[Epic] !st Game of Armageddon

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OK PLayed my first game of Armageddon Epic last week. Thought I'd ruminate
a little on it.

First up, I liked both the original Epic (ie Adeptus Titanicus/Space
Marine/Codex Titanicus) and Epic40K for different reasons and missed 2nd
Edition completely as I never came into contact with it. THe original
was great for the smell of the oil, buckets of dice and big bold battles,
Epic40K was a nice solid tactical game, though a little short. So that
establishes some biases.

Epic:A seems to have pitched nicely in the middle - we are back to
datasheets with several stats allowing a bit more variation and fine tuned
units - OK Epic said this made little tactical difference but it felt
nice...and the demand was obviously there as ever more Epic40K units came
out with new special abilities to define such slight changes.

THe battle consisted of Me (Eldar) vs my opponent with Space Marines.
He had a devastators squad (4stands plus rhinos), 2 tac units (6-8 stands
plus rhinos), 4 Land Raiders and a set of assault marines.
I was facing them with 3 night spinners, a webway holding 8 aspects (4
banshees, 4 firedragons), a guardian host of guardians plus farseer and 3
support plus 3 d Cannons, a unit of 6 jetbikes and a unit of 3 jetbikes
and 3 Vypers and finally 4 rangers in a unit.

1500points each on a 6x4 table

We setup facing terrain down the midline of building and a hill of the
table edge plus each having a little terrain to protect the objective at
the baseline.

He had LRs on my left flank, tacs and devs in the centre and tacs plus
assault on my right near to the webway which was nearly on halfway.

I pretty much ignored my left flank, set up nightspinners central, with
the jetbikes nearby, the guardian host setup on the right of centre
with cannon to the rear. The right flank was covered by the bikes/vypers
with the webway ahead of them.
The rangers setup dead centre in buildings as a garrison.

All looked nice, in the first turn the marines crashed forwards with their
infantry, the nightspinners put 5 blast markers on the tac unit on my
right. Then I tried to put a bike unit in place to support the ranges who
started a firefight. End result rangers dead bike unit shortly thereafter
wiped out by devastator and tac marines. On the right the aspects howled
out of the webway and then backwards after a short firefight.

Turn 2 was short and bloody. My guardian host tried to hold the line
against most of a tac unit and a devastator unit. THe cannon took out
infantry in the open and a rhino or two breaking the devastator unit but
ultimately took so many blast markers they nearly broke and were faced
with a near intact tac unit. On the right side jetbike plus vypers put up
a massive amount of damage and routed the tac unit they faced. The assualt
troops however stayed their ground. THe bike left to grab the enemy
baseline objective. Night Spinner central was dropping blast markers like
confetti, hence why the marines had broken on the right. THey also took a
full alpha strike from 4 landraiders for the result of on eblast
marker...I feel I cannot rely on that happening in the future.

Turn 3 ended the game, the guardians died, the aspects ran away and the
night spinners were wiped out, leaving only few jetbikes holding one
objective.

I went away feeling that the game was too short for my tastes, though the
low points count and the small table size may have limited the options and
space for manoeuvre and made the fight last less time than it should, and
I'd like to play with around 2-3000 on an 8x4 to see how that played.

Im not sure I took the best troop selection to face Space Marines, but I
was using someoen else's models and everyone playing (the game had been
duplicated beforehand) was a novice. Looking later at the troops I think
some armour transports for the guardians would have been better, and I
think I should have chosen Hawks for my aspects. The webway probably was
an unecessary luxury.

Firefights are central do or die moments in this game. You must decide
when, where and how to enter close engagement and whether it is to be
true close combat or firefights. Eldar need to use mobilutry to win these
and I failed to do this with my jetbikes, who should have concentrated
themselves to support the Aspect assault then swung back to deal with the
centre. Its good to have such options in a game. Marines are a very
different army...I think I would have used the Land Raiders differently
had I controlled them - those lascannon are just too useful.

In all it seems to be an interesting compromise between 1st and 3rd
edition Epic. PLenty of stats in there to allow just those shades more
control....I could smell that oil again, yet wasnt bent and bowed over by
hundreds of dice rolls. Though for engagements....a piece of paper to note
the rolls is essential - do that and they trot along nicely.

