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Acronis True Image or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?

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  • Norton
  • Symantec
  • Windows XP
  • Product
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Anonymous
July 31, 2005 12:23:01 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

I have XP Home on my computer and am useing XP's backup program and system
restore to keep out of trouble but after reading alot of post on this
newsgroup I have decided I need a better way to back up my OS.
I would like to know which is the best and easiest to use Acronis True Image
or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?
Any useful comments would be welcome.
Foxhole

More about : acronis true image symantec norton ghost

Anonymous
July 31, 2005 1:09:01 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

I prefer Acronis, but I haven't used Ghost for many, many years. I've heard
of recent improvements in Ghost tho'

"Foxhole" wrote:

> I have XP Home on my computer and am useing XP's backup program and system
> restore to keep out of trouble but after reading alot of post on this
> newsgroup I have decided I need a better way to back up my OS.
> I would like to know which is the best and easiest to use Acronis True Image
> or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?
> Any useful comments would be welcome.
> Foxhole
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 1:18:02 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

Ghost was unusable with my system. Received a refund from Norton. Purchased
Acronis and have been very happy with the software. No problems with USB hard
drive or local network use. Easy to use-no manual necessary.
Related resources
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 1:21:32 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

I use Norton Ghost. I do not have Norton installed on my PC though - I just
use the boot Ghost floppy I made on another machine to boot up the PC - then
create the image file on either optical media or on a secondary drive.

I find it extremely easy to use and very fast. It can do my system drive
back up in under 10 minutes - with a hard drive write.

The floppy utility can do a restore too. The one time I had to do a restore,
it took just over eight minutes. My system is around 6 GB in size
uncompressed. All my documents and work files are on dedicated secondary
drives.

Janus


"Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:73B1B840-3032-4BF8-B64C-F09BF69C57D0@microsoft.com...
>I have XP Home on my computer and am useing XP's backup program and system
> restore to keep out of trouble but after reading alot of post on this
> newsgroup I have decided I need a better way to back up my OS.
> I would like to know which is the best and easiest to use Acronis True
> Image
> or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?
> Any useful comments would be welcome.
> Foxhole
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 4:04:08 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

Foxhole wrote:
> I have XP Home on my computer and am useing XP's backup program and system
> restore to keep out of trouble but after reading alot of post on this
> newsgroup I have decided I need a better way to back up my OS.
> I would like to know which is the best and easiest to use Acronis True Image
> or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?
> Any useful comments would be welcome.
> Foxhole

I have used Acronis, Ghost 2003, Ghost 9, but they all had issues with
my RAID 0 setup. I discovered Paragon Drive Backup 7.0 and I have had
no problems since.

shaka
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 4:14:54 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

My vote is for Ghost 9.0 and the subsequent updates to the same.

--
Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User

Quote from: George Ankner
"If you knew as much as you thought you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!"

"Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:73B1B840-3032-4BF8-B64C-F09BF69C57D0@microsoft.com...
>I have XP Home on my computer and am useing XP's backup program and system
> restore to keep out of trouble but after reading alot of post on this
> newsgroup I have decided I need a better way to back up my OS.
> I would like to know which is the best and easiest to use Acronis True
> Image
> or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?
> Any useful comments would be welcome.
> Foxhole
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 6:01:52 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

"Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:73B1B840-3032-4BF8-B64C-F09BF69C57D0@microsoft.com...
>I have XP Home on my computer and am useing XP's backup program and system
> restore to keep out of trouble but after reading alot of post on this
> newsgroup I have decided I need a better way to back up my OS.
> I would like to know which is the best and easiest to use Acronis True
> Image
> or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?
> Any useful comments would be welcome.
> Foxhole

I pretty much don't like anything Norton since Symantec bought it out.
Pity. Norton Utilities was a great program. I was a beta tester (one of
thousands, I'm sure) for V3.2 (I think).

I use True Image V8.0 (forgot which build) and couldn't be happier. I make
a clone once a month to a removable hard drive. I also make a full disk
image once a month to a drive in a USB enclosure (with weekly incremental
images). I've used the clone drive a couple of times when my main drive got
spyware laden. I've never tried to restore the image.
--
Bearman
If it's got tits, tires, tubes, or transistors, it's trouble.
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 7:41:05 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

This was my exact experience.

