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Sisters of Battle: starting out

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Anonymous
January 5, 2005 6:19:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

My wife decided to give collecting 40K minis a try. She loves the
Sisters of Battle models, which is cool because I've got tired of Eldar
and had been toying with starting up either a Daemon Hunters or Witch
Hunters army anyway.

Question for y'all: what should she focus on collecting if she wants to
run an all-female SoB army? She's not averse to having a Penitent
Engine or two, but otherwise, she only wants female models. Any
suggestions on what to focus on for a well-balanced 1500 point army?
One that can take on Chaos would also be nice (my best friend plays a
Khorne-intensive army).
Anonymous
January 6, 2005 8:29:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Ibn Tumart wrote:
<snip>
> That's kind of what I figured. Delicate work, but I do love a challenge
> on the battlefield. My wife tends not to, but she does love smiting
> people in games.

Rain down that Holy Bolter fire on the enemy

> So what if we have four Battle Sister squads, with as many storm bolters
> and heavy bolters as we can muster, and a Seraphim squad darting around
> to harass the enemy or draw fire away as necessary? Our army is
> definitely going to have at least one Exorcist, possibly two (my wife
> loves the model---and the firepower potential!), and one Chimera. Do
> you think that's a decent core army? Also, what do you recommend we
> equip our Cannonness with?

Now the chimera would be a transport for you Inquisitor correct? The
Sisters only use the Holy Rhino (and Variants). It looks like you need
to add some tank busting melta weapons to the mix. Celestians do the
trick IIRC. Pop the squad in an Immolator and watch the heretics burn!
-Joe
Anonymous
January 6, 2005 8:52:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Desert Lurker wrote:
> Ibn Tumart wrote:
>
> Now the chimera would be a transport for you Inquisitor correct? The
> Sisters only use the Holy Rhino (and Variants). It looks like you need
> to add some tank busting melta weapons to the mix. Celestians do the
> trick IIRC. Pop the squad in an Immolator and watch the heretics burn!
> -Joe

The Chimera is probably going to be for a squad of Inquisitorial
Stormtroopers. There's one meltagun mini in every boxed set of Sisters
of Battle, so when we're done collecting and assembling, we should have
at least 4---that should be enough, I hope.
Related resources
Anonymous
January 7, 2005 3:02:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

spam@deathquaker.org wrote:
> Ibn Tumart wrote:
>
>>Helicon_One wrote:
>
> On the contrary... in my experience, Seraphim are a great assault
> squad. With two attacks apiece (and 3 for your Veteran superior), and
> the ability to hit and run... not to mention the whole unit is Faithful
> even if you don't have a Veteran.

I must confess my copy of the Witch Hunters Codex hasn't come in yet,
but I gather that you get more Faith for every Veteran Superior you
field, no?

Glad to hear Seraphim are still good. Do Veteran Superiors have the
option to take a power weapon, by any chance?

> I've had seraphim take out three
> terminators (of a squad of five) in one round, and the terminators only
> did the same in damage (so I still outnumbered them)--granted that was
> quite a bit of luck of the dice, but it still goes to show they are
> capable of more than they appear to be at first glance.

Wow, that is pretty impressive! I'm sold: Seraphim are a good choice.

For the record, I had a lone Thousand Son Marine take out a
Bloodthirster in hand-to-hand once... though to be fair, his compatriots
had a very good couple of rounds of shooting before the Bloodthirster
closed. My opponent turned about as red as the Bloodthirster was
painted when my dinky little Marine with no close combat weapons got
lucky on his rolls....

> Seraphim are worth every point--they've saved my butt in a number of
> battles. Forget the flaggellants (they're not female units anyway, if
> she is still going for the all-female army) and put the points into
> more troops or some heavy weapons.

Oh, I know, but the Battle Sisters are her baby. *I* have no problem
with fielding male figures, however, and will be fielding some IG and
Witch Hunters stuff. Maybe some Grey Knights, but only because I love
the new models and want desperately to try painting them.

> I have a Penitent Engine in my army, and I admit she's largely there to
> draw fire while the rest of my units get into place. She does that
> mightily effectively though, and can be useful against tougher
> oppenents (like, say, demons) should she manage to make it into close
> combat. The extra d6 of movement on the Walker is nice, too.

I generally am used to my walkers lasting several turns and doing a lot
of damage, but Eldar war walkers are far superior to the Imperium's.
Hmm. We'll have to think twice about the Penitent Engine, then.

Although it strikes me that once it gets stuck in, it should do pretty
well. I'd hope to keep sweeping into combats until it finally cashed
out.

You made a lot of great comments, the remainder of which I'll have to
get to later. I really do appreciate the advice: I want my wife to
enjoy it when she actually plays, and she only enjoys it when she
crushes her foes and scatters their remains to the four winds!
January 7, 2005 4:15:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Ibn Tumart wrote:
> spam@deathquaker.org wrote:
> > Ibn Tumart wrote:
> >
> >>Helicon_One wrote:
> >
> > On the contrary... in my experience, Seraphim are a great assault
> > squad. With two attacks apiece (and 3 for your Veteran superior),
and
> > the ability to hit and run... not to mention the whole unit is
Faithful
> > even if you don't have a Veteran.
>
> I must confess my copy of the Witch Hunters Codex hasn't come in yet,

> but I gather that you get more Faith for every Veteran Superior you
> field, no?

For the most part, yes--a unit's not Faithful unless they have a
Veteran Superior. However, Seraphim and Celestians are automatically
Faithful regardless of whether their leader is veteran. Upgrades to
veterans for them simply allow wargear, and in the case of the
Seraphim, adds the effect of a Simulacris Imperialum. And of course
Canonesses (and their lesser variants, Palatines) generate Faith, as
does the special character St. Celestine.

> Glad to hear Seraphim are still good. Do Veteran Superiors have the
> option to take a power weapon, by any chance?

They do--all veteran superiors of any unit type can be equipped with
wargear, and pretty decent stuff at that.

