justin Taylor" <justint@hellou2.*takethisout*fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
message
> news:c6c2ed$2eg$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> Just to offer an alternate view.
>
> > At the start of each turn you roll for which side goes first. No
modifiers
> > here except the side that went first in the last turn loses draws.
>
> Isn't this at the least a superior alternative to the predictable IGOUGO
of
> WHFB or WH40K?
>
> > Each figure in combat rolls a die (or more depending on type), the side
> > that gets the highest die roll wins (with draws decided by fighting
> skill).
>
> Unless you cleverly position more than one figure in contact with the same
> opponent, or use spear or pike armed figures to "fight through" your own
> figures, or you or your opponent use your limited number of "might" points
> to adjust your die roll, or use your limited number of "fate" points to
> avoid a wound, or if you are using a Hero he gets to roll more than one
die
> (and chose the best one). I don't know how much time you've spent
> playtesting LOTR, but I know there are a lot of subtle aspects of the game
> that most people don't get right away. I'm not trying to say you should
> like it if you don't, but I do think in all fairness that there is more to
> the game than you were portraying. :-)
>
> > If you are hit you roll to survive (and this is where I see the only bit
> of
> > skill involved) if succeed but you are surrounded and cannot retreat,
> > you must re-roll for survival.
>
> So avoid getting surrounded! That's one part of the tactics of the game.
> :-)
>
> > So the aim is to get as many figures into fighting as possible and try
to
> > surround the enemy. Nice models though.
>
> Again, that is *one* aspect of the game's strategy, but its not all there
is
> to it. We do agree about the nice models, at least. ;-)
>
> I think (and it is just my opinion, of course) that LOTR has a superior
game
> mechanism to WHFB/WH40K, and it models Heroic combat in the format of a
> skirmish game very well. I think its strengths would make it an idea basis
> for a Samurai-style skirmish game.
>
> Mike

Thanks for the hints, Mike.

Any advice on mapping over stats from WAB to LOTR?

As far as I can see:
Fighting = WS/BS
Strength = as WAB
Defence = Toughness
Attacks = as WAB
Wounds = as WAB
Courage = ?

I'm getting tempted to try it and Andy's suggestion of "The Water Margin"
out, just for comparrison.

I'm also aware that WAB is bringing out a Samurai-era supplement later on
this year. Lots of nice new troop types.

Duncan
Anonymous
April 24, 2004 7:54:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Duncan MacLeod" <dimacleod@dsl.pipex.com>
> Any advice on mapping over stats from WAB to LOTR?
>
> As far as I can see:
> Fighting = WS/BS
> Strength = as WAB
> Defence = Toughness
> Attacks = as WAB
> Wounds = as WAB
> Courage = ?

I don't actually have a copy of WAB, but assuming it uses the same game
mechanics as WHFB stripped of the magic, I would guess Leadership would be
the coresponding stat to Courage, as they are both used to test for running
away.

> I'm getting tempted to try it and Andy's suggestion of "The Water
> Margin" out, just for comparrison.

I don't think I have ever heard of those rules. Is there any info available
on the web about them?

> I'm also aware that WAB is bringing out a Samurai-era supplement later
> on this year. Lots of nice new troop types.

I thought that there was an existing samurai list for WAB, but most people
though it wasn't very good. If they are going to release a new one that
might be worth looking into. A couple of other suggestions, there is a
Yahoo! group dedicated to samurai wargaming:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Gekokujo/?yguid=182...

That you might want to check out. Also, there is a skirmish-scale game
called "Samurai Wars" put out by Old Glory/West Wind:

http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/samurai_wars.asp

I'll say up front that the rulebook is one of the worst written and edited
wargaming productions I have ever read, but if you can get past that the
system actually isn't too bad. If nothing else they make some nice 25mm
samurai figures. ;-)


Mike
Anonymous
April 24, 2004 8:44:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