"Earl" <address@nowhere> wrote in message
news:9A00FED6-0E9A-4B25-995D-592C3A36D252@microsoft.com...
> Ghost was unusable with my system. Received a refund from Norton.
> Purchased
> Acronis and have been very happy with the software. No problems with USB
> hard
> drive or local network use. Easy to use-no manual necessary.
July 31, 2005 9:12:49 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

"Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:73B1B840-3032-4BF8-B64C-F09BF69C57D0@microsoft.com...
> I have XP Home on my computer and am useing XP's backup program and system
> restore to keep out of trouble but after reading alot of post on this
> newsgroup I have decided I need a better way to back up my OS.
> I would like to know which is the best and easiest to use Acronis True
Image
> or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?
> Any useful comments would be welcome.
> Foxhole

Without a doubt it is Acronis True Image. It is easy to understand and easy
to use
Blair
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 9:33:24 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

"Cymbal Man Freq." wrote:
> The Perfect Backup Approach by Gene Barlow: He used
> to sell PQ's Drive Image products until Symantec bought
> it out and incorporated it into Norton Ghost 9.
> Now he extolls the virtues of Acronis.
>
> http://www.rcsi.org/Newsletter/2004/Oct04Monitor.pdf
>
>
> Other newsletters from the same organization:
>
> http://www.rcsi.org/newsletr.htm


I use Casper XP for cloning my entire system partition.
to another HD - either a "secondary" internal HD or a HD on a
removable tray. If you have to switch systems, all you have to
do is reboot, reset the BIOS's HD boot order so that it sends
control to the secondary HD, then let it start up the clone system.
Casper XP is downloadable in free trial form from FSS Dev's
website at http://www.fssdev.com/products/casperxp/ . I put
archive versions of my primary system onto a large capacity HD
(which True Image cannot do) which is housed in a removable
HD tray that is made by Kingwin. I've found that their model
with the fan in bottom of the removable tray keeps the HD nice
and cool. It's all aluminum, and you can currently find the rack
and tray set on the Web going for $24. See Kingwin's website
for details:
http://www.kingwin.com/pdut_detail.asp?LineID=&CateID=2...

You can use several trays, each with a different HD, and use them
with the same rack. I've seen just the tray going for around $14.

When you make a clone, though, be sure to start up the new clone
for the 1st time with its "parent" system not visible to it. You can do
this by unplugging the "parent" HD. If you don't, the clone will
permanently depend on the presence of its "parent", and it will
never become an independent "adult" system. After its first bootup,
the new clone can be booted with the "parent" present, and it will
see the "parent" as just another partition having an accessible file
structure.

*TimDaniels*
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 9:52:01 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

"bearman" wrote:

>
> "Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:73B1B840-3032-4BF8-B64C-F09BF69C57D0@microsoft.com...
> >I have XP Home on my computer and am useing XP's backup program and system
> > restore to keep out of trouble but after reading alot of post on this
> > newsgroup I have decided I need a better way to back up my OS.
> > I would like to know which is the best and easiest to use Acronis True
> > Image
> > or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?
> > Any useful comments would be welcome.
> > Foxhole
>
> I pretty much don't like anything Norton since Symantec bought it out.
> Pity. Norton Utilities was a great program. I was a beta tester (one of
> thousands, I'm sure) for V3.2 (I think).
>
> I use True Image V8.0 (forgot which build) and couldn't be happier. I make
> a clone once a month to a removable hard drive. I also make a full disk
> image once a month to a drive in a USB enclosure (with weekly incremental
> images). I've used the clone drive a couple of times when my main drive got
> spyware laden. I've never tried to restore the image.
> --
> Bearman
> If it's got tits, tires, tubes, or transistors, it's trouble.
>
>
>
Thank you everyone for taking your time to offer your comments and
suggestions.