> > I've had seraphim take out three
> > terminators (of a squad of five) in one round, and the terminators
only
> > did the same in damage (so I still outnumbered them)--granted that
was
> > quite a bit of luck of the dice, but it still goes to show they are
> > capable of more than they appear to be at first glance.
>
> Wow, that is pretty impressive! I'm sold: Seraphim are a good choice.
>
> For the record, I had a lone Thousand Son Marine take out a
> Bloodthirster in hand-to-hand once... though to be fair, his
compatriots
> had a very good couple of rounds of shooting before the Bloodthirster

> closed. My opponent turned about as red as the Bloodthirster was
> painted when my dinky little Marine with no close combat weapons got
> lucky on his rolls....

Heh--it's amazing what you can do with some strategy, patience, and
luck on the dice. I will reiterate what happened to me was some luck,
but nonetheless my friend fielding the terminators has admitted
developing a healthy fear for my Seraphim over the past several games
we've played.

> > Seraphim are worth every point--they've saved my butt in a number
of
> > battles. Forget the flaggellants (they're not female units anyway,
if
> > she is still going for the all-female army) and put the points into
> > more troops or some heavy weapons.
>
> Oh, I know, but the Battle Sisters are her baby. *I* have no problem
> with fielding male figures, however, and will be fielding some IG and

> Witch Hunters stuff. Maybe some Grey Knights, but only because I
love
> the new models and want desperately to try painting them.

I just finished painting a Grey Knights army for a friend... they are
annoying with detail (particularly the terminators), but it's lovely to
see the results at the end. Of course, Sisters are also annoying with
detail, so I'm just a glutton for punishment. :)  I love the pic of the
Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle in the new 40K rulebook... they look
lovely together (and deadly...)

I prefer a mixed gender army myself... if only GW would make a proper
one! (i.e. actual mixed-gender units, not having to ally the all-girls
army with the all-boys army, etc.). I suppose that would require more
modeling work than they want to do, but it's still annoying. There are
a _few_ female models among Dark Eldar and Elves, but that's the
exception rather than the rule. *raises fist* Equality for females of
all species, darnit!!

> > I have a Penitent Engine in my army, and I admit she's largely
there to
> > draw fire while the rest of my units get into place. She does that
> > mightily effectively though, and can be useful against tougher
> > oppenents (like, say, demons) should she manage to make it into
close
> > combat. The extra d6 of movement on the Walker is nice, too.
>
> I generally am used to my walkers lasting several turns and doing a
lot
> of damage, but Eldar war walkers are far superior to the Imperium's.
> Hmm. We'll have to think twice about the Penitent Engine, then.
>
> Although it strikes me that once it gets stuck in, it should do
pretty
> well. I'd hope to keep sweeping into combats until it finally
cashed
> out.

It all depends on where you set it at the beginning of the game and
what comes between it in the meantime. The fact that it ignores
"stunned" and "shaken" results help a bit.

It is worth _considering_ but if there's something else you want more
badly it could well be tossed aside.

> You made a lot of great comments, the remainder of which I'll have to

> get to later. I really do appreciate the advice: I want my wife to
> enjoy it when she actually plays, and she only enjoys it when she
> crushes her foes and scatters their remains to the four winds!

No problem! I hope she enjoys slaught- er, purifying souls in name of
the Emperor!

Death Quaker
Anonymous
January 7, 2005 5:12:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

spam@deathquaker.org wrote:
> Ibn Tumart wrote:
>
>>Helicon_One wrote:
>
> A Immolator with twin-linked heavy bolters and blessed
> ammunition can be quite effective--no, still no where explosive as an
> Exorcist--but effective in its own right.

I'm not familiar with blessed ammunition (a few more days before my
Codex gets here... grrr...), but I just love the idea regardless of what
it may actually do.

Can troops fire inside an Immolator in 4th edition?

> ??? I thought this as an all-Adepta Sororitas army? I don't have the
> codex in front of me, but I'm pretty certain you can only have a
> Chimera if you have Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. I could be wrong, of
> course.

Sorry for the confusion. I do plan on having a squad of Inquisitorial
Stormtroopers and Chimera. Honestly, I expect the Chimera to draw fire
away from the Battle Sisters or other vehicle.

> Overall, sounds good, with the comments I've added. Which of course you
> can ignore entirely. :)  I've been playing Sisters all year so I thought
> I'd jump in and give my two cents. Hope you don't mind.

For which I am quite grateful, I promise. :) 

> Oh, don't forget to equip your Veteran Superiors with some good gear.
> Also, if you have the points, Imagifers can come in handy--they can
> _nearly_ guarantee success on Tests of Faith.

Imagifers---got it.

> My Canoness is equipped with a Blessed Weapon (the extra strength can
> come in handy against tougher creatures, which you are bound to
> encounter in a Chaos fight), Rosarius, and Cloak of St. Aspira. 2+
> Armor save and 4+ Invuln is nice. Some folks like to give the Canoness
> an Inferno Pistol--these are useful, but extremely short range, so
> don't give them to her (or any vet.) unless you're planning to get her
> up close and personal right away.

Since my usual opponent fields Possessed Marines, a Bloodthirster or
Daemon Prince, and is looking to start fielding Bloodletters, I daresay
a Blessed Weapon would get quite a bit of use.

> Heh--it's amazing what you can do with some strategy, patience, and
> luck on the dice. I will reiterate what happened to me was some luck,
> but nonetheless my friend fielding the terminators has admitted
> developing a healthy fear for my Seraphim over the past several games
> we've played.

I quite agree about making strategy and patience favor your dice rolls.
It was a case of making my own luck with the Bloodthirster: he had to
walk between two long obstacles, leaving him a narrow corridor of
movement. I had spaced a big pack of Cultists far enough away his
Bloodthirster couldn't rip through them in an assault and advance into
the Thousand Sons. Their bolter fire and one lascannon support shot
elsewhere whittled the baddie down before he assaulted them, thankfully.

