Sisters of Battle: starting out

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

My wife decided to give collecting 40K minis a try. She loves the
Sisters of Battle models, which is cool because I've got tired of Eldar
and had been toying with starting up either a Daemon Hunters or Witch
Hunters army anyway.

Question for y'all: what should she focus on collecting if she wants to
run an all-female SoB army? She's not averse to having a Penitent
Engine or two, but otherwise, she only wants female models. Any
suggestions on what to focus on for a well-balanced 1500 point army?
One that can take on Chaos would also be nice (my best friend plays a
Khorne-intensive army).
20 answers Last reply
More about sisters battle starting
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    Ibn Tumart wrote:
    <snip>
    > That's kind of what I figured. Delicate work, but I do love a challenge
    > on the battlefield. My wife tends not to, but she does love smiting
    > people in games.

    Rain down that Holy Bolter fire on the enemy

    > So what if we have four Battle Sister squads, with as many storm bolters
    > and heavy bolters as we can muster, and a Seraphim squad darting around
    > to harass the enemy or draw fire away as necessary? Our army is
    > definitely going to have at least one Exorcist, possibly two (my wife
    > loves the model---and the firepower potential!), and one Chimera. Do
    > you think that's a decent core army? Also, what do you recommend we
    > equip our Cannonness with?

    Now the chimera would be a transport for you Inquisitor correct? The
    Sisters only use the Holy Rhino (and Variants). It looks like you need
    to add some tank busting melta weapons to the mix. Celestians do the
    trick IIRC. Pop the squad in an Immolator and watch the heretics burn!
    -Joe
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    Desert Lurker wrote:
    > Ibn Tumart wrote:
    >
    > Now the chimera would be a transport for you Inquisitor correct? The
    > Sisters only use the Holy Rhino (and Variants). It looks like you need
    > to add some tank busting melta weapons to the mix. Celestians do the
    > trick IIRC. Pop the squad in an Immolator and watch the heretics burn!
    > -Joe

    The Chimera is probably going to be for a squad of Inquisitorial
    Stormtroopers. There's one meltagun mini in every boxed set of Sisters
    of Battle, so when we're done collecting and assembling, we should have
    at least 4---that should be enough, I hope.
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    spam@deathquaker.org wrote:
    > Ibn Tumart wrote:
    >
    >>Helicon_One wrote:
    >
    > On the contrary... in my experience, Seraphim are a great assault
    > squad. With two attacks apiece (and 3 for your Veteran superior), and
    > the ability to hit and run... not to mention the whole unit is Faithful
    > even if you don't have a Veteran.

    I must confess my copy of the Witch Hunters Codex hasn't come in yet,
    but I gather that you get more Faith for every Veteran Superior you
    field, no?

    Glad to hear Seraphim are still good. Do Veteran Superiors have the
    option to take a power weapon, by any chance?

    > I've had seraphim take out three
    > terminators (of a squad of five) in one round, and the terminators only
    > did the same in damage (so I still outnumbered them)--granted that was
    > quite a bit of luck of the dice, but it still goes to show they are
    > capable of more than they appear to be at first glance.

    Wow, that is pretty impressive! I'm sold: Seraphim are a good choice.

    For the record, I had a lone Thousand Son Marine take out a
    Bloodthirster in hand-to-hand once... though to be fair, his compatriots
    had a very good couple of rounds of shooting before the Bloodthirster
    closed. My opponent turned about as red as the Bloodthirster was
    painted when my dinky little Marine with no close combat weapons got
    lucky on his rolls....

    > Seraphim are worth every point--they've saved my butt in a number of
    > battles. Forget the flaggellants (they're not female units anyway, if
    > she is still going for the all-female army) and put the points into
    > more troops or some heavy weapons.

    Oh, I know, but the Battle Sisters are her baby. *I* have no problem
    with fielding male figures, however, and will be fielding some IG and
    Witch Hunters stuff. Maybe some Grey Knights, but only because I love
    the new models and want desperately to try painting them.

    > I have a Penitent Engine in my army, and I admit she's largely there to
    > draw fire while the rest of my units get into place. She does that
    > mightily effectively though, and can be useful against tougher
    > oppenents (like, say, demons) should she manage to make it into close
    > combat. The extra d6 of movement on the Walker is nice, too.

    I generally am used to my walkers lasting several turns and doing a lot
    of damage, but Eldar war walkers are far superior to the Imperium's.
    Hmm. We'll have to think twice about the Penitent Engine, then.

    Although it strikes me that once it gets stuck in, it should do pretty
    well. I'd hope to keep sweeping into combats until it finally cashed
    out.

    You made a lot of great comments, the remainder of which I'll have to
    get to later. I really do appreciate the advice: I want my wife to
    enjoy it when she actually plays, and she only enjoys it when she
    crushes her foes and scatters their remains to the four winds!
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    Ibn Tumart wrote:
    > spam@deathquaker.org wrote:
    > > Ibn Tumart wrote:
    > >
    > >>Helicon_One wrote:
    > >
    > > On the contrary... in my experience, Seraphim are a great assault
    > > squad. With two attacks apiece (and 3 for your Veteran superior),
    and
    > > the ability to hit and run... not to mention the whole unit is
    Faithful
    > > even if you don't have a Veteran.
    >
    > I must confess my copy of the Witch Hunters Codex hasn't come in yet,

    > but I gather that you get more Faith for every Veteran Superior you
    > field, no?

    For the most part, yes--a unit's not Faithful unless they have a
    Veteran Superior. However, Seraphim and Celestians are automatically
    Faithful regardless of whether their leader is veteran. Upgrades to
    veterans for them simply allow wargear, and in the case of the
    Seraphim, adds the effect of a Simulacris Imperialum. And of course
    Canonesses (and their lesser variants, Palatines) generate Faith, as
    does the special character St. Celestine.

    > Glad to hear Seraphim are still good. Do Veteran Superiors have the
    > option to take a power weapon, by any chance?

    They do--all veteran superiors of any unit type can be equipped with
    wargear, and pretty decent stuff at that.

