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Lithiums in PDA?

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September 24, 2004 11:34:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

I bought some new AAA lithium batteries. I take it this is a new
product. Okay I have a Palm VIIx and want to know for one if its safe
to use these Lithiums in it, and also if the Lithiums will give me 5
times as much power over alkalines in my Palm? I typicially get about a
month of usage with 2 alkalines. I paid $12 for 4 lithiums to get
better battery usage I hope!

John

More about : lithiums pda

September 25, 2004 8:02:39 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:34:07 -0700, John wrote:

> I bought some new AAA lithium batteries. I take it this is a new
> product. Okay I have a Palm VIIx and want to know for one if its safe
> to use these Lithiums in it, and also if the Lithiums will give me 5
> times as much power over alkalines in my Palm? I typicially get about a
> month of usage with 2 alkalines. I paid $12 for 4 lithiums to get
> better battery usage I hope!

Interesting. I've looked for quite some time and only could find
lithium AAs, and for the same price that you paid for the AAAs.
They will last longer, perhaps 2, maybe 3 times longer than
alkalines. But alkalines are more cost effective. $12 worth of
alkalines (if you get them at a good price) should last 3 or 4 times
longer. Lithium's main advantages are that they operate nicely in
freezing, even sub-zero weather, where alkalines would appear to be
dead, and have an extremely long shelf life. I believe some AA
lithiums I've recently seen have a "use by" date of 2019. But put a
pair of lithiums in a Palm, store it in a drawer unused for a year
or two and they'll end up just as dead as if you had used alkalines.
Palms use a relatively significant amount of energy even while
powered off.
September 25, 2004 8:02:40 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Odd my digital camera gets probably 5 times as much power from Lithiums
as from the strongest Alkaline. So you are saying my Palm will get 2-3
times as much power? Why is this, while the digital camera gets more,
but uses up more?

If you want AAA lithiums go to Best Buy, they have a whole bunch of them.


John


In article <p5q9l0pjrkriisvs59bdjosnbu5c1gm2ed@4ax.com>,
BillB <rainbose@earthlink.newt> wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:34:07 -0700, John wrote:
>
> > I bought some new AAA lithium batteries. I take it this is a new
> > product. Okay I have a Palm VIIx and want to know for one if its safe
> > to use these Lithiums in it, and also if the Lithiums will give me 5
> > times as much power over alkalines in my Palm? I typicially get about a
> > month of usage with 2 alkalines. I paid $12 for 4 lithiums to get
> > better battery usage I hope!
>
> Interesting. I've looked for quite some time and only could find
> lithium AAs, and for the same price that you paid for the AAAs.
> They will last longer, perhaps 2, maybe 3 times longer than
> alkalines. But alkalines are more cost effective. $12 worth of
> alkalines (if you get them at a good price) should last 3 or 4 times
> longer. Lithium's main advantages are that they operate nicely in
> freezing, even sub-zero weather, where alkalines would appear to be
> dead, and have an extremely long shelf life. I believe some AA
> lithiums I've recently seen have a "use by" date of 2019. But put a
> pair of lithiums in a Palm, store it in a drawer unused for a year
> or two and they'll end up just as dead as if you had used alkalines.
> Palms use a relatively significant amount of energy even while
> powered off.
>
Related resources
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 8:02:41 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Why not use rechargeables? There's a new technology out that allows
recharging in only 15 minutes. The ones I use are Rayovac I-C3's but I've
seen other brands. My palm has a built in battery but I use the
rechargeables for my wireless mouse and it's great. I used to have a second
pair of regular rechargeables that should have been charged and ready but
usually wasn't. Now, when the batteries go dead, I just pop them in the
charger and do something else for 15 minutes while they charge. They get
awfully warm during charging but they work like a charm for several months
each time.

P.S. I believe the reason for digital cameras to have much higher
performance from Lithiums is that they use high current for short periods of
time. This is where the Lithium really outperforms Alkalizes. With slower
current draw electronics, like a palm, there will be less of a difference.
September 25, 2004 8:02:42 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

I will not touch a rechargeable battery for a number of reasons which I
will not get into know. If you read, this discussion was about
Lithiums.