> I prefer a mixed gender army myself... if only GW would make a proper
> one! (i.e. actual mixed-gender units, not having to ally the all-girls
> army with the all-boys army, etc.). I suppose that would require more
> modeling work than they want to do, but it's still annoying. There are
> a _few_ female models among Dark Eldar and Elves, but that's the
> exception rather than the rule. *raises fist* Equality for females of
> all species, darnit!!

That would be really nice, actually. Why can't women serve in the IG,
after all? And surely all the Psykers aren't male, either. And the
female Comissar model seems to be OOP.

As for Chaos, their new recruits come from Daemonworlds. Surely the
women undergo just as rigorous an upbringing as the menfolk there: why
not some female Chaos Space Marines?

Ah well... maybe if there were more female players, GW might be more
equal opportunity in their model lines. Though I suppose my writing
them a letter won't do any harm.

> Whatever you decide, enjoy slaying the heretics! Tell your wife it's
> always great to see a fellow Sisters player--not to mention a fellow
> woman gamer--out there!

Thanks, I'll pass it on!
January 10, 2005 10:34:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Ibn Tumart wrote:

>> A Immolator with twin-linked heavy bolters and blessed
>> ammunition can be quite effective--no, still no where explosive as
an
>> Exorcist--but effective in its own right.

>I'm not familiar with blessed ammunition (a few more days before my
>Codex gets here... grrr...), but I just love the idea regardless of
what
>it may actually do.

It just allows you to ignore cover saves, but that's actually come in
handy for me.

> Can troops fire inside an Immolator in 4th edition?

Erm... I don't think so, but honestly, I haven't had my 4thEd book too
long and I'm still making sense of some of the new rules.

>> ??? I thought this as an all-Adepta Sororitas army? I don't have the
>> codex in front of me, but I'm pretty certain you can only have a
>> Chimera if you have Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. I could be wrong,
of
>> course.

>Sorry for the confusion. I do plan on having a squad of Inquisitorial
>Stormtroopers and Chimera. Honestly, I expect the Chimera to draw fire

>away from the Battle Sisters or other vehicle.

Ah! I see. Yes, I can see the Chimera would work well for that (my
Immolator often does the same thing).

I've got Inq. Stormtroopers in my army and they've turned out to be
quite useful. Fairly cheap unit... often just act as a speedbump,
but an effective one at that. I had a Stormtrooper take out a
Landraider with a lucky shot from his grenade launcher... the grenage
launcher alone has come in quite handy at times.

>> Overall, sounds good, with the comments I've added. Which of course
you
>> can ignore entirely. :)  I've been playing Sisters all year so I
thought
>> I'd jump in and give my two cents. Hope you don't mind.

>For which I am quite grateful, I promise. :) 

Glad to hear it! :) 

<snip>

>> My Canoness is equipped with a Blessed Weapon (the extra strength
can
>> come in handy against tougher creatures, which you are bound to
>> encounter in a Chaos fight), Rosarius, and Cloak of St. Aspira. 2+
>> Armor save and 4+ Invuln is nice. Some folks like to give the
Canoness
>> an Inferno Pistol--these are useful, but extremely short range, so
>> don't give them to her (or any vet.) unless you're planning to get
her
>> up close and personal right away.

>Since my usual opponent fields Possessed Marines, a Bloodthirster or
>Daemon Prince, and is looking to start fielding Bloodletters, I
daresay
>a Blessed Weapon would get quite a bit of use.

*nods* Sounds like it. Even if you do a "minimalist" Canoness per
Helicon_One's suggestion, a blessed weapon may still be worth the
wargear points.

<snip>

>> I prefer a mixed gender army myself... if only GW would make a
proper
>> one! (i.e. actual mixed-gender units, not having to ally the
all-girls
>> army with the all-boys army, etc.). I suppose that would require
more
>> modeling work than they want to do, but it's still annoying. There
are
>> a _few_ female models among Dark Eldar and Elves, but that's the
>> exception rather than the rule. *raises fist* Equality for females
of
>> all species, darnit!!

>That would be really nice, actually. Why can't women serve in the IG,
>after all? And surely all the Psykers aren't male, either. And the
>female Comissar model seems to be OOP.

Exactly. There are _two_ female Last Chancer models, but that's it.
I've thought--if I ever had any desire to play IG--I could use the
House Escher Models from Necromunda to mix in some female troops, but
that's more work than it should be.

>As for Chaos, their new recruits come from Daemonworlds. Surely the
>women undergo just as rigorous an upbringing as the menfolk there: why

>not some female Chaos Space Marines?

I'm sure Chaos doesn't discriminate.

I suppose Tau perhaps look the same with their armor on, but still...
and there could be more generic female Eldar and Dark Eldar.

>Ah well... maybe if there were more female players, GW might be more
>equal opportunity in their model lines.

Maybe if there was more equal opportunity in GW's model lines, there
would be more female players.

Gaming over all (stretching to RPGs, CRPGs, etc.) has become largely
much more "female-friendly"--especially RPGs. You see equal depictions
of men and women, writeups of strong female characters that _aren't_
obviously the "token female"--they're just part of the crew, and
there's a fair number of them. You see women in games playing a number
of roles, not just the girly-girl, the whore, or the Xena-type
buttkicker. Compared to most gaming companies (or even miniature
companies--Reaper has a number of wonderful female figures), GW is
positively _archaic_ in its treatment of women. They're either
nonexistent or solely the object of "man's" protection (I remember a
line in the WHFB rulebook about "mother fear not, a man with his axe in
his hand will protect you" -- _what_ever...), and when you do see women
in GW products, they are lumped all together as if they were a separate
species and depicted in this bizarre, fetishistic holy virgin/raving
whore dichotomy (Sisters and Female Dark Eldar Wyches, for example).

