[40K] Eldar thoughts (A couple more)

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I may now be hunted down and slain in the street for reviving the Never
Ending RGMW Eldar Argument, but just another couple of ideas that came to me
recently. First, a special rule for Dire Avengers:
"Strafe: In the skilled hands of a Dire Avenger, a shuriken weapon unleashes
such a weight of fire that at very close ranges it is nearly impossible to
miss. A Dire Avenger may re-roll any failed 'to-hit' dice if the target is
within half of the maximum range of their weapon."

I know I've stolen the name Strafe from one of Phil's DA Exarch powers
(sorry Phil), but I feel the name suits this special rule too well to
ignore. A rule like this gives Avengers more of an edge over Defender
Guardians, especially up close where their improved armour and statline will
help them out, and emphasises their specialist role as short ranged anti
infantry gun troops. And potentially, yes, it would apply to the Exarch if
he's equipped with a shuriken pistol or shuricannon, obviously at BS5 its
only a slight improvement but better than nothing.

Secondly, a 'new' profile for the Death Spinner:
"Death Spinner: Range 12", StrengthX, AP-, Rapid Fire
Special Rule: Monofilament - A shot from a Death Spinner always wounds its
target on a 2+, regardless of toughness. Against any target with multiple
wounds, a to wound roll of a 6 with a Death Spinner means that the target
will be killed outright if it fails its saving throw, regardless of the
number of wounds it has remaining. A Death Spinner cannot be used against
vehicles"

The sharp eyed amongst you may notice that this makes the Death Spinner into
a ranged version of the Harlequin's Kiss. Considering that in the fluff
that's pretty much what it is, why not? It also moves the Warp Spiders
towards a more dedicated role in taking down high toughness creatures, and
away from the slightly ambiguous double role against a) tough troops and b)
light vehicles (even with AP-, a Death Spinner is a reasonable choice
against AV10 or 11). I like the idea that if a Death Spinner's monofilament
wire gets through your armour, then it doesn't matter what your toughness
is. Also, as the Warp Spiders are named after the tiny creatures which
protect the craftworld's wraithbone core from daemonic intrusion, making
them into the optimal choice against big nasties such as Greater Daemons
seems to fit perfectly. As if that wasn't enough, moving the DeathSpinner to
Strength X frees up that Strength 6 AP- profile that Phil and I both thought
would be ideal for the scatter laser.

Thoughts?

Tim
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Helicon_One wrote:

-sigh-

> a special rule for Dire Avengers:
> "Strafe: In the skilled hands of a Dire Avenger, a shuriken weapon unleashes
> such a weight of fire that at very close ranges it is nearly impossible to
> miss. A Dire Avenger may re-roll any failed 'to-hit' dice if the target is
> within half of the maximum range of their weapon."

Easier: All Dire Avengers have the "Fast Shot" ability (+1 shot).

> Secondly, a 'new' profile for the Death Spinner:
> "Death Spinner: Range 12", StrengthX, AP-, Rapid Fire

I still like Shredders, which emphasize the DE / Eldar link like the
Dark / Bright Lances.

> Special Rule: Monofilament - A shot from a Death Spinner always wounds its
> target on a 2+, regardless of toughness. Against any target with multiple
> wounds, a to wound roll of a 6 with a Death Spinner means that the target
> will be killed outright if it fails its saving throw, regardless of the
> number of wounds it has remaining. A Death Spinner cannot be used against
> vehicles"

A Death Spinner rolls 2d6 for AP (like a Sniper Rifle). AP- means it
will only ever glance.

> The sharp eyed amongst you may notice that this makes the Death Spinner into
> a ranged version of the Harlequin's Kiss.

Which isn't yet official.

> As if that wasn't enough, moving the DeathSpinner to
> Strength X frees up that Strength 6 AP- profile that Phil and I both thought
> would be ideal for the scatter laser.

I don't see the need to make a distinction.

I'm happy enough with:

R36" S6 AP- A1 / Barrage Lg. Blast - Shadow Weaver
R36" S6 AP6 A4 - Scatter Laser (+5 pts)
R30" S6 AP4 A3 - Shuriken Cannon (base)
R36" S6 AP2 A3 - Starcannon (+15 pts)
R48" S6 AP1 A1 Fusion - EML (+20 pts)

[ R48" S4 AP4 A1 Blast - EML (+20 pts) ]

In the above formulation, the Eldar are only missing a S6 AP5 "Heavy"
weapon. I therefore revise the Anti-Personnel mode for the Fire Prism to:

R48" S6 AP5 A1 Lg. Blast - Prism Cannon.
R72" S8 AP3 A1 Blast - Prism Cannon
R120" S10 AP1 A1 Lance - Prism Cannon

:)