    > > I've had seraphim take out three
    > > terminators (of a squad of five) in one round, and the terminators
    only
    > > did the same in damage (so I still outnumbered them)--granted that
    was
    > > quite a bit of luck of the dice, but it still goes to show they are
    > > capable of more than they appear to be at first glance.
    >
    > Wow, that is pretty impressive! I'm sold: Seraphim are a good choice.
    >
    > For the record, I had a lone Thousand Son Marine take out a
    > Bloodthirster in hand-to-hand once... though to be fair, his
    compatriots
    > had a very good couple of rounds of shooting before the Bloodthirster

    > closed. My opponent turned about as red as the Bloodthirster was
    > painted when my dinky little Marine with no close combat weapons got
    > lucky on his rolls....

    Heh--it's amazing what you can do with some strategy, patience, and
    luck on the dice. I will reiterate what happened to me was some luck,
    but nonetheless my friend fielding the terminators has admitted
    developing a healthy fear for my Seraphim over the past several games
    we've played.

    > > Seraphim are worth every point--they've saved my butt in a number
    of
    > > battles. Forget the flaggellants (they're not female units anyway,
    if
    > > she is still going for the all-female army) and put the points into
    > > more troops or some heavy weapons.
    >
    > Oh, I know, but the Battle Sisters are her baby. *I* have no problem
    > with fielding male figures, however, and will be fielding some IG and

    > Witch Hunters stuff. Maybe some Grey Knights, but only because I
    love
    > the new models and want desperately to try painting them.

    I just finished painting a Grey Knights army for a friend... they are
    annoying with detail (particularly the terminators), but it's lovely to
    see the results at the end. Of course, Sisters are also annoying with
    detail, so I'm just a glutton for punishment. :) I love the pic of the
    Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle in the new 40K rulebook... they look
    lovely together (and deadly...)

    I prefer a mixed gender army myself... if only GW would make a proper
    one! (i.e. actual mixed-gender units, not having to ally the all-girls
    army with the all-boys army, etc.). I suppose that would require more
    modeling work than they want to do, but it's still annoying. There are
    a _few_ female models among Dark Eldar and Elves, but that's the
    exception rather than the rule. *raises fist* Equality for females of
    all species, darnit!!

    > > I have a Penitent Engine in my army, and I admit she's largely
    there to
    > > draw fire while the rest of my units get into place. She does that
    > > mightily effectively though, and can be useful against tougher
    > > oppenents (like, say, demons) should she manage to make it into
    close
    > > combat. The extra d6 of movement on the Walker is nice, too.
    >
    > I generally am used to my walkers lasting several turns and doing a
    lot
    > of damage, but Eldar war walkers are far superior to the Imperium's.
    > Hmm. We'll have to think twice about the Penitent Engine, then.
    >
    > Although it strikes me that once it gets stuck in, it should do
    pretty
    > well. I'd hope to keep sweeping into combats until it finally
    cashed
    > out.

    It all depends on where you set it at the beginning of the game and
    what comes between it in the meantime. The fact that it ignores
    "stunned" and "shaken" results help a bit.

    It is worth _considering_ but if there's something else you want more
    badly it could well be tossed aside.

    > You made a lot of great comments, the remainder of which I'll have to

    > get to later. I really do appreciate the advice: I want my wife to
    > enjoy it when she actually plays, and she only enjoys it when she
    > crushes her foes and scatters their remains to the four winds!

    No problem! I hope she enjoys slaught- er, purifying souls in name of
    the Emperor!

    Death Quaker
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    spam@deathquaker.org wrote:
    > Ibn Tumart wrote:
    >
    >>Helicon_One wrote:
    >
    > A Immolator with twin-linked heavy bolters and blessed
    > ammunition can be quite effective--no, still no where explosive as an
    > Exorcist--but effective in its own right.

    I'm not familiar with blessed ammunition (a few more days before my
    Codex gets here... grrr...), but I just love the idea regardless of what
    it may actually do.

    Can troops fire inside an Immolator in 4th edition?

    > ??? I thought this as an all-Adepta Sororitas army? I don't have the
    > codex in front of me, but I'm pretty certain you can only have a
    > Chimera if you have Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. I could be wrong, of
    > course.

    Sorry for the confusion. I do plan on having a squad of Inquisitorial
    Stormtroopers and Chimera. Honestly, I expect the Chimera to draw fire
    away from the Battle Sisters or other vehicle.

    > Overall, sounds good, with the comments I've added. Which of course you
    > can ignore entirely. :) I've been playing Sisters all year so I thought
    > I'd jump in and give my two cents. Hope you don't mind.

    For which I am quite grateful, I promise. :)

    > Oh, don't forget to equip your Veteran Superiors with some good gear.
    > Also, if you have the points, Imagifers can come in handy--they can
    > _nearly_ guarantee success on Tests of Faith.

    Imagifers---got it.

    > My Canoness is equipped with a Blessed Weapon (the extra strength can
    > come in handy against tougher creatures, which you are bound to
    > encounter in a Chaos fight), Rosarius, and Cloak of St. Aspira. 2+
    > Armor save and 4+ Invuln is nice. Some folks like to give the Canoness
    > an Inferno Pistol--these are useful, but extremely short range, so
    > don't give them to her (or any vet.) unless you're planning to get her
    > up close and personal right away.

    Since my usual opponent fields Possessed Marines, a Bloodthirster or
    Daemon Prince, and is looking to start fielding Bloodletters, I daresay
    a Blessed Weapon would get quite a bit of use.

    > Heh--it's amazing what you can do with some strategy, patience, and
    > luck on the dice. I will reiterate what happened to me was some luck,
    > but nonetheless my friend fielding the terminators has admitted
    > developing a healthy fear for my Seraphim over the past several games
    > we've played.

    I quite agree about making strategy and patience favor your dice rolls.
    It was a case of making my own luck with the Bloodthirster: he had to
    walk between two long obstacles, leaving him a narrow corridor of
    movement. I had spaced a big pack of Cultists far enough away his
    Bloodthirster couldn't rip through them in an assault and advance into
    the Thousand Sons. Their bolter fire and one lascannon support shot
    elsewhere whittled the baddie down before he assaulted them, thankfully.