John


In article <tH65d.913$gm.275@okepread07>,
"joeengineer" <joeengineer@cox.net> wrote:

> Why not use rechargeables? There's a new technology out that allows
> recharging in only 15 minutes. The ones I use are Rayovac I-C3's but I've
> seen other brands. My palm has a built in battery but I use the
> rechargeables for my wireless mouse and it's great. I used to have a second
> pair of regular rechargeables that should have been charged and ready but
> usually wasn't. Now, when the batteries go dead, I just pop them in the
> charger and do something else for 15 minutes while they charge. They get
> awfully warm during charging but they work like a charm for several months
> each time.
>
> P.S. I believe the reason for digital cameras to have much higher
> performance from Lithiums is that they use high current for short periods of
> time. This is where the Lithium really outperforms Alkalizes. With slower
> current draw electronics, like a palm, there will be less of a difference.
>
>
September 25, 2004 8:02:42 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

In article <tH65d.913$gm.275@okepread07>,
"joeengineer" <joeengineer@cox.net> wrote:

> P.S. I believe the reason for digital cameras to have much higher
> performance from Lithiums is that they use high current for short periods of
> time. This is where the Lithium really outperforms Alkalizes. With slower
> current draw electronics, like a palm, there will be less of a difference.

This was the answer to my question.

I cant touch a rechargeable for many reasons. Read below:

1) I sometimes need to use a camera or PDA in places without power
2) When I wish to use my camera or PDA I want it available instantly.
I dont have the time to charge. My camera is not used often, but when
it is used I need it available instantly. I cant guarantee such
performance from rechargeables which need constant babysitting. I dont
know about you, but I hate babysitting my devices. I just wish to pop
batteries in them and leave them alone until they die. I ahte self
discharge and every rechargebale battery in america suffers from drain.

My walkman and discman arer alkaline based. Newer MP3 players require
these lame built in (dead in 2 years) rechargeable batteries.


John
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 9:41:38 AM

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John <johnw_94020@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1096086521.ewC2L+wGayF8YhL3zJl4hw@teranews:

> Odd my digital camera gets probably 5 times as much power from Lithiums
> as from the strongest Alkaline.

Well you shouldn't be using alkalines in your digital camera in the first
place. Alkalines are not good for high draw devices.

Try using rechargable NiMh batteries - they last MUCH longer than alkalines
and are MUCH more cost effective.

--
Lucas Tam (REMOVEnntp@rogers.com)
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/
September 25, 2004 1:00:21 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 21:28:41 -0700, John wrote:

> Odd my digital camera gets probably 5 times as much power from Lithiums
> as from the strongest Alkaline. So you are saying my Palm will get 2-3
> times as much power? Why is this, while the digital camera gets more,
> but uses up more?

As Joe & Lucas pointed out, alkalines don't fare very well under
high loads. Under a relatively heavy load lithium and NiMH cells
voltages drop only slightly. Alkalines voltage drop significantly
under load and most digital devices require a minimum voltage or
they'll turn themselves off. A camera that uses 4 AA alkaline
cells starts out at 6 volts and might operate until the voltage
drops to near 4 volts, at which point most people would assume the
batteries are dead and need to be discarded. They aren't, though.
Put them in a non-digital radio playing at a moderate volume and the
measured voltage might well increase to over 5 volts and the radio
might continue to play until the voltage drops below 3 volts, which
could allow it to play for another 20 or 30 hours.

In other words, only a fraction of the alkaline's capacity
(approx. 2000 ma hrs) was delivered to the camera. Four NiMH cells
of the same 2000 ma hr capacity would start out providing only about
4.8 volts when fully charged, and would have practically no capacity
left by the time they were providing only 4 volts. ie, unlike
alkalines, almost all of their energy can be used to operate the
camera.

Like alkalines, fresh lithiums start at a fairly high voltage, but
the lithiums last longer for two reasons. First, they have a higher
capacity to begin with. Second, their voltage doesn't drop nearly
as much under load, so the camera operates much longer. In one of
the older PDAs that use very little current, lithiums outlast
alkalines mainly due to their greater capacity. Alkalines don't
check out early in the older PDAs because there's no heavy current
to pull down their voltage. (not mentioned is the battery's internal
resistance that wastes power in the form of heat).