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--- John Hwang "JohnHwang...@cs.com.no.com"
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>I may now be hunted down and slain in the street for reviving the Never
>Ending RGMW Eldar Argument, but just another couple of ideas that came >to me
>recently. First, a special rule for Dire Avengers:
>"Strafe: In the skilled hands of a Dire Avenger, a shuriken weapon >unleashes such a weight of fire that at very close ranges it is nearly >impossible to miss. A Dire Avenger may re-roll any failed 'to-hit' dice if the >target is within half of the maximum range of their weapon."
>
>I know I've stolen the name Strafe from one of Phil's DA Exarch powers

And the rule, no less... I suggested this in one of my recent posts,
but I didn't include the half-range restriction - though that makes
sense to me. I like the idea of each Aspect having a specific special
rule (in addition to veteran skills) - as I imagine them Reapers have
Rangefinders, Banshees Masks, Scorpions Mandiblasters, Hawks Disengage
(or just a huge conglomerate wings rule), Spears Skilled Riders, Warp
Spiders Jump Generators ... Fire Dragons I'm not sure about, with Tank
Hunters being a veteran skill option and probably too good to give them
as standard without a fairly major points boost.

>Secondly, a 'new' profile for the Death Spinner:
>"Death Spinner: Range 12", StrengthX, AP-, Rapid Fire
>Special Rule: Monofilament - A shot from a Death Spinner always wounds >its
>target on a 2+, regardless of toughness. Against any target with multiple
>wounds, a to wound roll of a 6 with a Death Spinner means that the target
>will be killed outright if it fails its saving throw, regardless of the
>number of wounds it has remaining. A Death Spinner cannot be used >against
>vehicles"
>
>The sharp eyed amongst you may notice that this makes the Death >Spinner into
>a ranged version of the Harlequin's Kiss. Considering that in the fluff
>that's pretty much what it is, why not?

Well, bear in mind that the spinner/shredder came first - the Kiss was
intended to incorporate the equivalent effect to an S6 weapon (which
wounds on 2+ and causes instant death to T3) in a close combat
armament, not to act as a template for web weapons, which already had
their S6 profile. What I would quite like is for the Exarch to get a
Harlequin's Kiss close combat option (I've called it the Spider's Fangs
in the past). As for the spinner its S value is more or less sacrosanct
since it has to remain consistent with the DE shredder, and in any case
I'm unhappy about introducing new special rules that, in nearly all
circumstances, merely mimic an effect that an S6 profile already
provides. A minor special rule to the effect that any 6 to wound =
instant death with a failed save in addition to its current profile
would be workable, though (but I'd still rather have pinning).

> It also moves the Warp Spiders
>towards a more dedicated role in taking down high toughness creatures, and
>away from the slightly ambiguous double role against a) tough troops and b)
>light vehicles (even with AP-, a Death Spinner is a reasonable choice
>against AV10 or 11). I like the idea that if a Death Spinner's monofilament
>wire gets through your armour, then it doesn't matter what your toughness
>is. Also, as the Warp Spiders are named after the tiny creatures which
>protect the craftworld's wraithbone core from daemonic intrusion, making
>them into the optimal choice against big nasties such as Greater Daemons
>seems to fit perfectly.

Hmm. Striking Scorpions are named for an animal that spends most of its
time sitting in one place and which only ever attacks if the odds are
heavily stacked in its favour. Fire Dragons are named after a monster
that can fly... It's possible to take these associations too far - the
pertinent point from that comparison was always that the Spiders excel
at 'aggressive defence', and as a defensive front line they should have
the versatility to take on pretty much all comers. I like their role as
they are, and I'd like to see them become more disruptive rather than
more destructive (i.e. pinning). Though keeping S6 and giving them a '6
to wound = instant death' rule makes them pretty capable of taking on
big monsters, especially if other weapons in the army are reduced to S5
or less (and I would like the deathspinner to be the only S6 Aspect
weapon precisely because it should be the best at wounding).

As if that wasn't enough, moving the DeathSpinner to
>Strength X frees up that Strength 6 AP- profile that Phil and I both thought
>would be ideal for the scatter laser.

I've actually grown quite partial to making the scatter laser S5 AP6 -
that makes it less useful against vehicles than S6 AP- while making it
just as effective against light infantry other than Orks.

>Thoughts?

I like your version of Strafe and I'm happy to keep that (and I too am
attached to the name - my idea of the ability changes from time to
time, but the name doesn't). As for the death spinner, my suggestion
would be a compromise:

R S AP Type Special
12" 6 - Rapid fire 6 to wound = instant death if
save failed.

I'm sure there's a way to bring back pinning as well somehow...