    > I prefer a mixed gender army myself... if only GW would make a proper
    > one! (i.e. actual mixed-gender units, not having to ally the all-girls
    > army with the all-boys army, etc.). I suppose that would require more
    > modeling work than they want to do, but it's still annoying. There are
    > a _few_ female models among Dark Eldar and Elves, but that's the
    > exception rather than the rule. *raises fist* Equality for females of
    > all species, darnit!!

    That would be really nice, actually. Why can't women serve in the IG,
    after all? And surely all the Psykers aren't male, either. And the
    female Comissar model seems to be OOP.

    As for Chaos, their new recruits come from Daemonworlds. Surely the
    women undergo just as rigorous an upbringing as the menfolk there: why
    not some female Chaos Space Marines?

    Ah well... maybe if there were more female players, GW might be more
    equal opportunity in their model lines. Though I suppose my writing
    them a letter won't do any harm.

    > Whatever you decide, enjoy slaying the heretics! Tell your wife it's
    > always great to see a fellow Sisters player--not to mention a fellow
    > woman gamer--out there!

    Thanks, I'll pass it on!
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    Ibn Tumart wrote:

    >> A Immolator with twin-linked heavy bolters and blessed
    >> ammunition can be quite effective--no, still no where explosive as
    an
    >> Exorcist--but effective in its own right.

    >I'm not familiar with blessed ammunition (a few more days before my
    >Codex gets here... grrr...), but I just love the idea regardless of
    what
    >it may actually do.

    It just allows you to ignore cover saves, but that's actually come in
    handy for me.

    > Can troops fire inside an Immolator in 4th edition?

    Erm... I don't think so, but honestly, I haven't had my 4thEd book too
    long and I'm still making sense of some of the new rules.

    >> ??? I thought this as an all-Adepta Sororitas army? I don't have the
    >> codex in front of me, but I'm pretty certain you can only have a
    >> Chimera if you have Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. I could be wrong,
    of
    >> course.

    >Sorry for the confusion. I do plan on having a squad of Inquisitorial
    >Stormtroopers and Chimera. Honestly, I expect the Chimera to draw fire

    >away from the Battle Sisters or other vehicle.

    Ah! I see. Yes, I can see the Chimera would work well for that (my
    Immolator often does the same thing).

    I've got Inq. Stormtroopers in my army and they've turned out to be
    quite useful. Fairly cheap unit... often just act as a speedbump,
    but an effective one at that. I had a Stormtrooper take out a
    Landraider with a lucky shot from his grenade launcher... the grenage
    launcher alone has come in quite handy at times.

    >> Overall, sounds good, with the comments I've added. Which of course
    you
    >> can ignore entirely. :) I've been playing Sisters all year so I
    thought
    >> I'd jump in and give my two cents. Hope you don't mind.

    >For which I am quite grateful, I promise. :)

    Glad to hear it! :)

    <snip>

    >> My Canoness is equipped with a Blessed Weapon (the extra strength
    can
    >> come in handy against tougher creatures, which you are bound to
    >> encounter in a Chaos fight), Rosarius, and Cloak of St. Aspira. 2+
    >> Armor save and 4+ Invuln is nice. Some folks like to give the
    Canoness
    >> an Inferno Pistol--these are useful, but extremely short range, so
    >> don't give them to her (or any vet.) unless you're planning to get
    her
    >> up close and personal right away.

    >Since my usual opponent fields Possessed Marines, a Bloodthirster or
    >Daemon Prince, and is looking to start fielding Bloodletters, I
    daresay
    >a Blessed Weapon would get quite a bit of use.

    *nods* Sounds like it. Even if you do a "minimalist" Canoness per
    Helicon_One's suggestion, a blessed weapon may still be worth the
    wargear points.

    <snip>

    >> I prefer a mixed gender army myself... if only GW would make a
    proper
    >> one! (i.e. actual mixed-gender units, not having to ally the
    all-girls
    >> army with the all-boys army, etc.). I suppose that would require
    more
    >> modeling work than they want to do, but it's still annoying. There
    are
    >> a _few_ female models among Dark Eldar and Elves, but that's the
    >> exception rather than the rule. *raises fist* Equality for females
    of
    >> all species, darnit!!

    >That would be really nice, actually. Why can't women serve in the IG,
    >after all? And surely all the Psykers aren't male, either. And the
    >female Comissar model seems to be OOP.

    Exactly. There are _two_ female Last Chancer models, but that's it.
    I've thought--if I ever had any desire to play IG--I could use the
    House Escher Models from Necromunda to mix in some female troops, but
    that's more work than it should be.

    >As for Chaos, their new recruits come from Daemonworlds. Surely the
    >women undergo just as rigorous an upbringing as the menfolk there: why

    >not some female Chaos Space Marines?

    I'm sure Chaos doesn't discriminate.

    I suppose Tau perhaps look the same with their armor on, but still...
    and there could be more generic female Eldar and Dark Eldar.

    >Ah well... maybe if there were more female players, GW might be more
    >equal opportunity in their model lines.

    Maybe if there was more equal opportunity in GW's model lines, there
    would be more female players.

    Gaming over all (stretching to RPGs, CRPGs, etc.) has become largely
    much more "female-friendly"--especially RPGs. You see equal depictions
    of men and women, writeups of strong female characters that _aren't_
    obviously the "token female"--they're just part of the crew, and
    there's a fair number of them. You see women in games playing a number
    of roles, not just the girly-girl, the whore, or the Xena-type
    buttkicker. Compared to most gaming companies (or even miniature
    companies--Reaper has a number of wonderful female figures), GW is
    positively _archaic_ in its treatment of women. They're either
    nonexistent or solely the object of "man's" protection (I remember a
    line in the WHFB rulebook about "mother fear not, a man with his axe in
    his hand will protect you" -- _what_ever...), and when you do see women
    in GW products, they are lumped all together as if they were a separate
    species and depicted in this bizarre, fetishistic holy virgin/raving
    whore dichotomy (Sisters and Female Dark Eldar Wyches, for example).

