[40K] 3000 pts of Bugs for review.

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Well, I'm scheduled to take on 1500 points of Vanilla Marines along with
1500 points of Space Wolves. I was going to take some of my Big Bugs
(Exocrine, Malefactor, etc.), but it looks like I won't be needing those
to fill out 3000 points worth of Nids with standard models I've already
got assembled. Here's what I'm looking at taking for the slug-fest...

3000 Pts - Tyranids Roster - Unnamed

1 Hive Tyrant @ 310 Pts
Adrenal Glands +1 In; Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Enhanced Senses +1 BS;
Extended Carapace +1 Save; Flesh Hooks; Symbiote Rippers; Toxic Miasma;
Toxin Sacs +1 St; Lash Whip & Bonesword; Venom Cannon; Synapse Creature;
The Horror; The Shadow in the Warp

2 Tyrant Guard @ [92] Pts
Flesh Hooks; Lash Whips; Rending Claws

** This I'm planning as HTH unit with shooting ability till it closes
the range. I decided to forego the Scything Talons and try the
bonesword and lash whip combo (along with the guard's lash whips) and
maisma to see if I could seriously slow down / reduce enemy HTH attacks
since I'm going to be dealing with the Wolves.

1 Carnifex @ 284 Pts
Acid Maw; Adrenal Glands +1 In; Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Bio-plasma;
Bonded Exoskeleton; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Flesh Hooks; Regenerate;
Reinforced Chitin; Symbiote Rippers; Tail Weapon - Scythe; Thornback;
Toxic Miasma; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Tusked; Crushing Claws; Scything Talons
(x1)

** Can you say 'walking-tank'? I knew you could. This thing is totally
tooled for HTH and I will likely place it in the same area as the Tyrant
and the stealers. (Though I have to laugh - last game a similar fex -
without the 5th wound - got fragged in two rounds by a damn Pred
Annilihilator.)

1 Carnifex @ 222 Pts
Adrenal Glands +1 In; Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Bonded Exoskeleton;
Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Reinforced Chitin;
Spore Cysts; Toxic Miasma; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Barbed Strangler; Twin-
linked Deathspitter (x1)

** Shooty Fex - 1 BS shot and 6 devourer shots per turn should be quite
interesting in the anti-infantry role. That fact that it can spew a
spore mine every turn is a nifty bonus too.

3 Biovore @ 165 Pts
1 Bio-acid Spore Mines @ [12] Pts

** Taking the bio-acid for the anti-infantry (AP 3) and light anti-
vehicle roll.

2 Zoanthrope @ 130 Pts
Synapse Creature; Warp Blast; Warp Field

** Mainly taking these for the extra synapse critters and to try and see
if the warp blast is moderately useful on these guys now that they get
warp field by default.


20 Gaunt Brood @ 180 Pts
Fleshborer; Without Number

20 Gaunt Brood @ 180 Pts
Fleshborer; Without Number

19 Gaunt Brood @ 171 Pts
Fleshborer; Without Number

** Plan on using at least one of these in front of the jacked-up
Stealers as cannon fodder / fire magnets. Hopefully the marines will
fail a few LD checks for shooting at desired units.

10 Genestealers @ 270 Pts
Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Rending Claws; Scything
Talons

10 Genestealers @ 270 Pts
Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Rending Claws; Scything
Talons

** After looking at the revised stealers, I noticed that they can
upgrade their SV to 4+ which means they might actually survive some
bolter fire. (Wouldn't that be a nice change?) Hopefully they'll reach
HTH and seriously kick some marine ass.

20 Hormagaunts @ 280 Pts
Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St;
Scything Talons

4 Warriors @ 180 Pts
Adrenal Glands +1 In; Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Extended Carapace +1
Save; Flesh Hooks; Leaping; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Rending Claws (x1);
Scything Talons (x1); Synapse Creature

*** These guys along with the Gaunts will form a 'fast attack' wedge
that I'm planning on driving into my opponent's line to block LOS or tie
up a Dev Squad again if possible.

3 Warriors @ 108 Pts
Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St;
Scything Talons (x1); Deathspitter; Synapse Creature

3 Warriors @ 108 Pts
Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St;
Scything Talons (x1); Deathspitter; Synapse Creature

*** Fire Support / Synapse support that will actually reasonably get the
job done when it comes to gunning down some marines.

3 Ravener @ 138 Pts
Rending Claws; Scything Talons (x1); Deathspitter

** Deep striking goodness that can attempt to punch the weak rear armor
of a vehicle, and of course the spitters are a nice bonus.

Total Roster Cost: 2996
122 Bugs in total.

My main concern will be dealing with my friends (doubtless) 15 strong
blood claws unit accompanied by his Rune Priest with Storm Caller.
Ideally I'll saturate the Blood Claws with fire from the Shooty Fex and
other units, and failing that, I'll tie it up for a turn or two with
expendable (and renewable :) gant units. Any suggestions or comments
are welcome.

Myrmidon


--
"I'm already impoverished from buying wargames minis,
and I'm too knackered for riotous living..."