If any manufacturer designs a PDA that uses an ARM processor and
color display (ie, much higher current than old monochrome PDAs) and
also allows it to be powered by say, 4 AAAs or AAs, then just as
with digital cameras, you might expect alkalines to be grossly
outperformed by lithium and NiMH batteries.


> If you want AAA lithiums go to Best Buy, they have a whole bunch of them.

Thanks, I'll look for them the next time I'm in one of their
stores.
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 3:13:23 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Are you trying to tell me that I should return the Lithium AAA cells
because they wont give me great performance imy Palm VIIx?

John


BillB <rainbose@earthlink.newt> wrote in message news:<em9al097g2jpr1md6s15a50sp0rb66p022@4ax.com>...
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 21:28:41 -0700, John wrote:
>
> > Odd my digital camera gets probably 5 times as much power from Lithiums
> > as from the strongest Alkaline. So you are saying my Palm will get 2-3
> > times as much power? Why is this, while the digital camera gets more,
> > but uses up more?
>
> As Joe & Lucas pointed out, alkalines don't fare very well under
> high loads. Under a relatively heavy load lithium and NiMH cells
> voltages drop only slightly. Alkalines voltage drop significantly
> under load and most digital devices require a minimum voltage or
> they'll turn themselves off. A camera that uses 4 AA alkaline
> cells starts out at 6 volts and might operate until the voltage
> drops to near 4 volts, at which point most people would assume the
> batteries are dead and need to be discarded. They aren't, though.
> Put them in a non-digital radio playing at a moderate volume and the
> measured voltage might well increase to over 5 volts and the radio
> might continue to play until the voltage drops below 3 volts, which
> could allow it to play for another 20 or 30 hours.
>
> In other words, only a fraction of the alkaline's capacity
> (approx. 2000 ma hrs) was delivered to the camera. Four NiMH cells
> of the same 2000 ma hr capacity would start out providing only about
> 4.8 volts when fully charged, and would have practically no capacity
> left by the time they were providing only 4 volts. ie, unlike
> alkalines, almost all of their energy can be used to operate the
> camera.
>
> Like alkalines, fresh lithiums start at a fairly high voltage, but
> the lithiums last longer for two reasons. First, they have a higher
> capacity to begin with. Second, their voltage doesn't drop nearly
> as much under load, so the camera operates much longer. In one of
> the older PDAs that use very little current, lithiums outlast
> alkalines mainly due to their greater capacity. Alkalines don't
> check out early in the older PDAs because there's no heavy current
> to pull down their voltage. (not mentioned is the battery's internal
> resistance that wastes power in the form of heat).
>
> If any manufacturer designs a PDA that uses an ARM processor and
> color display (ie, much higher current than old monochrome PDAs) and
> also allows it to be powered by say, 4 AAAs or AAs, then just as
> with digital cameras, you might expect alkalines to be grossly
> outperformed by lithium and NiMH batteries.
>
>
> > If you want AAA lithiums go to Best Buy, they have a whole bunch of them.
>
> Thanks, I'll look for them the next time I'm in one of their
> stores.
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 6:04:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

In article news:<1096086521.ewC2L+wGayF8YhL3zJl4hw@teranews>, John wrote:
> Odd my digital camera gets probably 5 times as much power from Lithiums
> as from the strongest Alkaline. So you are saying my Palm will get 2-3
> times as much power? Why is this, while the digital camera gets more,
> but uses up more?

I think you're misreading that.

ONE set of lithiums have more power than ONE set of alkalines ... but
lithiums are more expensive so for the PRICE of one set of lithiums you
can get SEVERAL sets of alkalines, and so more power overall.

It all depends whether you want a long period of use from a single set of
batteries, in which case lithiums have an advantage, or low overall
running cost.

You could also cosider rechargeable batteries. A set of NiMH or Li-ion
rechargeables will cost more than the cells you have, but can be recharged
very cheaply and used many times. Each charge will last less long than a
set of alkalines but recharging is cheap.