    It makes me wonder if the folks at GW have ever actually had any sort
    of real social contact with a female human being, as they obviously
    seem to have little clue as to what to do with them. They certainly
    don't train their store staff to handle them well... I've stopped going
    into GW stores, because some staff member inevitably asks me if "I'm
    shopping for my boyfriend." I buy my GW stuff at _real_ ("rogue
    trader") gaming stores where they know the phenomena of the woman gamer
    isn't a new thing, and they treat me like a human being--not to mention
    a customer to be respected.

    I and the handful of female Warhammer/40K players I know usually have
    been drawn into the game because we have other friends who play it, and
    through _them_ we can see the appeal of collecting the minis and
    playing a strategy wargame. The marketing for GW product does little to
    reach out to a woman gamer's imagination, and the behavior of the store
    staff almost universally helps turn off women from the prospect of
    trying out the product--I can name several female friends of mine who
    were avid gamers, walked into a GW store out of curiosity to see what
    the product was like, got the "boyfriend" question or just got stared
    at like they were aliens, and they turned around and swore never to go
    near Games Workshop or their products again.

    And back to the "if there were more female players, there would be more
    female models..." idea... come _on_, do you think more female models
    would turn most of the male players off? :)

    Sorry for ranting... I just need to get that nonsense off my chest. I
    am _not_ the kind of person to point at a woman in a bikini and say
    "THAT'S SEXUAL DISCRIMINATION!" or any of that sort of nonsense. But I
    don't like being condescended to, and I don't like seeing women
    depicted in only one of two ways and always having to be separated from
    the men, because that's _stupid_--and that's what GW does, and it sends
    a very bad message.

    > Though I suppose my writing them a letter won't do any harm.

    That would be very cool. I want to write to them myself, but I need to
    figure out how to word the complaint coherently enough so they don't
    shrug me off as a raving girly-girl.

    Anyway, what were we talking about? Sisters of Battle, yes, yes. Hope
    you get your Codex soon... you'll see it's a nice flexible list.
    Death Quaker!
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    spam@deathquaker.org wrote:
    > Ah! I see. Yes, I can see the Chimera would work well for that (my
    > Immolator often does the same thing).
    >
    > I've got Inq. Stormtroopers in my army and they've turned out to be
    > quite useful. Fairly cheap unit... often just act as a speedbump,
    > but an effective one at that. I had a Stormtrooper take out a
    > Landraider with a lucky shot from his grenade launcher... the grenage
    > launcher alone has come in quite handy at times.

    That's all I hope for: a relatively cheap mobile unit. If it's not
    drawing firepower, then they can get somewhere and harass the enemy, and
    with some luck, do some real damage.

    Plus I haven't had a chance to put a tank together for ages (I don't
    count Falcons or Fire Prisms!).

    > I suppose Tau perhaps look the same with their armor on, but still...
    > and there could be more generic female Eldar and Dark Eldar.

    Female Warlocks,Farseers, and Archons would be cool, too. (Or is there
    a female Archon model already?)

    > Maybe if there was more equal opportunity in GW's model lines, there
    > would be more female players.
    <snip>
    > Compared to most gaming companies (or even miniature
    > companies--Reaper has a number of wonderful female figures), GW is
    > positively _archaic_ in its treatment of women. They're either
    > nonexistent or solely the object of "man's" protection (I remember a
    > line in the WHFB rulebook about "mother fear not, a man with his axe in
    > his hand will protect you" -- _what_ever...), and when you do see women
    > in GW products, they are lumped all together as if they were a separate
    > species and depicted in this bizarre, fetishistic holy virgin/raving
    > whore dichotomy (Sisters and Female Dark Eldar Wyches, for example).

    I've not much to say except "hear, hear!" to the above.

    > It makes me wonder if the folks at GW have ever actually had any sort
    > of real social contact with a female human being, as they obviously
    > seem to have little clue as to what to do with them. They certainly
    > don't train their store staff to handle them well...

    That's really a shame. I've noticed that in comics and gaming stores,
    it's become a lot more friendly to female shoppers. You'd think GW
    would realize they shouldn't alienate 50% of their potential audience.

    > I've stopped going
    > into GW stores, because some staff member inevitably asks me if "I'm
    > shopping for my boyfriend." I buy my GW stuff at _real_ ("rogue
    > trader") gaming stores where they know the phenomena of the woman gamer
    > isn't a new thing, and they treat me like a human being--not to mention
    > a customer to be respected.

    I've never been into a GW store. When I lived in Glasgow, I used to
    walk past one on the way to a more general gaming store quite a bit, but
    I had no idea what Warhammer was back then. Back then, wargames to me
    meant lots of chits, dice, and a manual thicker than all my college
    textbooks stacked together.

    > I and the handful of female Warhammer/40K players I know usually have
    > been drawn into the game because we have other friends who play it, and
    > through _them_ we can see the appeal of collecting the minis and
    > playing a strategy wargame. The marketing for GW product does little to

    My wife really does love the detail of the models and has enjoyed
    painting them. And I've enjoyed getting to spend time painting with her
    to boot.

    But I doubt she'd have been as keen about the models if the Sisters
    didn't have full armor and guns as big as the other 40K warriors.

    > And back to the "if there were more female players, there would be more
    > female models..." idea... come _on_, do you think more female models
    > would turn most of the male players off? :)

    Well, no, but hopefully these hypothetical female models would be
    wearing more than power armor bikinis or the like!

    > Sorry for ranting... I just need to get that nonsense off my chest. I
    > am _not_ the kind of person to point at a woman in a bikini and say
    > "THAT'S SEXUAL DISCRIMINATION!" or any of that sort of nonsense. But I
    > don't like being condescended to, and I don't like seeing women
    > depicted in only one of two ways and always having to be separated from
    > the men, because that's _stupid_--and that's what GW does, and it sends
    > a very bad message.

    Yes, it is, and I really don't like the effect it has on *either*
    gender. There are a lot of adolescents who play the game, after
    all---do they really need to have reinforced that only men are capable
    soldiers, that men are the backbone of civilization, or that women can
    only fight if they're psychos or fundies?

    > That would be very cool. I want to write to them myself, but I need to
    > figure out how to word the complaint coherently enough so they don't
    > shrug me off as a raving girly-girl.