I think I need more space and bigger guns.

Tim
--
When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
ICQ: 5178568
 
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Tim Fitzmaurice <tjf11@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<Pine.SOC.4.61.0504221551050.28523@virgo.cus.cam.ac.uk>...
> OK PLayed my first game of Armageddon Epic last week. Thought I'd ruminate
> a little on it.
>
> First up, I liked both the original Epic (ie Adeptus Titanicus/Space
> Marine/Codex Titanicus) and Epic40K for different reasons and missed 2nd
> Edition completely as I never came into contact with it. THe original
> was great for the smell of the oil, buckets of dice and big bold battles,
> Epic40K was a nice solid tactical game, though a little short. So that
> establishes some biases.
>
> Epic:A seems to have pitched nicely in the middle - we are back to
> datasheets with several stats allowing a bit more variation and fine tuned
> units - OK Epic said this made little tactical difference but it felt
> nice...and the demand was obviously there as ever more Epic40K units came
> out with new special abilities to define such slight changes.
>
> THe battle consisted of Me (Eldar) vs my opponent with Space Marines.
> He had a devastators squad (4stands plus rhinos), 2 tac units (6-8 stands
> plus rhinos), 4 Land Raiders and a set of assault marines.
> I was facing them with 3 night spinners, a webway holding 8 aspects (4
> banshees, 4 firedragons), a guardian host of guardians plus farseer and 3
> support plus 3 d Cannons, a unit of 6 jetbikes and a unit of 3 jetbikes
> and 3 Vypers and finally 4 rangers in a unit.

As a note, it's helpful to present these as a list - both for ease of
reference and for people to comment on your selections. Also, why no
Avatar? So, your selections were:

Webway portal

Guardian Host:
Farseer
4 Guardians
3 Heavy Weapon platforms
3 Support Weapon platforms

Aspect Warrior Host:
4 Howling Banshees
4 Fire Dragons
No Exarchs?

Night Spinner Troupe: 3 Night Spinners

Wind Rider Troupe: 6 Jetbikes

Wind Rider Troupe: 3 Jetbikes, 3 Vypers

Ranger Troupe: 4 Rangers

The truth is, this isn't a very good selection. Close-range units
(Aspects and Guardians) need transport - Guardian infantry with heavy
weapons are respectable as fighters, but as you found out, without the
numbers of IG infantry companies or the resilience of Space Marines
they can't hold their own in a firefight for long. Jetbikes and Vypers
are a poor mix - go for all one or all the other. Adding Vypers to a
bike unit (a) makes it vulnerable to AT fire (b) reduces its firefight
ability and (c) encourages you to use orders that allow you to
move-and-fire, while jetbikes just need to race to the enemy and get
stuck in. As you found out, the Night Spinners are the only great
selection you have here.

> 1500points each on a 6x4 table
>
> We setup facing terrain down the midline of building and a hill of the
> table edge plus each having a little terrain to protect the objective at
> the baseline.
>
> He had LRs on my left flank, tacs and devs in the centre and tacs plus
> assault on my right near to the webway which was nearly on halfway.
>
> I pretty much ignored my left flank, set up nightspinners central, with
> the jetbikes nearby, the guardian host setup on the right of centre
> with cannon to the rear.

Not good - that deployment means that your heavy weapons will get
suppressed first. Sandwich the weapon platforms between Guardians if
at all possible, so that you have some to the fore to take hits and
one or two behind to absorb blast markers (not easy with only four
Guardians and one Farseer, admittedly).

The right flank was covered by the bikes/vypers
> with the webway ahead of them.
> The rangers setup dead centre in buildings as a garrison.
>
> All looked nice, in the first turn the marines crashed forwards with their
> infantry, the nightspinners put 5 blast markers on the tac unit on my
> right. Then I tried to put a bike unit in place to support the ranges who
> started a firefight.

This is what mounted Guardian Hosts are for - weight of attacks and,
importantly, the Farseer's Commander ability to allow them to assault
simultaneously with bikes or other fast units.

