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AMD Processors

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  • CPUs
  • Heatsinks
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April 20, 2003 5:33:42 AM

how serious a problem is the heatsink coming unmounted? i dont move my computer to much, though it ocassionally gets bumped and i take it to lan partys now and then, nothing serious just normal wear and tear

also, is arctic silver thermal grease necessary, or should i be fine with the heatsink/heatpad combo from AMD, ill be running two 80cm fans and a dual fan PS for airoutake, and one 8cm fan air intake on the front

any suggestions on the cooling? is it overkill or should i add an extra 12cm fan on the side blowing air onto the processor


"Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion."
- Gen. (Ret) Norman Schwartzkopf

More about : amd processors

April 20, 2003 6:00:46 AM

dood the mount on a socket A (462) is very strong. i wouldn't even think of it as an issue like most people here will tell you. but do make sure you mount the hs correctly. arctic silver is not a must, but it really does work.

Quote:
is it overkill or should i add an extra 12cm fan on the side blowing air onto the processor

its up to you. i'd see how the case temp is before i "add more noise" tho. and it doesn't sound like you'll be ocing, so i'd say you should be fine, but i don't even know what cpu you're using.

<font color=orange><b>these days every one knows how small your penis is, and they are dying to help you with many many penis enlargement emails.
April 20, 2003 6:02:13 AM

You will be fine. There are too many false stories going on about AMD having major problems with heatsinks and heat etc etc. There are too many alarmst out there. The problem is in fact very minute. Your setup there should be fine. Hell I had a T-Bird 1.4gig come in once and they are very hot the only CPU hotter is the P4 3.06gighz and the T-Bird didnt even have cooling as good as yours and it was and still is fine. So you should have no worries.
AREA_51

'It's only when you look at an ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day that you realise how often they burst into flames'
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April 20, 2003 3:22:49 PM

Ok, speaking as the primary alarmist of the bunch... let me tell you it's not that big a deal at all. Nobody is talking about heatsinks falling off CPUs or things going up in smoke...

What started all this is that I ran into a problem with a number of AMD machines, mostly in three groups that were soaking up an inordinate amount of my time doing heat related service calls. Because this was strictly an AMD thing, I made a financial decision not to sell AMD based systems. I still own two AMD systems and like them just fine. It has however become rather exaggerated as people leapt to the fore defending their love of AMD and taking swipes at my competence as a technician. I mean really... how dare I discuss a technical issue on a hardware oriented BBS :smile:

Methinks the problem is that most people here aren't used to seeing discussion of repair and engineering issues and don't appreciate that one can discuss a problem with a device without disliking the device itself.

The problem, as it turned out, was that these machines were being jarred almost daily by cleaning crews who were picking them up to dust under the fronts of them and then just dropping them the last half inch or so to avoid pinching their fingers. It turns out the offices where the problems were coming up were all using the same cleaning company. They've now been replaced and the problem seems to have moved on with them.

Still, when a half inch drop can disturb a heatsink enough that I have to go out to a customer's office and re-install it, there is a real problem there. That's way too delicate for commercial use.

As I looked further into the problem I did discover some minor inadequacies in the way AMDs handle heat ... nothing disastrous, mind you, but (I thought) enough to warrant comment. Basically it's a mechanical problem of keeping the heatsink stable on top of the cpu's heat island when the top of the heat island itself is not always flat... all the XP processors I have here are slightly domed, only about .05mm, but that's enough to allow some movement, especially when jarred.

Needless to say keeping something from moving on a domed surface is not done with a single point of pressure from a spring clip. So the problem is purely mechanical... the electronics of the AMD CPU are just fine and were it not for this problem I would still be selling AMD in preference to Intel.

The symptoms of movement are fairly easy to recognize; the CPU temperature will creep up slowly over time. Or, if jarred, it will jump about 5c or 10c over night. In a few cases, with machines that are in heavy use, this could (and did) become a problem since it may triggering the system's heat alarms causing abrupt shutdowns. People were losing half and whole day's worth of data processing when the systems simply switched themselves off with no warning. This won't be much of a problem for a homeowner but in an office where the company's well being is on the line it cannot be tolerated.