    You've already made a lot of good points in your last two posts. Just
    leave out the bits about the GW management never having been with women. :)


    > Anyway, what were we talking about? Sisters of Battle, yes, yes. Hope
    > you get your Codex soon... you'll see it's a nice flexible list.
    > Death Quaker!
    >

    Me, too! I think it may be at the Post Office, waiting for me to have
    time to swing by and pick it up... with luck, that will be today. (And
    if it's not my Codex, then it's my Amazon order, and I'll still be happy
    what with the Alan Moore and Phillip K. Dick books awaiting me. :) )
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    <spam@deathquaker.org> wrote in message
    news:1105371268.363225.205670@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    > Ibn Tumart wrote:

    [Sorry for jumping in, my newsreader is playing up and I don't think I'm
    getting all the replies]

    > > Can troops fire inside an Immolator in 4th edition?
    >
    > Erm... I don't think so, but honestly, I haven't had my 4thEd book too
    > long and I'm still making sense of some of the new rules.

    They can, it has a firepoint for 2 like the Rhino.

    > I've got Inq. Stormtroopers in my army and they've turned out to be
    > quite useful. Fairly cheap unit... often just act as a speedbump,
    > but an effective one at that. I had a Stormtrooper take out a
    > Landraider with a lucky shot from his grenade launcher... the grenage
    > launcher alone has come in quite handy at times.

    That's beyond lucky, its downright impossible - you'd need to roll an 8 on
    1d6 just to get a glancing hit with a krak grenade...

    > >That would be really nice, actually. Why can't women serve in the IG,
    > >after all? And surely all the Psykers aren't male, either. And the
    > >female Comissar model seems to be OOP.

    > Exactly. There are _two_ female Last Chancer models, but that's it.
    > I've thought--if I ever had any desire to play IG--I could use the
    > House Escher Models from Necromunda to mix in some female troops, but
    > that's more work than it should be.

    There's a Tanith girl, and a limited edition female Catachan with grenade
    launcher as well. Still not alot to go on.

    > >As for Chaos, their new recruits come from Daemonworlds. Surely the
    > >women undergo just as rigorous an upbringing as the menfolk there: why
    > >not some female Chaos Space Marines?
    >
    > I'm sure Chaos doesn't discriminate.

    Space marine implants only work in conjunction with hormones produced by
    males going through puberty, in the official fluff.

    Tim
    --
    ----------------
    Criticizing the current administration is a treasonable offence!
    The dept of "Homeland Security" has been informed of your
    activities and will arrive shortly to pick you up. Please wrap
    a towel around your head and stand out in front of your home
    with a burning US flag so they can find you.
    - smithdoer - Usenet out-take

    www.rgmw.org - the RGMW FAQ, ignore at your peril!

    Currently listening to: 'Toxygene' - The Orb
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    Helicon_One wrote:
    > <spam@deathquaker.org> wrote in message
    > news:1105371268.363225.205670@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    > > Ibn Tumart wrote:
    >
    > [Sorry for jumping in, my newsreader is playing up and I don't think
    I'm
    > getting all the replies]

    No problem. Newsreaders do that.

    > > > Can troops fire inside an Immolator in 4th edition?
    > >
    > > Erm... I don't think so, but honestly, I haven't had my 4thEd book
    too
    > > long and I'm still making sense of some of the new rules.
    >
    > They can, it has a firepoint for 2 like the Rhino.

    Thanks.

    > > I've got Inq. Stormtroopers in my army and they've turned out to be
    > > quite useful. Fairly cheap unit... often just act as a speedbump,
    > > but an effective one at that. I had a Stormtrooper take out a
    > > Landraider with a lucky shot from his grenade launcher... the
    grenage
    > > launcher alone has come in quite handy at times.
    >
    > That's beyond lucky, its downright impossible - you'd need to roll an
    8 on
    > 1d6 just to get a glancing hit with a krak grenade...

    Hmm... I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, so I can't
    argue. To be honest, at the time, my opponent (an Outrider, no less)
    was doing the math, so he may have well screwed himself over (he won
    that game anyway; I made some bad choices).

    That, or I am misremembering how I destroyed the land raider--or am
    misremembering that it was a landraider! It was one fight with an
    opponent I usually don't play against, so I apologize if my poor memory
    has lifted a Stormtrooper above and beyond his abilities. :)

    > > >That would be really nice, actually. Why can't women serve in the
    IG,
    > > >after all? And surely all the Psykers aren't male, either. And the
    > > >female Comissar model seems to be OOP.
    >
    > > Exactly. There are _two_ female Last Chancer models, but that's it.
    > > I've thought--if I ever had any desire to play IG--I could use the
    > > House Escher Models from Necromunda to mix in some female troops,
    but
    > > that's more work than it should be.
    >
    > There's a Tanith girl, and a limited edition female Catachan with
    grenade
    > launcher as well. Still not alot to go on.

    *nod* I think those are the ones I was thinking of, actually. "Warrior
    Woman" and "Rocket Girl."

    And yes, still not much to work with.

    > > >As for Chaos, their new recruits come from Daemonworlds. Surely
    the
    > > >women undergo just as rigorous an upbringing as the menfolk there:
    why
    > > >not some female Chaos Space Marines?
    > >
    > > I'm sure Chaos doesn't discriminate.
    >
    > Space marine implants only work in conjunction with hormones produced
    by
    > males going through puberty, in the official fluff.

    Yeah, but it's CHAOS. Shouldn't mutations and other demonic energies
    allow the implant to mutate and respond to female hormones as well? (I
    don't know the Chaos fiction well, this is just a stab at an argument.)


    Beside which, that "official fluff" about Space Marines can be only men
    is just more "justified" discriminatory BS GW players shouldn't have to
    put up with. Why bother to add in a detail like that when it just makes
    things more restrictive?

    Death Quaker!
  10. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    Ibn Tumart wrote:

    > That's all I hope for: a relatively cheap mobile unit. If it's not
    > drawing firepower, then they can get somewhere and harass the enemy,
    and
    > with some luck, do some real damage.

    Exactly.

    > Plus I haven't had a chance to put a tank together for ages (I don't
    > count Falcons or Fire Prisms!).

