hoserb2000
Distinguished
- Dec 27, 2002
- 203
- 0
- 18,680
the A3 needs to be on both sides to get a good seal. a VERY small amount, like 1/2 of a grain of rice. if you do it right, you will gain like 1c in teps. i think overclockers.com or sombody did somthing on the shim, if i find it, i'l post
<font color=blue>Let's see, 500 posts a day, each day, for 30 days, and I will have more posts than Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=blue>Let's see, 500 posts a day, each day, for 30 days, and I will have more posts than Crashman!</font color=blue>
1c wooa big deal! who the hell cres if its 1c different??? just get the damn hsf on there and start using the computer!
put a small amount of ac3 on dont use the shim because you add another thermal junction. get the computer up and running be happy and start gaming
I've had nothing but trouble with AMD CPUs and heatsinks. The spring clip attaching method relies on pressure (about 14 pounds of it) between the heat island of the CPU and the heatsink. The clip itself produces pressure on a spot about the size of a freckle, creating an inherrently unstable mechanical system. AMD compensates for this by supplying 4 small rubber pads on the corners of their CPUs but they are far too soft to make any real difference. One sharp jar (eg. when the system is lifted up for cleaning then roughly dropped back into place) can and often does cause the thermal junction between heat sink and CPU to shift, often with near disastrous results.
A secondary problem arrises when you take a look at the tops of these CPUs with a machinist's die bar... most of them are not flat. I have about 10 in stock right now (2 Palamino 1800s and a bunch of 2400s) and <i>none</i> of the heat islands are actually flat on top. They all have a very slight dome in the center... it's not much, maybe .05 mm but it's enough to allow the heatsink to rock slightly on top the CPU which squeezes the heat sink grease right out of the thermal juntion, leaving it in essentially the same state as if no grease was ever applied.
The so-called fix for this is to mechanically stablize the heatsink using a shim to prevent the heatsink from tipping on the top of the CPU. Of course this only works if the shim is within a fraction of a millimeter of the right thickness... The real fix would be for AMD to get off their cheapo butts and put heat spreaders on their chips like most other companies do.
Of late I've been experimenting with replacing the rubber stabalizers with larger nylon plastic ones that are within .1 mm of the top of the heat island in height and right on the extreme corners of the chip. The results are promising so far. On one of the machines giving me the most trouble (creeping temperature and abrupt overheating whenever the machine was moved) is presently holding at 44C even after a half dozen 1" drops.
Soooooo:
1) the CPU shim is not there for cooling reasons. It adds mechanical stability between the cpu's diminuative heat island and the heatsink by providing a rigid limit to physical motion of the heatsink. Don't count on it for cooling no matter what the manufacturer has said.
2) Make sure the shim you use is <i>non-conductive</i> or you risk it shorting out the programming jumpers on top of the CPU chip. There are a few idiot companies actually producing copper ones!
3) Apply heatsink grease to the top of the CPU only. The instructions for correct application are here: <A HREF="http://www.arcticsilver.com/arctic_silver_instructions.htm" target="_new">http://www.arcticsilver.com/arctic_silver_instructions.htm</A>
Good luck!
--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
A secondary problem arrises when you take a look at the tops of these CPUs with a machinist's die bar... most of them are not flat. I have about 10 in stock right now (2 Palamino 1800s and a bunch of 2400s) and <i>none</i> of the heat islands are actually flat on top. They all have a very slight dome in the center... it's not much, maybe .05 mm but it's enough to allow the heatsink to rock slightly on top the CPU which squeezes the heat sink grease right out of the thermal juntion, leaving it in essentially the same state as if no grease was ever applied.
The so-called fix for this is to mechanically stablize the heatsink using a shim to prevent the heatsink from tipping on the top of the CPU. Of course this only works if the shim is within a fraction of a millimeter of the right thickness... The real fix would be for AMD to get off their cheapo butts and put heat spreaders on their chips like most other companies do.
Of late I've been experimenting with replacing the rubber stabalizers with larger nylon plastic ones that are within .1 mm of the top of the heat island in height and right on the extreme corners of the chip. The results are promising so far. On one of the machines giving me the most trouble (creeping temperature and abrupt overheating whenever the machine was moved) is presently holding at 44C even after a half dozen 1" drops.
Soooooo:
1) the CPU shim is not there for cooling reasons. It adds mechanical stability between the cpu's diminuative heat island and the heatsink by providing a rigid limit to physical motion of the heatsink. Don't count on it for cooling no matter what the manufacturer has said.
2) Make sure the shim you use is <i>non-conductive</i> or you risk it shorting out the programming jumpers on top of the CPU chip. There are a few idiot companies actually producing copper ones!
3) Apply heatsink grease to the top of the CPU only. The instructions for correct application are here: <A HREF="http://www.arcticsilver.com/arctic_silver_instructions.htm" target="_new">http://www.arcticsilver.com/arctic_silver_instructions.htm</A>
Good luck!
--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
whenever someone says ANYTHING about AMD CPUs you start dissing them.... I work for a business part time locally installing video cards and diagnosing that heatsinks are not installed properly and such and they work with AMD cpu's and they have much less trouble with them than Intels. I think this is a case of Athlon-envy here....
eBay, kick ass!