-- Moramarth

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Myrmidon wrote:
> Well, I'm scheduled to take on 1500 points of Vanilla Marines along with
> 1500 points of Space Wolves. I was going to take some of my Big Bugs
> (Exocrine, Malefactor, etc.), but it looks like I won't be needing those
> to fill out 3000 points worth of Nids with standard models I've already
> got assembled. Here's what I'm looking at taking for the slug-fest...
>
> 3000 Pts - Tyranids Roster - Unnamed
>
> 1 Hive Tyrant @ 310 Pts
> Adrenal Glands +1 In; Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Enhanced Senses +1 BS;
> Extended Carapace +1 Save; Flesh Hooks; Symbiote Rippers; Toxic Miasma;
> Toxin Sacs +1 St; Lash Whip & Bonesword; Venom Cannon; Synapse Creature;
> The Horror; The Shadow in the Warp
>
> 2 Tyrant Guard @ [92] Pts
> Flesh Hooks; Lash Whips; Rending Claws
>
> ** This I'm planning as HTH unit with shooting ability till it closes
> the range. I decided to forego the Scything Talons and try the
> bonesword and lash whip combo (along with the guard's lash whips) and
> maisma to see if I could seriously slow down / reduce enemy HTH attacks
> since I'm going to be dealing with the Wolves.
>
> 1 Carnifex @ 284 Pts
> Acid Maw; Adrenal Glands +1 In; Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Bio-plasma;
> Bonded Exoskeleton; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Flesh Hooks; Regenerate;
> Reinforced Chitin; Symbiote Rippers; Tail Weapon - Scythe; Thornback;
> Toxic Miasma; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Tusked; Crushing Claws; Scything Talons
> (x1)
>
> ** Can you say 'walking-tank'? I knew you could. This thing is totally
> tooled for HTH and I will likely place it in the same area as the Tyrant
> and the stealers. (Though I have to laugh - last game a similar fex -
> without the 5th wound - got fragged in two rounds by a damn Pred
> Annilihilator.)
>
> 1 Carnifex @ 222 Pts
> Adrenal Glands +1 In; Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Bonded Exoskeleton;
> Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Reinforced Chitin;
> Spore Cysts; Toxic Miasma; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Barbed Strangler; Twin-
> linked Deathspitter (x1)
>
> ** Shooty Fex - 1 BS shot and 6 devourer shots per turn should be quite
> interesting in the anti-infantry role. That fact that it can spew a
> spore mine every turn is a nifty bonus too.
>
> 3 Biovore @ 165 Pts
> 1 Bio-acid Spore Mines @ [12] Pts
>
> ** Taking the bio-acid for the anti-infantry (AP 3) and light anti-
> vehicle roll.
>
> 2 Zoanthrope @ 130 Pts
> Synapse Creature; Warp Blast; Warp Field
>
> ** Mainly taking these for the extra synapse critters and to try and see
> if the warp blast is moderately useful on these guys now that they get
> warp field by default.
>
>
> 20 Gaunt Brood @ 180 Pts
> Fleshborer; Without Number
>
> 20 Gaunt Brood @ 180 Pts
> Fleshborer; Without Number
>
> 19 Gaunt Brood @ 171 Pts
> Fleshborer; Without Number
>
> ** Plan on using at least one of these in front of the jacked-up
> Stealers as cannon fodder / fire magnets. Hopefully the marines will
> fail a few LD checks for shooting at desired units.
>
> 10 Genestealers @ 270 Pts
> Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Rending Claws; Scything
> Talons
>
> 10 Genestealers @ 270 Pts
> Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Rending Claws; Scything
> Talons
>
> ** After looking at the revised stealers, I noticed that they can
> upgrade their SV to 4+ which means they might actually survive some
> bolter fire. (Wouldn't that be a nice change?) Hopefully they'll reach
> HTH and seriously kick some marine ass.
>
> 20 Hormagaunts @ 280 Pts
> Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St;
> Scything Talons
>
> 4 Warriors @ 180 Pts
> Adrenal Glands +1 In; Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Extended Carapace +1
> Save; Flesh Hooks; Leaping; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Rending Claws (x1);
> Scything Talons (x1); Synapse Creature
>
> *** These guys along with the Gaunts will form a 'fast attack' wedge
> that I'm planning on driving into my opponent's line to block LOS or tie
> up a Dev Squad again if possible.
>
> 3 Warriors @ 108 Pts
> Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St;
> Scything Talons (x1); Deathspitter; Synapse Creature
>
> 3 Warriors @ 108 Pts
> Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St;
> Scything Talons (x1); Deathspitter; Synapse Creature
>
> *** Fire Support / Synapse support that will actually reasonably get the
> job done when it comes to gunning down some marines.
>
> 3 Ravener @ 138 Pts
> Rending Claws; Scything Talons (x1); Deathspitter
>
> ** Deep striking goodness that can attempt to punch the weak rear armor
> of a vehicle, and of course the spitters are a nice bonus.
>
> Total Roster Cost: 2996
> 122 Bugs in total.
>
> My main concern will be dealing with my friends (doubtless) 15 strong
> blood claws unit accompanied by his Rune Priest with Storm Caller.
> Ideally I'll saturate the Blood Claws with fire from the Shooty Fex and
> other units, and failing that, I'll tie it up for a turn or two with
> expendable (and renewable :) gant units. Any suggestions or comments
> are welcome.
>
> Myrmidon
>
>

Very cool. Even though I have the codex I'm looking at butynig the big
army deal. If I get it from the Warstore the price should not be too
much. I can always sell the dex on ebay... That would take care of my
bugs for a good while.
 