    Tanks frustrate me, but then I think I got that opinion because the
    first tank I assembled included Forgeworld bitz that were cut slightly
    too small for what they were supposed to fit (the old ForgeWorld SoB
    doors for rhinos and immolators).

    >> I suppose Tau perhaps look the same with their armor on, but
    still...
    >> and there could be more generic female Eldar and Dark Eldar.

    >Female Warlocks,Farseers, and Archons would be cool, too. (Or is there

    >a female Archon model already?)

    Warlocks and Farseers, absolutely.

    I tried to do a search on the Online Store for Archons and got nothing
    (not, of course, that there could ever be a flaw in the online store
    search engine)--what list are they from?

    <snip>

    >> It makes me wonder if the folks at GW have ever actually had any
    sort
    >> of real social contact with a female human being, as they obviously
    >> seem to have little clue as to what to do with them. They certainly
    >> don't train their store staff to handle them well...

    > That's really a shame. I've noticed that in comics and gaming stores,

    > it's become a lot more friendly to female shoppers. You'd think GW
    > would realize they shouldn't alienate 50% of their potential
    audience.

    Well, I think the problem is, they don't realize they're alienating
    them.

    I will admit, I think it depends on the store. I did go to one in
    Philadelphia once where the owner spoke to me like a fellow gamer, but
    he was a slightly older fellow (probably a manager) and obviously
    understood the concept of customer service. It's a shame that
    experience has been the exception to the rule.

    >> I've stopped going
    >> into GW stores, because some staff member inevitably asks me if "I'm
    >> shopping for my boyfriend." I buy my GW stuff at _real_ ("rogue
    >> trader") gaming stores where they know the phenomena of the woman
    gamer
    >> isn't a new thing, and they treat me like a human being--not to
    mention
    >> a customer to be respected.

    >I've never been into a GW store. When I lived in Glasgow, I used to
    >walk past one on the way to a more general gaming store quite a bit,
    but
    >I had no idea what Warhammer was back then. Back then, wargames to me
    >meant lots of chits, dice, and a manual thicker than all my college
    >textbooks stacked together.

    Of course, Warhammer is cumbersome in its own way. :) But it's fun,
    anyway.

    >> I and the handful of female Warhammer/40K players I know usually
    have
    >> been drawn into the game because we have other friends who play it,
    and
    >> through _them_ we can see the appeal of collecting the minis and
    >> playing a strategy wargame.

    > My wife really does love the detail of the models and has enjoyed
    > painting them. And I've enjoyed getting to spend time painting with
    her
    > to boot.

    Getting to paint with someone is nice. I am far more a hobbyist than a
    player, although I obviously like to play too. The SOBs are not "easy"
    to paint, but there is a great deal of satisfaction I feel when I
    finally have a finished product.

    > But I doubt she'd have been as keen about the models if the Sisters
    > didn't have full armor and guns as big as the other 40K warriors.

    Oh, absolutely! Actually, I love them because they kick butt _and_ are
    fun to paint.

    >> And back to the "if there were more female players, there would be
    more
    >> female models..." idea... come _on_, do you think more female models
    >> would turn most of the male players off? :)

    >Well, no, but hopefully these hypothetical female models would be
    >wearing more than power armor bikinis or the like!

    Well, they already made the Repentia (okay, carapace bikinis), so
    they'll have to come up with a new idea.

    >> Sorry for ranting... I just need to get that nonsense off my chest.
    I
    >> am _not_ the kind of person to point at a woman in a bikini and say
    >> "THAT'S SEXUAL DISCRIMINATION!" or any of that sort of nonsense. But
    I
    >> don't like being condescended to, and I don't like seeing women
    >> depicted in only one of two ways and always having to be separated
    from
    >> the men, because that's _stupid_--and that's what GW does, and it
    sends
    >> a very bad message.

    >Yes, it is, and I really don't like the effect it has on *either*
    >gender. There are a lot of adolescents who play the game, after
    >all---do they really need to have reinforced that only men are capable

    >soldiers, that men are the backbone of civilization, or that women can

    >only fight if they're psychos or fundies?

    Exactly!

    >> That would be very cool. I want to write to them myself, but I need
    to
    >> figure out how to word the complaint coherently enough so they don't
    >> shrug me off as a raving girly-girl.

    >You've already made a lot of good points in your last two posts. Just
    >leave out the bits about the GW management never having been with
    women. :)

    Well thank you. I'll work on it. :)

    Death Quaker!
  11. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    <spam@deathquaker.org> wrote
    > and when you do see women
    > in GW products, they are lumped all together as if they were a separate
    > species and depicted in this bizarre, fetishistic holy virgin/raving
    > whore dichotomy (Sisters and Female Dark Eldar Wyches, for example).
    >
    > It makes me wonder if the folks at GW have ever actually had any sort
    > of real social contact with a female human being, as they obviously
    > seem to have little clue as to what to do with them.

    They're gamers who have nothing better to do than paint _every_ _single_ _mini_
    the 'eavy Metal Way, and you have to ask?
    :-)

    --
    - Ward.
    wardcb at earthlink dot net

    The "upper crust" is a bunch of crumbs held together by their dough.
  12. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    smithdoerr wrote:

    > From what I've heard pretty much all GW stores have rather bad
    customer
    > service regardless of the gender of the customer. The one and only
    time I
    > ventured into a GW store, after visiting two other independent stores
    who
    > were both out of the item I wanted so I was forced to buy it there, I
    got
    > the impression that they only teach their sales people how to sell to

    > spastic children.

    Now that's a shame. So perhaps the problem is that they don't know how
    to communicate with women, they just don't know how to communicate with
    adults, period?

    Really, it's amazing GW gets support for their product at all. It's a
    testament to the quality of the games themselves, when the customer
    service is so lacking.

    Death Quaker!
  13. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 spam@deathquaker.org wrote:

    >
    > Helicon_One wrote:
    >> Space marine implants only work in conjunction with hormones produced
    > by
    >> males going through puberty, in the official fluff.
    >
    > Yeah, but it's CHAOS. Shouldn't mutations and other demonic energies
    > allow the implant to mutate and respond to female hormones as well? (I
    > don't know the Chaos fiction well, this is just a stab at an argument.)
    >

    Not to mention there's going to be /somebody/ with PCOS or similar
    problems.