My 3DMark2001 Score: <A HREF="http://link" target="_new">http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6258104</A>
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I bought from Best Buy once. Once.
eBay, kick ass!
My 3DMark2001 Score: <A HREF="http://link" target="_new">http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6258104</A>
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I bought from Best Buy once. Once.
Lets not start a flame war here, this guy wants to know about his install, Teq explained one of the good uses for a shim, based on his experiance.
Ive worked with many systems and had the same problems with any clip device... so it is not an unfounded argument (in fact, the last heatsink problem I fixed was a slot 1 P3)
<font color=red>*</font color=red><font color=white>*</font color=white><font color=blue>*</font color=blue>
... And I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free, and I won't forget the men who died, who gave that right to me.
Ive worked with many systems and had the same problems with any clip device... so it is not an unfounded argument (in fact, the last heatsink problem I fixed was a slot 1 P3)
<font color=red>*</font color=red><font color=white>*</font color=white><font color=blue>*</font color=blue>
... And I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free, and I won't forget the men who died, who gave that right to me.
You know Teq instead of downing AMD systems because you seem to not have enough experiance to set them up properly and stably have a look at some of the problems Intel has had.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=8961
I personaly have sold around 70 AMD systems over the past 3 years and not one has come back to me with a problem caused by the CPU yet.
AREA_51
'It's only when you look at an ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day that you realise how often they burst into flames'
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=8961
I personaly have sold around 70 AMD systems over the past 3 years and not one has come back to me with a problem caused by the CPU yet.
AREA_51
'It's only when you look at an ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day that you realise how often they burst into flames'
"You know Teq instead of downing AMD systems because you seem to not have enough experiance to set them up properly and stably have a look at some of the problems Intel has had."
It is a technician's JOB to know about and understand the problems that occur in electronic devices. That's how we make our livings. I was asked for advice and I gave it... why is that a problem?
I've been working in electronics more than 30 years, with computers for at least 20... I've designed computer systems for Point Of Sale, Robotic, Hobbiest and Business use. I have almost 15 years of field service experience and 5 years as a service manager/trainer. I've been building systems professionaly for 6 years now...
So I just gotta ask...
Exactly how much experience does it take to set up an AMD system?
--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
It is a technician's JOB to know about and understand the problems that occur in electronic devices. That's how we make our livings. I was asked for advice and I gave it... why is that a problem?
I've been working in electronics more than 30 years, with computers for at least 20... I've designed computer systems for Point Of Sale, Robotic, Hobbiest and Business use. I have almost 15 years of field service experience and 5 years as a service manager/trainer. I've been building systems professionaly for 6 years now...
So I just gotta ask...
Exactly how much experience does it take to set up an AMD system?
--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
Well clerarly you have expertise in the wrong fieids. I have set up some AMD systems for some pretty bad conditions. Example. I had 2 systems I built. An Athlon 1.4gighz T-Bird and a Duron 700Mhz. Both of these went to the same place. My parents place. Now a background of the condions. They bough a block out in the middle of nowhere a few years ago. And it is dusty hot half of the year and humid and hot the rest. A pleasent day is 30degrees C. Hot is 50. Now before building a house they built a shed. This shed only had a dirt floor. Wasnt sealed in any way no air conditioner and to make matters worse it is impossible to make the top layer of dirt set so you always have a loos layer of dirt. Now these 2 systems wernt anything special. Just on A7V133-c Asus motherboards with fairly ordinary HSF`s as I said one was a 1.4gighz T-Bird and the other a 700 Duron. Now those systems worked in those conditions for about 18Months and never ever caused a problem. And they are still working now. Though in better conditions. But you wouldnt believe how much dust I blew out of those computers when they were moved out of the shed. They were full of it. Now I dont have as much experiance in any field as you have but if I can make not 1 but 2 AMD machines one of them a T-Bird 1.4gighz (a VERY hot chip) work in those conditions perfectly fine without any problems then I dont see why you cant make them work properly in much kinder conditions. Also during those 18Months they were not serviced so they had the full effect of it.
AREA_51
'It's only when you look at an ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day that you realise how often they burst into flames'
AREA_51
'It's only when you look at an ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day that you realise how often they burst into flames'
Auburn9698
Champion
- Feb 19, 2003
- 20,521
- 0
- 50,780
What, you're not even a Certified CPU Socket Lever Operator? There's no way you know what you're doing, then.
You noob.
War Eagle
You noob.
War Eagle
Well the fact is if I can do that why cant you do something easier if you are so much better? AMD CPU`s are just beyond your abilities.
AREA_51
'It's only when you look at an ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day that you realise how often they burst into flames'
AREA_51
'It's only when you look at an ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day that you realise how often they burst into flames'
Well I am not taking anything personaly. You seem to have taken the question of your skills personaly. I am just asking if you are so skilled why do you seem to have so many problems with AMD CPU`s where as pleanty of other people on this forum have none? You are just proving to be nothing more than an intel fanboy with your constant unfounded attacks on AMD.
