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Why do New Zealanders find Americans so fascinating?

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Anonymous
June 15, 2005 11:43:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Since I've seen Rob post this heading a few times, thought we could
find out why?
Kevin
Anonymous
June 16, 2005 3:06:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Lep said

> Since I've seen Rob post this heading a few times, thought we could
> find out why?

I take it that what you're trying to ask is why I've started threads
with apparent derogatory comments about Americans?

Well Lep, me lad, look at the people who react negatively to them, and look
at the people - Americans included - who just get into the swing of things.
I've been posting here since about '97 IIRC and that whole time people have
made jokes about my nationality. Just recently Myr made jokes about NZ
being full of Hobbits when he knows damn well we ate them all. I don't
take it personally. I can laugh about my nation as much as the next man -
unless they're Aussies because those sheep shagging bastards can just piss
off.

Anyway back to the respondees. Kenneth gets really shitty, but Kenneth has
also displayed an appalling knowledge of geography and countries, including
his own. How does he know that what I'm saying isn't true? Why is he
being so defensive? Why can't he have a laugh about being American? I'd
understand it if he were Canadian - pretending to be a real country and
all.

Perhaps he just needs some good lovin' from the rest of us to help cheer
him up? Or maybe he just needs a good sausage roll with a bit of black
sauce and some chips.

--
Rob Singers RGMW FAQ Maintainer. See it @ http://www.rgmw.org
Send submissions to submissions at rgmw dot org changing the obvious.
"I present to RGMW....the real life model for StrongBad." (c) Inc 2003
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
Anonymous
June 16, 2005 4:07:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Kenneth Coble said

> Seriously, I'm all about having a laugh at being an American - you
> pretty much have to be if you don't want to go crazy in our current
> political climate. I'm really hoping we can chalk all this up to some
> weird misunderstanding on both our parts, then you can get back to
> your sheepshagging and I can get back to my unbridled imperialist
> aggression (NB: this is a joke).

Really now Kenneth. It doesn't work as a joke if you tell everyone it's a
joke.

As for the knowledge of geography, my apologies, it appears it was Brion K.
Lienhart. I'm not 100% certain also you haven't because google groups is
now so fubared it's hard to search the archieves, but you get an apology
anyway :-)

--
Rob Singers RGMW FAQ Maintainer. See it @ http://www.rgmw.org
Send submissions to submissions at rgmw dot org changing the obvious.
"I present to RGMW....the real life model for StrongBad." (c) Inc 2003
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
Related resources
Anonymous
June 16, 2005 4:23:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Robert Singers wrote:
> Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Kenneth Coble said
>
>> Seriously, I'm all about having a laugh at being an American - you
>> pretty much have to be if you don't want to go crazy in our current
>> political climate. I'm really hoping we can chalk all this up to
>> some weird misunderstanding on both our parts, then you can get back
>> to your sheepshagging and I can get back to my unbridled imperialist
>> aggression (NB: this is a joke).
>
> Really now Kenneth. It doesn't work as a joke if you tell everyone
> it's a joke.
>
> As for the knowledge of geography, my apologies, it appears it was
> Brion K. Lienhart. I'm not 100% certain also you haven't because
> google groups is now so fubared it's hard to search the archieves,
> but you get an apology anyway :-)

Heh... no worries. And again, I wasn't trying to start a fight on the
thread above this one, I was (perhaps unsuccessfully) trying to fish for
your reasons. Looking back on it now it looks less like the clever send-up
I thought I was writing, and more like whiny bitching, for which I
apologize.

The main thing is that I hope we've established that I'm not ignorant on
geography. While I do tend to laugh off most digs at Americans, the one
that I tend to get irked about is the notion that we don't care about the
rest of the world. Of course, this one bothers me the most because with a
lot of Americans, it's usually all too true. Nothing makes me cringe more
than seeing a news story about our educational system where they ask high
school grads to find places on a map of the world. They cant even find
_America_ sometimes. God, I get a little queasy just thinking about it.
And since I've made some effort specifically to not be like that, I really
hope I haven't come across that way here.

Anyway, no blood, no foul, as my high school PhysEd teachers used to say.
No hard feelings on this end, and I hope it's the same on your end.

--
Ken Coble

One of our guards went berserk, burned fifteen prisoners to death, and
fought the other guards all night with swords of white and blue fire.
He was not replaced.
-Gene Wolfe, _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_
Anonymous
June 16, 2005 5:47:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

In article <Xns967770F91AD85rsingers@IP-Hidden>, Robert Singers,
rsingers@finger.hotmail.com Varfed out the following in Timo speak...
> Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Lep said
>
> > Since I've seen Rob post this heading a few times, thought we could
> > find out why?
>
> I take it that what you're trying to ask is why I've started threads
> with apparent derogatory comments about Americans?
>
> Well Lep, me lad, look at the people who react negatively to them, and look
> at the people - Americans included - who just get into the swing of things.

Yeah Baby! Yeah! - oh wait, he was supposed to be English...
(Damn culture blindness.)

> I've been posting here since about '97 IIRC and that whole time people have
> made jokes about my nationality. Just recently Myr made jokes about NZ
> being full of Hobbits when he knows damn well we ate them all. I don't
> take it personally.

I'm seriously pissed. Singers didn't even so much as email me a
single Hobbity Bacon-Buttie. Nor has he offered up even a single decent
marinade for Hobbit steak. I'm thinking that's just selfish right
there, but I'm a bigger man than that (particularly the hair).

> I can laugh about my nation as much as the next man -

Ha! You're not fooling us. You live in the boonies anyway and
don't have next-door neighbors. We've all seen the shots of Rohan!
Though I suppose it could be worse and you'd have a whole forest full of
those fruity elves for neighbors.