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In article <MPG.1d2f11c823cc801e98a5b0@news-server.woh.rr.com>, Myrmidon wrote:

<snip list>

> Total Roster Cost: 2996
> 122 Bugs in total.

Well, I don't play bugs and I've spent about one minute flipping
through the new dex, but I'll give you my uninformed view anyway. 122
bugs in 3000-point list is a very low model count. Everything in the
list appear to have a ton of upgrades, and I know that at least some
of them are not worth the price (For example toxin sacs on something
that already has rending claws, EC that gives you a 5+ save, and
quite probably a few of the new upgrades which I don't really know
what they do). I realise this is probably because a. you want to try
out the new options the dex offers, b. a lot of the bugs start with
low stats which needs to be raised, c. you don't have an infinite
supply of bugs so they need to be fairly expensive for you to be able
to reach 3000 points. In any case I think you will do better if you
shave off all but the most vital upgrades and try to make room for one
of the Big Bugs (Exocrine, Malefactor, etc.) you mentioned, or just
use the shaved off points to buy more bugs.


--
Joakim
 

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"Myrmidon" <ImNot@home.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d2f11c823cc801e98a5b0@news-server.woh.rr.com...
> Well, I'm scheduled to take on 1500 points of Vanilla Marines along with
> 1500 points of Space Wolves. I was going to take some of my Big Bugs
> (Exocrine, Malefactor, etc.), but it looks like I won't be needing those
> to fill out 3000 points worth of Nids with standard models I've already
> got assembled. Here's what I'm looking at taking for the slug-fest...
Gosh, Myr - we never heard how this turned out . . . fill us in! ;)

Toaster
 
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"Toaster" <toaster@no.spam.eviltoaster.net> wrote in message
news:LdGdnaro8KzWlk3fRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
>
> "Myrmidon" <ImNot@home.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1d2f11c823cc801e98a5b0@news-server.woh.rr.com...
>> Well, I'm scheduled to take on 1500 points of Vanilla Marines along with
>> 1500 points of Space Wolves. I was going to take some of my Big Bugs
>> (Exocrine, Malefactor, etc.), but it looks like I won't be needing those
>> to fill out 3000 points worth of Nids with standard models I've already
>> got assembled. Here's what I'm looking at taking for the slug-fest...
> Gosh, Myr - we never heard how this turned out . . . fill us in! ;)
>
> Toaster
My God! It lives!
 

toaster

Distinguished
Jan 3, 2005
5
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"Craig Little" <craig.little@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:FoSdncJadIFelk3fRVn-sg@comcast.com...
>
> "Toaster" <toaster@no.spam.eviltoaster.net> wrote in message
> news:LdGdnaro8KzWlk3fRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
>> Toaster
> My God! It lives!
Yes, well, I'm finally starting to settle back into normal life after moving
across the country (again). Got tired of saying I've moved across the
country without actually dipping my toe in a different ocean at either end,
so I've gotten that out of the way now. I can move on with getting back to
important things, like mocking Myr, and obliterating his bugs while heavily
inebriated. . .
 
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In article <LdGdnaro8KzWlk3fRVn-uQ@comcast.com>, Toaster,
toaster@no.spam.eviltoaster.net Varfed out the following in Timo
speak...
>
> "Myrmidon" <ImNot@home.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1d2f11c823cc801e98a5b0@news-server.woh.rr.com...
> > Well, I'm scheduled to take on 1500 points of Vanilla Marines along with
> > 1500 points of Space Wolves. I was going to take some of my Big Bugs
> > (Exocrine, Malefactor, etc.), but it looks like I won't be needing those
> > to fill out 3000 points worth of Nids with standard models I've already
> > got assembled. Here's what I'm looking at taking for the slug-fest...

>
> Gosh, Myr - we never heard how this turned out . . . fill us in! ;)
>
> Toaster

<best Newbie voice...> I'VE BEEN GAYED! <end Newbie voice>

I haven't had much chance to do any writing since you left - worked
Monday & Tuesday, teaching Aiki & Kenjutsu on Wednesday evening, kids on
errands etc, Julie got a wagon load (like 50 or 60 bails) of straw that
had to go up into the loft on Thursday, and I'm working all weekend.
This of course will be followed by a 'White Water Rafting' expedition
somewhere in Virginia this coming week of course the waters should be up
with the Hurricane rain fall and all (read yet attempt by my wife to
collect on my life insurance). On the plus side though - I've got lots
of nifty pics of the battle - like my Uber-Carnifex getting melted on
turn 2 (yet again - Damn you and Augur both!) along with all those nifty
sound file notes. So fear not, I'll be sure to write up a accurate and
unbaised battle report on how my well balanced Nids were once again
wronged by the ever cheesy Space Wolves & Co. (In other words I'm going
to lie through my teeth.)

Myrmidon


--
Re: (40k) Spacewolves, how are they?

**best waiter impersonation**
They're very good this evening Sir, I recommend them with the
side serving of cranberry sauce.