But, as it turns out there is a simple solution.. I've had some small stabilizer clips custom made and am presently running around putting them in all my AMD systems. This seems to clear the problem right up. For you the solution, should you run into this, would be to purchase one of the readily available non-conductive shims. (<A HREF="http://www.casecooler.com/unnonmicshim.html" target="_new">http://www.casecooler.com/unnonmicshim.html&lt;/A>)

My mistake, in terms of the politics of this BBS was thinking I could discuss this with other knowledgeable people without getting my ass burned for daring to find fault with their beloved AMD processors.



--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
April 20, 2003 6:18:54 PM

Teq-
I don't remember anyone titling you as the alarmist of the bunch or anyone writing about heat sinks falling off of anything. Anyone who has followed the board in the last two weeks knows your feelings on this. Thanks for the opinion, that's what this is all about, but please drop the whole damn story, okay? It's getting old and tired. There's probably some truth to it, but it's been posted a dozen times and most of us are aware of your concerns. You are just one voice that means nothing more than anyone else's. My problem isn't that you prefer serviceing and selling Intel systems, it's just that I'm tired of hearing about it. Please for everyone's sanity, let it die. Thanks.
-Brett
April 20, 2003 9:50:39 PM

As StealthBlade is a new user to this forum, chances are that he/she didn't read the prvious posts of Teq. So I guess you just shouldn't have read Teq's post. I've learned over the years I've been on this forum (yes, I am only a member, but I've been here for quite a while ...), that many, many things get repeated, just fot the sake of new readers and users. That really is something you'll have to live with ...

Greetz,
Bikeman

<i>Then again, that's just my opinion</i>
April 20, 2003 10:26:34 PM

Sure thing. Watch the topics... the discussions on these BBSs go in about a 1 or 2 week cycle. Every once in a while something new comes along, but then it too joins the cycle. It's only the people having the discussions that actually change over time.

--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
April 20, 2003 11:47:50 PM

Yeah I guess you're right. My apologies.
-Brett
April 21, 2003 4:00:54 AM

actually i am aware of teq's views, i tend to lurk on the THG forums

anyways, ill be running a athlon xp 2700, hopefully it seems amd just slashed prices severly, the 2700 now costs the same as a 2.53 ghz p4, which i was originally thinking of

"Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion."
- Gen. (Ret) Norman Schwartzkopf
April 21, 2003 6:36:43 AM

I personally think we need more reviews of your sort on these forums. I don't roam this forum that often, mainly roam in the mobo forums, but i have read your previous posts and I respect what you have to say. I'm interested in hearing more about your stabalizer bars that you had custom made. Any pictures? Could you describe how they work?
April 21, 2003 4:28:51 PM

I'm glad someone appreciates me :smile:

Unfortunately this BBS won't let us post small images or I could post the drawings...

Basically the stabilizers are small nylon blocks, .75mm tall, 1cm square with a small ridge on one edge to align them with the edges of the CPU. They simply sit on top of the CPU at the center of each side, attached with small drops of gum adhesive (like the stuff on Scotch tape) and prevent the heatsink from rocking when pressed or jarred.

Pretty simple stuff, really.




--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
April 22, 2003 5:14:38 PM

Sure, shims are a good thing. But anyways, if you use a mainboard with thermal protection and a Athlon XP, your CPU won't burn anyways.
April 22, 2003 5:23:37 PM

My point isn't about things burning up.

It's about systems abruptly shutting down and costing people hours of work when they do. This may not be much of a problem for gamers or homeowners, but when a business has it's wellbeing on the line it's completely intolerable.

--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
April 22, 2003 5:26:50 PM

Yep, understood. And like I said, no doubt, shims are good because system stability matters a lot for companies. However, I just wanted to make other home user feel a bit more safe by reminding them that a mainboard with working thermal protection would always save your Athlon XP/MP CPU from the very unpleasant event of smoke clouds.
April 22, 2003 5:41:00 PM

Those who don't read and discuss to learn will never learn. I've gotten to where I skip over any post that's a rant - which happens to be half or more of posts... Saves time...Very few actually have intelligent information to provide. I wonder if any of those people polluting forums with their little diatribes realize that after a while people get bored and ignore them? Give me the facts - or I'm not interested.
April 22, 2003 6:12:30 PM

Ok... I guess I misunderstood a little.

The thermal safeties are important in business too... should a cooling disaster strike it would be nice if the computer didn't burn down the office.

Unfortunately the problems I was encountering came up long before there was the risk of CPU damage. Temperatures were creeping up over time and suddenly when the system is jarred, not to the point of CPU damage but definately to the point of triggering SMB monitors to initiate system shutdowns (75c).

