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China pushes homegrown chip

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December 24, 2002 10:35:36 PM

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December 24, 2002 11:20:49 PM

lol,,, i wont be buying on of those they prob have some kind of explosive in them so when they sell enough to the american people they just press a switch,,,,,,lol just kidding.

I CANT TAKE IT ANYMORE,,<--- comes out of the closet screaming i am an AMD bieocth fan boy..
December 25, 2002 12:03:20 AM

Actually I think it is potentially a pretty big step. You have to figure for the most part the Chinese will be very happy to avoid dependence on US microprocessors for sensitive military applications (which rarely need ultra high speed chips anyway).

Ongoing they may well have the brains to go good places, but for our concepts they'd need software for commercial applications and hence have to license or 'borrow' US technology (i.e. instruction sets) to run the available software.

Overall, if you look at the Chinese situation, we might laugh that they cannot produce 3Ghz microprocessors, but the demand really isn't there yet. At best, figure the extent of typical use would be office automation, records and administrative (keeping track of 1Bn people can lead to a lot of paperwork).

These chips and future generations will do that admirably, and they don't need to lean on anyone to get it. They can follow 5 years behind the West for virtually free, borrowing technology and processes that we consider obsolete. Pretty soon, when they need to they'll have learned all they need to keep up with the West, if and when their own economy needs or can afford it.

Sure, it probably isn't a huge threat to Intel or AMD tomorrow, but in 10 years or so it could be a biggie. Looking at the trend, if they follow behing Intel by 5 years then in 10 years they'll be making chips we cannot even dream about today. We cannot really use everything we have today either (other than research and military modelling) so who will care if it a US 45Ghz Terillium optial composite processor or a 15Ghz Pentium 7 HyperMegathread clone?

Okay, I exaggerate, but the concept is there.

-* <font color=red> !! S O L D !! </font color=red> *-
To the gentleman in the pink Tutu
Related resources
December 25, 2002 4:46:56 AM

Processor good! You buy now! Two hundred dolla good price! Me give you free egg roll!

"We are Microsoft, resistance is futile." - Bill Gates, 2015.
December 25, 2002 3:59:45 PM

China might not be a huge market yet, but if only 1% of the chinese have a computer within a couple of years then we're talking 12 million chips. I don't think it's impossible that more than 200 milion chips will be needed within a decade. 233 MhZ to start of with will be quite adequate - especially since they probably will be meant for office use. I remember I read i couple of month ago in theregister that China wants to meke their own office applications and if they also go for own OS it should be at least interesting. Our big chips are really only for unreal, jediknight or for running XP. But apart from a few applications I'm guessing that gaming is not the chinese leaders biggest concern.
Any office application can be run without problems on a 233 mhz if just designed for it. Remember how good WordPerfect for DOS ran on a 25mhz, and ordersystems and financialsystems don't need a lot of processing power if run on e.g. something like BeOS 3. It might not be as good looking, but it works and it works good.
I agree, this could be big!
December 25, 2002 6:19:21 PM

Cool. I agree it's a big step. Another player isn't bad at all, and as stated, if people in China start buying em, it can be huge.

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
- Mario Andretti
December 25, 2002 9:22:26 PM

A couple of notes on this topic:

<i>...military applications (which rarely need ultra high speed chips anyway).</i>
[...edited...]: check out LLNL's and Los Alamos National Labs' supercomputers, that are among the biggest clusters in the world (according to Forbes) to see that military applications indeed require comp.-power.

<i>Any office application can be run without problems on a 233 mhz if just designed for it. Remember how good WordPerfect for DOS ran on a 25mhz</i>
Aye! I do remember that. Apparently, or so I hear, real hardcore secretaries don't use Windows and Word at all, as the software can't keep up with them: they use an old DOS system with exactly that: WordPerfect. (I think this is a true story...).

I also had a look at my friend's PocketPC the other day, running Windows CE on a 200MHz RISC processor: it was smoking fast! Word, Excel, web-browsing: it was all way faster than desktop computers running WinXP. Why can't Micrsoft just de-bloat their desktop apps a little...

:lol:  <b><font color=blue>gnintsakgnirkskir ksron</font color=blue></b> :lol:  <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by digikid on 12/25/02 03:34 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
December 25, 2002 9:30:21 PM

Quote:
...military applications (which rarely need ultra high speed chips anyway).
Where's your intelligence on this? That's truly a dumb statement: check out LLNL's and Los Alamos National Labs' supercomputers, that are among the biggest clusters in the world (according to Forbes) to see that military applications indeed require comp.-power


Um, did you hit enter without passing brain? Yes, granted the nuclear modelling and simulations require huge processing capability - but don't you think that is rather limited in scope? Military applications can be many and far-reaching. You may recall reading articles about NASA having to scour E-Bay to find 8086 components since that is what the Space Shuttle <i>still</i> uses. Missile guidance, torpedo guidance, avionics, communications devices etc. all need reliable but not extravagent processing. I'm sure there are a thousand military applications that woud benefit.