End result rangers dead bike unit shortly thereafter
> wiped out by devastator and tac marines. On the right the aspects howled
> out of the webway and then backwards after a short firefight.
>
> Turn 2 was short and bloody. My guardian host tried to hold the line
> against most of a tac unit and a devastator unit. T

You weren't making use of Hit & Run to keep them in cover between
turns?

> I went away feeling that the game was too short for my tastes, though the
> low points count and the small table size may have limited the options and
> space for manoeuvre and made the fight last less time than it should, and
> I'd like to play with around 2-3000 on an 8x4 to see how that played.

2,700 is the official tournament size (just large enough to allow a
Warlord Titan in the IG/SM support allowance, in case you're wondering
about the odd size).

> Im not sure I took the best troop selection to face Space Marines, but I
> was using someoen else's models and everyone playing (the game had been
> duplicated beforehand) was a novice. Looking later at the troops I think
> some armour transports for the guardians would have been better, and I
> think I should have chosen Hawks for my aspects. The webway probably was
> an unecessary luxury.

Hawks aren't ideal - they're fast, but the units are small (no ability
to take transports) and they can't be combined with other Aspects
effectively. What you needed was transports, Exarchs and preferably
Dire Avengers in place of the Banshees. My favoured combination would
be 4 Avengers, 2 Dragons and 2 Scorpions or Spiders; these are all
excellent firefighting units, while Scorpions and Spiders are also
strong in close combat and heavily-armoured. As a personal bias, I
also think the new Fire Dragons have the best models of any Epic
Aspect.

> Firefights are central do or die moments in this game.

Very much so - long range firepower is there to smash dangerous things
like war machines and to pave the way for the firefights, especially
for the Eldar who are at their strongest within 15cm (though it may
not have seemed that way to you...)

You must decide
> when, where and how to enter close engagement and whether it is to be
> true close combat or firefights. Eldar need to use mobilutry to win these
> and I failed to do this with my jetbikes, who should have concentrated
> themselves to support the Aspect assault then swung back to deal with the
> centre. Its good to have such options in a game. Marines are a very
> different army...I think I would have used the Land Raiders differently
> had I controlled them - those lascannon are just too useful.

You had practically no tanks, so in your opponent's position the Land
Raiders would have been more use as transports or ablative armour than
firebases.

> In all it seems to be an interesting compromise between 1st and 3rd
> edition Epic.

The idea was to be a compromise between 2nd and 3rd Ed... Also, try
making use of flyers in future games - the Eldar have some very good
ones (think of a Phoenix squadron as a Night Spinner battery that's
hard to kill and has decent anti-tank power to boot).

PLenty of stats in there to allow just those shades more
> control....I could smell that oil again, yet wasnt bent and bowed over by
> hundreds of dice rolls. Though for engagements....a piece of paper to note
> the rolls is essential - do that and they trot along nicely.
>
> I think I need more space and bigger guns.

Disrupt artillery is a huge strength for the Eldar, and all their
macro-weapon attacks don't hurt either.

Philip Bowles
 
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On Sat, 22 Apr 2005, Philip Bowles wrote:

>> THe battle consisted of Me (Eldar) vs my opponent with Space Marines.
>> He had a devastators squad (4stands plus rhinos), 2 tac units (6-8 stands
>> plus rhinos), 4 Land Raiders and a set of assault marines.
>> I was facing them with 3 night spinners, a webway holding 8 aspects (4
>> banshees, 4 firedragons), a guardian host of guardians plus farseer and 3
>> support plus 3 d Cannons, a unit of 6 jetbikes and a unit of 3 jetbikes
>> and 3 Vypers and finally 4 rangers in a unit.
>
> As a note, it's helpful to present these as a list - both for ease of
> reference and for people to comment on your selections. Also, why no
> Avatar? So, your selections were:

The game was set up primarily as a learn the rules for the four people
playing. The previous game had used a slightly different Eldar setup and
had been close, but I was primarily reliant on anohter persons models for
play that night so I just tweaked a little....some were bad, some were
useful

> Webway portal
> Guardian Host:
> Farseer
> 4 Guardians
> 3 Heavy Weapon platforms
> 3 Support Weapon platforms
>
> Aspect Warrior Host:
> 4 Howling Banshees
> 4 Fire Dragons
> No Exarchs?