    --
    flippa@flippac.org

    A problem that's all in your head is still a problem.
    Brain damage is but one form of mind damage.
  14. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    <spam@deathquaker.org> wrote in message
    news:1105462505.654930.234440@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

    >>> It makes me wonder if the folks at GW have ever actually had any
    > sort
    >>> of real social contact with a female human being, as they obviously
    >>> seem to have little clue as to what to do with them. They certainly
    >>> don't train their store staff to handle them well...
    >
    >> That's really a shame. I've noticed that in comics and gaming stores,
    >
    >> it's become a lot more friendly to female shoppers. You'd think GW
    >> would realize they shouldn't alienate 50% of their potential
    > audience.
    >
    > Well, I think the problem is, they don't realize they're alienating
    > them.
    >
    > I will admit, I think it depends on the store. I did go to one in
    > Philadelphia once where the owner spoke to me like a fellow gamer, but
    > he was a slightly older fellow (probably a manager) and obviously
    > understood the concept of customer service. It's a shame that
    > experience has been the exception to the rule.

    From what I've heard pretty much all GW stores have rather bad customer
    service regardless of the gender of the customer. The one and only time I
    ventured into a GW store, after visiting two other independent stores who
    were both out of the item I wanted so I was forced to buy it there, I got
    the impression that they only teach their sales people how to sell to
    spastic children.

    --

    -smithdoerr
  15. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    spam@deathquaker.org wrote:
    > Tanks frustrate me, but then I think I got that opinion because the
    > first tank I assembled included Forgeworld bitz that were cut slightly
    > too small for what they were supposed to fit (the old ForgeWorld SoB
    > doors for rhinos and immolators).

    That happened with my first Predator, but I banged on the metal plate
    until it more or less fit. Um, because I wanted a battle worn Predator
    of course, not because I was frustrated at a fairly expensive tank kit
    not having perfectly fitting pieces. :)

    > I tried to do a search on the Online Store for Archons and got nothing
    > (not, of course, that there could ever be a flaw in the online store
    > search engine)--what list are they from?

    Sorry, I meant Dark Eldar Lords. I think they're divided into Archons
    and one other type. And there is a female Dark Eldar Lord model after
    all. One of the Haemonculus models may be, too, but it's kind of hard
    to tell. Same deal with the Incubi.

    > Of course, Warhammer is cumbersome in its own way. :) But it's fun,
    > anyway.

    Yeah, but at least it has cool illustrations, fluff, and examples. Oh,
    and really nifty models, which however require more money and assembly
    than a baggie full of chits, as it happens.
  16. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    <spam@deathquaker.org> wrote in message
    news:1105461653.386450.175510@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    >
    > Helicon_One wrote:
    > > <spam@deathquaker.org> wrote in message
    > > news:1105371268.363225.205670@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    > > > Ibn Tumart wrote:
    > >
    > > [Sorry for jumping in, my newsreader is playing up and I
    > > don't think I'm getting all the replies]
    >
    > No problem. Newsreaders do that.

    Mine more frequently than others, I think.

    > > > > Can troops fire inside an Immolator in 4th edition?
    > > >
    > > > Erm... I don't think so, but honestly, I haven't had my 4thEd book
    > too
    > > > long and I'm still making sense of some of the new rules.
    > >
    > > They can, it has a firepoint for 2 like the Rhino.
    >
    > Thanks.

    Its pretty useful too. I have fond memories of my Canoness rapid firing her
    plasma pistol out of the top hatch whilst still protected by AV11, and of
    driving into the middle of a cultist horde in another game and firing
    flamers out both sides. Toasted alot of heretics that day....

    > > > I had a Stormtrooper take out a
    > > > Landraider with a lucky shot from his grenade launcher... the
    > > > grenage
    > > > launcher alone has come in quite handy at times.
    > >
    > > That's beyond lucky, its downright impossible - you'd need to roll an
    > > 8 on 1d6 just to get a glancing hit with a krak grenade...
    >
    > Hmm... I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, so I can't
    > argue. To be honest, at the time, my opponent (an Outrider, no less)
    > was doing the math, so he may have well screwed himself over (he won
    > that game anyway; I made some bad choices).
    >
    > That, or I am misremembering how I destroyed the land raider--or am
    > misremembering that it was a landraider! It was one fight with an
    > opponent I usually don't play against, so I apologize if my poor memory
    > has lifted a Stormtrooper above and beyond his abilities. :)

    Blaming the Outrider seems a fairly safe option (as it is in most other
    circumstances).

    Of course, we could just put it down to Imperial Propaganda ;-)

    > > > Exactly. There are _two_ female Last Chancer models, but that's it.
    > > > I've thought--if I ever had any desire to play IG--I could use the
    > > > House Escher Models from Necromunda to mix in some female troops,
    > but
    > > > that's more work than it should be.
    > >
    > > There's a Tanith girl, and a limited edition female Catachan with
    > grenade
    > > launcher as well. Still not alot to go on.
    >
    > *nod* I think those are the ones I was thinking of, actually. "Warrior
    > Woman" and "Rocket Girl."
    >
    > And yes, still not much to work with.

    Like smithdoerr said, they are different models. There are 2 Last chancers,
    a Tanith girl, and a Catachan. Not exactly an infantry horde, is it? At a
    push there's also a female Inquisitor and a Sister Hospitallier. We could
    just assume that the Imperial Guard regiments that models have been released
    for aren't equal opportunities employers, I guess (telling the women to stay
    at home and make more little guardsmen to throw at Chaos marines seems quite
    fitting to the Imperial mindset, actually).

    > > > why
    > > > not some female Chaos Space Marines?
    > > > I'm sure Chaos doesn't discriminate.

    > > Space marine implants only work in conjunction with hormones produced
    > > by males going through puberty, in the official fluff.
    >
    > Yeah, but it's CHAOS. Shouldn't mutations and other demonic energies
    > allow the implant to mutate and respond to female hormones as well? (I
    > don't know the Chaos fiction well, this is just a stab at an argument.)