It makes me wonder if the folks at GW have ever actually had any sort
of real social contact with a female human being, as they obviously
seem to have little clue as to what to do with them. They certainly
don't train their store staff to handle them well... I've stopped going
into GW stores, because some staff member inevitably asks me if "I'm
shopping for my boyfriend." I buy my GW stuff at _real_ ("rogue
trader") gaming stores where they know the phenomena of the woman gamer
isn't a new thing, and they treat me like a human being--not to mention
a customer to be respected.

I and the handful of female Warhammer/40K players I know usually have
been drawn into the game because we have other friends who play it, and
through _them_ we can see the appeal of collecting the minis and
playing a strategy wargame. The marketing for GW product does little to
reach out to a woman gamer's imagination, and the behavior of the store
staff almost universally helps turn off women from the prospect of
trying out the product--I can name several female friends of mine who
were avid gamers, walked into a GW store out of curiosity to see what
the product was like, got the "boyfriend" question or just got stared
at like they were aliens, and they turned around and swore never to go
near Games Workshop or their products again.

And back to the "if there were more female players, there would be more
female models..." idea... come _on_, do you think more female models
would turn most of the male players off? :) 

Sorry for ranting... I just need to get that nonsense off my chest. I
am _not_ the kind of person to point at a woman in a bikini and say
"THAT'S SEXUAL DISCRIMINATION!" or any of that sort of nonsense. But I
don't like being condescended to, and I don't like seeing women
depicted in only one of two ways and always having to be separated from
the men, because that's _stupid_--and that's what GW does, and it sends
a very bad message.

> Though I suppose my writing them a letter won't do any harm.

That would be very cool. I want to write to them myself, but I need to
figure out how to word the complaint coherently enough so they don't
shrug me off as a raving girly-girl.

Anyway, what were we talking about? Sisters of Battle, yes, yes. Hope
you get your Codex soon... you'll see it's a nice flexible list.
Death Quaker!
Anonymous
January 10, 2005 7:12:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

spam@deathquaker.org wrote:
> Ah! I see. Yes, I can see the Chimera would work well for that (my
> Immolator often does the same thing).
>
> I've got Inq. Stormtroopers in my army and they've turned out to be
> quite useful. Fairly cheap unit... often just act as a speedbump,
> but an effective one at that. I had a Stormtrooper take out a
> Landraider with a lucky shot from his grenade launcher... the grenage
> launcher alone has come in quite handy at times.

That's all I hope for: a relatively cheap mobile unit. If it's not
drawing firepower, then they can get somewhere and harass the enemy, and
with some luck, do some real damage.

Plus I haven't had a chance to put a tank together for ages (I don't
count Falcons or Fire Prisms!).

> I suppose Tau perhaps look the same with their armor on, but still...
> and there could be more generic female Eldar and Dark Eldar.

Female Warlocks,Farseers, and Archons would be cool, too. (Or is there
a female Archon model already?)

> Maybe if there was more equal opportunity in GW's model lines, there
> would be more female players.
<snip>
> Compared to most gaming companies (or even miniature
> companies--Reaper has a number of wonderful female figures), GW is
> positively _archaic_ in its treatment of women. They're either
> nonexistent or solely the object of "man's" protection (I remember a
> line in the WHFB rulebook about "mother fear not, a man with his axe in
> his hand will protect you" -- _what_ever...), and when you do see women
> in GW products, they are lumped all together as if they were a separate
> species and depicted in this bizarre, fetishistic holy virgin/raving
> whore dichotomy (Sisters and Female Dark Eldar Wyches, for example).

I've not much to say except "hear, hear!" to the above.

> It makes me wonder if the folks at GW have ever actually had any sort
> of real social contact with a female human being, as they obviously
> seem to have little clue as to what to do with them. They certainly
> don't train their store staff to handle them well...

That's really a shame. I've noticed that in comics and gaming stores,
it's become a lot more friendly to female shoppers. You'd think GW
would realize they shouldn't alienate 50% of their potential audience.

> I've stopped going
> into GW stores, because some staff member inevitably asks me if "I'm
> shopping for my boyfriend." I buy my GW stuff at _real_ ("rogue
> trader") gaming stores where they know the phenomena of the woman gamer
> isn't a new thing, and they treat me like a human being--not to mention
> a customer to be respected.

I've never been into a GW store. When I lived in Glasgow, I used to
walk past one on the way to a more general gaming store quite a bit, but
I had no idea what Warhammer was back then. Back then, wargames to me
meant lots of chits, dice, and a manual thicker than all my college
textbooks stacked together.

> I and the handful of female Warhammer/40K players I know usually have
> been drawn into the game because we have other friends who play it, and
> through _them_ we can see the appeal of collecting the minis and
> playing a strategy wargame. The marketing for GW product does little to

My wife really does love the detail of the models and has enjoyed
painting them. And I've enjoyed getting to spend time painting with her
to boot.

But I doubt she'd have been as keen about the models if the Sisters
didn't have full armor and guns as big as the other 40K warriors.

> And back to the "if there were more female players, there would be more
> female models..." idea... come _on_, do you think more female models
> would turn most of the male players off? :) 

Well, no, but hopefully these hypothetical female models would be
wearing more than power armor bikinis or the like!

> Sorry for ranting... I just need to get that nonsense off my chest. I
> am _not_ the kind of person to point at a woman in a bikini and say
> "THAT'S SEXUAL DISCRIMINATION!" or any of that sort of nonsense. But I
> don't like being condescended to, and I don't like seeing women
> depicted in only one of two ways and always having to be separated from
> the men, because that's _stupid_--and that's what GW does, and it sends
> a very bad message.

Yes, it is, and I really don't like the effect it has on *either*
gender. There are a lot of adolescents who play the game, after
all---do they really need to have reinforced that only men are capable
soldiers, that men are the backbone of civilization, or that women can
only fight if they're psychos or fundies?

> That would be very cool. I want to write to them myself, but I need to
> figure out how to word the complaint coherently enough so they don't
> shrug me off as a raving girly-girl.