As for your modelling and Los Alamos point, if they really wanted to they could just cluster and MPP - sure they'd need 10x the number of machines but I'm sure that wouldn't hold them back.

So anyway, before you call someone "truly dumb" try and expand your horizons past your playpen and see what the real world does with itself.

-* <font color=red> !! S O L D !! </font color=red> *-
To the gentleman in the pink Tutu
December 25, 2002 9:38:07 PM

:smile: ok, sorry about the harsh statement (sheepishly edited in that post). And, you're right about "hi-tech" systems still using old technology (hard to keep all systems up-to-date, especially when they're this special). The "cluster and MPP", you mean the Chinese or Los Alamos? 'Cause I think that most top computers these days are clusters, right?


:lol:  <b><font color=blue>gnintsakgnirkskir ksron</font color=blue></b> :lol: 
December 25, 2002 9:44:08 PM

Yep, a lot are clusters and there is Massively Paralell Processing. Easier for the Chinese if they can manufature everything in-house and not have to use export dollars (hard currency) to buy the stuff they need. Besides, most of the good hardware probably couldn't be sold to them anyway.

Cray still do a good line in large, non clustered machines.

-* <font color=red> !! S O L D !! </font color=red> *-
To the gentleman in the pink Tutu
December 25, 2002 10:19:52 PM

And they can only get better at it. If the desire and money is there eventually they may catch up to the west.

<b><font color=purple>[Rik_]</font color=purple> I wonder how many people have made their own phasechange system?
<font color=blue>[LHGPooBaa]</font color=blue> I get phasechange whenever i eat a hot chillie :lol:  </b>
December 26, 2002 5:04:04 AM

The thought that really scares me is that if they do finally catch us, and our current trade deficit does not change, then potentially...

1) We will have another big competitor with AMD and Intel

2) This will take more jobs away from the U.S.

3) The trade deficit grows even more.

I say this because I am looking back at the trend (See what has happened with T.V.'s, VCR's, clock-radios, and the million other electronic devices we commonly use...)

I, personally do not like the looks of what could happen...so, yes, this is BIG.



Quick!!! Whats the number for 911?
December 26, 2002 8:11:06 AM

I wonder if it's color would be Red??? LOL

Signature, I'm still learning & having fun doing it!!!!!!
December 26, 2002 1:45:51 PM

I think this is a good start for the Chinese.
History tells us that Americans laughed when the Japanese began making cars and electronics back in the 50's and 60's...and 20 years later the whole world was driving Japanese cars and using Japanese TVs.


__________________________________________________
It's not important to know all the answers, as long as you know how to contact someone who does.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by gaviota on 12/26/02 10:47 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
December 26, 2002 3:07:28 PM

They finally dissected (stole) the process we used to make Pentium Pro processors! Crap!!! The Chinese are no longer the innovative civilization that they used to be. If anyone has looked at recent history, 90% of China's technology is directly stolen from the West. It's sad, but true. Now onlyl if they were democratic... dang...
December 26, 2002 3:40:32 PM

Does that mean they will soon be sued by Intergraph, since they own certain patents used in the Pentium Pro?

Dichromatic for your viewing plesure...
December 26, 2002 5:27:06 PM

I can actually agree with that statement. Look at China's army. They DIRECTLY copied their tank designs for the Type 90 tanks, as well as the Type 80 tanks from the Russian designs for the T-90 and T-80. Also, the only innovations they really have for their aircraft are the J-7 fighters, which are really only a mediocre version of an interceptor. Other than that, all of their designs for aircraft are basically stolen.

Even their infantry use copied weapons, in the AK-47.

In all this, in every instance I have just described, the quality of these items has been questioned, and rightfully so.

Even now, we question the quality of these new chips that are coming out over there. What happens when the WORLD'S LARGEST ECONOMY finally figures out how to make quality products? (See Japan, early 1980's automobile production)

I know, I sound like a doomsayer, but I guess I am trying to look into the future with my eyes wide open....

If they were democratic, they would be banned from the WTO, for all the trade infractions that they are incurring...but since the rest of the world is trying to get human rights for the chinese people, we must live with these infractions.



Quick!!! Whats the number for 911?
a b à CPUs
December 26, 2002 7:57:53 PM

This is very BAD news. You see, the U.S. trade deficit with China is HUGE. Anything they do to reduce dependance on us will eventually lead to a decline in our economy. And such a decline would lead people to spend less money, causing a further decline. Eventually we can only afford Chinese goods, then our economy completely collapses. And when they loose their largest customer following our collapse, theirs will follow. The combination of these two economic collapses will cause a worldwide economic depression. Even remote villages in Africa will be affected as foreign aid dries up. The only result I can see from this is World War III, and the apocolypse.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
December 26, 2002 8:15:23 PM

LOL talk about chain reaction. It started logically, until you got with the African aids and the apocalypse, all for a little group of enthusiasts who tried to make their own chip.