Foxhole
July 31, 2005 11:52:44 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:23:01 -0700, "Foxhole"
<Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>I have XP Home on my computer and am useing XP's backup program and system
>restore to keep out of trouble but after reading alot of post on this
>newsgroup I have decided I need a better way to back up my OS.
>I would like to know which is the best and easiest to use Acronis True Image
>or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?
>Any useful comments would be welcome.
>Foxhole

Ghost works fine but uses .NET framework which I feel is very
undesirable and will avoid to the bitter end.

Acronis is superb software, no problems, simple, does exactly what it
says on the tin, used if for months and restored several times.

No problems, no cryptic error messages - just works.

Jonah
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 1:14:27 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

Both have an Achilles heel, they are different, that most users will never
see.
Therefore, its your money, your choice.

Just bear in mind you need something to save the resulting image to. Cannot
be the partition XP is installed on, if restoring to same location.

"Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:73B1B840-3032-4BF8-B64C-F09BF69C57D0@microsoft.com...
> I have XP Home on my computer and am useing XP's backup program and system
> restore to keep out of trouble but after reading alot of post on this
> newsgroup I have decided I need a better way to back up my OS.
> I would like to know which is the best and easiest to use Acronis True
Image
> or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?
> Any useful comments would be welcome.
> Foxhole
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 7:51:24 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

I used Norton's Ghost for years, but switched to True Image about a
year ago.

I heartily recommend True Image.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 8:49:05 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

"The Cuddly Curmudgeon" wrote:

> I used Norton's Ghost for years, but switched to True Image about a
> year ago.
>
> I heartily recommend True Image.
>
>


Again I thank everyone for taking time to post your comments and suggestions.
Foxhole
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 9:41:09 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

I use TrueImage. An image file of my "C" drive (20 GB used) takes 8 minutes to create and 7 minutes to restore.

--
Just my 2¢ worth,
Jeff
__________in response to__________

"Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:73B1B840-3032-4BF8-B64C-F09BF69C57D0@microsoft.com...
|I have XP Home on my computer and am useing XP's backup program and system
| restore to keep out of trouble but after reading alot of post on this
| newsgroup I have decided I need a better way to back up my OS.
| I would like to know which is the best and easiest to use Acronis True Image
| or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?
| Any useful comments would be welcome.
| Foxhole
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 7:49:03 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

"Lil' Dave" wrote:

> Both have an Achilles heel, they are different, that most users will never
> see.
> Therefore, its your money, your choice.
>
> Just bear in mind you need something to save the resulting image to. Cannot
> be the partition XP is installed on, if restoring to same location.

I will be backing up to external hard drive and dvd as I do now using XP's
backup utility. Thanks to all.
Foxhole







>
> "Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:73B1B840-3032-4BF8-B64C-F09BF69C57D0@microsoft.com...
> > I have XP Home on my computer and am useing XP's backup program and system
> > restore to keep out of trouble but after reading alot of post on this
> > newsgroup I have decided I need a better way to back up my OS.
> > I would like to know which is the best and easiest to use Acronis True
> Image
> > or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?
> > Any useful comments would be welcome.
> > Foxhole
>
>
>
August 2, 2005 8:03:09 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

"Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:C183A6F7-C722-4550-B8A9-608769820B3B@microsoft.com...
>
>
> "The Cuddly Curmudgeon" wrote:
>
> > I used Norton's Ghost for years, but switched to True Image about a
> > year ago.
> >
> > I heartily recommend True Image.
> >
> >
>
>
> Again I thank everyone for taking time to post your comments and
suggestions.
>

We are all interested in your decision?
Blair
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 8:03:10 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

"Blair" wrote:

>
> "Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:C183A6F7-C722-4550-B8A9-608769820B3B@microsoft.com...
> >
> >
> > "The Cuddly Curmudgeon" wrote:
> >
> > > I used Norton's Ghost for years, but switched to True Image about a
> > > year ago.
> > >
> > > I heartily recommend True Image.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Again I thank everyone for taking time to post your comments and
> suggestions.
> >
>
> We are all interested in your decision?
> Blair
>
>
>
Acronis True Image as more people supported that but if I don't like it then
I will try Ghost. I have purchased a lot of software that I didn't like after
installed so I try to ask people what they use and why.
Thanks for responding.
Foxhole
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 8:22:12 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

Foxhole wrote:

> Acronis True Image as more people supported that but if
> I don't like it then I will try Ghost.