You've already made a lot of good points in your last two posts. Just
leave out the bits about the GW management never having been with women. :) 


> Anyway, what were we talking about? Sisters of Battle, yes, yes. Hope
> you get your Codex soon... you'll see it's a nice flexible list.
> Death Quaker!
>

Me, too! I think it may be at the Post Office, waiting for me to have
time to swing by and pick it up... with luck, that will be today. (And
if it's not my Codex, then it's my Amazon order, and I'll still be happy
what with the Alan Moore and Phillip K. Dick books awaiting me. :)  )
Anonymous
January 11, 2005 1:15:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

<spam@deathquaker.org> wrote in message
news:1105371268.363225.205670@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Ibn Tumart wrote:

[Sorry for jumping in, my newsreader is playing up and I don't think I'm
getting all the replies]

> > Can troops fire inside an Immolator in 4th edition?
>
> Erm... I don't think so, but honestly, I haven't had my 4thEd book too
> long and I'm still making sense of some of the new rules.

They can, it has a firepoint for 2 like the Rhino.

> I've got Inq. Stormtroopers in my army and they've turned out to be
> quite useful. Fairly cheap unit... often just act as a speedbump,
> but an effective one at that. I had a Stormtrooper take out a
> Landraider with a lucky shot from his grenade launcher... the grenage
> launcher alone has come in quite handy at times.

That's beyond lucky, its downright impossible - you'd need to roll an 8 on
1d6 just to get a glancing hit with a krak grenade...

> >That would be really nice, actually. Why can't women serve in the IG,
> >after all? And surely all the Psykers aren't male, either. And the
> >female Comissar model seems to be OOP.

> Exactly. There are _two_ female Last Chancer models, but that's it.
> I've thought--if I ever had any desire to play IG--I could use the
> House Escher Models from Necromunda to mix in some female troops, but
> that's more work than it should be.

There's a Tanith girl, and a limited edition female Catachan with grenade
launcher as well. Still not alot to go on.

> >As for Chaos, their new recruits come from Daemonworlds. Surely the
> >women undergo just as rigorous an upbringing as the menfolk there: why
> >not some female Chaos Space Marines?
>
> I'm sure Chaos doesn't discriminate.

Space marine implants only work in conjunction with hormones produced by
males going through puberty, in the official fluff.

Tim
--
----------------
Criticizing the current administration is a treasonable offence!
The dept of "Homeland Security" has been informed of your
activities and will arrive shortly to pick you up. Please wrap
a towel around your head and stand out in front of your home
with a burning US flag so they can find you.
- smithdoer - Usenet out-take

www.rgmw.org - the RGMW FAQ, ignore at your peril!

Currently listening to: 'Toxygene' - The Orb
January 11, 2005 11:40:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Helicon_One wrote:
> <spam@deathquaker.org> wrote in message
> news:1105371268.363225.205670@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > Ibn Tumart wrote:
>
> [Sorry for jumping in, my newsreader is playing up and I don't think
I'm
> getting all the replies]

No problem. Newsreaders do that.

> > > Can troops fire inside an Immolator in 4th edition?
> >
> > Erm... I don't think so, but honestly, I haven't had my 4thEd book
too
> > long and I'm still making sense of some of the new rules.
>
> They can, it has a firepoint for 2 like the Rhino.

Thanks.

> > I've got Inq. Stormtroopers in my army and they've turned out to be
> > quite useful. Fairly cheap unit... often just act as a speedbump,
> > but an effective one at that. I had a Stormtrooper take out a
> > Landraider with a lucky shot from his grenade launcher... the
grenage
> > launcher alone has come in quite handy at times.
>
> That's beyond lucky, its downright impossible - you'd need to roll an
8 on
> 1d6 just to get a glancing hit with a krak grenade...

Hmm... I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, so I can't
argue. To be honest, at the time, my opponent (an Outrider, no less)
was doing the math, so he may have well screwed himself over (he won
that game anyway; I made some bad choices).

That, or I am misremembering how I destroyed the land raider--or am
misremembering that it was a landraider! It was one fight with an
opponent I usually don't play against, so I apologize if my poor memory
has lifted a Stormtrooper above and beyond his abilities. :) 

> > >That would be really nice, actually. Why can't women serve in the
IG,
> > >after all? And surely all the Psykers aren't male, either. And the
> > >female Comissar model seems to be OOP.
>
> > Exactly. There are _two_ female Last Chancer models, but that's it.
> > I've thought--if I ever had any desire to play IG--I could use the
> > House Escher Models from Necromunda to mix in some female troops,
but
> > that's more work than it should be.
>
> There's a Tanith girl, and a limited edition female Catachan with
grenade
> launcher as well. Still not alot to go on.

*nod* I think those are the ones I was thinking of, actually. "Warrior
Woman" and "Rocket Girl."

And yes, still not much to work with.

> > >As for Chaos, their new recruits come from Daemonworlds. Surely
the
> > >women undergo just as rigorous an upbringing as the menfolk there:
why
> > >not some female Chaos Space Marines?
> >
> > I'm sure Chaos doesn't discriminate.
>
> Space marine implants only work in conjunction with hormones produced
by
> males going through puberty, in the official fluff.

Yeah, but it's CHAOS. Shouldn't mutations and other demonic energies
allow the implant to mutate and respond to female hormones as well? (I
don't know the Chaos fiction well, this is just a stab at an argument.)


Beside which, that "official fluff" about Space Marines can be only men
is just more "justified" discriminatory BS GW players shouldn't have to
put up with. Why bother to add in a detail like that when it just makes
things more restrictive?

Death Quaker!
January 11, 2005 11:55:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Ibn Tumart wrote:

> That's all I hope for: a relatively cheap mobile unit. If it's not
> drawing firepower, then they can get somewhere and harass the enemy,
and
> with some luck, do some real damage.

Exactly.

> Plus I haven't had a chance to put a tank together for ages (I don't
> count Falcons or Fire Prisms!).