> unless they're Aussies because those sheep shagging bastards can just piss
> off.

See, there we go with the whole 'fruity elves' thing again...
Besides, how can you *NOT* laugh at the aussies? They've got plastic
money for crying out loud! How does the rest of the world even know
that they didn't just buy up a lot of Monopoly sets on the cheap and
start using the stuff for currency?

>
> Anyway back to the respondees. Kenneth gets really shitty, but Kenneth has
> also displayed an appalling knowledge of geography and countries, including
> his own. How does he know that what I'm saying isn't true? Why is he
> being so defensive? Why can't he have a laugh about being American?

Let me be the first Merkin to say it: "WE DIDN'T LOOSE NAM!" Ok,
get over it everyone. If it weren't for us, the only people in the
world with decent footwear would be the Italians.

> I'd
> understand it if he were Canadian - pretending to be a real country and
> all.

Ooooh! Now you're just trying to goad Blank_Dave into building a
bigger form flame. Shame on you! :) 
>
> Perhaps he just needs some good lovin' from the rest of us to help cheer
> him up? Or maybe he just needs a good sausage roll with a bit of black
> sauce and some chips.

You see! You see! There goes Singers - taunting me with that
damn Hobbit food again! Curse you Singers! You'll rue the day!


Myrmidon :) 

Now I've got to go grill a steak...


--
"I'm already impoverished from buying wargames minis,
and I'm too knackered for riotous living..."

-- Moramarth

RGMW FAQ: http://www.rgmw.org

Or...

http://www.sheppard.demon.co.uk/rgmw_faq/rgmw_faq.htm
Anonymous
June 16, 2005 12:11:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:47:59 GMT, Myrmidon <ImNot@home.com> wrote:

> Let me be the first Merkin to say it: "WE DIDN'T LOOSE NAM!" Ok,
>get over it everyone.

Let me be the first to qualify that: The American soldiers didn't
lose Nam. Heck, they were winning handily in most cases.
Unfortunately, the politicians wanted the votes of the protesters, so
they backed them and told the NV leaders they didn't have to win, just
keep on throwing bodies into the war until the American people finally
demanded that our troops be brought home. It's the same tactic they
admitted they used on the French, and one that the terrorists in Iraq
are trying to use today. If the same people had been around at the
time of WWII, we would have "lost" that war too.

Sorry, I just had to make sure no one got the impression that our
soldiers failed their job. It's bad enough they got pissed on when
they got home (sometimes literally), it's even worse that they too
often get blamed by uninformed people of losing the war.
-Erik
Anonymous
June 16, 2005 7:33:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

> I can laugh about my nation as much as the next man -
> unless they're Aussies because those sheep shagging bastards can just piss
> off.

*snicker* Rob has nation envy.

Carn the crows!!!
Anonymous
June 16, 2005 7:39:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Erik Setzer wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:47:59 GMT, Myrmidon <ImNot@home.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Let me be the first Merkin to say it: "WE DIDN'T LOOSE NAM!" Ok,
>>get over it everyone.
>
>
> Let me be the first to qualify that: The American soldiers didn't
> lose Nam. Heck, they were winning handily in most cases.
> Unfortunately, the politicians wanted the votes of the protesters, so
> they backed them and told the NV leaders they didn't have to win, just
> keep on throwing bodies into the war until the American people finally
> demanded that our troops be brought home. It's the same tactic they
> admitted they used on the French, and one that the terrorists in Iraq
> are trying to use today. If the same people had been around at the
> time of WWII, we would have "lost" that war too.

Putting it slightly differently, military victory was not consiered to
be worth the cost in US lives (lives of people in Vietnam on any side
not really being a significant factor in the equation). It should
surprise no-one that the US had a lower tollerance for casualties than
their enemy, after all, they weren't fighting for the very existance of
their ideology on their home soil. I doubt the level of casualties
suffered by the S in WWII would have been considered acceptable if the
threat to the US was considerably less great.

> Sorry, I just had to make sure no one got the impression that our
> soldiers failed their job. It's bad enough they got pissed on when
> they got home (sometimes literally), it's even worse that they too
> often get blamed by uninformed people of losing the war.
> -Erik


--
=/\= Lt. Cmdr. Jim =/\=
By our chocolate, shall they know us.
Not on behalf of any committee, real or imaginary, in this or any other
universe.
Anonymous
June 17, 2005 12:04:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Myrmidon said

> In article <Xns967770F91AD85rsingers@IP-Hidden>, Robert Singers,
> rsingers@finger.hotmail.com Varfed out the following in Timo speak...
>> Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Lep said
>>
>> > Since I've seen Rob post this heading a few times, thought we could
>> > find out why?
>>
>> I take it that what you're trying to ask is why I've started threads
>> with apparent derogatory comments about Americans?
>>
>> Well Lep, me lad, look at the people who react negatively to them,
>> and look at the people - Americans included - who just get into the
>> swing of things.
>
> Yeah Baby! Yeah! - oh wait, he was supposed to be English...
> (Damn culture blindness.)

Well in that the American writers had given him bad teeth yes. But do
Englishmen really shag all your women?

>> I've been posting here since about '97 IIRC and that whole time
>> people have made jokes about my nationality. Just recently Myr made
>> jokes about NZ being full of Hobbits when he knows damn well we ate
>> them all. I don't take it personally.
>
> I'm seriously pissed. Singers didn't even so much as email me a
> single Hobbity Bacon-Buttie. Nor has he offered up even a single
> decent marinade for Hobbit steak. I'm thinking that's just selfish
> right there, but I'm a bigger man than that (particularly the hair).

