Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

Tualatin P3/Celeron + Opinions?

Last response: in CPUs
Share
January 1, 2003 3:06:06 AM

Okay, I'm going to do some upgrading to some low performance old systems i have lying around. One of them is my server, used for apache http serving, ftp serving, and some occasional game serving (not that much). The other two are old gaming machines that i loan to other people when i have lan parties.

Their current hardware:

<b>Server</b>
QDI BX chipset mobo, slot 1
P3 450MHz (OC to 504 @ 112 bus)
768mb PC100 sdram
some old video card that doesn't matter
30gb 7200rpm hdd


<b>Gaming box A</b>
QDI BX chipset mobo
PII 350MHz
256mb PC100 sdram
voodoo3 2000 16mb agp
13GB 7200rpm hdd

<b>Gaming box B</b>
QDI BX chipset mobo
PII 350MHz
256mb PC100 sdram
ati XPert 128 16mb agp
10gb 5400rpm HD


My original plan was to find a dual slot 1 mobo somewhere, and give the server dual 350s, put the 500mhz P3 in gaming box B, and buy a slotket and a 1.1A ghz celeron for gaming box A.

After looking for a dual slot 1 mobo online, i'm in doubt about this option.. i could only find one for $200 USD or more! I'd need a far cheaper option, i'm on a low budget here.

Now i'm thinking maybe I should just get a slotket + 1.1A ghz celeron for gaming box A, and then eventually buy the same combo for my server and gaming box B in that order, as i can afford to do so.

also with any luck, for the lan party in question, i'll be able to borrow a GF2 MX400 from a friend who replaced his with a Ti4200, put that in gaming box A and move the voodoo3 to gaming box B.


i'm wondering two things about the slotket though...
-can that BX board take a tualatin celeron? i think it's a tualatin at least, its got 256K L2 according to the store's site.
-does that celeron really suck in performance, or is it only marginally behind the P3 tualatin? because the P3 costs much more, and i dont want to spend that much.


Ideally I'd like to do the bit with getting the dual slot 1 mobo that i mentioned above. I don't know that i can find one cheap enough though!

If I can't, I think I should get the slotket and celeron for gaming box A, then later when i can afford it, upgrade the server and gaming box B to the same thing. Then possibly later, buy a cheap video card upgrade for the gaming boxes.


What does everyone think?

I'm looking for opinions on using the hardware i already have and buying new things in the most efficient configuration.

[EDIT] Note... i forgot to say. I probably have up to around $200 canadian to spend. Currently $200CDN = $127 USD. Yes, I know that's very little. That's why I need help deciding what to do.. :frown: [/EDIT]
-Col.Kiwi<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Col_Kiwi on 12/31/02 11:09 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
January 1, 2003 2:39:27 PM

On the Celeron question, yes, if it has 256k L2 then it is definitely a Tualatin chip. Two things reduce performance on this chip versus the PIII, first they run it on a 100 MHz. FSB vs. the PIII at 133 MHz. and second, the Celeron has only a 4 way set associative L2 cache organization, vs the PIII has an 8 way set assiciative L2 cache. Overall, given the price difference, the Celeron is a better buy for only a little less performance.

Whether it can go into your BX mobo with a sloket, I'm not sure, but I would read the documentation on the sloket to see if they say it will work. Obviously, your mobo BIOS won't recognize it, but it may work if you just put the FSB to 100 MHz. given that you can get the voltage down to the Tualatin level on the sloket. I've read some posts about Powerleap adapters doing this sort of thing... you just need to research it a bit.

Scout
700 Mflops in SETI!
a b à CPUs
January 1, 2003 7:49:17 PM

Unlike what the last guy said, I'll go as far as to say the Celeron Tualatin is up to 30% worse in performance than the PIII Tualatin. You give up a LOT of performance with a celeron, but the price is nice. Also, I'm not certain your boards would even support the 133MHz bus required to run a PIII Tualatin at full speed. Anyway, you can use it with the $20 Upgradeware socket, at 1.50v, as long as your board has a VRM 8.4 voltage regulator (originally specified for PIII Coppermine processors). You see, earlier VRM 8.2 boards would only operate at core voltages of 1.80v and higher, which would be likely to damabe a Tualatin processor.