-- Jon Hedge


RGMW FAQ: http://www.rgmw.org

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"Myrmidon" <ImNot@home.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d3a3d2cd0458bb498a5bf@news-server.woh.rr.com...
> In article <LdGdnaro8KzWlk3fRVn-uQ@comcast.com>, Toaster,
> toaster@no.spam.eviltoaster.net Varfed out the following in Timo
> speak...
>>

> This of course will be followed by a 'White Water Rafting' expedition
> somewhere in Virginia this coming week

Where & when? I need to set my snipers up.
 
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In article <FoSdncJadIFelk3fRVn-sg@comcast.com>, Craig Little,
craig.little@gmail.com Varfed out the following in Timo speak...
>
> "Toaster" <toaster@no.spam.eviltoaster.net> wrote in message
> news:LdGdnaro8KzWlk3fRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
> >
> > "Myrmidon" <ImNot@home.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1d2f11c823cc801e98a5b0@news-server.woh.rr.com...
> >> Well, I'm scheduled to take on 1500 points of Vanilla Marines along with
> >> 1500 points of Space Wolves. I was going to take some of my Big Bugs
> >> (Exocrine, Malefactor, etc.), but it looks like I won't be needing those
> >> to fill out 3000 points worth of Nids with standard models I've already
> >> got assembled. Here's what I'm looking at taking for the slug-fest...
> >
> > Gosh, Myr - we never heard how this turned out . . . fill us in! ;)
> >
> > Toaster
>
> My God! It lives!

Yes, often in my basement, and it drinks a lot of beer while
kicking my arse soundly round the 40K gaming table too. Next time I'm
going to have to resort to Old Bear's evil tricks to win. (And yes, I
mean pastys, g-string, and singing 'I'm so pretty, so so pretty'.)

Myr

--
"I'm already impoverished from buying wargames minis,
and I'm too knackered for riotous living..."

-- Moramarth

RGMW FAQ: http://www.rgmw.org

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In article <slrndchvqn.nv0.nouser@crux.id.gu.se>, jockelinde,
nouser@notmydomain.se Varfed out the following in Timo speak...
> In article <MPG.1d2f11c823cc801e98a5b0@news-server.woh.rr.com>, Myrmidon wrote:
>
> <snip list>
>
> > Total Roster Cost: 2996
> > 122 Bugs in total.
>
> Well, I don't play bugs and I've spent about one minute flipping
> through the new dex, but I'll give you my uninformed view anyway. 122
> bugs in 3000-point list is a very low model count. Everything in the
> list appear to have a ton of upgrades, and I know that at least some
> of them are not worth the price (For example toxin sacs on something
> that already has rending claws, EC that gives you a 5+ save, and
> quite probably a few of the new upgrades which I don't really know
> what they do).

Well, here's a few thoughts on the selections (and yes, part of it was
driven by what models I had painted and assembled).

1. As for toxin sacs with rending - rending only works on a D6 roll of
6 - anything else counts as an ordinary attack and does *not* auto-wound
with no armor save. Thus on warriors, the toxin sacs are worth while
not only for the increased chance of inflicting 'regular' saveable
wounds on tough foes like Marines - it increases the likelihood of
actually getting a penetrating hit on light to medium armored vehicles
(an area of weakness for the bugs) as well.

2. The extended chitten upgrade is a bit different in 4th Ed. With
Gaunts, the best they can get is 5+ which is useless against bolter fire
for example. But since they move 6 +D6 inches per turn with a 12 inch
charge range, they have a fairly decent chance of making it into melee
combat without taking a lot of fire, so a 1pt upgrade gives them a 1/3
chance of surviving standard wounds (and thus tying up a foe longer /
staying around to inflict more wounds) rather than only a 1/6 chance.

The real difference (that I didn't notice on first read of the new Nids
codex) is that Stealers are now 5+ sv by default and can be upgraded to
4+ - thus allowing them a 50/50 chance to save against bolter fire.
While this does jack up the cost of the Stealers a good bit - increasing
their chances to get into HTH is a huge plus. They're all around can-
openers chewing up vehicles and infantry alike with that many rending
claws/talons - especially on the charge.

I would never recommend it on gants, but on some of the other stuff,
it's a lot more of a reasonable option now than it used to be. (For
example I never used it on stealers in 3rd Ed. as a 5+ save wasn't worth
the points for them since they usually got shot to bits by AP 5 weapons
long before they reached HTH.)

> I realise this is probably because a. you want to try
> out the new options the dex offers, b. a lot of the bugs start with
> low stats which needs to be raised, c. you don't have an infinite
> supply of bugs so they need to be fairly expensive for you to be able
> to reach 3000 points. In any case I think you will do better if you
> shave off all but the most vital upgrades and try to make room for one
> of the Big Bugs (Exocrine, Malefactor, etc.) you mentioned, or just
> use the shaved off points to buy more bugs.

Well, once I get all the little critters painted I'll have
something like 120 of the (old 2nd Ed) gants, plus a load of the newer
ones armed with Devourers and spine-fists as well as 90+ gaunts, but at
the moment I've got far fewer than that table ready. I think the first
thing I'll really worry about beefing up is my Warrior count since
they're one hell of a lot more useful now and well worth the points.