You will NOT be disappointed.

I GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR-OWN-TEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

I own Ghost, and that shareware program (Image for DOS/Windows) that is
always being touted here by the MVPs, but True Image is my GO-to
cloner/imager.
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 9:00:01 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

"The Cuddly Curmudgeon" wrote:

> Foxhole wrote:
>
> > Acronis True Image as more people supported that but if
> > I don't like it then I will try Ghost.
>
> You will NOT be disappointed.
>
> I GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR-OWN-TEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
>
> I own Ghost, and that shareware program (Image for DOS/Windows) that is
> always being touted here by the MVPs, but True Image is my GO-to
> cloner/imager.
>
>
Thanks again I appreciate the info.
Foxhole
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 8:51:49 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

True Image is easy to use and to restore a hard drive.
Even though symantec bought drive image from power quest, it doesn't seem to
be as easy as drive image was when it was owned by powerquest.

--
Indera
* * * * * * * * * *
Don't just live life.
Live life well.


"Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:73B1B840-3032-4BF8-B64C-F09BF69C57D0@microsoft.com...
: I have XP Home on my computer and am useing XP's backup program and system
: restore to keep out of trouble but after reading alot of post on this
: newsgroup I have decided I need a better way to back up my OS.
: I would like to know which is the best and easiest to use Acronis True
Image
: or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?
: Any useful comments would be welcome.
: Foxhole
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 8:51:50 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

"Dr. Indera" wrote:

> True Image is easy to use and to restore a hard drive.
> Even though symantec bought drive image from power quest, it doesn't seem to
> be as easy as drive image was when it was owned by powerquest.
>
> --
> Indera
> * * * * * * * * * *
> Don't just live life.
> Live life well.

Thank you for the input I am going to buy True Image this week-end and give
it a try.
Foxhole





>
>
> "Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:73B1B840-3032-4BF8-B64C-F09BF69C57D0@microsoft.com...
> : I have XP Home on my computer and am useing XP's backup program and system
> : restore to keep out of trouble but after reading alot of post on this
> : newsgroup I have decided I need a better way to back up my OS.
> : I would like to know which is the best and easiest to use Acronis True
> Image
> : or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?
> : Any useful comments would be welcome.
> : Foxhole
>
>
>
August 4, 2005 8:51:51 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

You can download a full working copy to try out from www.acronis.com if you
want to test it out!

Rich


"Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:E9ACD442-3EED-46E9-96DF-3A1B516D1E22@microsoft.com...
>
>
> "Dr. Indera" wrote:
>
>> True Image is easy to use and to restore a hard drive.
>> Even though symantec bought drive image from power quest, it doesn't seem
>> to
>> be as easy as drive image was when it was owned by powerquest.
>>
>> --
>> Indera
>> * * * * * * * * * *
>> Don't just live life.
>> Live life well.
>
> Thank you for the input I am going to buy True Image this week-end and
> give
> it a try.
> Foxhole
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> "Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:73B1B840-3032-4BF8-B64C-F09BF69C57D0@microsoft.com...
>> : I have XP Home on my computer and am useing XP's backup program and
>> system
>> : restore to keep out of trouble but after reading alot of post on this
>> : newsgroup I have decided I need a better way to back up my OS.
>> : I would like to know which is the best and easiest to use Acronis True
>> Image
>> : or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?
>> : Any useful comments would be welcome.
>> : Foxhole
>>
>>
>>
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 8:51:52 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

"Rich" wrote:

> You can download a full working copy to try out from www.acronis.com if you
> want to test it out!
>
> Rich