Truth is we're both right :smile:

--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
April 22, 2003 6:17:48 PM

LOL... which side of the "rant" fence do you put me on?

Or maybe I shouldn't ask...???





--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
April 22, 2003 6:18:44 PM

What do you say? I'm sorry, I didn't read your post, it looked like a rant to me, so I skipped it. :tongue:

That one post TEQ posted did contain valuable information. And if it isn't interesting for you, then yes, skip it. But don't try to kick up your postcount by posting posts like the one I'm replying to right now.

Though actually, I'm doing like about the same thing here. :redface: Though what I say doesn't become less true by that ...

Greetz,
Bikeman

<i>Then again, that's just my opinion</i>
April 22, 2003 7:01:31 PM

Yah, understand completely. Pretty obviously no one wants shutdowns.

For sure we're both right :) 
April 22, 2003 7:29:09 PM

See ... didn't hurt a bit :wink:



--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
April 22, 2003 7:37:51 PM

nope. :smile:
April 22, 2003 8:52:14 PM

Have anyone answered to stealth_blade ?
AMD processor have been for while synonymous of problems for the high temperature of the die. This was due to the small area of contact between the cpu core and the heat sink as well as to the 180 nm process.
May be for this processor, the realization of more engineered cpu cooler has been pushed yielding to the commercialization of copper based cooler.
Now this is only hystory. The 130 nm process and good cpu cooler allow to operate at quite ambient temperature (40÷45 °C). The socket A is absolutely strong (even if you can broke the socket A with a Hammer !!). The AMD CPU has reached his maturity....Unfortunately just when Intel released a new Bomb-CPU working at 800 MHz FSB.
About the thermal compound AMD suggest to use thermal paste, such as Arctic Silver III, when you use to change frequently the cooler. If you do not foresee to change the cooler frequently, the thermal pad is more convenient as it is more stable then the thermal paste which may drain after some time reducing too much the thickness. However a thermal paste like Arctic Silver III is probably the best solution at least for the first six months.
I also noted that nobody mention about the operating system.
Windows 98 cause an increase of the CPU temperature of about 10 degrees Celtius with respect to Windows 2000 or Windows XP.
Provide a good air circulation especially if you want to supply an overvoltage to the CPU for overclocking purposes.
Do not blow to much air onto the cooler fan because you can compromise the fan aerodynamics, reducing its efficiency and probably increasing the noise.
Finally use a good cooler. I found very effective the Cooler master HACV81XDream and the Cooler Master AERO 7.
Both of them use copper as primary conductive material to drain the heat from the CPU die.
I installed several AMD system using XP 2700+ and XP 2800+
The temperature is easily below 45 °C and one of this computer is brought around the world continuously (it is called the "portable") without any particular attention.

Principle of the highest harassment for engineers says: having two events, one bad and one favorable, with the same probability to occur, it is most probable that the bad event will occur
April 23, 2003 8:20:01 PM

If you're going to be a regular LPA (Lan Party Animal) then I'd recommend getting a heatsink that attatches itself to your motherboard using the 4 holes around the socket. The lugs on the socket for clip attatchment only support a certain amount of pressure and this can be of concern if you've got a heavy heatsink plus regular movement - especially if the clip only uses a single lug.

The AMD Athlon CPU's give off more heat than the Intels but this is to be expected given that the chip's doing wore work per clock cycle. With this extra heat in mind a heatsink made either partly or fully of copper gets my vote although these do weigh more.

The main benefit of using a premium heatsink compound such as Arctic Silver 3 is in overclocking. The biggest improvement you'll see (depending on setup) is about a 5 degree celcius drop during load which won't make any difference running stock speeds. But once your processors overclocked the cooler it is the more stable it will be.


<b>Vorsprung durch Dontwerk</b>.....<i>as they say at VIA</i>
April 25, 2003 3:38:41 AM

any recomendations on a good cooler that secures with the 4 bolt holes?


"Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion."
- Gen. (Ret) Norman Schwartzkopf
April 25, 2003 11:36:53 AM

I have a Thermaltake Dragon Orb 3 (copper/aluminium) on my xp1600+. It probably weighs half a ton but never moved an inch (or less)
It keeps my processor on a comfortable 45 degrees so it would cool a newer cpu even better i believe... (don't kill me if i am wrong, i am quite a n00b at this time)

Jodel
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