Cheers,
Daniel.
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 9:01:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 21:28:41 -0700, John <johnw_94020@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Odd my digital camera gets probably 5 times as much power from Lithiums
>as from the strongest Alkaline. So you are saying my Palm will get 2-3
>times as much power? Why is this, while the digital camera gets more,
>but uses up more?
>
camera's are high drain items. they always do better on non Alkaline cells.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 10:28:04 PM

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johnw_94020@yahoo.com (johnw_94020@yahoo.com) wrote:

> Are you trying to tell me that I should return the Lithium AAA cells
> because they wont give me great performance imy Palm VIIx?

Lithium batteries are a very expensive way to power a Palm VII. You will
get no benefit from their high-current quality, especially now that the
radio transmitter in your Palm is obsolete. They might have a useful life
of two to three times what alkalines will give you, but at much higher
cost.

Return them or not, as you wish.
September 25, 2004 10:31:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 17:01:31 GMT, Steve Knight wrote:

> camera's are high drain items. they always do better on non Alkaline cells.

You're right of course, but I just couldn't resist pointing out
the one type of batteries that would perform even worse than
alkalines in digital cameras. They would be any batteries labeled
"Heavy Duty". Heavier duty than what? Oh, maybe the cheap
carbon-zinc (LeClanche) batteries more commonly available 50 years
ago than today. So much for truth in advertising. :) 

• Eveready Carbon Zinc fact sheet •

http://data.energizer.com/batteryinfo/application_manua...
September 26, 2004 12:52:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

I'll try them this once, and decide if I should buy them again.


In article <aranders-2509041328000001@192.168.1.100>,
aranders@insightbb.com (Alan Anderson) wrote:

> johnw_94020@yahoo.com (johnw_94020@yahoo.com) wrote:
>
> > Are you trying to tell me that I should return the Lithium AAA cells
> > because they wont give me great performance imy Palm VIIx?
>
> Lithium batteries are a very expensive way to power a Palm VII. You will
> get no benefit from their high-current quality, especially now that the
> radio transmitter in your Palm is obsolete. They might have a useful life
> of two to three times what alkalines will give you, but at much higher
> cost.
>
> Return them or not, as you wish.
September 26, 2004 3:53:35 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On 25 Sep 2004 11:13:23 -0700, johnw_94020@yahoo.com wrote:

> Are you trying to tell me that I should return the Lithium AAA cells
> because they wont give me great performance imy Palm VIIx?

Certainly not. They will give you great performance, and if
you're willing to pay extra for the convenience of not having to
change alkalines once per month I doubt that it will hurt your
financial position. It's not a choice that I'd make, but then I no
longer even use alkalines, preferring NiMH cells. Yes, they do need
to be pampered in the case of older Palms such as the IIIx that I no
longer use. But with the advent of CF and SD cards, coddling
rechargeables isn't as critical as it once was. My TRGPro gets
about the battery life as the IIIx and yes, over the last several
years the NiMH cells succumbed to self discharge twice. But both
times it was a simple matter to put in freshly charged batteries,
and using a backup program (supplied with the TRGPro in ROM) have
the PDA running again with all programs and data fully restored
within a minute or so.

As I don't think your VIIx has that capability, rechargeables
would be too risky and lithiums a much wiser choice. If a pair of
them lasts 2 or 3 months the operating cost would be between $24 and
$36 per year, which is neither great nor terrible. You could easily
pay that much per year using alkalines. But at the price I pay for
AAA alkalines (buying them in packs of 12, 16 or 24) a year's worth
of alkalines would vary in cost between $6 and $8 per year. If
4-packs of lithiums dropped to $4.00, I'd probably never buy
alkalines again. Unless alkalines also dramatically dropped in
price. :) 
September 26, 2004 3:53:36 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Yeah but the cost of buying a new bult in dead in 2 years Lithium ion
battery and the cost of installing it would far exceed $36! Palm is
brilliant enough to ship all their newer units with built in batteries.
PocketPC companies are smarter than this, and allow the user the option
of replacing their battery. No battrery is soddered into the unit. But
be warned in a year or so you wont be able to find these batteries in
stores and will need to special order them. I like alkalines because
they can be found anywhere. This is a reason why I choose to remain
using a alkaline based Palm. I am perfectly happy and it does
everything I need. I dont need color, I dont need music, I dont need
video games, I dont need movies, and I dont need pictures. I need PIM,
I need a checkbook, and I need a unit that does the job. My Palm VIIx
does the job, despite it lacks multimedia features which are useless to
me.