From my first couple of games with the new codex, the trick to
effectively using the Monstrous creatures seems to be to concentrate on
buying more 'medium' or even 'low-end' creatures and swamping your foe
rather than sinking a lot of points into only one or two of the big
guys. So I'd have to agree with your assessment that more bugs is
better even with the new bio-morphs in 4th Ed. (Still, it's really nice
{finally} to be able to field a moderately shooty Nids force and have a
reasonable chance of doing well with it.) As you can probably guess
from my friend Toaster's (boat-anchor) subtle hints - I did indeed get
spanked in the 1500 point game we played. :) Though he was rather
surprised at the number of marines that fell to projectile fire from the
Nids. That being said, poor setup on my part and an abysmal performance
by my Monstrous Critters sealed my fate in that battle.

Myrmidon

--
All good (color) choices, but they don't carry the impact of the #7
"Over-ripe bananagaunt." Nothing says fear the tyranids like slightly
aged fruit.

-Maka

RGMW FAQ: http://www.rgmw.org

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In article <MPG.1d3a47e03e5bf3898a5c1@news-server.woh.rr.com>, Myrmidon wrote:
> In article <slrndchvqn.nv0.nouser@crux.id.gu.se>, jockelinde,
> nouser@notmydomain.se Varfed out the following in Timo speak...
>> In article <MPG.1d2f11c823cc801e98a5b0@news-server.woh.rr.com>, Myrmidon wrote:
>>
>> <snip list>
>>
>> > Total Roster Cost: 2996
>> > 122 Bugs in total.
>>
>> Well, I don't play bugs and I've spent about one minute flipping
>> through the new dex, but I'll give you my uninformed view anyway. 122
>> bugs in 3000-point list is a very low model count. Everything in the
>> list appear to have a ton of upgrades, and I know that at least some
>> of them are not worth the price (For example toxin sacs on something
>> that already has rending claws, EC that gives you a 5+ save, and
>> quite probably a few of the new upgrades which I don't really know
>> what they do).
>
> Well, here's a few thoughts on the selections (and yes, part of it was
> driven by what models I had painted and assembled).
>
> 1. As for toxin sacs with rending - rending only works on a D6 roll of
> 6 - anything else counts as an ordinary attack and does *not* auto-wound
> with no armor save. Thus on warriors, the toxin sacs are worth while
> not only for the increased chance of inflicting 'regular' saveable
> wounds on tough foes like Marines - it increases the likelihood of
> actually getting a penetrating hit on light to medium armored vehicles
> (an area of weakness for the bugs) as well.
>
> 2. The extended chitten upgrade is a bit different in 4th Ed. With
> Gaunts, the best they can get is 5+ which is useless against bolter fire
> for example. But since they move 6 +D6 inches per turn with a 12 inch
> charge range, they have a fairly decent chance of making it into melee
> combat without taking a lot of fire, so a 1pt upgrade gives them a 1/3
> chance of surviving standard wounds (and thus tying up a foe longer /
> staying around to inflict more wounds) rather than only a 1/6 chance.
>
> The real difference (that I didn't notice on first read of the new Nids
> codex) is that Stealers are now 5+ sv by default and can be upgraded to
> 4+ - thus allowing them a 50/50 chance to save against bolter fire.
> While this does jack up the cost of the Stealers a good bit - increasing
> their chances to get into HTH is a huge plus. They're all around can-
> openers chewing up vehicles and infantry alike with that many rending
> claws/talons - especially on the charge.
>
> I would never recommend it on gants, but on some of the other stuff,
> it's a lot more of a reasonable option now than it used to be. (For
> example I never used it on stealers in 3rd Ed. as a 5+ save wasn't worth
> the points for them since they usually got shot to bits by AP 5 weapons
> long before they reached HTH.)

Going from a 5+ save to a 4+ save is a pretty big deal and is worth
paying a few points for. But I'm not so sure about paying even one point
per model for going from a 6+ save to a 5+ save. It all contributes to
making the small bugs more expensive. You ended up with 14 point
gaunts, right? That's almost as expensive as a marine.

>> I realise this is probably because a. you want to try
>> out the new options the dex offers, b. a lot of the bugs start with
>> low stats which needs to be raised, c. you don't have an infinite
>> supply of bugs so they need to be fairly expensive for you to be able
>> to reach 3000 points. In any case I think you will do better if you
>> shave off all but the most vital upgrades and try to make room for one
>> of the Big Bugs (Exocrine, Malefactor, etc.) you mentioned, or just
>> use the shaved off points to buy more bugs.
>
> Well, once I get all the little critters painted I'll have
> something like 120 of the (old 2nd Ed) gants, plus a load of the newer
> ones armed with Devourers and spine-fists as well as 90+ gaunts, but at
> the moment I've got far fewer than that table ready.

I believe that more cheap small bugs will help.

> I think the first
> thing I'll really worry about beefing up is my Warrior count since
> they're one hell of a lot more useful now and well worth the points.

No insta-kill was what they needed. The fluff justification is a bit
shaky though.

> From my first couple of games with the new codex, the trick to
> effectively using the Monstrous creatures seems to be to concentrate on
> buying more 'medium' or even 'low-end' creatures and swamping your foe
> rather than sinking a lot of points into only one or two of the big
> guys.