--
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December 26, 2002 8:30:55 PM

Name one Chinese (not Taiwan) product that is both high tech and leading. You can't do it. I work with Chinese companies. If you mostly steal technologies you can not lead. There may be a time when the Chinese are producing cutting edge high tech products, but it won't be anytime soon. They may be able to compete on the low tech end of things in time but what business outside of China would buy a 233 MHz machine? They have a long road ahead of them. Maybe if their government would get out of the way and let the creativity of these people get to work....

<font color=red>The solution may be obvious, but I can't see it for the smoke coming off my processor.</font color=red>
December 26, 2002 9:11:34 PM

Fully 3/4 or more of the world's population are in a position where they are going to be buying the cheapest they can get. Lot's look at South America, India, China, Africa and most of South East Asia.

They are all areas with very poor technology penetration. When they are thinking about infrastructure (because sure as hech the average person is not thinking about a home PC) what do they use? There is a huge market for old (obsolete) phone exchanges from companies in the West to use as public infrastructure equipment in some of the countries/regions mentioned. The neither need, can affor nor maintain the latest stuff - but the market for the older stuff is huge.

So, whilst the West runs off and builds the latest and greatest of everything, China spins up a shadow technology businesses building new and replacement parts for a generation of technology from 10 years back. 'Suddenly' 3/4 of the world become dependent on China, not the US or Japan, for technology we all threw out with the garbage.

Sounds far fetched? Stranger things have happenend. The majority World market does not need anything better than these chips right now probably because they would have nothing to do no them. A bit of word processing, simple databases etc. some automation and control circuits. They don't have to be optimised or particularly fast. Put them up against a Western counterpart where you need 10 different chips to do specific things in each case vs. a cheap generic one and guess which way the market goes?

Let's all go to the pub and get pissed, but get used to rice wine, because in 20 years that's all we'll be drinking. :o )

-* <font color=red> !! S O L D !! </font color=red> *-
To the gentleman in the pink Tutu
December 26, 2002 9:42:48 PM

I am responding to rubberbband

"They'll be a major player on the global market in a few years. give them time...and they'll catch up and maybee even surpass Intel."

They will need a heck of a lot of time to do what he is saying. They will also have to move from stealing technology to developing it.

What you are supposing is much more plausible. But what do these buyers you reference do now? Seriously. The areas you mention do not have much if any demand for PCs at home. Industry in these areas can only operate so far behind the curve as the economy becomes more and more global. If I am a Chinese company and I want to do business with the west (that is who is supporting the Chinese economy). I have to be able to interact with the western standards for software.


<font color=red>The solution may be obvious, but I can't see it for the smoke coming off my processor.</font color=red>
a b à CPUs
December 26, 2002 10:14:39 PM

LOL, that last part, well, when the economy is really bad, foreign aid for all sorts of projects dries up. So I was just stating that everybody would be affected, even if they don't seem to have any direct connection to the problem.

Truely terrible financial times for a group of countries usually leads to war.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
December 26, 2002 11:31:06 PM

Paul,

There is a certain issue that may or may not be implausible.

Currently a lot of the areas I describe do not have any automation or technology - those areas that do are frequently dependent on 2nd hand Western junk. I remember at an old firm I worked for, we were upgrading our PBX (phone exchange) and we were offered good money (much better than Nortel or British Telecom were offering) to buy it off us. This company specialised ONLY in refurbishing old UK phone systems and selling them in India and Africa as public telephone systems.

So, there is still huge market in under-developed countires (China included) to bring technology in. Now, if the US sells one option, and China can build and maintain an option 1/50th of the cost (because there is no need or interest for US firms to deal or produce the limited technology needed) then China will get huge market share.

Now, they won't make the capital revenue of a US firm, but the market share and experience gives them influence and leverage over the market and ultimately government (especially if they are providing core infrastructure).

This also applies to so many other areas. So far China has been the shop floor for the rest of the world - I wouldn't like to speculate what percentage of the worlds goods are now manufactured in China, but it must be very significant.

Expand this from simple retail goods such as radios, toys and clothes up to real industrial equipment - it is merely the same leap of manufacturing and production that other industrial nations took. Already the developed Asian nations (Japan, Korea, Hong Kong etc.) now do increasingly more manufacturing in mainland China because the cost of production (basically the standards of living) are so much lower it is uneconomic to do it anywhere else.