Tanks frustrate me, but then I think I got that opinion because the
first tank I assembled included Forgeworld bitz that were cut slightly
too small for what they were supposed to fit (the old ForgeWorld SoB
doors for rhinos and immolators).

>> I suppose Tau perhaps look the same with their armor on, but
still...
>> and there could be more generic female Eldar and Dark Eldar.

>Female Warlocks,Farseers, and Archons would be cool, too. (Or is there

>a female Archon model already?)

Warlocks and Farseers, absolutely.

I tried to do a search on the Online Store for Archons and got nothing
(not, of course, that there could ever be a flaw in the online store
search engine)--what list are they from?

<snip>

>> It makes me wonder if the folks at GW have ever actually had any
sort
>> of real social contact with a female human being, as they obviously
>> seem to have little clue as to what to do with them. They certainly
>> don't train their store staff to handle them well...

> That's really a shame. I've noticed that in comics and gaming stores,

> it's become a lot more friendly to female shoppers. You'd think GW
> would realize they shouldn't alienate 50% of their potential
audience.

Well, I think the problem is, they don't realize they're alienating
them.

I will admit, I think it depends on the store. I did go to one in
Philadelphia once where the owner spoke to me like a fellow gamer, but
he was a slightly older fellow (probably a manager) and obviously
understood the concept of customer service. It's a shame that
experience has been the exception to the rule.

>> I've stopped going
>> into GW stores, because some staff member inevitably asks me if "I'm
>> shopping for my boyfriend." I buy my GW stuff at _real_ ("rogue
>> trader") gaming stores where they know the phenomena of the woman
gamer
>> isn't a new thing, and they treat me like a human being--not to
mention
>> a customer to be respected.

>I've never been into a GW store. When I lived in Glasgow, I used to
>walk past one on the way to a more general gaming store quite a bit,
but
>I had no idea what Warhammer was back then. Back then, wargames to me
>meant lots of chits, dice, and a manual thicker than all my college
>textbooks stacked together.

Of course, Warhammer is cumbersome in its own way. :)  But it's fun,
anyway.

>> I and the handful of female Warhammer/40K players I know usually
have
>> been drawn into the game because we have other friends who play it,
and
>> through _them_ we can see the appeal of collecting the minis and
>> playing a strategy wargame.

> My wife really does love the detail of the models and has enjoyed
> painting them. And I've enjoyed getting to spend time painting with
her
> to boot.

Getting to paint with someone is nice. I am far more a hobbyist than a
player, although I obviously like to play too. The SOBs are not "easy"
to paint, but there is a great deal of satisfaction I feel when I
finally have a finished product.

> But I doubt she'd have been as keen about the models if the Sisters
> didn't have full armor and guns as big as the other 40K warriors.

Oh, absolutely! Actually, I love them because they kick butt _and_ are
fun to paint.

>> And back to the "if there were more female players, there would be
more
>> female models..." idea... come _on_, do you think more female models
>> would turn most of the male players off? :) 

>Well, no, but hopefully these hypothetical female models would be
>wearing more than power armor bikinis or the like!

Well, they already made the Repentia (okay, carapace bikinis), so
they'll have to come up with a new idea.

>> Sorry for ranting... I just need to get that nonsense off my chest.
I
>> am _not_ the kind of person to point at a woman in a bikini and say
>> "THAT'S SEXUAL DISCRIMINATION!" or any of that sort of nonsense. But
I
>> don't like being condescended to, and I don't like seeing women
>> depicted in only one of two ways and always having to be separated
from
>> the men, because that's _stupid_--and that's what GW does, and it
sends
>> a very bad message.

>Yes, it is, and I really don't like the effect it has on *either*
>gender. There are a lot of adolescents who play the game, after
>all---do they really need to have reinforced that only men are capable

>soldiers, that men are the backbone of civilization, or that women can

>only fight if they're psychos or fundies?

Exactly!

>> That would be very cool. I want to write to them myself, but I need
to
>> figure out how to word the complaint coherently enough so they don't
>> shrug me off as a raving girly-girl.

>You've already made a lot of good points in your last two posts. Just
>leave out the bits about the GW management never having been with
women. :) 

Well thank you. I'll work on it. :) 

Death Quaker!
Anonymous
January 11, 2005 12:05:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

<spam@deathquaker.org> wrote
> and when you do see women
> in GW products, they are lumped all together as if they were a separate
> species and depicted in this bizarre, fetishistic holy virgin/raving
> whore dichotomy (Sisters and Female Dark Eldar Wyches, for example).
>
> It makes me wonder if the folks at GW have ever actually had any sort
> of real social contact with a female human being, as they obviously
> seem to have little clue as to what to do with them.

They're gamers who have nothing better to do than paint _every_ _single_ _mini_
the 'eavy Metal Way, and you have to ask?
:-)

--
- Ward.
wardcb at earthlink dot net

The "upper crust" is a bunch of crumbs held together by their dough.
January 11, 2005 3:56:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

smithdoerr wrote:

> From what I've heard pretty much all GW stores have rather bad
customer
> service regardless of the gender of the customer. The one and only
time I
> ventured into a GW store, after visiting two other independent stores
who
> were both out of the item I wanted so I was forced to buy it there, I
got
> the impression that they only teach their sales people how to sell to

> spastic children.

Now that's a shame. So perhaps the problem is that they don't know how
to communicate with women, they just don't know how to communicate with
adults, period?

Really, it's amazing GW gets support for their product at all. It's a
testament to the quality of the games themselves, when the customer
service is so lacking.

Death Quaker!
Anonymous
January 11, 2005 10:01:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 spam@deathquaker.org wrote:

>
> Helicon_One wrote:
>> Space marine implants only work in conjunction with hormones produced
> by
>> males going through puberty, in the official fluff.
>
> Yeah, but it's CHAOS. Shouldn't mutations and other demonic energies
> allow the implant to mutate and respond to female hormones as well? (I
> don't know the Chaos fiction well, this is just a stab at an argument.)
>

Not to mention there's going to be /somebody/ with PCOS or similar
problems.