AREA_51
'It's only when you look at an ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day that you realise how often they burst into flames'
AREA_51
'It's only when you look at an ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day that you realise how often they burst into flames'
Am I taking the attack on my skills personally?
Wouldn't you?
I could as easily say that you are an AMD fanboy who doesn't like it when I point out problems with AMD's heat handling methods.
Clue: My personal use machine is an AMD and I'm in no hurry to get rid of it.
My point? We are here to talk about computers. Not eachother.
--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
Wouldn't you?
I could as easily say that you are an AMD fanboy who doesn't like it when I point out problems with AMD's heat handling methods.
Clue: My personal use machine is an AMD and I'm in no hurry to get rid of it.
My point? We are here to talk about computers. Not eachother.
--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
"Am I taking the attack on my skills personally?
Wouldn't you?"
Point taken.
I knew your machine is an AMD. XP1800 I think you said if I remember correctly. But it looks like you arnt going to answer my question so I think I will not bother anymore and just go to bed. It is wasting time for both of us. Until next time our horns lock.
AREA_51
'It's only when you look at an ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day that you realise how often they burst into flames'
Wouldn't you?"
Point taken.
I knew your machine is an AMD. XP1800 I think you said if I remember correctly. But it looks like you arnt going to answer my question so I think I will not bother anymore and just go to bed. It is wasting time for both of us. Until next time our horns lock.
AREA_51
'It's only when you look at an ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day that you realise how often they burst into flames'
If you mean that business about if I'm so experienced why am I having this problem when others don't?
Well the answer is that I am experienced enough that I often find problems you most likely don't even recognize... like this heatsink thing.
Would it ever occur to you to check the flatness of your CPU's heat island with a die bar? What do you think I found that you'd never even think to look for... that's right, the tops of the 20 or so XP processors I've got here are not flat, they are slightly domed... which means that the contact area between the CPU and heatsink is actually about the size of a pin head. It also means the heatsink is sitting on a curved surface and not only can but does move around.
Would it occur to you to test how much it takes to cause a problem? I don't just assemble these things and fling them out the door. Any new configuration is subjected to several days of testing, including failure modes before I list it on my sheets... I refuse to sell crap.
Would it ever occur to you to work out a way of resolving problems? I actually have custom made stabilizer clips being made to deal with this heatsink problem, I make my own fan controllers and audio amplifiers, I've even had custom furniture made for my customers and you should see the nifty fan silencers I've got coming!
I see it all the time... people put up with things that are not right... customers who have clicked "OK" on a warning panel 50 or 60 times and have never once considered reporting it, people who are rebooting unstable systems 10 and 20 times a day rather than get them fixed AND... worst of all... technicians who shrug and say "They're all like that" without making any effort to deal with the problem. All this leads me to wonder how much stuff AMD fans are putting up with -- how often do they re-seat their heatsinks, how often do they ignore error messages, how many put up with dangerously high temperatures, etc.
Bottom line, the difference between a tech and a card swapper is that the tech will identify and correct problems the card swapper isn't even aware of. It's a matter of experience and depth of skill... the two things most present day "technicians" lack.
If you have good luck with AMD I'm happy for you... provided it is luck and not simple ignorance. There is a reason why AMD only has a 10% share even though the've been around as long as Intel... and that reason is <i>Quality</i>
--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
Well the answer is that I am experienced enough that I often find problems you most likely don't even recognize... like this heatsink thing.
Would it ever occur to you to check the flatness of your CPU's heat island with a die bar? What do you think I found that you'd never even think to look for... that's right, the tops of the 20 or so XP processors I've got here are not flat, they are slightly domed... which means that the contact area between the CPU and heatsink is actually about the size of a pin head. It also means the heatsink is sitting on a curved surface and not only can but does move around.
Would it occur to you to test how much it takes to cause a problem? I don't just assemble these things and fling them out the door. Any new configuration is subjected to several days of testing, including failure modes before I list it on my sheets... I refuse to sell crap.
Would it ever occur to you to work out a way of resolving problems? I actually have custom made stabilizer clips being made to deal with this heatsink problem, I make my own fan controllers and audio amplifiers, I've even had custom furniture made for my customers and you should see the nifty fan silencers I've got coming!
I see it all the time... people put up with things that are not right... customers who have clicked "OK" on a warning panel 50 or 60 times and have never once considered reporting it, people who are rebooting unstable systems 10 and 20 times a day rather than get them fixed AND... worst of all... technicians who shrug and say "They're all like that" without making any effort to deal with the problem. All this leads me to wonder how much stuff AMD fans are putting up with -- how often do they re-seat their heatsinks, how often do they ignore error messages, how many put up with dangerously high temperatures, etc.
Bottom line, the difference between a tech and a card swapper is that the tech will identify and correct problems the card swapper isn't even aware of. It's a matter of experience and depth of skill... the two things most present day "technicians" lack.
If you have good luck with AMD I'm happy for you... provided it is luck and not simple ignorance. There is a reason why AMD only has a 10% share even though the've been around as long as Intel... and that reason is <i>Quality</i>
--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
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