My advice is to find a PIII Slot 1 Coppermine core CPU, or a Socket 370 PIII and a Slotket, and try it on your board, just to see if the lower voltages are supported. If that is successfull, you can operate the Tualatin at 1.50v-1.65v on your boards using the inexpensive Upgradeware slotkets (stock voltage for Tualatins is 1.475v, but they tolerate up to 1.70v by reputation). If you find the boards are unable to accept Coppermines at stock voltage, you'll know for certain that they can't support Tualatins on that adapter at safe voltages.

The other option if you're stuck with VRM 8.2 is the Powerleap adapter, but these are so expensive that you'd be better off to get some Athlon SDRAM boards and inexpensive Athlon CPU's.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
Related resources
Can't find your answer ? Ask !
January 1, 2003 8:17:29 PM

I think I'll be sticking to the celeron, because the main advantage i see of PIII is the 133 bus which my boards can't run. The only bios FSB options are 100, 103, 112. Also, the 1.1A celeron is $82 CDN and the 1.2 PIII (with 133 bus that i can't run) is $202 CDN. For such a low budget situation I need celeron.

How do I find out what voltage regulator my boards have?

I'd really like to use those Celeron Tualatins, but if there's no slotket that can make it work on my boards it's not much use, is it.

I'd prefer not to over volt them... but I will if i have to, if you think it's safe up to a certain level.

How do I

-Col.Kiwi
a b à CPUs
January 1, 2003 9:21:28 PM

You can look around for more information on CPU support, but basically, if your board support Coppermine CPU's, it supports the lower voltage needed for the Tualatin. So in absence of any good information, you could simply try someone elses PIII Coppermine on it and see if it works.

The upgradeware slotket will work as long as the board supports the lower voltage of Coppermine processors. Otherwise, you could still use a $$$Powerleap$$$ adapter. So there are alternatives, but they are expensive.

If the board supports Coppermines, it will support the Tualatin on the Upgradeware adapter, but at 1.50v. I already told you what I believe to be safe voltages are for the Tualatin. And there isn't a need to overvolt it beyond 1.50v as long as your board has VRM 8.4, which you'll know it has if it supports earlier Coppermine processors.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
January 2, 2003 9:09:57 AM

I would go to pentium 3 with 512 cache it is better choice then celeron with higher speed. I had p3 350Mhz with level 2 cache and it was better then celeron 660 Mhz.
January 6, 2003 6:59:13 PM

<A HREF="http://www.qdigrp.com/qdisite/eng/products/bx1.htm" target="_new">My board</A>...

Found Legend QDIs website... not quite sure how to interpret what I found there.

I downloaded the PDF manual (don't have paper manuals for mine) and found this:

"On board switching voltage regulator with VID (support 1.3V to 3.5V)".


Now, I hope I'm not just getting too excited, but to me that implies all I need is any slotket and I can run a tualatin at it's stock 1.475V! Almost seems too good to be true.


Clear this up for me? Thanks Crash.

-Col.Kiwi
a b à CPUs
January 6, 2003 7:09:05 PM

If it supports that voltage range you'll still be OK with the reasonably priced Upgradeware slotket. NO cheaper slotket will work, the Upgradeware is the only one on the market (besides the expensive Powerleap with onboard VRM) that is rewired for the Tualatin CPU. The U.S. distributor for Upgradeware is selling this slotket for $20! Get it! And overclock if you can!

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
January 6, 2003 7:16:28 PM

I just spoke on the phone with a salesperson from the local store I buy most of my parts from. Apparantly the slotket they sell is one made by Intel and he affirms it will support the 1.475 vcore the tualatin requires.