Philip Bowles
 
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"John Hwang" <JohnHwangCSI@cs.com.no.com> wrote in message
news:8XLXe.16907$zG1.9457@trnddc05...
> Helicon_One wrote:

> -sigh-

Yeah yeah, I know. Just be thankful I didn't start up about the shuricat
profile again.... :)

>> a special rule for Dire Avengers:
>> "Strafe: In the skilled hands of a Dire Avenger, a shuriken weapon
>> unleashes such a weight of fire that at very close ranges it is nearly
>> impossible to miss. A Dire Avenger may re-roll any failed 'to-hit' dice
>> if the target is within half of the maximum range of their weapon."
>
> Easier: All Dire Avengers have the "Fast Shot" ability (+1 shot).

Giving an established Exarch Power to the entire squad is something of a
radical step though, unless you're changing or getting rid of Fast Shot as
an Exarch power.

>> Secondly, a 'new' profile for the Death Spinner:
>> "Death Spinner: Range 12", StrengthX, AP-, Rapid Fire
>
> I still like Shredders, which emphasize the DE / Eldar link like the Dark
> / Bright Lances.

What does the Shredder do, in fluff terms?

>> Special Rule: Monofilament - A shot from a Death Spinner always wounds
>> its target on a 2+, regardless of toughness. Against any target with
>> multiple wounds, a to wound roll of a 6 with a Death Spinner means that
>> the target will be killed outright if it fails its saving throw,
>> regardless of the number of wounds it has remaining. A Death Spinner
>> cannot be used against vehicles"
>
> A Death Spinner rolls 2d6 for AP (like a Sniper Rifle). AP- means it will
> only ever glance.

That might work too, but I deliberately copied the Monofilament rules direct
from the Harlequin's Kiss to emphasise the link.

>> The sharp eyed amongst you may notice that this makes the Death Spinner
>> into a ranged version of the Harlequin's Kiss.
>
> Which isn't yet official.

True, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the HK profile unchanged if and
when it does. As its one of the parts of the Harly list which actually works
ok.

>> As if that wasn't enough, moving the DeathSpinner to Strength X frees up
>> that Strength 6 AP- profile that Phil and I both thought would be ideal
>> for the scatter laser.
>
> I don't see the need to make a distinction.

Just keeps things neater if you don't have profiles being repeated.

Tim
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<pbowles@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1127216756.682912.157140@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>>"Strafe: In the skilled hands of a Dire Avenger, a shuriken weapon
>>unleashes such a weight of fire that at very close ranges it is nearly
>>impossible to miss. A Dire Avenger may re-roll any failed 'to-hit'
>>dice if the target is within half of the maximum range of their
>>weapon."
>>
>>I know I've stolen the name Strafe from one of Phil's DA Exarch powers
>
> And the rule, no less... I suggested this in one of my recent posts,

Apologies, I must not have spotted it.

Actually, I stole the rule from the Celestian entry in my attempt at writing
a homebrew Sisters of Battle codex a few years ago, so you can't claim
credit for that one :)

> but I didn't include the half-range restriction - though that makes
> sense to me. I like the idea of each Aspect having a specific special
> rule (in addition to veteran skills) - as I imagine them Reapers have
> Rangefinders, Banshees Masks, Scorpions Mandiblasters, Hawks Disengage
> (or just a huge conglomerate wings rule)

Well, Hawks already have a special rule for their grenade packs, although
Disengage wouldn't be unreasonable as well.

Another thought: AP4, pinning and ignore cover for the grenade packs? That
ties it to the plasma missile, and gives the grenade attack a little more
bite.

>, Spears Skilled Riders, Warp
> Spiders Jump Generators ... Fire Dragons I'm not sure about, with Tank
> Hunters being a veteran skill option and probably too good to give them
> as standard without a fairly major points boost.

Hmm, all of your other listed special rules above are granted by equipment
rather than a pure ability (Skilled Riders more loosely so, but its hard to
be a skilled rider without something to ride...) so it would be fitting for
Fire Dragons to follow the pattern. Admittedly, it would mean Dire Avengers
would need something new too .... but the idea of each Aspect having their
own special ability-granting item of wargear could be interesting.

As you mentioned Tank Hunters, do you think its that big a deal for Fire
Dragons? With Fusion granting them 2d6 against vehicles at full range
anyway, they've a pretty decent chance of killing whatever gets in their way
without the +1 making as big a difference as it would for other troops. Its
worth +2ppm, maybe, but its not as radical an improvement as it would be for
a Devastator-type squad.

>>Secondly, a 'new' profile for the Death Spinner:
>>"Death Spinner: Range 12", StrengthX, AP-, Rapid Fire
>>Special Rule: Monofilament - A shot from a Death Spinner always wounds
>> >its
>>target on a 2+, regardless of toughness. Against any target with multiple
>>wounds, a to wound roll of a 6 with a Death Spinner means that the target
>>will be killed outright if it fails its saving throw, regardless of the
>>number of wounds it has remaining. A Death Spinner cannot be used >against
>>vehicles"
>>
>>The sharp eyed amongst you may notice that this makes the Death >Spinner
>>into
>>a ranged version of the Harlequin's Kiss. Considering that in the fluff
>>that's pretty much what it is, why not?
>
> Well, bear in mind that the spinner/shredder came first - the Kiss was
> intended to incorporate the equivalent effect to an S6 weapon (which
> wounds on 2+ and causes instant death to T3) in a close combat
> armament, not to act as a template for web weapons, which already had
> their S6 profile.