So what happens when a country as large and directed as China does to Japan, Korea and US what Japan did to the US all those years back? The joke used to be that in the 80s everything had a "Made In Japan" sticker... Well, guess what, now it is a "Made In China" sticker, and it is evolving from rubber dog-turds and souvenier hats to televisions, VCRs, stereos and computers. What happens when the first Japanese or Korean vehicle production line opens up in China? What then when the big autofrieghters are pulling into San Francisco not from Yokohama or Busan but from Shanghai??

It only takes baby steps to get to the end of the bridge, but once there, they cannot be taken back.

-* <font color=red> !! S O L D !! </font color=red> *-
To the gentleman in the pink Tutu
December 27, 2002 12:25:05 AM

I detect some racism in this thread. Everybody has to start somewhere. This is a big step for China to create its own cpu and become less dependant on imports.

Regarding the bit about China "stealing" technology, why don't you look at it as importing new ideas. The US does it too.

The standard pistol for the US Army and Marines is the Beretta 92. This pistol is Italian.

The standard submachine gun for the US Navy and the US Marines is the HK MP5. This gun is German.

The 1.44 floppy disk drive, something that is in 90% of today's computers, was invented by Sony, Japanese.

I could go on and on but I think this proves my point.
December 27, 2002 2:56:44 AM

i don't detect racism
and while all countries borrow from each other, i do believe it's true that china borrows more than it gives ;) 
this past semester at school i was helping chinese graduate students with their english, so we talked a lot about china, and one of the things that came up was this: almost all cars in china are chinese, but none of them are reliable or high quality at all.
the chinese are not leaders in technology, and while they have a big market to sell to, i don't think that them making slow processors going to lead to the decline of civilization as we know it
sure we import a lot more of their stuff than they import of ours (the united states', and the rest of the world's presumably)
but before any huge catastrophic events happen (see: the world's economies all crash because the labor in china is so much cheaper, AND all labor in every market is doable by unskilled workers), governments will surely implement large tarifs on exports and imports to/from china, keeping the labor internal
we're not there yet though...and we never will be
this is not a big thing, china will just have processors that are 5 years behind the rest of the world, and that's it
no big competition for Intel or AMD, and if china DOES intend to take over the world's processor market, i can't imagine western governments (particularly the US with its World Policeman ways) not putting lots of money (hence the best scientists) behind intel and amd, keeping the situation "under control"
it's gonna be all right!

--------------

<A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/modules.php?name=Forums&..." target="_new">mubla otohp eht ni ecaf ruoy teg</A>
December 27, 2002 3:42:17 AM

Not racism....I call it country-ism....

For those of you that say that China will ALWAYS copy western technology, I say that you might wanna take a nice look at how many chinese students come to the U.S. and then go back to China. Many of you may believe that they aren't as smart as us, but I am here to say that they are, but that they are repressed as people, so are unable to express ideas as freely as we do.

Its only a matter of time before some of these students start their own innovations, and start catching up with the west..

You must never underestimate the competition. It will always lead to your downfall. (See Sun Tsu...The Art of War)



Quick!!! Whats the number for 911?
December 27, 2002 3:55:46 AM

Ok, maybe racism is to harsh of a word. But there are definitly some stereotypical views here.

"Processor good! You buy now! Two hundred dolla good price! Me give you free egg roll!"
"I wonder if it's color would be Red??? LOL"
"They finally dissected (stole) the process we used to make Pentium Pro processors! Crap!!! "
"If they were democratic, they would be banned from the WTO, for all the trade infractions that they are incurring...but since the rest of the world is trying to get human rights for the chinese people, we must live with these infractions."
"Name one Chinese (not Taiwan) product that is both high tech and leading. You can't do it."

The last statement I listed is idiotic. The last time I checked, Taiwan is part of China and most of its citizens are chinese. Just because its not part of the mainland, doesn't make it not chinese. It would be like saying Hawaii is not part of the United States.

" do believe it's true that china borrows more than it gives"

You should say China gets shown more than it shows. Many companies around the world, such as Nike, Sony, Adidas, Panasonic, Sharp, etc., CHOOSE to have their manufaturing plants in China. Yes its because China's working condition laws are minimal, but the trade-off is cheap labor. Do I approve of this?, NO I do not. In fact I hate Nike for doing this. They are making something like 1000% profit every pair of sneaker they sell. If you told Nike to move its companies back to the US, Nike would have to pay more, thus driving up the prices on the consumer end, which most consumers wouldn't like. I think that if you move a foreign product in any country, that country is bound to try to create its own "better" version for competition reasons.
December 27, 2002 4:01:32 AM

Um - I think you'll find the subtle difference in your items of comparison is that the items are either purchased from the manufacturer or locally made under license.

I feel quite happy to say that China (as does Japan and many Asian countries) does not view patents and copyrights with the same view that the owners do. Microsoft recently decided not to chase license infringement in China in favour of market penetration for example.