--
flippa@flippac.org

A problem that's all in your head is still a problem.
Brain damage is but one form of mind damage.
Anonymous
January 11, 2005 10:18:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

<spam@deathquaker.org> wrote in message
news:1105462505.654930.234440@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

>>> It makes me wonder if the folks at GW have ever actually had any
> sort
>>> of real social contact with a female human being, as they obviously
>>> seem to have little clue as to what to do with them. They certainly
>>> don't train their store staff to handle them well...
>
>> That's really a shame. I've noticed that in comics and gaming stores,
>
>> it's become a lot more friendly to female shoppers. You'd think GW
>> would realize they shouldn't alienate 50% of their potential
> audience.
>
> Well, I think the problem is, they don't realize they're alienating
> them.
>
> I will admit, I think it depends on the store. I did go to one in
> Philadelphia once where the owner spoke to me like a fellow gamer, but
> he was a slightly older fellow (probably a manager) and obviously
> understood the concept of customer service. It's a shame that
> experience has been the exception to the rule.

From what I've heard pretty much all GW stores have rather bad customer
service regardless of the gender of the customer. The one and only time I
ventured into a GW store, after visiting two other independent stores who
were both out of the item I wanted so I was forced to buy it there, I got
the impression that they only teach their sales people how to sell to
spastic children.

--

-smithdoerr
Anonymous
January 11, 2005 10:38:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

spam@deathquaker.org wrote:
> Tanks frustrate me, but then I think I got that opinion because the
> first tank I assembled included Forgeworld bitz that were cut slightly
> too small for what they were supposed to fit (the old ForgeWorld SoB
> doors for rhinos and immolators).

That happened with my first Predator, but I banged on the metal plate
until it more or less fit. Um, because I wanted a battle worn Predator
of course, not because I was frustrated at a fairly expensive tank kit
not having perfectly fitting pieces. :) 

> I tried to do a search on the Online Store for Archons and got nothing
> (not, of course, that there could ever be a flaw in the online store
> search engine)--what list are they from?

Sorry, I meant Dark Eldar Lords. I think they're divided into Archons
and one other type. And there is a female Dark Eldar Lord model after
all. One of the Haemonculus models may be, too, but it's kind of hard
to tell. Same deal with the Incubi.

> Of course, Warhammer is cumbersome in its own way. :)  But it's fun,
> anyway.

Yeah, but at least it has cool illustrations, fluff, and examples. Oh,
and really nifty models, which however require more money and assembly
than a baggie full of chits, as it happens.
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 1:56:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

<spam@deathquaker.org> wrote in message
news:1105461653.386450.175510@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Helicon_One wrote:
> > <spam@deathquaker.org> wrote in message
> > news:1105371268.363225.205670@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > > Ibn Tumart wrote:
> >
> > [Sorry for jumping in, my newsreader is playing up and I
> > don't think I'm getting all the replies]
>
> No problem. Newsreaders do that.

Mine more frequently than others, I think.

> > > > Can troops fire inside an Immolator in 4th edition?
> > >
> > > Erm... I don't think so, but honestly, I haven't had my 4thEd book
> too
> > > long and I'm still making sense of some of the new rules.
> >
> > They can, it has a firepoint for 2 like the Rhino.
>
> Thanks.

Its pretty useful too. I have fond memories of my Canoness rapid firing her
plasma pistol out of the top hatch whilst still protected by AV11, and of
driving into the middle of a cultist horde in another game and firing
flamers out both sides. Toasted alot of heretics that day....

> > > I had a Stormtrooper take out a
> > > Landraider with a lucky shot from his grenade launcher... the
> > > grenage
> > > launcher alone has come in quite handy at times.
> >
> > That's beyond lucky, its downright impossible - you'd need to roll an
> > 8 on 1d6 just to get a glancing hit with a krak grenade...
>
> Hmm... I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, so I can't
> argue. To be honest, at the time, my opponent (an Outrider, no less)
> was doing the math, so he may have well screwed himself over (he won
> that game anyway; I made some bad choices).
>
> That, or I am misremembering how I destroyed the land raider--or am
> misremembering that it was a landraider! It was one fight with an
> opponent I usually don't play against, so I apologize if my poor memory
> has lifted a Stormtrooper above and beyond his abilities. :) 

Blaming the Outrider seems a fairly safe option (as it is in most other
circumstances).

Of course, we could just put it down to Imperial Propaganda ;-)

> > > Exactly. There are _two_ female Last Chancer models, but that's it.
> > > I've thought--if I ever had any desire to play IG--I could use the
> > > House Escher Models from Necromunda to mix in some female troops,
> but
> > > that's more work than it should be.
> >
> > There's a Tanith girl, and a limited edition female Catachan with
> grenade
> > launcher as well. Still not alot to go on.
>
> *nod* I think those are the ones I was thinking of, actually. "Warrior
> Woman" and "Rocket Girl."
>
> And yes, still not much to work with.

Like smithdoerr said, they are different models. There are 2 Last chancers,
a Tanith girl, and a Catachan. Not exactly an infantry horde, is it? At a
push there's also a female Inquisitor and a Sister Hospitallier. We could
just assume that the Imperial Guard regiments that models have been released
for aren't equal opportunities employers, I guess (telling the women to stay
at home and make more little guardsmen to throw at Chaos marines seems quite
fitting to the Imperial mindset, actually).

> > > why
> > > not some female Chaos Space Marines?
> > > I'm sure Chaos doesn't discriminate.

> > Space marine implants only work in conjunction with hormones produced
> > by males going through puberty, in the official fluff.
>
> Yeah, but it's CHAOS. Shouldn't mutations and other demonic energies
> allow the implant to mutate and respond to female hormones as well? (I
> don't know the Chaos fiction well, this is just a stab at an argument.)

