Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

Outsourcing Palm support to India

Last response: in Cell Phones & Smartphones
Share
September 24, 2004 1:03:25 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

I believe that this topic should be addressed by this newsgroup.

A lot of people think Palm's tech support is horrible. Fine I agree
with that. But then there are a few extra who further articulate that
it's because Palm's support was recently outsourced to India. They say
that the people there have funny accents that they do not understand,
that they're unknowledgeable about the products, etc.

I just honestly think that Americans have their own
president/government to blame, George W. Bush for allowing American
workers to be laid off, and having their jobs shipped overseas in
outsourcing. The countries who accept outsourcing aren't at fault, and
merely just accepted the U.S.' offer for jobs.

Also, it is just plain racist to assume that the Indians are
incompetant just because they may lack a knowledge in Palm products.
FYI, Palm's support even based here in the United States didn't know
about their own products! I met with a PalmOne salesperson once, (a
middle aged caucasion lady) trying to sell me a Tungsten T when it
first came out. I told her the color screen was better than my Palm
III, and she was like, what model is that? I didn't buy the T that
day. In any case, the company is usually to blame if tech support
lacks knowledge in the product, whether domestic or abroad.

Another thing: Accents hard to understand are merely because you
haven't been exposed to accents like that before. It's something you
get used to. But I can imagine all sorts of Americans who live in
small white middle class towns speaking southern accents who have
never seen foreigners in their life, and haven't heard one before. To
them, any foreign accent is incomprehendible. But if you live in a
city, you're used to seeing diversity and can understand foreign
accents better. I think this point should be explored more before
people criticise

In case anyone was wondering, I'm not from India. I'm from Canada, in
which I seriously believe Canadians are more open minded immigration
and ethnic wise, and I'm getting sick of people complaining about
foreigners. Thanks for reading my rant.
Anonymous
September 24, 2004 1:11:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"joeengineer" <joeengineer@cox.net> wrote in message
news:exN4d.43$gm.33@okepread07...
> I am not a fan of Bush but this statement is just plain stupid. Like we
> didn't have outsourcing before Bush came along? What's the number one
> reason for outsourcing??? Duh, the high cost of an employee in the U.S.
due
> to high taxes.

If this were true, Swedes would be the richest people on Earth because they
are taxed so much. :)  American employee costs are high because 1)
Americans get paid a lot of money to do given work relative to the wages
paid in other countries - this is primarily due to the wealth of the US and
the efficiency of its employees; 2) US employers have to provide health
insurance to be competitive in hiring skilled employees, and this adds a lot
of cost. I don't know how India works in the latter department, though. I
know Canada has been getting a lot of professional jobs because employers
don't have to directly pay for health care costs and the wages are slightly
lower.

We all want products cheap. We could have PalmOne support in Seattle if we
wanted to pay $20 more per PDA. We don't want to pay $20 more. We want $40
DVD players and $35 cell phones and $99 300-gig hard drives, so we have to
accept that manufacturers have to do whatever they can to cut costs to be
able to attain that pricepoint.

Jim
Anonymous
September 24, 2004 10:05:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Sceptre wrote:
> Also, it is just plain racist to assume that the Indians are
> incompetant just because they may lack a knowledge in Palm products.

If their job is to support Palm products and they don't have
the knowledge about Palm products necessary to do that, then
yes, they are incompetent.

> FYI, Palm's support even based here in the United States didn't know
> about their own products!

Then they're incompetent too.

> Another thing: Accents hard to understand are merely because you
> haven't been exposed to accents like that before. It's something you
> get used to. But I can imagine all sorts of Americans who live in
> small white middle class towns speaking southern accents who have
^^^^^^^^
> never seen foreigners in their life, and haven't heard one before.

Whoa, wait a second. So now it's southerners who are provincial
and ignorant, but people from the north are all enlightened and
tolerant? Isn't *that* a bit of a stereotype?

I don't have a problem if people have an accent. I do have a problem
if they aren't able to effectively communicate in the language they
need to speak to do their job. This can happen for all kinds of
reasons. One reason is that it isn't their first language and they
aren't fluent. Another is that it IS their first language but they
are just an idiot or too lazy to try to communicate effectively
(which involves things like listening).

Anyway, I would agree with you that it's wrong to say that the
support you're getting is bad because it's coming from India.
(I have worked with some Indian guys who are good communicators,
fluent in English, and *very* sharp technically.) BUT, the fact
remains that labor costs are much lower in India, and if a company
has moved support over there, it indicates that they are trying
to cut costs as much as possible. Which means it's likely that the
accountants have taken over. As so often happens with tech support,
the standards are low (after all, the customer has *already* bought
the product, so tech support is a secondary influence on the
purchasing decision), which means that while it's totally possible
to outsource tech support to India and get great results, they
just decide to ship it off to India and they don't try real hard
to ensure it gets done right. (Letting stuff be someone else's
problem is part of the charm of outsourcing, after all.)