There's a giganting post on dakkadakka regarding upgrades/weapons for
Carnifexes. I have not read it all (or the codex for that matter) so I
can't be sure if it's any good, but it's probably worth a look for nid
players.

> So I'd have to agree with your assessment that more bugs is
> better even with the new bio-morphs in 4th Ed. (Still, it's really nice
> {finally} to be able to field a moderately shooty Nids force and have a
> reasonable chance of doing well with it.) As you can probably guess
> from my friend Toaster's (boat-anchor) subtle hints

What hint?

> - I did indeed get
> spanked in the 1500 point game we played. :) Though he was rather
> surprised at the number of marines that fell to projectile fire from the
> Nids.

I'm an ork player, so I know about nid shooting. The local nid player
always pie plate my poor orks to death. But with the new dex there
will be no more pie plates from biovores, right?

> That being said, poor setup on my part and an abysmal performance
> by my Monstrous Critters sealed my fate in that battle.

Better luck next time.

--
Joakim
 
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In article <slrndd4em9.72h.nouser@crux.id.gu.se>, jockelinde,
nouser@notmydomain.se Varfed out the following in Timo speak...
> In article <MPG.1d3a47e03e5bf3898a5c1@news-server.woh.rr.com>, Myrmidon wrote:
> > In article <slrndchvqn.nv0.nouser@crux.id.gu.se>, jockelinde,
<snippage>
>
> Going from a 5+ save to a 4+ save is a pretty big deal and is worth
> paying a few points for. But I'm not so sure about paying even one point
> per model for going from a 6+ save to a 5+ save. It all contributes to
> making the small bugs more expensive. You ended up with 14 point
> gaunts, right? That's almost as expensive as a marine.
>
Nope - standard gaunt is only 10 points - you'd have to give it
toxin sacs (+1 S) both adrenal glands (+1 I & +1 WS) and the +1 Sv to
get it up to 15 points.

> >> I realise this is probably because a. you want to try
> >> out the new options the dex offers, b. a lot of the bugs start with
> >> low stats which needs to be raised, c. you don't have an infinite
> >> supply of bugs so they need to be fairly expensive for you to be able
> >> to reach 3000 points. In any case I think you will do better if you
> >> shave off all but the most vital upgrades and try to make room for one
> >> of the Big Bugs (Exocrine, Malefactor, etc.) you mentioned, or just
> >> use the shaved off points to buy more bugs.
> >
> > Well, once I get all the little critters painted I'll have
> > something like 120 of the (old 2nd Ed) gants, plus a load of the newer
> > ones armed with Devourers and spine-fists as well as 90+ gaunts, but at
> > the moment I've got far fewer than that table ready.
>
> I believe that more cheap small bugs will help.

Up to a point - this will give me greater advantage against
*infantry* type units. It'll do zip against vehicles. And any decent
40K force generally has a mix of infantry and vehicles.
>
> > I think the first
> > thing I'll really worry about beefing up is my Warrior count since
> > they're one hell of a lot more useful now and well worth the points.
>
> No insta-kill was what they needed. The fluff justification is a bit
> shaky though.

True - GW has been rather 'shakey' on their fluff and backstory
the in 3rd and 4th Edition both. But weak fluff aside, I'm glad
Warriors are finally of some utility again. They can be expensive, but
they've done a decent job earning their points back so far gunning down
marines and even termies, as well as the assault warriors tearing things
a new one in HTH.

>
> > From my first couple of games with the new codex, the trick to
> > effectively using the Monstrous creatures seems to be to concentrate on
> > buying more 'medium' or even 'low-end' creatures and swamping your foe
> > rather than sinking a lot of points into only one or two of the big
> > guys.
>
> There's a giganting post on dakkadakka regarding upgrades/weapons for
> Carnifexes. I have not read it all (or the codex for that matter) so I
> can't be sure if it's any good, but it's probably worth a look for nid
> players.

Cool. Any idea what the tread title is or what area of the board
it's in? I'm not a regular Dakka reader.

>
> > So I'd have to agree with your assessment that more bugs is
> > better even with the new bio-morphs in 4th Ed. (Still, it's really nice
> > {finally} to be able to field a moderately shooty Nids force and have a
> > reasonable chance of doing well with it.) As you can probably guess
> > from my friend Toaster's (boat-anchor) subtle hints
>
> What hint?

In article <LdGdnaro8KzWlk3fRVn-uQ@comcast.com>, Toaster,
toaster@no.spam.eviltoaster.net Varfed out the following in Timo
speak...
>
> "Myrmidon" <ImNot@home.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1d2f11c823cc801e98a5b0@news-server.woh.rr.com...
> > Well, I'm scheduled to take on 1500 points of Vanilla Marines along with
> > 1500 points of Space Wolves. I was going to take some of my Big Bugs
> > (Exocrine, Malefactor, etc.), but it looks like I won't be needing those
> > to fill out 3000 points worth of Nids with standard models I've already
> > got assembled. Here's what I'm looking at taking for the slug-fest...
>
> Gosh, Myr - we never heard how this turned out . . . fill us in! ;)
>
> Toaster
>
Toaster of course being my cheesey Space Wolves playing friend who
was part of the 2 part team that shot up my bugs last game. ;)


>
> > - I did indeed get
> > spanked in the 1500 point game we played. :) Though he was rather
> > surprised at the number of marines that fell to projectile fire from the
> > Nids.
>
> I'm an ork player, so I know about nid shooting. The local nid player
> always pie plate my poor orks to death. But with the new dex there
> will be no more pie plates from biovores, right?