If the Shredder is a monofilament type weapon in the fluff, then you and
John are right here, I didn't have the DE codex to check up on this though.

> What I would quite like is for the Exarch to get a
> Harlequin's Kiss close combat option (I've called it the Spider's Fangs
> in the past).

Hmm, that could work, presumably you mean as an alternative to the
powerblades?

> Though keeping S6 and giving them a '6
> to wound = instant death' rule makes them pretty capable of taking on
> big monsters, especially if other weapons in the army are reduced to S5
> or less (and I would like the deathspinner to be the only S6 Aspect
> weapon precisely because it should be the best at wounding).

If the Wraithcannon becomes Rending instead of having the '6 to wound =
instant death' rule (which would be nearly redundant on a S10 weapon), then
shuffling the rule over to the Spiders... yeah, that works.

>> As if that wasn't enough, moving the DeathSpinner to
>>Strength X frees up that Strength 6 AP- profile that Phil and I both
>>thought
>>would be ideal for the scatter laser.
>
> I've actually grown quite partial to making the scatter laser S5 AP6 -
> that makes it less useful against vehicles than S6 AP- while making it
> just as effective against light infantry other than Orks.

Probably marginally better against AV10 because of the possibility of
penetrating, but that's no big deal, the Eldar list isn't exactly short of
AV10 killing weapons, and nor should it be. S5 AP6 is fine, you're right.

> R S AP Type Special
> 12" 6 - Rapid fire 6 to wound = instant death if
> save failed.
>
> I'm sure there's a way to bring back pinning as well somehow...

Yeah, just give it pinning :). That fits, 2 shots each at BS4 and S6 should
produce one casualty or more so it'll be a pinning test virtually every time
they shoot something. Which is nasty, but not unrealisticly so.

Tim
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Helicon_One wrote on Tue, 20 Sep 2005 20:41:31 +0000 (UTC):

>> What I would quite like is for the Exarch to get a
>> Harlequin's Kiss close combat option (I've called it the Spider's Fangs
>> in the past).
>
> Hmm, that could work, presumably you mean as an alternative to the
> powerblades?

No, give them both at the same time, so all the forums will be flooded with
"Can I combine the HK/Fang/Whatever with Powerblades?" posts!

:p

Dan
 
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Helicon_One wrote:
> "John Hwang" <JohnHwangCSI@cs.com.no.com> wrote ...

>>>a special rule for Dire Avengers:

>>Easier: All Dire Avengers have the "Fast Shot" ability (+1 shot).
>
> Giving an established Exarch Power to the entire squad is something
> of a radical step though, unless you're changing or getting rid of
> Fast Shot as an Exarch power.

If the overlap bothers you, then just let them re-roll misses. 9
Avengers would normally hit 12/18. With re-rolls, they'd hit 16/18,
which is very nearly as good as hitting 18/27.

>>I still like Shredders, which emphasize the DE / Eldar link like the Dark
>>/ Bright Lances.
>
> What does the Shredder do, in fluff terms?

"The Shredder unleashes a web or mesh of monofilament wire, often with
miniscule barbs or serrations along its lines. This mesh entangles the
victim, slicing them to pieces as they struggle. Its dense could is
also highly effective at finding weak points in a vehicle's armour, but
is thankfully short ranted." [C:DE v1, p.35]

If you look at the picture, it has the same dual-horned nose as the
Death Spinner.

Shredder R12" S6 AP- A1 Blast.

Considering how much larger the Death Spinner is, one could reasonably
argue project the Death Spinner as high as R18" S6 AP6 A1 Blast.

> True, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the HK profile unchanged
> if and when it does.

Note that "wounds on a 2+" is the same as S6 for T4 or lower, which
covers the vast majority of 40k opponents.

> As its one of the parts of the Harly list
> which actually works ok.

.... when combo'd with Power Blades.

>>>As if that wasn't enough, moving the DeathSpinner to Strength X
>>>frees up that Strength 6 AP- profile that Phil and I both thought
>>> would be ideal for the scatter laser.
>>
>>I don't see the need to make a distinction.
>
> Just keeps things neater if you don't have profiles being repeated.

Variety for variety's sake? I suppose.

--
--- John Hwang "JohnHwang...@cs.com.no.com"
\-|-/
| A.K.D. F.E.M.C.
| Horned Blood Cross Terror LED Speed Jagd Destiny