Blame your US protectionist agricultural laws. We'd have loved to export
Hobbits to the US.

>> I can laugh about my nation as much as the next man -
>
> Ha! You're not fooling us. You live in the boonies anyway and
> don't have next-door neighbors. We've all seen the shots of Rohan!
> Though I suppose it could be worse and you'd have a whole forest full
> of those fruity elves for neighbors.

Who all moonlight as soup actors.

>> unless they're Aussies because those sheep shagging bastards can just
>> piss off.
>
> See, there we go with the whole 'fruity elves' thing again...
> Besides, how can you *NOT* laugh at the aussies? They've got plastic
> money for crying out loud! How does the rest of the world even know
> that they didn't just buy up a lot of Monopoly sets on the cheap and
> start using the stuff for currency?

Actually what's really stoooopid about their money is that the $2 coin is
smaller than the $1 coin, and their notes are funny colours. And the $5
doesn't have Sir Ed on it, and everyone knows that Sir Ed is the greatest
Bloke of the 20th century. Any US money is dumb because it's all the
same colour and you don't have $1 coins for sticking in coke machines.

>> Anyway back to the respondees. Kenneth gets really shitty, but
>> Kenneth has also displayed an appalling knowledge of geography and
>> countries, including his own. How does he know that what I'm saying
>> isn't true? Why is he being so defensive? Why can't he have a laugh
>> about being American?
>
> Let me be the first Merkin to say it: "WE DIDN'T LOOSE NAM!" Ok,
> get over it everyone. If it weren't for us, the only people in the
> world with decent footwear would be the Italians.

I'm not entirely sure what that means, but I might post a pic of me in my
OCC t-shirt when it arrives.

>> I'd
>> understand it if he were Canadian - pretending to be a real country
>> and all.
>
> Ooooh! Now you're just trying to goad Blank_Dave into building a
> bigger form flame. Shame on you! :) 

Bah Blank Dave can't build a bigger form flame.

>> Perhaps he just needs some good lovin' from the rest of us to help
>> cheer him up? Or maybe he just needs a good sausage roll with a bit
>> of black sauce and some chips.
>
> You see! You see! There goes Singers - taunting me with that
> damn Hobbit food again! Curse you Singers! You'll rue the day!

Hobbit you can't handle hobbit.

> Now I've got to go grill a steak...

Grass fed or tasteless corn fed?

--
Rob Singers RGMW FAQ Maintainer. See it @ http://www.rgmw.org
Send submissions to submissions at rgmw dot org changing the obvious.
"I present to RGMW....the real life model for StrongBad." (c) Inc 2003
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
Anonymous
June 17, 2005 12:04:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

It was a cold day in September when Robert Singers entered the world pub
known as rec.games.miniatures.warhammer and said...

> Any US money is dumb because it's all the
> same colour and you don't have $1 coins for sticking in coke machines.
>

The newer bills are multicolored, and we do have one dollar coins, but our
soda machines take bills so we don't need to use dollar coins for them. on
the other hand our money has absolutely no inherent value today, unlike the
pre 1964 U.S. currency which could be traded in for a set amount of
Silver...

--
Jim M

"Look alive. Here comes a buzzard." -- Walt Kelly (Pogo)
"The only game I like to play is Old Maid - provided she's not too old." --
Groucho Marx

http://jimac.tripod.com
Anonymous
June 17, 2005 12:04:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

"Robert Singers" <rsingers@finger.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9677CC1D36EB4rsingers@IP-Hidden...
> Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Myrmidon said

>> Now I've got to go grill a steak...
>
> Grass fed or tasteless corn fed?

If it's your typical US livestock, grain fed, among other things.
You don't really want to know what the "other things" are...

hackCOUGHmeatbyproductsCOUGHsteroidsCOUGHcough!


--

-smithdoerr
Anonymous
June 17, 2005 12:04:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

On 6/16/05 4:04 AM, in article Xns9677CC1D36EB4rsingers@IP-Hidden, "Robert
Singers" <rsingers@finger.hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>> Now I've got to go grill a steak...
>
> Grass fed or tasteless corn fed?

That grass better be for medicinal purposes only.

janet
--
Crimes, like virtues, are their own reward.
George Farquhar
Anonymous
June 17, 2005 12:04:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Between saving the world and having a spot of tea elfbard said

>> I can laugh about my nation as much as the next man -
>> unless they're Aussies because those sheep shagging bastards can just
>> piss off.
>
> *snicker* Rob has nation envy.
>
> Carn the crows!!!

At least NZ actors don't assualt people with phones.

--
Rob Singers RGMW FAQ Maintainer. See it @ http://www.rgmw.org
Send submissions to submissions at rgmw dot org changing the obvious.
"I present to RGMW....the real life model for StrongBad." (c) Inc 2003
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
Anonymous
June 17, 2005 12:04:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

In article <Xns9677CC306C119rsingers@IP-Hidden>,
rsingers@finger.hotmail.com says...
> Between saving the world and having a spot of tea elfbard said
>
> >> I can laugh about my nation as much as the next man -
> >> unless they're Aussies because those sheep shagging bastards can just
> >> piss off.
> >
> > *snicker* Rob has nation envy.
> >
> > Carn the crows!!!
>
> At least NZ actors don't assualt people with phones.

Where was Rusty born again?

Brad

--

Don't bother with the yahoo address - I never read it.
bjhann at hotkey dot net dot au
Anonymous
June 17, 2005 12:05:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Kenneth Coble said
[snip]
>> As for the knowledge of geography, my apologies, it appears it was
>> Brion K. Lienhart. I'm not 100% certain also you haven't because
>> google groups is now so fubared it's hard to search the archieves,
>> but you get an apology anyway :-)
>
> Heh... no worries. And again, I wasn't trying to start a fight on the
> thread above this one, I was (perhaps unsuccessfully) trying to fish
> for your reasons. Looking back on it now it looks less like the
> clever send-up I thought I was writing, and more like whiny bitching,
> for which I apologize.