No, no exarchs. No figures and 5 minutes to do the tweaks....

> Night Spinner Troupe: 3 Night Spinners
> Wind Rider Troupe: 6 Jetbikes
> Wind Rider Troupe: 3 Jetbikes, 3 Vypers
> Ranger Troupe: 4 Rangers
>
> The truth is, this isn't a very good selection. Close-range units
> (Aspects and Guardians) need transport

The aspects came out of the webway, right into the teeth of the enemy. SO
I left them transportless so they could fit. The objective was close to an
SM objective near the midline on the flank so it was sort of begging for a
set of aspects. It would have worked but for some appalling rolls.

> they can't hold their own in a firefight for long. Jetbikes and Vypers
> are a poor mix - go for all one or all the other. Adding Vypers to a
> bike unit (a) makes it vulnerable to AT fire (b) reduces its firefight
> ability and (c) encourages you to use orders that allow you to

Yes, that didnt actually crop up but now you mention it that mixing is a
really bad idea....

> Not good - that deployment means that your heavy weapons will get
> suppressed first. Sandwich the weapon platforms between Guardians if

Pretty much what happened. The solution you mentioned was one I tried to
instigate, lost the sustained fire bonus for that turn but got more guns
firing but moving some guardians backwards.

> This is what mounted Guardian Hosts are for - weight of attacks and,
> importantly, the Farseer's Commander ability to allow them to assault
> simultaneously with bikes or other fast units.

Yes I think a redesign is seriously called for.....

>> Turn 2 was short and bloody. My guardian host tried to hold the line
>> against most of a tac unit and a devastator unit. T
>
> You weren't making use of Hit & Run to keep them in cover between
> turns?

They pretty much had forted up in buildings inb the centre and were firing
from there. However Im not aware of the Hit & Run option....or at least
nbot by that name...

> Hawks aren't ideal - they're fast, but the units are small (no ability
> to take transports) and they can't be combined with other Aspects
> effectively. What you needed was transports, Exarchs and preferably
> Dire Avengers in place of the Banshees. My favoured combination would

Afterwards I considered Reapers en masse on overwatch as an option. You
prefer scorps over banshees for close combat? The Exarchs, yes, they were
lacking definitely...

> The idea was to be a compromise between 2nd and 3rd Ed... Also, try
> making use of flyers in future games - the Eldar have some very good
> ones (think of a Phoenix squadron as a Night Spinner battery that's
> hard to kill and has decent anti-tank power to boot).

Sounds useful....we had agreed not to complicate things for our first game
with using flyer.

> Disrupt artillery is a huge strength for the Eldar, and all their
> macro-weapon attacks don't hurt either.

DIsrupt stuff I would use in great quantities, its handy against anything
and against the SMs sticking wads of markers on them did have a great deal
of use when the close stuff came up.

Tim
--
When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
ICQ: 5178568
 
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Tim Fitzmaurice <tjf11@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<Pine.SOC.4.61.0504251220000.896@virgo.cus.cam.ac.uk>...
> On Sat, 22 Apr 2005, Philip Bowles wrote:

> > Night Spinner Troupe: 3 Night Spinners
> > Wind Rider Troupe: 6 Jetbikes
> > Wind Rider Troupe: 3 Jetbikes, 3 Vypers
> > Ranger Troupe: 4 Rangers
> >
> > The truth is, this isn't a very good selection. Close-range units
> > (Aspects and Guardians) need transport
>
> The aspects came out of the webway, right into the teeth of the enemy. SO
> I left them transportless so they could fit.