I also checked, if it doesn't work I'll be able to return it... and it costs only $20 <b>Canadian</b> (~$13 USD) which is considerably more attractive to me then ordering a more expensive Upgradeware one online <b>and</b> having to pay shipping.

Does anything smell funny about this?

-Col.Kiwi
a b à CPUs
January 6, 2003 8:55:32 PM

DO YOU HEAR THE WORDS COMMING OUT OF MY MOUTH? Slotket compatability has nothing to do with voltages. The Tualatin compatable Slotkets (Powerleap and Upgradeware) are the only ones rewired to turn off the Tualatins "do not power up" pin. Intel changed the pin definitions on a couple Tualatin adapters because they don't WANT them to be compatable with earlier boards. In fact, if you search the net, you will find several site that show how to REWIRE the Tualatin CPU AND slotket in order to make the slotket type you're considering work.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
January 6, 2003 9:21:40 PM

Quote:
DO YOU HEAR THE WORDS COMMING OUT OF MY MOUTH?

Oops. Sorry.

I just phoned the store again, talked to someone, he at first didn't seem to know what the hell I was talking about, then claimed that the slotket they sell should indeed work. I asked if he had any experience actually using it with a tualatin on an older board, and he said they have a few setups like that running there okay. I'm not sure I trust anything he said.

-Col.Kiwi
January 7, 2003 12:40:25 AM

err...

<A HREF="http://www.upgradeware.com/english/product/slot-t/slot-..." target="_new">This</A> is the slotket you were talking about from Upgradeware?

Because if it is, it says on that page "Does not support Celeron PPGA"...


I'm really not clear on which is which, PPGA and FCPGA, and FCPGA II....

What do they mean?
-Col.Kiwi
a b à CPUs
January 7, 2003 1:43:41 AM

Hehe, go ahead, try it, it's returnable, you might find a "new" slotket that's rewired for tualatin...ya, right.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
a b à CPUs
January 7, 2003 1:55:59 AM

Yes, you CANNOT use the old Celeron 300-533 PPGA processor, the one that looked like a Pentium MMX. Sorry, but if you want an adapter that supports Tualatins, you have to give up support for Mendicinos. Wait, I think the powerleap adapter might support all three generations (Mendicino, Coppermine, Tualatin). But I really don't see why you would ever NEED the option to downgrade to an early Celeron.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
January 7, 2003 12:59:31 PM

So,

Celeron PPGA = Mendicino
Celeron FCPGA = Coppermine
Celeron FCPGA2 = Tualatin
?


Just trying to get those entirely clear in my head, they never have been...

Although, I see the bottom line is that I want tualatin and I want upgradeware, so that's nice and simple :smile:

Thanks for all your help.

-Col.Kiwi
a b à CPUs
January 7, 2003 6:05:54 PM

You're fairly close to being right! Actually
PPGA=Mendicino
FC-PGA=Coppermine
FC-PGA2=Has metalic heat spreader. Originally used for Tualatins and later adapted to Coppermines, I had a PIII 1000EB with the heat spreader, and I still have the box, which says FC-PGA2 1.75v.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
January 8, 2003 2:59:54 PM

So PPGA is the first generation socket 370 architechture, FC-PGA is the second generation used with coppermine, and FC-PGA2 is the same architechture, with a heatspreader added over the CPU die, originally on tualatin then later cumine as well.

That seems to make sense.

-Col.Kiwi
a b à CPUs
January 8, 2003 9:07:53 PM

Exactly. There is nothing in these names that indicate the Tualatin has a couple different pin assignments, but it does. Most people assume FC-PGA2 means Tualatin, but they're only right 90% of the time.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
January 9, 2003 12:32:16 PM

Now I understand all that stuff about three versions of Socket 370 and compatibility issues... no wonder so many people get confused about it... what a pain. At least now I understand it :smile:

Thanks again for all your help.

-Col.Kiwi
a b à CPUs
January 9, 2003 5:15:52 PM

Yes, and here's the thing: If Intel had choosen to put the heat spreader only on Tualatins (like most people think happened), it would be straightforward.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>
!