Any trip around Shanghai or Hong Kong (not just China of course, but as the current subject) will show you the blatent and huge infractions of intellectual property in both entertainment and software for example.

-* <font color=red> !! S O L D !! </font color=red> *-
To the gentleman in the pink Tutu
December 27, 2002 8:54:52 AM

Dear LancerEvolution7
I am a Taiwanese.
How did you get the above information? From website of China government? (Then, of course they said so)
But I gotta say, I don't agree with you. And most people live in Taiwan won't, either.
Point is how U difine a country or a race? By people's color, what language they use ,or the cultural origin?
Yes, no matter which term you look into, we are connected with mainland China closely.
No one can deny that. It has its historical reason.
But that doesn't mean that we have to be a nation surely. 200 more years ago, people immigrated from Great British or anywhere in Europe to America won't call themselves as English just because they were all Caucasian and spoke English. Now, you are all American (proudly, right?) .
Moreover, if by this standard, Singapore should never be independent cuz more than 70% of population are actually chinese and speak mandarin (or other dialects stem from it). Then, did China have a excusable reason to take it over from Malaysia? Nowadays, the fact they use English as their official language was manipulated purposefully.
Truth is we are a democratic political substantial with a well-developed constitution and organized government which ensure people in Taiwan have right of freedom, that is the major difference distincts us from mainland China.
The dilemma we have today is embarrassing, for we claime mainland a inseparable part of Republic of China (namely, Taiwan) over past 50 more years under the background of complex historical and political upheaval.
Now with a gun against head, we have to stick to it. Yeah...not from bottom of heart...who knows what will happen if
we don't follow the big guy's order?
And we have paid for it. Every year we spend 15% of national budget on military defense begging you guys selling some outdated weapons to us cuz the hostile threatens cross strait never end. We don't hate them. But we gotta protect ourselves. And pathetically, even when our first lady pass thru Custom of United states, she still can't escape from insult of being body-searched. We ask for no sympathy but a little bit respect.
Most people in Taiwan are decent ,hard-working and only want to make this world better.
And we only request one basic thing, i.e. we have the right to decide our future no matter to be reunited or independent from mainland. Not by mainland China or America.
Sorry for all these grumbles. No intention to evoke any controversy in this lovely place.

P.S. when I registered to Tom's forum...alas...in the country column...Taiwan is labelled with province of China...
December 27, 2002 1:22:20 PM

Have you ever been in a major city in the US? There are plenty of bootleg games, cds, brand name t-shirts, etc. It happens in all the major cities around the world. The fact that you are singling out the chinese ones doesn't make it the only places that have them.
December 27, 2002 1:33:06 PM

In a world veiw, you are part of China whether you like it or not. I am not saying by speaking chinese that you are part of China. I am saying that the World's major nations do not recognize Taiwan as a seperate country from China. Yes, I know about all the conflicts that come between the two. But whether right or wrong, Taiwan is part of China under a world view. You may or may not agree with this, but it is the truth.
December 27, 2002 2:01:47 PM

Pete,

I am responding to rubberbband

"They'll be a major player on the global market in a few years. give them time...and they'll catch up and maybee even surpass Intel."

They will need a heck of a lot of time to do what he is saying. They will also have to move from stealing technology to developing it.

What you are supposing is much more plausible (which means possible, in other words I am somewhat agreeing with you).

If these countries are currently buying old used equipment from the west (Western Europe and US) then China may not be able to sell their product for 1/50th the cost. I have no idea. I won't speak as if I know absolutely.

My main point was to rubberband that they won't surpass Intel and AMD that quickly. Things may change drastically if the government changes. The Chinese do have massive resources and potential. I have been there and deal with them in the oil and gas industry. But until there is a change in the government and the people are really freed to be creative and excel they will not realize their full potential. Japan was very different than China. Opportunity was present in Japan because of a change in the government. It is currently not there in China. Their government is still very restrictive while having made major changes over the last decade but the difference in Japan post WW2 and China are immense.

What communist country offers high tech, high quality items to the world. On the contrary, where there is more freedom, there is more creativity. I say give freedom to China and then you will see something happen.

<font color=red>The solution may be obvious, but I can't see it for the smoke coming off my processor.</font color=red>
December 27, 2002 2:55:43 PM

In 1987 IBM made a big push to exploit the soon-to-explode Chinese market because they had so few computers per person. Funny how we always assume that unpenetrated markets are ready to explode at any second.

<i>Reason the only absolute. Irrationality the only enemy. </i>
December 27, 2002 6:26:51 PM

Quote:
Processor good! You buy now! Two hundred dolla good price! Me give you free egg roll!"

Though I don't want to directly assume things, but I think imgod2u is Chinese given his user info, so I don't think he said it in a stereotypical way but rather in a make-fun of his own nation, but not in a mean way. Of course I could be wrong, but his last name reminds me quite of Western Asian nativity.