Sort of - they no longer use the giant pie plate, but due to the
new template rules for 'barrage' weapons they still can lay 3 of the
smaller blast templates edge to edge and cover a good sized area if a
unit of 3 bio-vores hits their target. I still haven't decided if I
like the new vore rules as I still haven't fielded a unit of them yet
under the new rules.

>
> > That being said, poor setup on my part and an abysmal performance
> > by my Monstrous Critters sealed my fate in that battle.
>
> Better luck next time.

Bring on the Beer! Bring on the Bugs! (Yeah, I'm liking the new
4th edition game play so far.)

Myrmidon



--
"I'm already impoverished from buying wargames minis,
and I'm too knackered for riotous living..."

-- Moramarth

RGMW FAQ: http://www.rgmw.org

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http://www.sheppard.demon.co.uk/rgmw_faq/rgmw_faq.htm
 
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In article <MPG.1d3c5799d311a94d98a5c4@news-server.woh.rr.com>, Myrmidon wrote:
> In article <slrndd4em9.72h.nouser@crux.id.gu.se>, jockelinde,
> nouser@notmydomain.se Varfed out the following in Timo speak...
>> In article <MPG.1d3a47e03e5bf3898a5c1@news-server.woh.rr.com>, Myrmidon wrote:
>> > In article <slrndchvqn.nv0.nouser@crux.id.gu.se>, jockelinde,
><snippage>
>>
>> Going from a 5+ save to a 4+ save is a pretty big deal and is worth
>> paying a few points for. But I'm not so sure about paying even one point
>> per model for going from a 6+ save to a 5+ save. It all contributes to
>> making the small bugs more expensive. You ended up with 14 point
>> gaunts, right? That's almost as expensive as a marine.
>>
> Nope - standard gaunt is only 10 points - you'd have to give it
> toxin sacs (+1 S) both adrenal glands (+1 I & +1 WS) and the +1 Sv to
> get it up to 15 points.

I did write *almost* as expensive.

btw Are the standard gaunts WS3 and I3? If that's the case then both
types adrenal glands will make a rather big difference when fighting
marines.

<snip>

>> I believe that more cheap small bugs will help.
>
> Up to a point - this will give me greater advantage against
> *infantry* type units. It'll do zip against vehicles. And any decent
> 40K force generally has a mix of infantry and vehicles.

True.

<snip>

>> There's a giganting post on dakkadakka regarding upgrades/weapons for
>> Carnifexes. I have not read it all (or the codex for that matter) so I
>> can't be sure if it's any good, but it's probably worth a look for nid
>> players.
>
> Cool. Any idea what the tread title is or what area of the board
> it's in? I'm not a regular Dakka reader.

40k/Tactics/Tatica: Equipping your Carnifex (warning! very. very.
very. long)

>>
>> > So I'd have to agree with your assessment that more bugs is
>> > better even with the new bio-morphs in 4th Ed. (Still, it's really nice
>> > {finally} to be able to field a moderately shooty Nids force and have a
>> > reasonable chance of doing well with it.) As you can probably guess
>> > from my friend Toaster's (boat-anchor) subtle hints
>>
>> What hint?

<snip hint>

I *had* noticed the hint, I was merely pretending that the hint was
more subtle than it was ;-)

> Toaster of course being my cheesey Space Wolves playing friend who
> was part of the 2 part team that shot up my bugs last game. ;)
>
>>
>> > - I did indeed get
>> > spanked in the 1500 point game we played. :) Though he was rather
>> > surprised at the number of marines that fell to projectile fire from the
>> > Nids.
>>
>> I'm an ork player, so I know about nid shooting. The local nid player
>> always pie plate my poor orks to death. But with the new dex there
>> will be no more pie plates from biovores, right?
>
> Sort of - they no longer use the giant pie plate, but due to the
> new template rules for 'barrage' weapons they still can lay 3 of the
> smaller blast templates edge to edge and cover a good sized area if a
> unit of 3 bio-vores hits their target. I still haven't decided if I
> like the new vore rules as I still haven't fielded a unit of them yet
> under the new rules.

Well, a potential three small blast templates in one place is a lot
less destructive than a potential three pie plates anywhere.