So, my point is, there is a positive correlation between not
placing a high priority on tech support and outsourcing it to
someplace cheap. As a result, India acquires a reputation as
the land of bad tech support. Which is ironic considering
Indian culture seems to place a great deal of importance on
intellectual matters compared to most other cultures.

- Logan
Related resources
Anonymous
September 24, 2004 10:05:08 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:nlZ4d.133$W21.69@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> Sceptre wrote:
> > Also, it is just plain racist to assume that the Indians are
> > incompetant just because they may lack a knowledge in Palm products.
>
> If their job is to support Palm products and they don't have
> the knowledge about Palm products necessary to do that, then
> yes, they are incompetent.
>
> > FYI, Palm's support even based here in the United States didn't know
> > about their own products!
>
> Then they're incompetent too.
>
> > Another thing: Accents hard to understand are merely because you
> > haven't been exposed to accents like that before. It's something you
> > get used to. But I can imagine all sorts of Americans who live in
> > small white middle class towns speaking southern accents who have
> ^^^^^^^^
> > never seen foreigners in their life, and haven't heard one before.
>
> Whoa, wait a second. So now it's southerners who are provincial
> and ignorant, but people from the north are all enlightened and
> tolerant? Isn't *that* a bit of a stereotype?

Can't be racist. Geographist? Regionalist?
Dang yankee.

>
> I don't have a problem if people have an accent. I do have a problem
> if they aren't able to effectively communicate in the language they
> need to speak to do their job. This can happen for all kinds of
> reasons. One reason is that it isn't their first language and they
> aren't fluent. Another is that it IS their first language but they
> are just an idiot or too lazy to try to communicate effectively
> (which involves things like listening).
>
> Anyway, I would agree with you that it's wrong to say that the
> support you're getting is bad because it's coming from India.
> (I have worked with some Indian guys who are good communicators,
> fluent in English, and *very* sharp technically.) BUT, the fact
> remains that labor costs are much lower in India, and if a company
> has moved support over there, it indicates that they are trying
> to cut costs as much as possible. Which means it's likely that the
> accountants have taken over. As so often happens with tech support,
> the standards are low (after all, the customer has *already* bought
> the product, so tech support is a secondary influence on the
> purchasing decision), which means that while it's totally possible
> to outsource tech support to India and get great results, they
> just decide to ship it off to India and they don't try real hard
> to ensure it gets done right. (Letting stuff be someone else's
> problem is part of the charm of outsourcing, after all.)
>
> So, my point is, there is a positive correlation between not
> placing a high priority on tech support and outsourcing it to
> someplace cheap. As a result, India acquires a reputation as
> the land of bad tech support. Which is ironic considering
> Indian culture seems to place a great deal of importance on
> intellectual matters compared to most other cultures.
>
> - Logan
September 25, 2004 12:40:44 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 18:05:07 GMT, Logan Shaw wrote:

> Anyway, I would agree with you that it's wrong to say that the
> support you're getting is bad because it's coming from India.
> (I have worked with some Indian guys who are good communicators,
> fluent in English, and *very* sharp technically.) BUT, the fact
> remains that labor costs are much lower in India, and if a company
> has moved support over there, it indicates that they are trying
> to cut costs as much as possible.

Incompetent tech. support was widespread long before outsourcing
became common. When the incompetent support guy/gal speaks with an
accent it tends to be remembered more vividly. But the opposite is
also true. About 2 years ago I complemented a support guy whose
knowledge of electronic gear went way beyond any training his
company might have provided, and he showed great ingenuity in trying
to solve a problem with a GoVideo DVD/VCR combo unit. He then
mentioned his home city in India, which he was quite proud of.

In an attempt to get the best qualified support people, maybe a
law should be passed that requires tech. support to originate in the
same country that the electronic devices were designed and
manufactured in. Oh no, wait. Then almost all tech. support would
be outsourced.
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 12:40:45 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"BillB" <rainbose@earthlink.newt> wrote in message
news:knv8l011cngacq0mo102ug55otko3rg5ct@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 18:05:07 GMT, Logan Shaw wrote:
>
> > Anyway, I would agree with you that it's wrong to say that the
> > support you're getting is bad because it's coming from India.
> > (I have worked with some Indian guys who are good communicators,
> > fluent in English, and *very* sharp technically.) BUT, the fact
> > remains that labor costs are much lower in India, and if a company
> > has moved support over there, it indicates that they are trying
> > to cut costs as much as possible.
>
> Incompetent tech. support was widespread long before outsourcing
> became common. When the incompetent support guy/gal speaks with an
> accent it tends to be remembered more vividly. But the opposite is
> also true. About 2 years ago I complemented a support guy whose
> knowledge of electronic gear went way beyond any training his
> company might have provided, and he showed great ingenuity in trying
> to solve a problem with a GoVideo DVD/VCR combo unit. He then
> mentioned his home city in India, which he was quite proud of.
>
> In an attempt to get the best qualified support people, maybe a
> law should be passed that requires tech. support to originate in the
> same country that the electronic devices were designed and
> manufactured in. Oh no, wait. Then almost all tech. support would
> be outsourced.
>