--
<A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/modules.php?name=Forums&..." target="_new">The THGC Photo Album, send your pics and see others'!</A>
December 27, 2002 6:37:44 PM

Taiwan is an independent country. It is not a part of China. It was a part of China before the communist took over. In fact the US has agreements with Taiwan to help defend it against an invasion from China. You should go grab a history book or something before you go on a rant. I am not the one who is an idiot.

<font color=red>The solution may be obvious, but I can't see it for the smoke coming off my processor.</font color=red>
December 27, 2002 6:47:19 PM

Well said sujay. LancerEvolution7 is in an intermediate stage of evolution still. He doesn't have any concept of what he is talking about.

Taiwan is an example of what the people of China can achieve. I ask you why isn't China as developed and modern as Taiwan? The answer is they have a horrible, repressive government. Wakeup LancerEvolution7.


<font color=red>The solution may be obvious, but I can't see it for the smoke coming off my processor.</font color=red>
December 28, 2002 12:19:04 AM

It issue about whether Taiwan is an independant country is still in the grey area. PRC says it isn't, the ROC says it is. However, the world as a whole views Taiwan as mearly a province of PRC. If you pick up ANY western history textbook regarding Taiwan, it will never say Taiwan is a country.
December 28, 2002 12:50:54 AM

Quote:
I feel quite happy to say that China (as does Japan and many Asian countries) does not view patents and copyrights with the same view that the owners do. Microsoft recently decided not to chase license infringement in China in favour of market penetration for example


You'll notice that I do aknowledge that China is not the only culprit - however the Asian countries are usually the only systematic and organised priating nations.

I'm not doubting that you can buy bootleg stuff anywhere, but you certainly wouldn't see in the US or most Western cities the accepted shops selling obvious knock off stuff. I'm not talking about market stalls here, but real shops openly selling pirated copies of products.

-* <font color=red> !! S O L D !! </font color=red> *-
To the gentleman in the pink Tutu
December 28, 2002 1:51:26 AM

Wrong again.

Taiwan operates entirely separate from China. They operate with a free market economy and democratic government, much like a separate country. Hmmmm. Doesn't sound like a Chinese province. You are confused because they are considered a province. Taiwan considers themselves to be the real China and the PRC considers Taiwan to be a province.

So any products that come from Taiwan can not be considered to be from the PRC which is the point of this discussion. The PRC would love to control Taiwan but they don't and that is the point isn't it.

Below is a clip from a news article. The bold text in particular is interesting. This will help you expand you limited public school education.

WASHINGTON (UPI) - President Bush today will publicly approve the sale to Taiwan of four destroyers less sophisticated than the Aegis-equipped warship it is seeking, according to government officials.

The decision comes amid heightened tensions after a Chinese fighter pilot's fatal collision with a U.S. surveillance plane and China's 11-day abduction of the 24-member crew of the U.S. plane, which Beijing refuses to return.

<b>China has repeatedly warned the United States against selling the Aegis radar system to Taiwan - an independent nation that China claims is a breakaway province - saying it will trigger an arms race in the region.</b> The U.S. says the plane incident and the arms sales are two unrelated issues.

Pentagon officials said they recommended against the sale in this year's arms package in part because Taiwan's military would be unable to absorb them - a strange claim, if Taiwan wants and thinks it can handle the sale. It could take up to two years to select and furnish a shipyard capable of housing the advanced destroyers, the Pentagon says.

Defense Department officials will meet with a delegation of Taiwanese officials at the Pentagon today to detail Bush's decision, the officials said.

Bush's advisers have recommended that future decisions on the sale of Arleigh Burke class destroyers outfitted with the Aegis system be made contingent on whether China continues its military buildup.

With a radar system that can handle between 100 and 200 targets at once, the Chinese consider the Aegis-equipped Arleigh Burke class destroyer Taiwan wants to be the very definition of "advanced weapons." The ships have very sophisticated radars and fire- control systems that can simultaneously defend against surface, air and underwater attack, while launching offensive strikes of its own.

China says that selling Aegis to Taiwan would trigger a buildup in Chinese medium- and short-range ballistic missiles to a number large enough to overwhelm the defensive capabilities of the radar system. China has already deployed between 200 and 300 such missiles across the strait from Taiwan.

And it would take eight to 10 years before the ships could be built and delivered and Taiwan trained to use them. At more than $1 billion each, the ships would take a big chunk of Taiwan's $13 billion annual defense budget.

Last year the United States ratcheted up the level of sophistication by selling Taiwan high-tech air-to-air and anti-ship missiles, as well as a Pave Paws long-range radar system - another possible future component of a theater missile defense system.