One would almost wonder if you're asking to be spanked.

--
Rob Singers RGMW FAQ Maintainer. See it @ http://www.rgmw.org
Send submissions to submissions at rgmw dot org changing the obvious.
"I present to RGMW....the real life model for StrongBad." (c) Inc 2003
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
Anonymous
June 17, 2005 2:14:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Brad Hann said

> Where was Rusty born again?

Rusty the famous Australian country musician?

--
Rob Singers RGMW FAQ Maintainer. See it @ http://www.rgmw.org
Send submissions to submissions at rgmw dot org changing the obvious.
"I present to RGMW....the real life model for StrongBad." (c) Inc 2003
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
Anonymous
June 17, 2005 3:36:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

In article <1118929175.c29f90bd0e848c86b20f8996a80a7a5c@teranews>,
smithdoerr, askmeforname@vodafone.it Varfed out the following in Timo
speak...
>
> "Robert Singers" <rsingers@finger.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9677CC1D36EB4rsingers@IP-Hidden...
> > Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Myrmidon said
>
> >> Now I've got to go grill a steak...
> >
> > Grass fed or tasteless corn fed?
>
> If it's your typical US livestock, grain fed, among other things.
> You don't really want to know what the "other things" are...
>
> hackCOUGHmeatbyproductsCOUGHsteroidsCOUGHcough!

Oh pish-posh! That's just the 'Mad Cow' flavored meat.

Myr :) 

--
"I'm already impoverished from buying wargames minis,
and I'm too knackered for riotous living..."

-- Moramarth

RGMW FAQ: http://www.rgmw.org

Or...

http://www.sheppard.demon.co.uk/rgmw_faq/rgmw_faq.htm
Anonymous
June 17, 2005 5:58:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

"Myrmidon" <ImNot@home.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d1bd84bdf28a5df98a597@news-server.woh.rr.com...
> In article
> <1118929175.c29f90bd0e848c86b20f8996a80a7a5c@teranews>,
> smithdoerr, askmeforname@vodafone.it Varfed out the following
> in Timo
> speak...
>>
>> "Robert Singers" <rsingers@finger.hotmail.com> wrote in
>> message
>> news:Xns9677CC1D36EB4rsingers@IP-Hidden...
>> > Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Myrmidon
>> > said
>>
>> >> Now I've got to go grill a steak...
>> >
>> > Grass fed or tasteless corn fed?
>>
>> If it's your typical US livestock, grain fed, among other
>> things.
>> You don't really want to know what the "other things" are...
>>
>> hackCOUGHmeatbyproductsCOUGHsteroidsCOUGHcough!
>
> Oh pish-posh! That's just the 'Mad Cow' flavored meat.

Cows fattened up with the meat byproducts of other slaughtered
cows. MMMmmmmm, it's cannibalicious!

That reminds me, I need to eat more chianina beef while I still
can before returning to the states in a few weeks.


--

-smithdoerr
Anonymous
June 17, 2005 6:55:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

It was a cold day in September when Janet Quick entered the world pub known
as rec.games.miniatures.warhammer and said...

> On 6/16/05 4:04 AM, in article Xns9677CC1D36EB4rsingers@IP-Hidden, "Robert
> Singers" <rsingers@finger.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >> Now I've got to go grill a steak...
> >
> > Grass fed or tasteless corn fed?
>
> That grass better be for medicinal purposes only.
>
Hey you have to keep the cows happy somehow...


--
Jim M

"Look alive. Here comes a buzzard." -- Walt Kelly (Pogo)
"The only game I like to play is Old Maid - provided she's not too old." --
Groucho Marx

http://jimac.tripod.com
Anonymous
June 17, 2005 11:39:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

On 6/17/05 7:05 PM, in article 3hh38vFgua6tU1@individual.net, "Lt. Cmdr.
Jim" <ltcmdrjim@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Erik Setzer wrote:

>
>> The reaction the
>> soldiers got from those people when they returned home proved that the
>> stance against Vietnam had nothing to do with worrying about the
>> soldiers in Vietnam.
>
> Again, you are, I think, putting too much faih in the idea that this was
> a cohesive group.

The reaction the soldiers received from SOME people when they returned is an
example of the same blind blaming of a whole (vast and varied) group for the
acts of some of it's members. Those folks thought they were being all noble
and life-loving and against war. Just as you think you are being all
patriotic and supportive of the soldiers.

Let me practice a little bit of your rhetoric: if you love the soldiers so
much then why do you want to keep them in Iraq where 2-5 are killed every
day?

Unfair question? Yes, it absolutely is.

janet
--
Women and cats will do as they please. Men and dogs should relax and get
used to the idea.
Robert A. Heinlein
Anonymous
June 18, 2005 6:20:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Between saving the world and having a spot of tea smithdoerr said
[snip]
> Was that in _Fast Food Nation_? I must have mentally blocked
> that part out.

No I remember listening to a radio documentary about US agriculture. I'm
supprised you're not actually called the Socialist Republics of America.

--
Rob Singers RGMW FAQ Maintainer. See it @ http://www.rgmw.org
Send submissions to submissions at rgmw dot org changing the obvious.
"I present to RGMW....the real life model for StrongBad." (c) Inc 2003
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
Anonymous
June 18, 2005 8:50:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:05:03 +0100, "Lt. Cmdr. Jim"
<ltcmdrjim@hotmail.com> wrote:

>To kill and die to protect your
>country from an immediate agressor is one thing, to do the same to
>further some political end you don't support is quite annother.