John



In article <9hubl0l6n26k13dgfob78jf23lv0pirq3r@4ax.com>,
BillB <rainbose@earthlink.newt> wrote:

> As I don't think your VIIx has that capability, rechargeables
> would be too risky and lithiums a much wiser choice. If a pair of
> them lasts 2 or 3 months the operating cost would be between $24 and
> $36 per year, which is neither great nor terrible. You could easily
> pay that much per year using alkalines. But at the price I pay for
> AAA alkalines (buying them in packs of 12, 16 or 24) a year's worth
> of alkalines would vary in cost between $6 and $8 per year. If
> 4-packs of lithiums dropped to $4.00, I'd probably never buy
> alkalines again. Unless alkalines also dramatically dropped in
> price. :) 
September 26, 2004 9:05:07 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 20:51:34 -0700, John wrote:

> Yeah but the cost of buying a new bult in dead in 2 years Lithium ion
> battery and the cost of installing it would far exceed $36!

Where did that come from? The $36 figure was derived from the
cost of 12 AAA lithium (non-rechargeable) batteries, if a pair lasts
2 months. If they last 3 months they'd cost $24/year.

I also happen to dislike most of the soldered-in lithium-ion
rechargeable batteries, but some of them are designed to be as
easily replaced as AAAs, such as the ones used in some of Sony's CD
and MD players, which are slim "chewing gum stick" batteries. I
believe the one in the GameBoy Advance XP is also thin and pops in
and out, but a screwdriver may be needed to get to it. Prices are
moderate.

The Handera 330 had the best battery design I've seen so far. It
gave the user the choice of using either 4 AAA alkaline batteries or
a lithium ion battery pack which snapped in just as quickly as AAAs.
September 26, 2004 10:37:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

In article <07icl0p5n3341t40jes2ehpl6lub4spqis@4ax.com>,
BillB <rainbose@earthlink.newt> wrote:

> On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 20:51:34 -0700, John wrote:
>
> > Yeah but the cost of buying a new bult in dead in 2 years Lithium ion
> > battery and the cost of installing it would far exceed $36!
>
> Where did that come from? The $36 figure was derived from the
> cost of 12 AAA lithium (non-rechargeable) batteries, if a pair lasts
> 2 months. If they last 3 months they'd cost $24/year.


Yes but I was not talking about GameBoy, I was talking about Palm units.
Sony is out of the PDA market, so no need to bring them up. Palm still
makes units with these lame soldered-in batteries which will be hard if
not impossible to find 2-5 years after the PDA was introduced. I've had
a Palm VII since 2000 and this VIIX since 2003. I dont plan on
downgrading to a soldered-in battery chemistry. I can live without the
multimedia. And guess what? My batteries are still available
everywhere.

Here is a quote from a poster about the subject

"For me the worst thing on the Pocket PCs and Palms are the rechargable
batteries. I travel a lot to to places where I don't always have access
to a
power outlet. For me it is crucial to run the device on AA batteries that
are available everywhere. The 200lx or the Psion Series 3 or 5 are the
best
hand held devices for me.
I owned a Ipaq for a while and a Amigo PD 600c but the battery life was
unacceptable on both machines. Color graphic and stereo sound is pretty
nice, but if you sit on an airplane to Europe and the thing dies after 3
hours, the fun is gone. So the user needs to use battery extenders, solar
chargers and several other gimmicks to keep going. And all over sudden
one
carries three different devices. That's not my idea of a "pocketable"
computer.

Personally I don't really understand why the people are so crazy about
the
Pocket PCs or HPCs. If sound and color graphics are so important,
wouldn't a
Toshiba Libretto be better? This can do everything better after all.

I sometimes wish the manufacturers would understand that not everybody
really needs the latest and greatest, just something realiable. Just
look at
the success of the Volkswagen beetle years after the Germans quit making
them in Germany.

Herbert"


For me I'll keep multimedia out of a PDA for know.