The United States' arms sale to Taiwan results in an annual, if indirect, debate with China. It was undertaken by the United States shortly after the country abandoned its diplomatic recognition of Taiwan. At that time, Congress passed the 1979 Taiwan Relations Act to signify the continuing special relationship between the United States and Taiwan, and to help the island republic protect itself from a possible Chinese attack.

In March, China announced it was bolstering its military spending by 15 percent.

The goal was to provide a balance to whatever capabilities China has without increasing Taiwan's military power, according to a 1982 agreement with China.

China sees this as an inherent contradiction: While the United States posits itself as a supporter of "One China," it provides the means for Taiwan to militarily resist such an arrangement.

When Chinese Vice Premier Qian Qichen visited Washington last month, he told Powell that the proposed deal would specifically violate the Aug. 17, 1982, joint communiqué between Beijing and Washington, an agreement his spokeswoman said was "the basis of our relationship with the United States."

The agreement commits the United States to reduce its military aid to Taiwan "qualitatively and quantitatively." More important to the Chinese, the agreement also prohibits the sale of advanced weapons.

Sources familiar with the recommendations tell United Press International that by conditioning the sale of Aegis destroyers on China's military buildup, policy makers hope to gain leverage with China to influence future military decisions, particularly missile deployment on the other side of the disputed Taiwan Straights.

The Kyodo News reported last week that Taiwan's naval commander in chief, Adm. Lee Chieh, received pledges from U.S. military officials that his fleet would receive eight advanced diesel- powered submarines to bolster the island's World War II era fleet of underwater vessels. The deal is worth between $3 and $4 billion, the report says.

<font color=red>The solution may be obvious, but I can't see it for the smoke coming off my processor.</font color=red>
December 28, 2002 2:21:49 AM

Of course they are. Especially when we are discussing computer products. One can't seriously consider products from Taiwan Chinese products.

<font color=red>The solution may be obvious, but I can't see it for the smoke coming off my processor.</font color=red>
December 28, 2002 3:26:58 AM

Tell me where I am wrong when I say the world as a whole sees Taiwan as a province of PRC? I never said they both have a common economical system, nor did I ever say they both have a common legislative system. The fact that they operate on two totally different levels does not change the world's view that ROC is a province of PRC. In your arguement against me, you totally proved my point.

"You are confused because they are considered a province."
By whom are they considered a provice by? The major western countries.

"Taiwan considers themselves to be the real China and the PRC considers Taiwan to be a province."
I never debated that ROC didn't consider themselves a country. All I said was, in a world's view, ROC is a province of PRC. If you bothered to read more carefully at what I wrote, maybe you would understand the whole point of my arguement.

The United Nations considers PRC to be the real China and ROC merely to be a province. I am NOT debating on whether Taiwan considers themselves part of ROC. If you follow that logic, anything that is made in Taiwan is a chinese product.

And yes, I do know about all the news regarding Taiwan trying to get themselves being recognized as a seperate country. You don't have to spend time copying and pasting articles from the internet.
December 28, 2002 4:05:00 AM

You are wrong because you are trying to change the subject to cover your error. The discusion is about products from China (PRC) which are different from products from Taiwan. Below is my original comment and your comment regarding my statement.

Quote:
"Name one Chinese (not Taiwan) product that is both high tech and leading. You can't do it."

The last statement I listed is idiotic. The last time I checked, Taiwan is part of China and most of its citizens are chinese. Just because its not part of the mainland, doesn't make it not chinese. It would be like saying Hawaii is not part of the United States.

You can not take products from Taiwan and say that they are a product of the PRC. That is false. The new processors being manufactured are a product of the PRC. When we are discussing products from the PRC we are not talking about products from Taiwan. They are not the same. You insinuated that I was racist or something by my statement. You are wrong.

My statement pointed out that there are no cutting edge products produced in China. Taiwan produces cutting edge products but not the PRC. You definitely have to differentiate between the two in this matter even if you hold to the "One China Policy".

Taiwan and the PRC are not the same in any way except in the idea of a "One China"

Did you read my article.

You say,
Quote:
I never debated that ROC didn't consider themselves a country. All I said was, in a world's view, ROC is a province of PRC. If you bothered to read more carefully at what I wrote, maybe you would understand the whole point of my arguement."

Who cares about the world view. We are talking about products from China (PRC). If you bothered to read my posts you would understand what I am saying. You would have to eliminate products from Taiwan as being products from China (PRC). You can't consider products from Taiwan as products from the PRC. That is stupid. We know that the reason Taiwan produces so much more high tech products than China (PRC) is not because they are a province of China. It is because they are functioning as a <b>separate country</b>. They are not oppressed as the people of China (PRC) are.

<font color=red>The solution may be obvious, but I can't see it for the smoke coming off my processor.</font color=red>
December 28, 2002 4:20:47 AM

"Name one Chinese (not Taiwan) product that is both high tech and leading. You can't do it."