And on that note, I give up. If people are too stupid to understand
that protecting people from an invading force that they don't want is
not "furthering some political end", it's not worth worrying about
them. If Vietnam was to further some political end, then so was
Korea, WWI, WWII, Desert Storm, Bosnia, Kosovo, Somolia, and every war
in between. WWI was no threat to the US. WWII, only Japan was much
of a threat - the real threat in Europe was from our "allies", the
Soviets. So I guess then that people should have been just as eager
to run from those wars?

I stand by my view. The generation of the 60s had too many cowards.
They wouldn't have joined the army even to protect America.
-Erik
Anonymous
June 18, 2005 8:59:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:39:52 -0400, Janet Quick <janetq@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On 6/17/05 7:05 PM, in article 3hh38vFgua6tU1@individual.net, "Lt. Cmdr.
>Jim" <ltcmdrjim@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Erik Setzer wrote:
>
>>
>>> The reaction the
>>> soldiers got from those people when they returned home proved that the
>>> stance against Vietnam had nothing to do with worrying about the
>>> soldiers in Vietnam.
>>
>> Again, you are, I think, putting too much faih in the idea that this was
>> a cohesive group.
>
>The reaction the soldiers received from SOME people when they returned is an
>example of the same blind blaming of a whole (vast and varied) group for the
>acts of some of it's members. Those folks thought they were being all noble
>and life-loving and against war. Just as you think you are being all
>patriotic and supportive of the soldiers.
>
>Let me practice a little bit of your rhetoric: if you love the soldiers so
>much then why do you want to keep them in Iraq where 2-5 are killed every
>day?


Simple. Because I don't value American lives tenfold over Iraqi
lives. Sure, it's easy to turn a blind eye and let mass graves
continue to be filled up, or let madmen turn to their nuclear weapons
and leave them be in the fear that Americans will die. But if the
noble sacrifice of two thousand men will prevent the horrors that
Saddam perpetuated against his own people, and crush the terrorists in
Iraq, then that is what must happen. Ask the men serving over there.
They know their duty is to fight for the people who cannot fight for
themselves. They know it's dangerous work. I wish that no more men
would die. But if we pulled them all out, what then would happen?
Thousands more Iraqis would die, and the nation would fall back into
the hands of a dictatorship. The shining beacon of hope for the
Middle East would fall apart, and our best chance to help that region
would be gone with it.

In WWII 10,000 men died in just over a month taking some worthless
island that was better off bombed and passed over. In over two years
in Iraq we haven't lost two thousand men, and we've handed out a much
higher body count to the terrorists. Was it worth it when we were
pressing on against Japan, even after it had ceased to be a threat to
our soil?

It's a shame that good men must die this way. But without that
sacrifice, the world would be a much worse place. So yes, while I
love the soldiers of the American military, I also value freedom and
democracy, and the lives of countless people around the world who
cannot stand up for themselves. And for that reason I support staying
in Iraq until the job is done.
-Erik
Anonymous
June 18, 2005 3:41:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Lep wrote:
> Since I've seen Rob post this heading a few times, thought we could
> find out why?
> Kevin
>

Because we have actual women, and they have to setttle for sheep.
Anonymous
June 18, 2005 3:51:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

It was a cold day in September when Erik Setzer entered the world pub known
as rec.games.miniatures.warhammer and said...

> On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:05:03 +0100, "Lt. Cmdr. Jim"
> <ltcmdrjim@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >To kill and die to protect your
> >country from an immediate agressor is one thing, to do the same to
> >further some political end you don't support is quite annother.
>
> And on that note, I give up. If people are too stupid to understand
> that protecting people from an invading force that they don't want is
> not "furthering some political end", it's not worth worrying about
> them. If Vietnam was to further some political end, then so was
> Korea, WWI, WWII, Desert Storm, Bosnia, Kosovo, Somolia, and every war
> in between. WWI was no threat to the US. WWII, only Japan was much
> of a threat - the real threat in Europe was from our "allies", the
> Soviets. So I guess then that people should have been just as eager
> to run from those wars?
>

That's right the U.S. was "protecting" the Vietnamese minority from an
invading force of Vietnamese that the U.S. did not want in control of that
country. When the U.S. intervened (taking over from the French btw) it was
to stop the spread of communism, which already had most of Vietnam in their
grip, we were helping the MINORITY POLITICAL party in a third world country.
That MINORITY party wanted us there in order that they could rule rather
then the Majority party. The war was lost before Kennedy ever committed the
first advisors to train the Vietnamese. He was also adamant about not
escalating the war, in direct opposition to the wishes of his vice
president. When Johnson took over after the assassination of Kennedy his
first act was to start sending troops to Vietnam. Within two years the
Citizens of the U.S. realized that we were in an unwinnable war and started
demanding that the U.S. pull out, Johnson refused and instead committed more
and more troops and equipment. Now comes the amazing part the company that
owned the transport panes going into Vietnam was owned by Lady Bird Johnson,
and they made Millions of Dollars from the War. All under the protestation
of the majority of the U.S. citizens. Vietnam was never a threat to the U.S.
in any form, unlike Sadam Hussein who actually was a viable threat. You can
not compare the two reasons of the conflicts any more then you can compare
the shape of an apple and a bannana and say they are both round.

> I stand by my view. The generation of the 60s had too many cowards.
> They wouldn't have joined the army even to protect America.