John


>
> I also happen to dislike most of the soldered-in lithium-ion
> rechargeable batteries, but some of them are designed to be as
> easily replaced as AAAs, such as the ones used in some of Sony's CD
> and MD players, which are slim "chewing gum stick" batteries. I
> believe the one in the GameBoy Advance XP is also thin and pops in
> and out, but a screwdriver may be needed to get to it. Prices are
> moderate.
>
> The Handera 330 had the best battery design I've seen so far. It
> gave the user the choice of using either 4 AAA alkaline batteries or
> a lithium ion battery pack which snapped in just as quickly as AAAs.
>
>
Anonymous
September 27, 2004 3:04:45 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"joeengineer" <joeengineer@cox.net> wrote in message
news:tH65d.913$gm.275@okepread07...
> Why not use rechargeables? There's a new technology out that allows
> recharging in only 15 minutes. The ones I use are Rayovac I-C3's but I've
> seen other brands.

Palm devices work terribly on NiCd and NiMH rechargeables. The voltage is
too low, so the useful life is very short. Rechargeable alkalines, though,
do work pretty well, I change mine once a week (they like to be recharged
often) and I get about twenty charges out of a pair. I just rotate two
pairs and always have one pair charged and ready for a battery change.

Jim
Anonymous
September 27, 2004 3:20:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"John" <johnw_94020@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1096249061.QZ1HvvSJgxVhkqITqgP++w@teranews...
> I sometimes wish the manufacturers would understand that not everybody
> really needs the latest and greatest, just something realiable. Just
> look at
> the success of the Volkswagen beetle years after the Germans quit making
> them in Germany.

This is a good point. However, there is a good solution - use two devices.
Take the device that makes the most sense at the time. I now have a Clie
PEG-TJ37, which is an excellent PDA (by the way, contrary to popular opinion
Sony hasn't exited the PDA market, only the North American PDA market - that
leaves a few continents, even if we exclude Antarctica). I was going to
sell my reliable but memory-challenged Handspring Visor Platinum, but after
failing to get any reasonable sum of money for it on eBay, I decided to keep
it. The more I think about this, and read posts like yours, the more I
think that this is a good decision.

I need to find a solution to keep the essential data of both units
synchronized now. I imagine that shouldn't be too difficult.

Jim
Anonymous
September 27, 2004 4:12:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

> Palm devices work terribly on NiCd and NiMH rechargeables. The voltage is
> too low, so the useful life is very short. Rechargeable alkalines,
> though,
> do work pretty well, I change mine once a week (they like to be recharged
> often) and I get about twenty charges out of a pair. I just rotate two
> pairs and always have one pair charged and ready for a battery change.

Gawd, that sounds like a pain. You should give the Rayovac I-C3's a try.
Supposedly they outlast even Lithiums and it just takes 15 minutes to fully
charge them. They work great in the slow drain wireless mouse I have.

No, I don't work for Rayovac. I'm just really impressed with the
technology.
September 27, 2004 7:34:42 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Lithiums are worth their price in three situations:

You need cold temperature capability
You need long shelf life
You need very high current

Palms typically don't need any of these advantages. They aren't very high
current devices. They draw power even when turned off, removing the shelf
life advantage. At the temperatures where lithiums have an advantage, the
display on your average palm won't function.

Some people have good luck with rechargeables, but they can be a pain, tend
to make battery level indicators worthless, and have a high rate of
self-discharge.

For a palm, it's hard to be plain old alkalines for availability, easy of
use and life.

All that said, the lithiums will probably last longer than alkalines, but
probably not enough to make them good value.

"John" <johnw_94020@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1096079644.3DDm1D/emQpIvGCEOUcAgg@teranews...
> I bought some new AAA lithium batteries. I take it this is a new
> product. Okay I have a Palm VIIx and want to know for one if its safe
> to use these Lithiums in it, and also if the Lithiums will give me 5
> times as much power over alkalines in my Palm? I typicially get about a
> month of usage with 2 alkalines. I paid $12 for 4 lithiums to get
> better battery usage I hope!
>
> John
September 28, 2004 2:45:56 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:12:07 -0700, joeengineer wrote:

> Gawd, that sounds like a pain. You should give the Rayovac I-C3's a try.
> Supposedly they outlast even Lithiums and it just takes 15 minutes to fully
> charge them. They work great in the slow drain wireless mouse I have.

(note: I don't recall if I-C3 refers to the charger or its
batteries. Here I'll refer to them as the batteries...)