Chaos still use geneseed to create more Marines, and by its very nature
mutation will be a random process which may not create something that works
properly (if at all) - and even if CSM geneseed did spontaneously mutate
into a female-friendly form, there's no reason anybody would know about it,
and why implant precious rare geneseed into a female body just on a crazy
whim when it had never worked before?

> Beside which, that "official fluff" about Space Marines can be only men
> is just more "justified" discriminatory BS GW players shouldn't have to
> put up with. Why bother to add in a detail like that when it just makes
> things more restrictive?

Well, its the Imperium that is being discriminatory in this instance, not GW
;-). There are female Eldar models, Tau gender is supposed to be
indistinguishable to human eyes so they can be female if you want them to
be, and I think Orks are asexual.

Anyway, restrictive to some degree is good - otherwise we'd end up facing
combined EldarOrkMarineTyanid armies where every model had 10 guns.
Particular armies are defined as much by their restrictions as their
abilities - Space Marines don't come in hordes because of their points cost,
Sisters don't shoot well at long range, Tau are hopeless in combat.

Tim
--
----------------
Criticizing the current administration is a treasonable offence!
The dept of "Homeland Security" has been informed of your
activities and will arrive shortly to pick you up. Please wrap
a towel around your head and stand out in front of your home
with a burning US flag so they can find you.
- smithdoerr - Usenet out-take

www.rgmw.org - the RGMW FAQ, ignore at your peril!

Currently listening to: 'Zombie Crew' - Send More Paramedics
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 12:13:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

In article <1105476806.899791.46610@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
spam@deathquaker.org says...
>
> *takes a looksee at the online store* Ah! Yes, the Tanith female is
> very cool looking. That's the kind of model I'd like to see more of.
> Obviously female without being ridiculously cheesy. Couldn't find the
> Catachan figure.

I've got a pic of her at http://www.hotkey.net.au/~bjhann/gallery/hq.jpg
Second from the right. Not a great pic, admittedly.

Brad

--
Don't bother with the yahoo address - I never read it.
bjhann at hotkey dot net dot au
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 2:25:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Helicon_One wrote:
> <spam@deathquaker.org> wrote in message
> news:1105461653.386450.175510@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>Helicon_One wrote:
>>><spam@deathquaker.org> wrote in message
>>>news:1105371268.363225.205670@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>>Ibn Tumart wrote:
>>>[Sorry for jumping in, my newsreader is playing up and I
>>>don't think I'm getting all the replies]

<snip>

> Like smithdoerr said, they are different models. There are 2 Last chancers,
> a Tanith girl, and a Catachan. Not exactly an infantry horde, is it? At a
> push there's also a female Inquisitor and a Sister Hospitallier. We could
> just assume that the Imperial Guard regiments that models have been released
> for aren't equal opportunities employers, I guess (telling the women to stay
> at home and make more little guardsmen to throw at Chaos marines seems quite
> fitting to the Imperial mindset, actually).

I think the attitude is supposed to vary by regiment. Some have female
members, others hold to a more 'traditional' attitude.

--
=/\= Lt. Cmdr. Jim =/\=
By our chocolate, shall they know us.
Not on behalf of any committee, real or imaginary, in this or any other
universe.
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 4:42:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

"Lt. Cmdr. Jim" <ltcmdrjim@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:34n45eF4dfeu2U1@individual.net...
> Helicon_One wrote:
>> <spam@deathquaker.org> wrote in message
>> news:1105461653.386450.175510@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>Helicon_One wrote:
>>>><spam@deathquaker.org> wrote in message
>>>>news:1105371268.363225.205670@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>Ibn Tumart wrote:
>>>>[Sorry for jumping in, my newsreader is playing up and I
>>>>don't think I'm getting all the replies]
>
> <snip>
>
>> Like smithdoerr said, they are different models. There are 2 Last
>> chancers,
>> a Tanith girl, and a Catachan. Not exactly an infantry horde, is it? At a
>> push there's also a female Inquisitor and a Sister Hospitallier. We could
>> just assume that the Imperial Guard regiments that models have been
>> released
>> for aren't equal opportunities employers, I guess (telling the women to
>> stay
>> at home and make more little guardsmen to throw at Chaos marines seems
>> quite
>> fitting to the Imperial mindset, actually).
>
> I think the attitude is supposed to vary by regiment. Some have female
> members, others hold to a more 'traditional' attitude.

Interesting enough it says in the Guard Codex that birthrate and draft rate
of cadia is the same. Everyone goes to the military and yet there are only
male figures to be bought in GW...

--
Ecke

Newsgroup FAQ @ http://www.rgmw.org

Due to technology humankind produced weapons of mass destruction. Without
technology it would just take a bit longer.
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 1:51:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

smithdoerr wrote:
<snip>
> From what I've heard pretty much all GW stores have rather bad customer
> service regardless of the gender of the customer. The one and only time I
> ventured into a GW store, after visiting two other independent stores who
> were both out of the item I wanted so I was forced to buy it there, I got
> the impression that they only teach their sales people how to sell to
> spastic children.
>
That is ceratinly the case at the closest GW store to me (Ontario, CA)I
picked up my box of gaunts for testing of color combos and after talking
to one red shirt (while I was holding said box of gaunts) if I played
Games Workshop games. I said yes, 3000 points of Space marines over the
last 20 years. Then he tried to get me to buy a command squad. Anyaway,
I make it to the cash register and am ready to gleefully pay my $30 +
7.75% sales tax, and he asks me in slightly annoyed manner for my name
and address. I stare at him doubfounded for a coule of secinds and say
"why?" he replies somewhat nastily "So we can know who you are" (beause
we all know GW would never offer any specials) "what if I don't want to
tell you?" Now he is indignant "I *can* just charge you for the time'
like he was doing me a favor by not requiring my personal infromation. I
nearly put it back and left. Gaah! My local store is merely uncaring not
rude!
-Joe
!