    Chaos still use geneseed to create more Marines, and by its very nature
    mutation will be a random process which may not create something that works
    properly (if at all) - and even if CSM geneseed did spontaneously mutate
    into a female-friendly form, there's no reason anybody would know about it,
    and why implant precious rare geneseed into a female body just on a crazy
    whim when it had never worked before?

    > Beside which, that "official fluff" about Space Marines can be only men
    > is just more "justified" discriminatory BS GW players shouldn't have to
    > put up with. Why bother to add in a detail like that when it just makes
    > things more restrictive?

    Well, its the Imperium that is being discriminatory in this instance, not GW
    ;-). There are female Eldar models, Tau gender is supposed to be
    indistinguishable to human eyes so they can be female if you want them to
    be, and I think Orks are asexual.

    Anyway, restrictive to some degree is good - otherwise we'd end up facing
    combined EldarOrkMarineTyanid armies where every model had 10 guns.
    Particular armies are defined as much by their restrictions as their
    abilities - Space Marines don't come in hordes because of their points cost,
    Sisters don't shoot well at long range, Tau are hopeless in combat.

    Tim
    --
    ----------------
    Criticizing the current administration is a treasonable offence!
    The dept of "Homeland Security" has been informed of your
    activities and will arrive shortly to pick you up. Please wrap
    a towel around your head and stand out in front of your home
    with a burning US flag so they can find you.
    - smithdoerr - Usenet out-take

    www.rgmw.org - the RGMW FAQ, ignore at your peril!

    Currently listening to: 'Zombie Crew' - Send More Paramedics
  17. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    In article <1105476806.899791.46610@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
    spam@deathquaker.org says...
    >
    > *takes a looksee at the online store* Ah! Yes, the Tanith female is
    > very cool looking. That's the kind of model I'd like to see more of.
    > Obviously female without being ridiculously cheesy. Couldn't find the
    > Catachan figure.

    I've got a pic of her at http://www.hotkey.net.au/~bjhann/gallery/hq.jpg
    Second from the right. Not a great pic, admittedly.

    Brad

    --
    Don't bother with the yahoo address - I never read it.
    bjhann at hotkey dot net dot au
  18. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    Helicon_One wrote:
    > <spam@deathquaker.org> wrote in message
    > news:1105461653.386450.175510@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    >>Helicon_One wrote:
    >>><spam@deathquaker.org> wrote in message
    >>>news:1105371268.363225.205670@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    >>>>Ibn Tumart wrote:
    >>>[Sorry for jumping in, my newsreader is playing up and I
    >>>don't think I'm getting all the replies]

    <snip>

    > Like smithdoerr said, they are different models. There are 2 Last chancers,
    > a Tanith girl, and a Catachan. Not exactly an infantry horde, is it? At a
    > push there's also a female Inquisitor and a Sister Hospitallier. We could
    > just assume that the Imperial Guard regiments that models have been released
    > for aren't equal opportunities employers, I guess (telling the women to stay
    > at home and make more little guardsmen to throw at Chaos marines seems quite
    > fitting to the Imperial mindset, actually).

    I think the attitude is supposed to vary by regiment. Some have female
    members, others hold to a more 'traditional' attitude.

    --
    =/\= Lt. Cmdr. Jim =/\=
    By our chocolate, shall they know us.
    Not on behalf of any committee, real or imaginary, in this or any other
    universe.
  19. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    "Lt. Cmdr. Jim" <ltcmdrjim@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:34n45eF4dfeu2U1@individual.net...
    > Helicon_One wrote:
    >> <spam@deathquaker.org> wrote in message
    >> news:1105461653.386450.175510@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    >>>Helicon_One wrote:
    >>>><spam@deathquaker.org> wrote in message
    >>>>news:1105371268.363225.205670@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    >>>>>Ibn Tumart wrote:
    >>>>[Sorry for jumping in, my newsreader is playing up and I
    >>>>don't think I'm getting all the replies]
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    >> Like smithdoerr said, they are different models. There are 2 Last
    >> chancers,
    >> a Tanith girl, and a Catachan. Not exactly an infantry horde, is it? At a
    >> push there's also a female Inquisitor and a Sister Hospitallier. We could
    >> just assume that the Imperial Guard regiments that models have been
    >> released
    >> for aren't equal opportunities employers, I guess (telling the women to
    >> stay
    >> at home and make more little guardsmen to throw at Chaos marines seems
    >> quite
    >> fitting to the Imperial mindset, actually).
    >
    > I think the attitude is supposed to vary by regiment. Some have female
    > members, others hold to a more 'traditional' attitude.

    Interesting enough it says in the Guard Codex that birthrate and draft rate
    of cadia is the same. Everyone goes to the military and yet there are only
    male figures to be bought in GW...

    --
    Ecke

    Newsgroup FAQ @ http://www.rgmw.org

    Due to technology humankind produced weapons of mass destruction. Without
    technology it would just take a bit longer.
  20. Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

    smithdoerr wrote:
    <snip>
    > From what I've heard pretty much all GW stores have rather bad customer
    > service regardless of the gender of the customer. The one and only time I
    > ventured into a GW store, after visiting two other independent stores who
    > were both out of the item I wanted so I was forced to buy it there, I got
    > the impression that they only teach their sales people how to sell to
    > spastic children.
    >
    That is ceratinly the case at the closest GW store to me (Ontario, CA)I
    picked up my box of gaunts for testing of color combos and after talking
    to one red shirt (while I was holding said box of gaunts) if I played
    Games Workshop games. I said yes, 3000 points of Space marines over the
    last 20 years. Then he tried to get me to buy a command squad. Anyaway,
    I make it to the cash register and am ready to gleefully pay my $30 +
    7.75% sales tax, and he asks me in slightly annoyed manner for my name
    and address. I stare at him doubfounded for a coule of secinds and say
    "why?" he replies somewhat nastily "So we can know who you are" (beause
    we all know GW would never offer any specials) "what if I don't want to
    tell you?" Now he is indignant "I *can* just charge you for the time'
    like he was doing me a favor by not requiring my personal infromation. I
    nearly put it back and left. Gaah! My local store is merely uncaring not
    rude!
    -Joe
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