The '60s produced many fine soldiers and patriots, possibly more then any
other generation, but they didn't want to fight in an unwinnable war, that
did nothing but line the pockets of a few politicians. There is another key
difference between Vietnam and Iraq btw, the Soldiers in Vietnam had no
choice but to be there as they were conscripted into military service, the
Soldiers currently in Iraq are 100% volunteers, they are there because they
WANT to serve. My nephew (A sergeant in the 101st airborne btw) is going
back to Iraq in December. He has told me that we NEED to be there. I never
heard one soldier that came back from Vietnam say that, most said the exact
opposite that we had no BUSINESS being there.

Why do I support the War in Iraq, not because the President said we need to
follow through but because of what my nephew has told me. I trust him as a
soldier on the ground a whole hell of a lot more then I do the President...
--
Jim M

"Look alive. Here comes a buzzard." -- Walt Kelly (Pogo)
"The only game I like to play is Old Maid - provided she's not too old." --
Groucho Marx

http://jimac.tripod.com
Anonymous
June 18, 2005 3:51:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

<BIG SNIP>

To save any more time, let's review.

My opinions:

1) Vietnam was a just war.
2) Vietnam protestors were wrong.
3) American soldiers did not commit atrocities en masse.
4) John Kerry is a traitor.
5) Draft dodgers are cowards.

Your opinions (I could be mixing in someone else's, if so I
apologize):

1) Vietnam was a war for money.
2) Vietnam protestors were doing the right thing.
3) American soldiers commited a lot of atrocities.
4) John Kerry is a hero.
5) Draft dodgers are heros.

Yes, I am overly simplifying, but for time's sake.

On five points we're total opposites. At this point further
debate/discussion would be a moot point. I won't change your mind,
you won't change my mind. All we do is get more vitriolic toward each
other, and that's a useless thing to do.

I apologize for all comments you might have found offensive. I will
continue to hold my position, but it should be my right to have an
opinion that differs from yours, just as you have a right to differ
with my opinion. I cannot honestly say I respect your opinions, but I
respect that you have them and believe in them so firmly. Perhaps if
I wasn't so fervently against the people who spat on our soldiers when
they came home, an event that still pissed me off to this day, I could
see things in a more moderate light. However, my opinions are tainted
by who I know (and I am not refering to my father in any way) and my
own tendency to hold strong opinions.

There is a price rise going into effect by Games Workshop next month,
and instead of bitching about it, we're griping back and forth about
something totally off-topic - Vietnam, Michael Jackson, John Kerry,
etc. I know it's the RGMW way to have off-topic discussions, and at
times it's been the norm to carry on until one side finally exploded.
But as we all know, RGMW isn't what it once was, and I doubt these are
the kind of off-topic discussions anyone wants to see. No, I'm
reasonably certain that discussions of Dr. Who are a lot more
interesting, and less likely to offend someone (I hope).

So let's just agree to disagree (I know, what a copout, huh?) and get
on to what we should be doing - tearing into Games Workshop for
raising the prices, vowing to boycott their products, and screaming
about the evil money grubbers as we pull out our wallets and fork over
$200 for the new Carnifex.

On a last note, I'm not going to KF this thread, but if you have
something you really want to say to me, send it via e-mail, and keep
in mind that I'm very unlikely to change my opinion. Doesn't mean you
can't try to "enlighten" me - if that's your cup of tea, then by all
means do so. But it's better to do so in private than on this
newsgroup.
-Erik
Anonymous
June 18, 2005 4:13:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Robert Singers wrote:

> Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Kenneth Coble said
>
>
>>Seriously, I'm all about having a laugh at being an American - you
>>pretty much have to be if you don't want to go crazy in our current
>>political climate. I'm really hoping we can chalk all this up to some
>>weird misunderstanding on both our parts, then you can get back to
>>your sheepshagging and I can get back to my unbridled imperialist
>>aggression (NB: this is a joke).
>
>
> Really now Kenneth. It doesn't work as a joke if you tell everyone it's a
> joke.
>
> As for the knowledge of geography, my apologies, it appears it was Brion K.
> Lienhart. I'm not 100% certain also you haven't because google groups is
> now so fubared it's hard to search the archieves, but you get an apology
> anyway :-)
>

Ignorance of geography? I know the difference between N Zed and Oz, I
just didn't remember where you lived. Do you know where I live? (besides
in the US?)

New Zealand, Official Motto "Thank god we're not Tasmanian."
Anonymous
June 18, 2005 5:17:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005, Jim M wrote:

> My nephew (A sergeant in the 101st airborne btw) is going
> back to Iraq in December. He has told me that we NEED to be there.

Best of luck to him. I've plenty mixed feelings about it all having
started in the first place, but I'm sure not going to argue with him at
this stage - here's hoping he achieves what he's set out to do and walks
away satisfied.

--
flippa@flippac.org

Ivanova is always right.
I will listen to Ivanova.
I will not ignore Ivanova's recomendations.
Ivanova is God.
And, if this ever happens again, Ivanova will personally rip your lungs out!
Anonymous
June 18, 2005 6:20:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Just a little quote for those who like to believe that war has changed over
time.


"[We] have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to
escape with dignity and honour. [We] have been tricked into it by a steady
withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqu├ęs are belated, insincere,
incomplete. Things have been far worse than we have been told, our
administration more bloody and inefficient than the public knows... Our
unfortunate troops,... under hard conditions of climate and supply, are
policing an immense area, paying dearly every day in lives for the willfully
wrong policy of the civil administration in Baghdad." - T.E. Lawrence,
Sunday Times of London, August 22, 1920
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 7:46:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

It was a cold day in September when Erik Setzer entered the world pub known
as rec.games.miniatures.warhammer and said...