With transports you wouldn't have needed the webway at all, so you get
a 50pt 'discount' on the Serpents. Eldar transports aren't Rhinos -
they're not just boxes on wheels but dead weight in combat. Unlike
other races' transports they're handy in a firefight, and have good
ranged attacks. Plus they're more versatile - okay, you're out of the
webway. You've won the ensuing combat and driven the enemy off. Then
you sit twiddling your thumbs waiting to get shot. Also, when you do
introduce fliers, the Vampire can land Aspects anywhere with minimal
risk (if the enemy has 6 Hunters, none suppressed and all in range as
it makes the attack run, it's still got a 50% chance of surviving on 1
damage point long enough to drop its troops). Given that no SM
detachment can have more than one AA unit, it's unlikely they'll be
able to concentrate their fire even that effectively, and you get to
make excellent use of Warp Spiders' infiltrate move.

> > Not good - that deployment means that your heavy weapons will get
> > suppressed first. Sandwich the weapon platforms between Guardians if
>
> Pretty much what happened. The solution you mentioned was one I tried to
> instigate, lost the sustained fire bonus for that turn but got more guns
> firing but moving some guardians backwards.

If you can stump up the points Wraithguard make great 'shock
absorbers' - place them up front to take the hits, the Guardians at
the rear to be suppressed and the platforms in the middle.

> >> Turn 2 was short and bloody. My guardian host tried to hold the line
> >> against most of a tac unit and a devastator unit. T
> >
> > You weren't making use of Hit & Run to keep them in cover between
> > turns?
>
> They pretty much had forted up in buildings inb the centre and were firing
> from there. However Im not aware of the Hit & Run option....or at least
> nbot by that name...

Maybe they changed the name in the final version of Swordwind - Eldar
have the ability to move, fire, then move again when using orders that
allow multiple moves, rather than having to move-move-fire. True, you
don't get sustained fire, but the Eldar are respectable enough shots
and their formations are not well-suited to static firing matches.

> > Hawks aren't ideal - they're fast, but the units are small (no ability
> > to take transports) and they can't be combined with other Aspects
> > effectively. What you needed was transports, Exarchs and preferably
> > Dire Avengers in place of the Banshees. My favoured combination would
>
> Afterwards I considered Reapers en masse on overwatch as an option.

I'm still not sure how Reapers should be used effectively - their lack
of anti-tank power makes them very inflexible at range, and there are
better options in a firefight. Their need to stay away from the enemy
where possible makes them a poor complement to the other Aspects.
They're well-supported by Falcons, but that's a prohibitively
expensive option.

You
> prefer scorps over banshees for close combat?

Very much so. Banshees seem among the least useful Aspects; first
strike by itself is not a very useful ability (on the other hand,
first strike with infiltration, so that you have some freedom to
choose which enemies to get close to before first striking, is another
matter) - extra attacks are always best, and you have better odds of
causing damage with 2 4+ attacks than 1 3+ one. Besides, Scorpions
have better armour.

The Exarchs, yes, they were
> lacking definitely...

Two words where Exarchs are concerned: Warp Spiders. Whatever else you
use for your main Aspects, always make your Exarchs Spiders. Spiders
are the only Aspect that confers a combat special ability (first
strike) on the Exarch (not a bad option with a macro-weapon), they're
as tough as any so make him survivable, and their ability to
infiltrate allows him to reach choice targets.

> > The idea was to be a compromise between 2nd and 3rd Ed... Also, try
> > making use of flyers in future games - the Eldar have some very good
> > ones (think of a Phoenix squadron as a Night Spinner battery that's
> > hard to kill and has decent anti-tank power to boot).
>
> Sounds useful....we had agreed not to complicate things for our first game
> with using flyer.

The rules are actually pretty simple - they've been standardised to
follow most of the same rules as other units, they just have their own
set of orders.

Philip Bowles
 
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OK Redrew the list

Guardian Host
1 Farseer, 6 Guardians, 1 Hvy Weap Platform
3 Wraithlords

Guardian Host 2
1 Farseer, 7 Guardians
4 Wave Serpents

Night Spinner Troupe - 3 Spinners

WindRider Troupe
6 JetBikes

Windrider Troupe
6 Vypers

Engine of Vaul - Cobra (the one with the Pulsar if I got the name wrong)


Now this worked better against the same Space Marine Army. I wasnt playing
it though I had drawn it up. The Sm player committed his Land Raiders to
close support and sustained fire in succession from the Cobra, the
Wraithlords and the Spinners broke the Raiders, then trashed them.