The Rayovac I-C3s are basically standard NiMH AA batteries. The
big problem rechargeable batteries have if preventing them from
being ruined by heat, due to overcharging. So called "smart"
chargers make an informed guess of the charge state by sampling the
battery's rising and falling voltage, but it's not 100% accurate and
the fastest chargers minimize the chance of disaster by limiting the
charging current to a rate that allows a full charge in about 1
hour. Another aid is the use of a temperature sensor mounted inside
the charger, but their accuracy is limited. Not only that, but
usually only a single sensor is used, and there's no way for it to
determine which battery is overheating. It might be one located
close to the sensor. But if it's one of the more distant
batteries, the overcharging will continue for a longer time before
the sensor shuts down the charger.

The Rayovac I-C3s place a sensor inside the AA cells so the
charger can dump huge currents into the cells and have a reasonable
good chance of stopping the charging before damage occurs. But the
batteries will get really hot, and probably not have as many
recharge cycles as they would if used in another charger. But
that's a minor quibble - I assume they'll still last for hundreds of
recharges. But being NiMH cells, their self-discharge rate is much,
much greater than lithium batteries. Also, you may be amazed at the
current used to charge the IC3s. Hint: You may need more than the
fingers of both hands to count the number of amps used.

The older Rayovac PS4 "One Hour Charger" is a very unit and can
charge any number of AA or AAA cells, up to 4, with an LED status
indicator for each cell. Unless I'm mistaken, The IC3 charger can
only charge batteries in pairs, and if used to charge any other NiMH
batteries, becomes a very slow "overnight" charger.
September 28, 2004 3:10:42 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:04:45 -0600, Jim MacKenzie wrote:

> Palm devices work terribly on NiCd and NiMH rechargeables. The voltage is
> too low, so the useful life is very short.

Not really. I've used NiCads and NiMH rechargeables in PDAs for
several years and they work very well. Although the starting
voltage is lower, they have a flatter discharge rate than alkalines.
NiCads won't last as long as alkalines, but it's different with NiMH
cells. If used only an hour or two per day, they won't last as long
as alkalines due to their high self-discharge rate, and you might
need to recharge them every 2 or 3 weeks. If used many hours per
day (like 8 or more hours) I've found that they outlast alkalines.
This is probably because they store about the same amount of energy
per charge as alkalines contain, but don't waste much of it.
Alkalines, on the other hand, still contain about 20% to 30% of
their energy when the voltage drops to the point where they need to
be replaced.



> Rechargeable alkalines, though,
> do work pretty well, I change mine once a week (they like to be recharged
> often) and I get about twenty charges out of a pair. I just rotate two
> pairs and always have one pair charged and ready for a battery change.

I can tell that you actually use rechargeable alkalines. :)  I
tried them too, but gave up on them because of intermittent problems
with the chargers. Tried three of them too. If you change them
more frequently you'll get much greater life out of the batteries.
Change them 3 times per week and they may last for more than 100
charges. It may not be worth the effort though. I tried changing
mine every day or two and got tired of that routine very quickly.
September 30, 2004 7:57:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"John" <johnw_94020@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1096079644.3DDm1D/emQpIvGCEOUcAgg@teranews...
> I bought some new AAA lithium batteries. I take it this is a new
> product. Okay I have a Palm VIIx and want to know for one if its safe
> to use these Lithiums in it, and also if the Lithiums will give me 5
> times as much power over alkalines in my Palm? I typicially get about a
> month of usage with 2 alkalines. I paid $12 for 4 lithiums to get
> better battery usage I hope!
>
> John

Disregard all of the opinions everyone posted and Google on Lithium Ion
Batteries. Different battery types work best for different purposes. Try
this link:

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone.htm
Anonymous
October 1, 2004 3:35:29 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

"Alan" <alan@erols.com> wrote:

> "John" <johnw_94020@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I bought some new AAA lithium batteries...
>
> Disregard all of the opinions everyone posted and Google on Lithium Ion
> Batteries.

He didn't say Lithium *ion*. He just said Lithium. Lithium AAA cells, to
be precise. They're different things. Lithium ion batteries are
rechargeable. Lithium 1.5v cells are not.
!