--
Joakim
 
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In article <slrndd559h.9g5.nouser@crux.id.gu.se>, jockelinde,
nouser@notmydomain.se Varfed out the following in Timo speak...
> In article <MPG.1d3c5799d311a94d98a5c4@news-server.woh.rr.com>, Myrmidon wrote:
> > In article <slrndd4em9.72h.nouser@crux.id.gu.se>, jockelinde,
> > nouser@notmydomain.se Varfed out the following in Timo speak...
> >> In article <MPG.1d3a47e03e5bf3898a5c1@news-server.woh.rr.com>, Myrmidon wrote:
> >> > In article <slrndchvqn.nv0.nouser@crux.id.gu.se>, jockelinde,
> ><snippage>
> >>
> >> Going from a 5+ save to a 4+ save is a pretty big deal and is worth
> >> paying a few points for. But I'm not so sure about paying even one point
> >> per model for going from a 6+ save to a 5+ save. It all contributes to
> >> making the small bugs more expensive. You ended up with 14 point
> >> gaunts, right? That's almost as expensive as a marine.
> >>
> > Nope - standard gaunt is only 10 points - you'd have to give it
> > toxin sacs (+1 S) both adrenal glands (+1 I & +1 WS) and the +1 Sv to
> > get it up to 15 points.
>
> I did write *almost* as expensive.
>
> btw Are the standard gaunts WS3 and I3? If that's the case then both
> types adrenal glands will make a rather big difference when fighting
> marines.

They're I4 by default - but only S3, so generally I'd consider +1
Sv (1pt) and perhaps +1 T (2pts) for a total of 13 pts. Generally I
don't expect the gaunts to kill a lot. I *DO* expect them to quickly
tie up shooty units *AND* create LOS blocking effects to my other bugs.
To do this effectively, they have to last more than one turn in HTH
which is where the 5+ save starts to help.


>
> <snip>
>
> >> I believe that more cheap small bugs will help.
> >
> > Up to a point - this will give me greater advantage against
> > *infantry* type units. It'll do zip against vehicles. And any decent
> > 40K force generally has a mix of infantry and vehicles.
>
> True.
>
> <snip>
>
> >> There's a giganting post on dakkadakka regarding upgrades/weapons for
> >> Carnifexes. I have not read it all (or the codex for that matter) so I
> >> can't be sure if it's any good, but it's probably worth a look for nid
> >> players.
> >
> > Cool. Any idea what the tread title is or what area of the board
> > it's in? I'm not a regular Dakka reader.
>
> 40k/Tactics/Tatica: Equipping your Carnifex (warning! very. very.
> very. long)
>
Thank you very much!

> >>
> >> > So I'd have to agree with your assessment that more bugs is
> >> > better even with the new bio-morphs in 4th Ed. (Still, it's really nice
> >> > {finally} to be able to field a moderately shooty Nids force and have a
> >> > reasonable chance of doing well with it.) As you can probably guess
> >> > from my friend Toaster's (boat-anchor) subtle hints
> >>
> >> What hint?
>
> <snip hint>
>
> I *had* noticed the hint, I was merely pretending that the hint was
> more subtle than it was ;-)

Doh! Thought that perhaps your news server simply hadn't gotten
his post. :~/ Damn you and your subtlety.
>
> > Toaster of course being my cheesey Space Wolves playing friend who
> > was part of the 2 part team that shot up my bugs last game. ;)
> >
> >>
> >> > - I did indeed get
> >> > spanked in the 1500 point game we played. :) Though he was rather
> >> > surprised at the number of marines that fell to projectile fire from the
> >> > Nids.
> >>
> >> I'm an ork player, so I know about nid shooting. The local nid player
> >> always pie plate my poor orks to death. But with the new dex there
> >> will be no more pie plates from biovores, right?
> >
> > Sort of - they no longer use the giant pie plate, but due to the
> > new template rules for 'barrage' weapons they still can lay 3 of the
> > smaller blast templates edge to edge and cover a good sized area if a
> > unit of 3 bio-vores hits their target. I still haven't decided if I
> > like the new vore rules as I still haven't fielded a unit of them yet
> > under the new rules.
>
> Well, a potential three small blast templates in one place is a lot
> less destructive than a potential three pie plates anywhere.

Yeah, it definitely diminishes their effectiveness. The problem
isn't so much the lack of huge templates, but the fact that you can
effectively only take one artillery unit in a Nids army, unlike IG for
example that could take 3 mortar squads if they wanted. The Carnifex
'spore cyst' bio-morph seems like mostly a waste of points as well since
have the game is spent just trying to get one's slow moving Fex across
the board. (9 out of 10 times the random moving spore mines aren't
going to be anywhere near the enemy unless the enemy comes to the nids -
and how likely is that?).

Myrmidon



--
"I'm already impoverished from buying wargames minis,
and I'm too knackered for riotous living..."

-- Moramarth

RGMW FAQ: http://www.rgmw.org

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In article <MPG.1d3c664947e1f4d698a5c8@news-server.woh.rr.com>, Myrmidon wrote:

<snip>

> Yeah, it definitely diminishes their effectiveness. The problem
> isn't so much the lack of huge templates, but the fact that you can
> effectively only take one artillery unit in a Nids army, unlike IG for
> example that could take 3 mortar squads if they wanted.

Before the release of the codex there were rumours that nid players
would be given the option of taking deep striking spore mines as a
fast attack choice. That could work kind of like an extra artillery
unit. Were those rumours false?

> The Carnifex
> 'spore cyst' bio-morph seems like mostly a waste of points as well since
> have the game is spent just trying to get one's slow moving Fex across
> the board. (9 out of 10 times the random moving spore mines aren't
> going to be anywhere near the enemy unless the enemy comes to the nids -
> and how likely is that?).

The spore cyst bio-morph is a very cool idea, but as you pointed out
the lack of speed and control make them rather useless.


--
Joakim