We did worry whether we had the assault rules right, or if there was a
hint of cheese in one fight, or if in fact we had used tactics as they
were supposed to be used.

One fight consisted of 4 assault marines hitting the Guardian host with
Serpents while they were broken....they had just lost an assault on them
and lost 2 guardian units in the process and withdrawn. The Assault
marines then hit them. So far as we could see the fight was conducted
normally but when blastmarkers were applied the broken unit simply lost
extra units (first round was a tie) then the second round was a win for
the SMs, trahsing the remaining 3 Serpents and leaving the Space Marines
with one unit with 2 blast markers. We think we did that right. Though we
werent sure when the blastmarkers killing started - if it was the next set
of markers after the event that broke a unit or if indeed at the point it
was broken by receiving 4 markers when it only needed 2 the unit had to
take the 2 extra or if the 4 were considered to simply break it.

The was it cheese or intention was a bitlater - Devastator unit holed up
in buidlings. A Guardian warhost doubled into about 15cm range, then a
jetbike unit engaged - but only had 3 of the bikes in range. So far as we
saw, there was massive firesupport from the guardian host which gave
enough kills to send the devs Sir-Robinning, however the devs put 5-6hits
on the bikes but from the rules it appeared ALL those hits were spread
solely on the bikes in range and nothingto the supporting unit....so did
this get done correctly, aoes this mean that if you line 2 units up for
fire support that pair of jetbikes carefully placed will do horrible
horrible things...

Tim
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Tim Fitzmaurice <tjf11@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<Pine.SOC.4.61.0504261515090.29324@virgo.cus.cam.ac.uk>...
> OK Redrew the list

You really need to get hold of an Avatar. Sadly, GW's site seems to
have screwed up the Eldar releases - some things that were briefly
available (including the Avatar, Shining Spears, Fire Prisms and
Phoenix Bombers) no longer show up on their site for some reason.

> Guardian Host
> 1 Farseer, 6 Guardians, 1 Hvy Weap Platform
> 3 Wraithlords
>
Haven't tried them yet, but I'm a little wary of Wraithlords for the
same reason I'm wary of Vyper/bike combinations - tough they may be,
but they make you vulnerable to blast markers from anti-vehicle fire
(and unlike a transported Host they'll be exposed for much of the
game). I'll be interested in seeing how they hold up, though.

> Guardian Host 2
> 1 Farseer, 7 Guardians
> 4 Wave Serpents

Perfect. Though no Aspects at all is unusual and sounds warning bells
- though I suppose you didn't have much success with them last time.

> Night Spinner Troupe - 3 Spinners
>
> WindRider Troupe
> 6 JetBikes
>
> Windrider Troupe
> 6 Vypers

One suggestion I'd make is that, since your Farseer can command up to
two units in an assault, you take two all-Jetbike Troupes and ditch
the Vypers - that gives you a more assault-orientated army and the
numbers to overwhelm most enemies in a firefight.

> Engine of Vaul - Cobra (the one with the Pulsar if I got the name wrong)

Scorpion. :)

>
> Now this worked better against the same Space Marine Army. I wasnt playing
> it though I had drawn it up. The Sm player committed his Land Raiders to
> close support and sustained fire in succession from the Cobra, the
> Wraithlords and the Spinners broke the Raiders, then trashed them.

The Wraithlords on their own? What were the weapon platforms doing?

> We did worry whether we had the assault rules right, or if there was a
> hint of cheese in one fight, or if in fact we had used tactics as they
> were supposed to be used.
>
> One fight consisted of 4 assault marines hitting the Guardian host with
> Serpents while they were broken....

While the Guardians were broken, I take it you mean?

they had just lost an assault on them
> and lost 2 guardian units in the process and withdrawn. The Assault
> marines then hit them. So far as we could see the fight was conducted
> normally but when blastmarkers were applied the broken unit simply lost
> extra units (first round was a tie) then the second round was a win for
> the SMs, trahsing the remaining 3 Serpents and leaving the Space Marines
> with one unit with 2 blast markers. We think we did that right. Though we
> werent sure when the blastmarkers killing started - if it was the next set
> of markers after the event that broke a unit or if indeed at the point it
> was broken by receiving 4 markers when it only needed 2 the unit had to
> take the 2 extra or if the 4 were considered to simply break it.