Thanks for the info.
Foxhole



>
>
> "Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:E9ACD442-3EED-46E9-96DF-3A1B516D1E22@microsoft.com...
> >
> >
> > "Dr. Indera" wrote:
> >
> >> True Image is easy to use and to restore a hard drive.
> >> Even though symantec bought drive image from power quest, it doesn't seem
> >> to
> >> be as easy as drive image was when it was owned by powerquest.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Indera
> >> * * * * * * * * * *
> >> Don't just live life.
> >> Live life well.
> >
> > Thank you for the input I am going to buy True Image this week-end and
> > give
> > it a try.
> > Foxhole
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> "Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> >> news:73B1B840-3032-4BF8-B64C-F09BF69C57D0@microsoft.com...
> >> : I have XP Home on my computer and am useing XP's backup program and
> >> system
> >> : restore to keep out of trouble but after reading alot of post on this
> >> : newsgroup I have decided I need a better way to back up my OS.
> >> : I would like to know which is the best and easiest to use Acronis True
> >> Image
> >> : or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?
> >> : Any useful comments would be welcome.
> >> : Foxhole
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 10:41:03 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

If you decide you like it, you can download it from newegg for
somewhat less than the Acronis full price -- see the link
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E1681...

mikey


"Rich" <madeyoulook@dot.com> wrote in message
news:42f28d9f$0$11291$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
> You can download a full working copy to try out from www.acronis.com if
you
> want to test it out!
>
> Rich
>
>
> "Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:E9ACD442-3EED-46E9-96DF-3A1B516D1E22@microsoft.com...
> >
> >
> > "Dr. Indera" wrote:
> >
> >> True Image is easy to use and to restore a hard drive.
> >> Even though symantec bought drive image from power quest, it doesn't
seem
> >> to
> >> be as easy as drive image was when it was owned by powerquest.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Indera
> >> * * * * * * * * * *
> >> Don't just live life.
> >> Live life well.
> >
> > Thank you for the input I am going to buy True Image this week-end and
> > give
> > it a try.
> > Foxhole
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> "Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> >> news:73B1B840-3032-4BF8-B64C-F09BF69C57D0@microsoft.com...
> >> : I have XP Home on my computer and am useing XP's backup program and
> >> system
> >> : restore to keep out of trouble but after reading alot of post on this
> >> : newsgroup I have decided I need a better way to back up my OS.
> >> : I would like to know which is the best and easiest to use Acronis
True
> >> Image
> >> : or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?
> >> : Any useful comments would be welcome.
> >> : Foxhole
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
Anonymous
August 5, 2005 10:39:04 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general (More info?)

"Mike Fields" wrote:

> If you decide you like it, you can download it from newegg for
> somewhat less than the Acronis full price -- see the link
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E1681...
>
> mikey
>

Thanks I'll check that out.
Foxhole
>
> "Rich" <madeyoulook@dot.com> wrote in message
> news:42f28d9f$0$11291$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
> > You can download a full working copy to try out from www.acronis.com if
> you
> > want to test it out!
> >
> > Rich
> >
> >
> > "Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> > news:E9ACD442-3EED-46E9-96DF-3A1B516D1E22@microsoft.com...
> > >
> > >
> > > "Dr. Indera" wrote:
> > >
> > >> True Image is easy to use and to restore a hard drive.
> > >> Even though symantec bought drive image from power quest, it doesn't
> seem
> > >> to
> > >> be as easy as drive image was when it was owned by powerquest.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Indera
> > >> * * * * * * * * * *
> > >> Don't just live life.
> > >> Live life well.
> > >
> > > Thank you for the input I am going to buy True Image this week-end and
> > > give
> > > it a try.
> > > Foxhole
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> "Foxhole" <Foxhole@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> > >> news:73B1B840-3032-4BF8-B64C-F09BF69C57D0@microsoft.com...
> > >> : I have XP Home on my computer and am useing XP's backup program and
> > >> system
> > >> : restore to keep out of trouble but after reading alot of post on this
> > >> : newsgroup I have decided I need a better way to back up my OS.
> > >> : I would like to know which is the best and easiest to use Acronis
> True
> > >> Image
> > >> : or Symantec's Norton Ghost ?
> > >> : Any useful comments would be welcome.
> > >> : Foxhole
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> >
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