Well, design...my made-in-China T|E was not likely designed in Beijing. They
just took the contract and the plans.
September 25, 2004 5:32:43 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 18:04:07 -0400, Necron 99 wrote:

> Well, design...my made-in-China T|E was not likely designed in Beijing. They
> just took the contract and the plans.

And in time not only copy but occasionally improve. A number of
years ago Radio Shack sold a AM/FM/SW radio that had a feature set
suspiciously similar to Grundig's 305. The circuit board in the RS
radio was clearly different, but the designer conveniently
silk-screened a big "305" where it wouldn't normally be seen. :) 
Radio Shack isn't likely to have provide the schematic, but probably
told their man Asia what their customers should see when the box was
opened. You may be right about the T|E, but while they probably had
no role in CPU selection or with the ROM code, they may have had a
say where other components were involved.
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 5:32:44 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"BillB" <rainbose@earthlink.newt> wrote in message
news:2sh9l0d5jatnemgodejmgprke1k40glfn3@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 18:04:07 -0400, Necron 99 wrote:
>
> > Well, design...my made-in-China T|E was not likely designed in Beijing.
They
> > just took the contract and the plans.
>
> And in time not only copy but occasionally improve. A number of
> years ago Radio Shack sold a AM/FM/SW radio that had a feature set
> suspiciously similar to Grundig's 305. The circuit board in the RS
> radio was clearly different, but the designer conveniently
> silk-screened a big "305" where it wouldn't normally be seen. :) 
> Radio Shack isn't likely to have provide the schematic, but probably
> told their man Asia what their customers should see when the box was
> opened. You may be right about the T|E, but while they probably had
> no role in CPU selection or with the ROM code, they may have had a
> say where other components were involved.

Interesting. I didn't know that.
September 25, 2004 7:41:33 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 22:43:37 -0400, Necron 99 wrote:

> Interesting. I didn't know that.

Neither did any of the usual reviewers of SW radios. IIRC, it was
the Radio Shack DX-375, and both radios had approximately the same
size and layout, same number of memories per band, same freq.
ranges, same sensitive but single conversion front end, same power
supply (2 C cells), used the same technique to program station
memories, and both lacked a clock and display light. RS eventually
replaced it with their similar, but nicely improved DX-396.
September 26, 2004 11:42:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"Necron 99" <fake@fakeryet.org> wrote in message
news:2rjjspF1asg30U1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:nlZ4d.133$W21.69@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> > Sceptre wrote:
> > > Also, it is just plain racist to assume that the Indians are
> > > incompetant just because they may lack a knowledge in Palm products.
> >
> > If their job is to support Palm products and they don't have
> > the knowledge about Palm products necessary to do that, then
> > yes, they are incompetent.
> >
> > > FYI, Palm's support even based here in the United States didn't know
> > > about their own products!
> >
> > Then they're incompetent too.
> >
> > > Another thing: Accents hard to understand are merely because you
> > > haven't been exposed to accents like that before. It's something you
> > > get used to. But I can imagine all sorts of Americans who live in
> > > small white middle class towns speaking southern accents who have
> > ^^^^^^^^
> > > never seen foreigners in their life, and haven't heard one before.
> >
> > Whoa, wait a second. So now it's southerners who are provincial
> > and ignorant, but people from the north are all enlightened and
> > tolerant? Isn't *that* a bit of a stereotype?
>
> Can't be racist. Geographist? Regionalist?
> Dang yankee.
>
> >
> > I don't have a problem if people have an accent. I do have a problem
> > if they aren't able to effectively communicate in the language they
> > need to speak to do their job. This can happen for all kinds of
> > reasons. One reason is that it isn't their first language and they
> > aren't fluent. Another is that it IS their first language but they
> > are just an idiot or too lazy to try to communicate effectively
> > (which involves things like listening).
> >
> > Anyway, I would agree with you that it's wrong to say that the
> > support you're getting is bad because it's coming from India.
> > (I have worked with some Indian guys who are good communicators,
> > fluent in English, and *very* sharp technically.) BUT, the fact
> > remains that labor costs are much lower in India, and if a company
> > has moved support over there, it indicates that they are trying
> > to cut costs as much as possible. Which means it's likely that the
> > accountants have taken over. As so often happens with tech support,
> > the standards are low (after all, the customer has *already* bought
> > the product, so tech support is a secondary influence on the
> > purchasing decision), which means that while it's totally possible
> > to outsource tech support to India and get great results, they
> > just decide to ship it off to India and they don't try real hard
> > to ensure it gets done right. (Letting stuff be someone else's
> > problem is part of the charm of outsourcing, after all.)
> >
> > So, my point is, there is a positive correlation between not
> > placing a high priority on tech support and outsourcing it to
> > someplace cheap. As a result, India acquires a reputation as
> > the land of bad tech support. Which is ironic considering
> > Indian culture seems to place a great deal of importance on
> > intellectual matters compared to most other cultures.
> >
> > - Logan
> I think the point is...Do you buy American even if it's more costly?
It you don't, that's why American Manufacturers do business in India..
$1.00 per day for skilled help. Absolutly $0.00 If they are the "Unclean
Cast" (The Indian goverment pays their wages) ( That is 1995 figures) How
can any North American Company compete with that?
Geoff.
>
Anonymous
September 27, 2004 3:21:04 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On 23 Sep 2004 21:03:25 -0700, darkcomet@att.net (Sceptre) was
understood to have stated the following:

>I believe that this topic should be addressed by this newsgroup.

Well, it *is* kinda Palm related. :-D

>A lot of people think Palm's tech support is horrible. Fine I agree

*All* tech support is horrible. I figured that out in '84 when I
called Microsoft and Tandy for a solution to a problem that both
companies said the other should answer. Bottom line, didn't get an
useful answer from them, but did learn to never again call *anyone's*
technical support. It is ironic that I am now employed in the
technical support segment.

You want good technical support? Come to the news groups. People hang
out here because they are passionate about the subject. Plus you get
the benefit of picking up on other people's problems/accomplishments,
which greatly expands your knowledge base.

But in keeping with Palm and their "spiraling", it is easy to see that
a group of people who were once passionate about a product are now
treating it as a business. The people driving this business, I
believe, are in the process of driving it out of business. They are
making way too many bone-headed decisions these days. As much as I
abhor Microsoft, I believe Palm will be as much their own undoing as
Microsoft.

>with that. But then there are a few extra who further articulate that
>it's because Palm's support was recently outsourced to India. They say
>that the people there have funny accents that they do not understand,
>that they're unknowledgeable about the products, etc.

Unless someone is passionate about something, they are going to be
ignorant of the subject. This has nothing to do with ethnicity.

>I just honestly think that Americans have their own
>president/government to blame, George W. Bush for allowing American
>workers to be laid off, and having their jobs shipped overseas in
>outsourcing. The countries who accept outsourcing aren't at fault, and
>merely just accepted the U.S.' offer for jobs.

This is one of the most assinine statements I've ever read. I was
employed for 11 years in an industry and region that has been hit very
hard by outsourcing. As posted earlier, though, most of the businesses
that evaporated in this segment did so during Clinton's
administration. So *how* is that Bush's fault? Though I abhor
politics, whenever I overhear someone claiming Bush's administration
is the reason for the job loss, I have to wonder where in the hell
they have been.

>Also, it is just plain racist to assume that the Indians are
>incompetant just because they may lack a knowledge in Palm products.
>FYI, Palm's support even based here in the United States didn't know
>about their own products! I met with a PalmOne salesperson once, (a
>middle aged caucasion lady) trying to sell me a Tungsten T when it
>first came out. I told her the color screen was better than my Palm
>III, and she was like, what model is that? I didn't buy the T that
>day. In any case, the company is usually to blame if tech support
>lacks knowledge in the product, whether domestic or abroad.

There you go, trusting sales people. They are in the business to move
product, not to study product history.

>Another thing: Accents hard to understand are merely because you
>haven't been exposed to accents like that before. It's something you
>get used to. But I can imagine all sorts of Americans who live in
>small white middle class towns speaking southern accents who have
>never seen foreigners in their life, and haven't heard one before. To
>them, any foreign accent is incomprehendible. But if you live in a
>city, you're used to seeing diversity and can understand foreign
>accents better. I think this point should be explored more before
>people criticise

I *love* statements like this from self-righteous idiot yankees. Makes
me *damned* glad that I was born and raised in the south, although I
was conceived in New England. I get the best of both worlds, and get
to say "shove it" to yankees and rebels, damned or otherwise.

>In case anyone was wondering, I'm not from India. I'm from Canada, in
>which I seriously believe Canadians are more open minded immigration
>and ethnic wise, and I'm getting sick of people complaining about
>foreigners. Thanks for reading my rant.

Maybe if you guys would do a better job of locking your borders down
we wouldn't have so many terrorists entering the country. Hmm, perhaps
we need to start treating the northern border like we do the southern
one.
!