<Snipped it all>
http://www.san.beck.org/GPJ26-VietnamWar.html
go to that web site and read it, I am not trying to change your mind, I just
want you to read it, though I would be interested in your thoughts on it
afterwards, you can e-mail them to me if you wish...

--
Jim M

"Look alive. Here comes a buzzard." -- Walt Kelly (Pogo)
"The only game I like to play is Old Maid - provided she's not too old." --
Groucho Marx

http://jimac.tripod.com
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 12:37:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Brion K. Lienhart said

> Ignorance of geography? I know the difference between N Zed and Oz, I
> just didn't remember where you lived. Do you know where I live?
> (besides in the US?)

When I googled back that wasn't was I was looking for, and I doubt you
know anything about either country. I'd forgotten about that bout of
stupidity on your part. Living in Australia wouldn't make me an
Australian moron.

As for where you live. That's a non sequitar but from your header info
it appears California. Now IIRC state flag has a Bear on it, president
is some Austrian Mr Universe doll, and everyone starts their sentences
with 'Like you know'.[1]

> New Zealand, Official Motto "Thank god we're not Tasmanian."

Way to go there, proving how ignorant you're not.

[1] Can't you just hear all the other Americans going "it's so true",
and John missing the point entirely"?

--
Rob Singers
RGMW FAQ Maintainer. See it @ http://www.rgmw.org
Send submissions to submissions at rgmw dot org changing the obvious.
"I present to RGMW....the real life model for StrongBad." (c) Inc 2003
Anonymous
June 19, 2005 12:55:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Brion K. Lienhart said

> Lep wrote:
>> Since I've seen Rob post this heading a few times, thought we could
>> find out why?
>
> Because we have actual women, and they have to setttle for sheep.

The more you post Brion the more your chances of convincing someone that
you've been with a woman approaches zero.

And for the record I do own a sheep. It's currently in paddock getting
fat. When I've finished eating the one in the freezer it'll get butchered
as well. My biggest problem is that I haven't quite managed to get enough
Rosemary growing for seasoning. Far to wet lately.

--
Rob Singers RGMW FAQ Maintainer. See it @ http://www.rgmw.org
Send submissions to submissions at rgmw dot org changing the obvious.
"I present to RGMW....the real life model for StrongBad." (c) Inc 2003
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 6:59:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

It was a cold day in September when Lt. Cmdr. Jim entered the world pub
known as rec.games.miniatures.warhammer and said...

> > In all cases, I'd like to see the US take the
> > Israel approach - strike fast, smash all air defenses, then use air
> > superiority and superior troops to quickly drive a wedge through a
> > nation all the way into its capital. Anything else will likely
> > prolong the war needlessly, and that will cost lives that shouldn't
> > have been lost - American and otherwise.
>
> So, the nation's infrastructure has been crippled, standing military
> units are scattered, destroyed or surrendered, and you hold the capital.
> What then?
>
>
Isn't that what we have done in Iraq?
--
Jim M

"Look alive. Here comes a buzzard." -- Walt Kelly (Pogo)
"The only game I like to play is Old Maid - provided she's not too old." --
Groucho Marx

http://jimac.tripod.com
Anonymous
June 22, 2005 2:23:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

In article <MPG.1d1e0e58d70b68ee98a59c@news-server.woh.rr.com>, Myrmidon wrote:

> Ha! I'm not worried about Mad Cow disease. I'm a helicopter.

LOL!

--
Joakim
Anonymous
June 22, 2005 11:12:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Robert Singers wrote:
> Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Brion K. Lienhart said
>
>
>>Lep wrote:
>>
>>>Since I've seen Rob post this heading a few times, thought we could
>>>find out why?
>>
>>Because we have actual women, and they have to setttle for sheep.
>
>
> The more you post Brion the more your chances of convincing someone that
> you've been with a woman approaches zero.
>
> And for the record I do own a sheep. It's currently in paddock getting
> fat. When I've finished eating the one in the freezer it'll get butchered
> as well. My biggest problem is that I haven't quite managed to get enough
> Rosemary growing for seasoning. Far to wet lately.
>
Ah, so you call her Rosemary, how quiant! :) 
June 23, 2005 9:24:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

"Erik Setzer" <erks@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:msa8b1dp3niq5ontsphagt7rfu1h48ad74@4ax.com...
> <BIG SNIP>
>
<REAL BIG SNIP>

Jane, you ignorant slut....(This was before your time, Erik).Erik, you do
polarize an NG. Never thought I would say this. A little maturity and
experience may soften your stance on things, otherwise, now I know why you
get shunned. Man...I am speechless..Say so much and know so little. Buy a
newspaper for god's sake. Some fellows have asked you to read a little
history here. Take their advice. They even placed links to get there
easier(it is those little blue letters...click on them). I am afraid I will
not try to enlighten you. Enlighting means you are welcome to be taught. I
do not think you want to be. I wish you well..

berto
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 11:08:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:24:32 -0500, "Berto" <Albertocarro@msn.com>
wrote:

>
>"Erik Setzer" <erks@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:msa8b1dp3niq5ontsphagt7rfu1h48ad74@4ax.com...
>> <BIG SNIP>
>>
><REAL BIG SNIP>
>
>Jane, you ignorant slut....(This was before your time, Erik).Erik, you do
>polarize an NG. Never thought I would say this. A little maturity and
>experience may soften your stance on things, otherwise, now I know why you
>get shunned. Man...I am speechless..Say so much and know so little. Buy a
>newspaper for god's sake.

I do so every day. And I read it, even the editorials written by
liberals (when I can stomach their immature insults slung at
conservatives or even moderates in their own party).

> Some fellows have asked you to read a little
>history here.

Have done so, a lot.

> Take their advice. They even placed links to get there
>easier(it is those little blue letters...click on them).

