[40k] Opinions on Dark Eldar wanted

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>"Keep on charging the enemy so long as there is life."
>
>I have never seen a fortune cookie without some kind of sappy
>"inspirational" comment on it, so that struck me as being pretty odd.
>Then I flipped over the slip of paper to see what the Chinese word
>was. It was "Mushroom".
>
>I nearly fell out of my chair laughing.
>
>And I can provide a scan of the slip if you need it. I keep the
thing
>in my pocket so I can show people that even God wants me to keep
>playing Orks.

Do you remember to cover the "(c) Games Workshop 2004" byline?

> I
>>>suggest having a look at the Ork Klans lists in a recent White
Dwarf (I
>>>play Death Skullz).
>
>Anyone know where I can get this article? I missed that WD and have
>had no luck finding it since.

Don't have the reference offhand - see if it's in GW's White Dwarf
archive on the UK website (www.games-workshop.co.uk). I think I might
have seen it there. I wouldn't be too bothered, though - mostly
they're very minor variations on the main list with one or more units
compulsory, most others restricted and in some cases (Deathskulls and
Blood Axes with Looted Vehicles for instance) restrictions removed.
There are no actual new rules, though you do need the Feral Ork list
to play Snakebites.

>>Can you compensate for the worst BS in the game? Sure. Does it make
them
>>shoot well? No. It makes them a gimmick army. You will have to
>>compromise on numbers to get the points to squeeze all those Big
Shootas
>>and Rokkits into the army.
>
>Beg to differ, but I've never been short on Orks and I've always got
a
>ton of big shootas.

And when have big shootas and rokkit launchers been gimmicks anyway?
You might as well say that Marines are awful against vehicles - sure,
they *can* take things like lascannon and missile launchers, but that
turns them into a gimmick army. Besides, an Ork heavy weapon costs,
what, 10pts? So a mob with three loses three potential Orks, not
precisely significant when talking in terms of average mob sizes being
15-20.

> They are definitely useful weapons, since they
>are Assault 3. With the new rules, that means you can let rip with
>these boys to soften up a target and then charge right in.

You could do that with the old rules too... They can still only charge
in if armed with sluggas (as those wanting to charge usually will be,
admittedly).

>> They don't outshoot IG or Tau very often
>
>Like never.

>Oh, don't say that! I tore up an IG army with big shootas once.
>Wasn't much left to charge when I got into HTH, so I mopped that army
>up good.

Yes, but Ork Hunters were never great... Oh, you mean *you* had the
big shootas?

Philip Bowles

 

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Philip Bowles wrote:

> And when have big shootas and rokkit launchers been gimmicks anyway?

They are not, in and of themselves. Taking as many as you can of them in
the hopes of catching an opponent unawares makes them a gimmick army.
Most people will expect an Ork army to assault; if you take a shooting
tooled army they won't expect that. It's like Rock, Paper and Scissors.

> You might as well say that Marines are awful against vehicles - sure,
> they *can* take things like lascannon and missile launchers, but that
> turns them into a gimmick army.

I'd hardly call Marines "awful" against vehicles. You will only have to
take one Lascannon in a Marine army to be the equal of two to three in
an Ork army, due to the aforementioned awful BS. You rarely see a Marine
army tooled for shooting to the max; they don't need to.

I would, however, class things like an Iron Warriors army list with 9
Oblits, Basalisk, Vindie, Pred Annihilator and Land Raider with a
Lascannon in every squad and a unit of Chosen with max Lascannons as a
"gimmick" army.

>>They are definitely useful weapons, since they
>>are Assault 3. With the new rules, that means you can let rip with
>>these boys to soften up a target and then charge right in.
>
> You could do that with the old rules too... They can still only charge
> in if armed with sluggas (as those wanting to charge usually will be,
> admittedly).