1)I correct my statement about racism in another post by saying stereotypical view. And obiviosly there is some stereotypical views in your statement.

2) You said CHINESE product. Chinese is an ethnicity. You can be PRC-Chinese or ROC-Chinese. If a product is developed and produced by a Chinese, then it is a Chinese-made product.

"Who cares about the world view."
Obviously Taiwan cares about world view, or else they won't be fighting to get recognized as a seperate country. The fact that they are fuctioning as a seperate country does not mean that they are a seperate country.
December 28, 2002 4:50:28 AM

No.

Quote:
1)I correct my statement about racism in another post by saying stereotypical view. And obiviosly there is some stereotypical views in your statement.

There is nothing stereotypical about my comments. I ask again. Name one high tech product produced in China. That is the PRC. You can't do it. That makes it a fact not a stereotype.

Quote:
2) You said CHINESE product. Chinese is an ethnicity. You can be PRC-Chinese or ROC-Chinese. If a product is developed and produced by a Chinese, then it is a Chinese-made product.

NOOOOOOOOOO. Everyone else in this thread knew that I was not refering to all Chinese except you. In fact that is why I said products from China and not products from Taiwan. I was differentiating between the two because I understand that there is a difference between the two even though the people are ethnically the same.

Quote:
Obviously Taiwan cares about world view, or else they won't be fighting to get recognized as a seperate country. The fact that they are fuctioning as a seperate country does not mean that they are a seperate country.

The only way that Taiwan functions as a part of China (PRC) is in the doctrine of "One China". Taiwan has their own government, military, AND PRODUCTS.

Computer products was the topic of this thread and there is a huge difference in the computer products of Tawain and the PRC. No one can dispute this. That is the differentation that I have made all along.

You can jump and dance around the topic but in the end you attacked my statement in your ignorance. Now you want to try to split hairs over whether the UN considers Taiwan a country (all this in a computer forum).

I apologize to others who are reading this thread and have to put up with this nonsense. It is just another example of the failure of the public school.

<font color=red>The solution may be obvious, but I can't see it for the smoke coming off my processor.</font color=red>
December 28, 2002 7:45:26 AM

Chinese=someone from China
Taiwanese=someone from Taiwan.

So sayeth a wise Taiwanese friend of mine who is just "loving" this thread...LOL!!! And BOY did he rant and rave about it!!

ok...one of his better rants here....

<i> Okay, lets think about this....a Mongolian....is he Chinese? How about someone who resides in Nepal? How about Singapore? Are these people ETHNIC Chinese?

Lets define the term ethnic Chinese for the sake of this conversation. Ethnic Chinese-someone who's "roots" are based in china(PRC). Assuming that is true, lets take it a step further....I really dare you to go tell a crowd of 10,000 people in Taiwan that they are ethnic Chinese. You may have to run after that....

If you are religious, and believe in...oh, lets say the Bible for instance, then you believe that all men are descendants of Adam and Eve. Thus, our "roots" stem from Adam and Eve, not China, or France, or the U.S. Instead we are ALL ETHNIC Adamese...or ETHNIC Eve-ese....

If you are not religious, but instead, believe in Darwin's theory of evolution, then you believe that all men have their "roots" from monkeys(basically), or to go further, we are all derived from ameoba....thus making us all ETHNIC Ameoba-ese.

Thus, with either of these cases, depending on your religious beliefs, no one is chinese, no one has ANY nationality. We are all just one lump of humanity.

However, since people like to know where you hail from, people started with the ETHNIC thing, stating their RECENT roots.

And thus, if a person tells you that they are ethnic Taiwanese, then you have a general idea that they grew up in a democratic country/province, that they are familiar with the situation regarding PRC and ROC, AND you will know what their general views are, regarding this.

But, if a person tells you that they are ethnic Chinese, then you will probably find the reverse true about this person's beliefs. Thus this gives you a GOOD idea of their RECENT "roots" </i>

Deng loves telling that last part of the story.....LOL

As for me, I believe that the ROC is NOT part of the PRC...just so ya know....

However, getting back to the real subject, I still believe that there is a DIRE threat to our markets regarding these chips, and what MAY VERY WELL happen, if their economy wakes up, "Borrows" our manufacturing techniques, and then surpasses even the U.S., with their larger economy. Then what can we do??? Everything we make, they will be able to flood the market with, and undercut our prices. And with a lack of respect for intellectual rights, who is to stop them???

Ok, now I AM being a doomsayer.....



Okay, I got it apart. Now how do I put it back together again???
December 28, 2002 2:16:12 PM

This thread has been a lot of fun Groveling_Wyrm. :smile: I guess I just came unglued when I was called an idiot.

<font color=red>The solution may be obvious, but I can't see it for the smoke coming off my processor.</font color=red>
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