"Michael Dauben" <mdauben@charter.net> wrote in message
news:108l1jvi4qg83c5@corp.supernews.com...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Duncan MacLeod" <dimacleod@dsl.pipex.com>
> > Any advice on mapping over stats from WAB to LOTR?
> >
> > As far as I can see:
> > Fighting = WS/BS
> > Strength = as WAB
> > Defence = Toughness
> > Attacks = as WAB
> > Wounds = as WAB
> > Courage = ?
>
> I don't actually have a copy of WAB, but assuming it uses the same game
> mechanics as WHFB stripped of the magic, I would guess Leadership would be
> the coresponding stat to Courage, as they are both used to test for
running
> away.
>
> > I'm getting tempted to try it and Andy's suggestion of "The Water
> > Margin" out, just for comparrison.
>
> I don't think I have ever heard of those rules. Is there any info
available
> on the web about them?
>
> > I'm also aware that WAB is bringing out a Samurai-era supplement later
> > on this year. Lots of nice new troop types.
>
> I thought that there was an existing samurai list for WAB, but most people
> though it wasn't very good. If they are going to release a new one that
> might be worth looking into. A couple of other suggestions, there is a
> Yahoo! group dedicated to samurai wargaming:
>
> http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Gekokujo/?yguid=182...
>
> That you might want to check out. Also, there is a skirmish-scale game
> called "Samurai Wars" put out by Old Glory/West Wind:
>
> http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/samurai_wars.asp
>
> I'll say up front that the rulebook is one of the worst written and edited
> wargaming productions I have ever read, but if you can get past that the
> system actually isn't too bad. If nothing else they make some nice 25mm
> samurai figures. ;-)
>
>
> Mike

LOL - like the comment about "Samurai Wars", it sums up a problem I have
with wargames rules. Frankly, I wouldn't buy figures sight unseen, but that
is what I have to do with wargames rules - or someone at the club does.
<mini-rant> I'd like a minimum standard set , so that I don't have to waste
time 'learning' new sets of rules. Everything should be clearly set out,
with playsheets that you can actually use. Money-back guarantees if
unsatisfied after playing three games maximium. </> I want to spend money on
figures, paints, brushes, books, terrain, buildings, etc - I don't want to
waste money and time buying lots of different rules, investing the time, etc
just to find that the writer didn't spend more than an evening hammering
them out, then playtested them with their drinking buddies.

Maybe Courage (average human 3) = Leadership (av hume 5), C = round_up
[LD/2] ?

As to The Water Margin, I got mine from
http://www.stephenirwin.u-net.com/games/wargames.html#d... when I was
looking around for rules. Never tried them though (yet). Printed them off
last night and they reminded me of EarthDawn's system with different dice
and open-ended roles.

Thanks for the heads-up, I'll drop by the YahooGroup later tonight.

I'm really going to have to stop procrastinating and get that d*mned essay
written, but this is far more interesting ;-)

Duncan
TQFE in progress
May 1, 2004 3:17:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

"Andy O'Neill" <aon14nocannedmeat@lycos.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8Zsic.2669$TK6.186@dentist.cableinet.net...
> "Duncan MacLeod" <dimacleod@dsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
> news:40897892$0$15752$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
> > Thanks for the recommendation, Andy. Is 'part 3' the most up-to-date
one?
> > The last copy I found was (c)1999.
> >
> > How many figures do you normally play with?
> >
> > Duncan
> >
>
> > > I prefer "the water margin".
>
>
> Relatively few I suppose.
> We've used a variety of numbers per side.
> With one player a side to several.
> Couple of times with a horde of extras on one and 7 dead good samurai on
the
> other....
> They're for the players want some odd abilities in there and some small
> scale action.
> Difficult to beat free as well.
>
> If you wanted sneaking about with ninja then that rpg - "Bushido" iirc
was
> reasonable.
>
> For larger games then there's a set I only played a couple of times.
> I think I lent it someone and they didn't return it.
> It's several japanese words ( which I think I always get wrong ) something
> like ge shoku go.
> Anyhow, I liked that one.
>
> Tried killer katanas and serveral other sets I forget the name of at the
mo.
> Didn't like em much.
>
Years ago we used to do it in 54mm scale (mainly those tamiya figures but
others as well). we used a modified version of the western skirmish rules.
It worked very well (well except for the time I got my chain weapon hooked
on a bush at just the wrong moment!). I might still have the rules
somewhere. I could look them up.
!