Yeah, but now you don't lose the added attack on the assault for
shooting them. ;-)

 

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In article <ubOdnW_sVqL0UXjcRVn-vw@comcast.com>, Hive Tyrant
<richbusby@hatespam.comcast.net> writes:

>Philip Bowles wrote:
>
>> And when have big shootas and rokkit launchers been gimmicks anyway?
>
>They are not, in and of themselves. Taking as many as you can of them in
>the hopes of catching an opponent unawares makes them a gimmick army.

All armies take as many heavy/special weapons as their unit entries allow as a
matter of course - Orks just happen to be allowed three heavies rather than the
more common one heavy/one special.

>Most people will expect an Ork army to assault; if you take a shooting
>tooled army they won't expect that.

Still no gimmicks involved. By and large people expect vanilla Marines to be
shooty, but I wouldn't call an assault-based Ultramarine army a gimmick. Orks
aren't Tau or Tyranids - they're designed to be capable of fighting both at
range and up close, albeit with a preference for assault.

>> You might as well say that Marines are awful against vehicles - sure,
>> they *can* take things like lascannon and missile launchers, but that
>> turns them into a gimmick army.
>
>I'd hardly call Marines "awful" against vehicles. You will only have to
>take one Lascannon in a Marine army to be the equal of two to three in
>an Ork army, due to the aforementioned awful BS. You rarely see a Marine
>army tooled for shooting to the max; they don't need to.
>

Interestingly, you very rarely see Tac or Devastator squads with fewer than
their full complement of heavy/special weapons - I don't recall seeing many Dev
squads with two or three heavies rather than four, for instance.

Philip Bowles

 

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P Bowles wrote:

> All armies take as many heavy/special weapons as their unit entries allow as a
> matter of course - Orks just happen to be allowed three heavies rather than the
> more common one heavy/one special.

*ALL* armies take every heavy weapon they can? Man you must have a tough
crowd there. I'd hate to see the Iron Warriors lists that come out of
your group. So all your Necron players take 3 Monoliths, 30 Immortals
and 15 Destroyers? All your Eldar players max out on Star Cannons? I've
seen Eldar lists with 36 Star Cannons in them. Definate gimmick army.

As BS skill drops, the point return for shooting weapons follows. Space
Marines and Dark Eldar get a hell of a lot more out of the points costs
for their weapons than Orks do because they hit more frequently!

>>Most people will expect an Ork army to assault; if you take a shooting
>>tooled army they won't expect that.
>
> Still no gimmicks involved. By and large people expect vanilla Marines to be
> shooty, but I wouldn't call an assault-based Ultramarine army a gimmick. Orks
> aren't Tau or Tyranids - they're designed to be capable of fighting both at
> range and up close, albeit with a preference for assault.

Whatever... BS2 = lousy shooting. Can you shoot? Sure. Will you hit
anything? Another story. If you try to take a stand up and shoot Ork
army against a stand up and shoot Tau, IG or SM army you're going to
lose most of the time.

And on the subject of Marines... they are the "starter" army. The
training wheels, if you will. They are designed and point costed to be
the best all around army in the game, and are just as capable of being
assaulty as shooty. At most RTT and other games its rare *NOT* to see a
Space Marine army with a couple of tooled up Assault Squads combined
with four shooty tac squads and a couple of tanks.


> Interestingly, you very rarely see Tac or Devastator squads with fewer than
> their full complement of heavy/special weapons - I don't recall seeing many Dev
> squads with two or three heavies rather than four, for instance.

*WHEN* you see a Devastator squad. That's the whole point of taking a
Dev squad, so you can pack 4 heavies in there. You also pay through the
nose for the weapons. We will likely see them a bit more now that 4th
Edition has nerfed vehicles somewhat.

Sure, a SM army can load up on Lascannons, Missle Launchers and such.
That's what they were designed to do, what people play them with all the
time, and what you expect to see. That very thing is what makes that
particular list NOT a gimmick army. Now let's take that army and put
min. Tac squads for each troop choice with a Razorback for each, three
Land Raiders and nine Speeders. *NOW* it's a gimmick army. Hmm... I
should play that list sometime...