Being insulting doesn't help your argument.

> I am afraid I will
>not try to enlighten you. Enlighting means you are welcome to be taught. I
>do not think you want to be. I wish you well..

I'm willing to be enlightened. Just because someone doesn't agree
with you doesn't mean they're stupid and unenlightened. If you want
me to even consider a viewpoint, don't be insulting about it. I feel
very strongly on this subject. I cannot apologize for that, because I
don't feel it would be right for me to defend a position I hold
strongly - and continue to hold, even after checking out some of these
sources people pointed out to me. Even if a small number of soldiers
- and I stress the words "small number" - committed atrocities, it was
unfair for all soldiers to be painted with the same brush by such
people as John Kerry and the other anti-war protestors. We are a
better society than that.

Bad things happen in war, and I hate that. Men who commit rampant war
crimes should be convicted and sentenced appropriately. But we should
not condemn our soldiers, nor hold them back, because of the actions
of a very few. And that is what happened in Vietnam - so often
uninformed - and is now happening in Iraq. (Specifically, the
incident regarding footage of a soldier shooting a terrorist
pretending to be dead. The news anchors blithely ignored to point out
that many terrorists had been using that stunt to lure soldiers close,
then shoot the soldiers or blow themselves up, killing the soldiers.
The soldier who shot the terrorist had been involved in one such
incident just days before, and saw a friend fall victim to it.)
-Erik
Anonymous
June 23, 2005 11:50:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Desert Joe said

> Ah, so you call her Rosemary, how quiant! :) 

Piquant?

--
Rob Singers RGMW FAQ Maintainer. See it @ http://www.rgmw.org
Send submissions to submissions at rgmw dot org changing the obvious.
"I present to RGMW....the real life model for StrongBad." (c) Inc 2003
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
Anonymous
June 24, 2005 12:45:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

On 6/23/05 7:08 PM, in article apfmb11sghi2kdd67lrmhkvuo05oo4325c@4ax.com,
"Erik Setzer" <erks@comcast.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:24:32 -0500, "Berto" <Albertocarro@msn.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Erik Setzer" <erks@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:msa8b1dp3niq5ontsphagt7rfu1h48ad74@4ax.com...
>>> <BIG SNIP>
>>>
>> <REAL BIG SNIP>
>>
>> Jane, you ignorant slut....(This was before your time, Erik).Erik, you do
>> polarize an NG. Never thought I would say this. A little maturity and
>> experience may soften your stance on things, otherwise, now I know why you
>> get shunned. Man...I am speechless..Say so much and know so little. Buy a
>> newspaper for god's sake.
>
> I do so every day. And I read it, even the editorials written by
> liberals (when I can stomach their immature insults slung at
> conservatives or even moderates in their own party).
>
>> Some fellows have asked you to read a little
>> history here.
>
> Have done so, a lot.
>
>> Take their advice. They even placed links to get there
>> easier(it is those little blue letters...click on them).
>
> Being insulting doesn't help your argument.
>
> it was
> unfair for all soldiers to be painted with the same brush by such

It is unfair for any large group to be painted with the same brush but it
was (is) particularly disgusting for anti-war to morph into anti-soldiers.

> people as John Kerry and the other anti-war protestors.

Like Vietnam Veterans Against the War? These were people who had served in
Vietnam. Many had been wounded. If anyone would know what was going on
over there, I would think it would be those who served. He did not go AWOL.
He did not frag his commander. He stated before Congress (not being sneaky
or subversive, telling those in power exactly what he thought) that he
believed wrong was being done. He has paid politically on at least three
occasions for doing this. You can disagree with his opinion, but you cannot
call him a traitor or say he committed any acts of treason and maintain
credibility. Perhaps he did it because he believed. Perhaps he did it
because he thought it was the rising political fad. Perhaps he did that
instead of crawling into a drug addiction. We can't know.

Either way, I support the right of any soldier to tell us his opinion of the
war he fought. I also support the right of anyone else to believe or
disbelieve what is said - as long as they don't go throwing around
accusations of treason. Then I get this feeling that I simply must stand up
and remind folks that in a free country, we are allowed to speak out against
our government. We are allowed to protest. That keeps us free.

> We are a better society than that.
>
We are human.


janet
--
Getting off my soap box, really I am.
June 24, 2005 1:02:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.warhammer (More info?)

"Jim M" <hnjcomics@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d1dc55eba2e2df998a5e2@news.west.earthlink.net...
> It was a cold day in September when Erik Setzer entered the world pub
> known
> as rec.games.miniatures.warhammer and said...
>
>> On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:05:03 +0100, "Lt. Cmdr. Jim"
>> <ltcmdrjim@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >To kill and die to protect your
>> >country from an immediate agressor is one thing, to do the same to
>> >further some political end you don't support is quite annother.
>>
>> And on that note, I give up. If people are too stupid to understand
>> that protecting people from an invading force that they don't want is
>> not "furthering some political end", it's not worth worrying about
>> them. If Vietnam was to further some political end, then so was
>> Korea, WWI, WWII, Desert Storm, Bosnia, Kosovo, Somolia, and every war
>> in between. WWI was no threat to the US. WWII, only Japan was much
>> of a threat - the real threat in Europe was from our "allies", the
>> Soviets. So I guess then that people should have been just as eager
>> to run from those wars?
>>

Erik, just out of interest do a google on the Zimmerman telegram and see the
final straw after indiscriminate U Boat war why America declared in WW1,
while you doing that dig out the American declaration of war from WW2.

Some wars need to be fought, some are fought by choice and some are fought
because you have no other options. Where any given war sits depends on the
country and its outlook.

--
estarriol
!