I don't have the rulebook with me here, and I don't remember offhand.

Philip Bowles
 
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On Wed, 26 Apr 2005, Philip Bowles wrote:

> Tim Fitzmaurice <tjf11@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<Pine.SOC.4.61.0504261515090.29324@virgo.cus.cam.ac.uk>...
>> OK Redrew the list
>
> You really need to get hold of an Avatar. Sadly, GW's site seems to
> have screwed up the Eldar releases - some things that were briefly
> available (including the Avatar, Shining Spears, Fire Prisms and
> Phoenix Bombers) no longer show up on their site for some reason.

We deliberately didnt introduce any of the free for special use figures. I
do have the figure, but something thats combat related but free was a bit
much for what was the second learning game and an army that was to be used
by a novice.
Actually I got it as part of the GW dirt cheap clearnace stuff a couple of
years ago from mail order....I have a spare too I think.
I would in the normal course of events go Avatar and Court.....for nothing
and a decent strike its useful

> >> Guardian Host
>> 1 Farseer, 6 Guardians, 1 Hvy Weap Platform
>> 3 Wraithlords
>>
> Haven't tried them yet, but I'm a little wary of Wraithlords for the
> same reason I'm wary of Vyper/bike combinations - tough they may be,
> but they make you vulnerable to blast markers from anti-vehicle fire
> (and unlike a transported Host they'll be exposed for much of the
> game). I'll be interested in seeing how they hold up, though.

Well anything is vulnerable for at least one blast marker, the Epic faq
makes it explicit that AT fire can be directed at an infantry formation to
give it blast markers.
These were used as a second wave strike unit. THey moved into postion and
then hit. The close combat ability of them is moderately frightening, and
the unit rather neatly took its position. It did need careful management
not to fall to the weakness you note though. The 30cm lance weapons were
handy too.

>> Guardian Host 2
>> 1 Farseer, 7 Guardians
>> 4 Wave Serpents
>
> Perfect. Though no Aspects at all is unusual and sounds warning bells
> - though I suppose you didn't have much success with them last time.

Well a) they failed last time and so I didnt really see a good plan for
them, b) I had an idea what to do and c) I was using my own figures this
time and I have none painted yet :)

>> WindRider Troupe
>> 6 JetBikes
>>
>> Windrider Troupe
>> 6 Vypers
>
> One suggestion I'd make is that, since your Farseer can command up to
> two units in an assault, you take two all-Jetbike Troupes and ditch
> the Vypers - that gives you a more assault-orientated army and the
> numbers to overwhelm most enemies in a firefight.

The guy who played these used the jetbikes in combo with the
Guardian/Wraithlord host.
This was after the VYpers had doubled in and used the scatter lasers to
put a blast marker or two onto the unit to be assaulted.

>> Engine of Vaul - Cobra (the one with the Pulsar if I got the name wrong)
>
> Scorpion. :)

:)

>> Now this worked better against the same Space Marine Army. I wasnt playing
>> it though I had drawn it up. The Sm player committed his Land Raiders to
>> close support and sustained fire in succession from the Cobra, the
>> Wraithlords and the Spinners broke the Raiders, then trashed them.
>
> The Wraithlords on their own? What were the weapon platforms doing?

Missing :)

>> We did worry whether we had the assault rules right, or if there was a
>> hint of cheese in one fight, or if in fact we had used tactics as they
>> were supposed to be used.
>>
>> One fight consisted of 4 assault marines hitting the Guardian host with
>> Serpents while they were broken....
>
> While the Guardians were broken, I take it you mean?

Guardians and Serpents were one unit as far as we could see from the
rules - it was broken - It had tried to secure an area, a devastator and a
tactical squad had hit it. It was a bit of a feint apparantly and worked
well as its retreat pulled an assault unit out of position to chase, meant
a tactical unit was left with no opposition to take on and the 2 units who
had attacked were then hit by spinners, bikes etc...and the SM centre thus
failed...

Tim
--
When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
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