 

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Hive Tyrant wrote:
> P Bowles wrote:
>
>> All armies take as many heavy/special weapons as their unit entries
>> allow as a
>> matter of course - Orks just happen to be allowed three heavies rather
>> than the
>> more common one heavy/one special.
>
> *ALL* armies take every heavy weapon they can? Man you must have a tough
> crowd there. I'd hate to see the Iron Warriors lists that come out of
> your group. So all your Necron players take 3 Monoliths, 30 Immortals
> and 15 Destroyers? All your Eldar players max out on Star Cannons? I've
> seen Eldar lists with 36 Star Cannons in them. Definate gimmick army.

I read "All armies take as many heavy/special weapons as their unit
entries allow" as "each unit taken which has the option to take x
heavy/special weapons *will* take x heavy/special weapons"

> As BS skill drops, the point return for shooting weapons follows. Space
> Marines and Dark Eldar get a hell of a lot more out of the points costs
> for their weapons than Orks do because they hit more frequently!

I don't have codicies handy, but IIRC, an ork with a Rokkit launcher is
about 13-14 pts, so two are 26-28, and a marine with a missile launcher
is about 25. BS2 will hit half as often as BS4, and the weapons have
the same Str and AP (assuming Krak), so 2 orks get roughly the same
shooting effect per point as the one space marine.

>>> Most people will expect an Ork army to assault; if you take a
>>> shooting tooled army they won't expect that.
>>
>> Still no gimmicks involved. By and large people expect vanilla Marines
>> to be
>> shooty, but I wouldn't call an assault-based Ultramarine army a
>> gimmick. Orks
>> aren't Tau or Tyranids - they're designed to be capable of fighting
>> both at
>> range and up close, albeit with a preference for assault.
>
> Whatever... BS2 = lousy shooting. Can you shoot? Sure. Will you hit
> anything? Another story. If you try to take a stand up and shoot Ork
> army against a stand up and shoot Tau, IG or SM army you're going to
> lose most of the time.

A single shot at BS2 is pretty poor, a whole bucketload of shooting at
BS2 is a different kettle of squig (do you cook squig in kettles? Are
squig even edible to non-orks?). Besides which, an ork shooty force is
likely to use the shooting as a prelude to mopping up in assault, why do
you think all those weapons are Assault, not Heavy?

--
=/\= Lt. Cmdr. Jim =/\=
By our chocolate, shall they know us.
Not on behalf of any committee, real or imaginary, in this or any other
universe.

 

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"P Bowles" <pbowles@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20050113030458.09981.00000020@mb-m18.aol.com...
> In article <ubOdnW_sVqL0UXjcRVn-vw@comcast.com>, Hive Tyrant
> <richbusby@hatespam.comcast.net> writes:
>
> >Philip Bowles wrote:
> >
> >> And when have big shootas and rokkit launchers been gimmicks anyway?
> >
> >They are not, in and of themselves. Taking as many as you can of them in
> >the hopes of catching an opponent unawares makes them a gimmick army.
>
> All armies take as many heavy/special weapons as their unit entries allow
as a
> matter of course - Orks just happen to be allowed three heavies rather
than the
> more common one heavy/one special.

well, there's also the fact that there's no distinction between heavy and
special weapons in the ork army; they combine the better aspects of both,
which is necessary because of their cruddy BS.

> >> You might as well say that Marines are awful against vehicles - sure,
> >> they *can* take things like lascannon and missile launchers, but that
> >> turns them into a gimmick army.
> >
> >I'd hardly call Marines "awful" against vehicles. You will only have to
> >take one Lascannon in a Marine army to be the equal of two to three in
> >an Ork army, due to the aforementioned awful BS. You rarely see a Marine
> >army tooled for shooting to the max; they don't need to.
> >
>
> Interestingly, you very rarely see Tac or Devastator squads with fewer
than
> their full complement of heavy/special weapons - I don't recall seeing
many Dev
> squads with two or three heavies rather than four, for instance.

but then that's the whole point of devastator squads. if you're not going
to take 4 heavy weapons then you may as well just get 2 small tactical
squads instead.