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Need convincing to buy P4 over Celeron 2gig

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April 25, 2003 8:42:05 AM

The review of the Celeron 2.0 Gigahertz says "anyone making a serious desision would be advised to buy the P4 or the AMD"

Why? The P4 is twice as much, and judging by the benchmarks, doesn't exactly give twice the power, more like 1 quarter, on average. Except with Comanche 4, where the P4 was definatley twice as good as the Celeron 2gig.
I put that down to the sheer number of objects that Comanche 4 must have going (soldiers, explosions, trees, aircraft, ammo, etc)

So unless I'm into games with a lot of objects happening, I dont' see why I should spend so much more money for 1/4 more performance.

I don't play a lot of games, but the games I do play I take very seriously (for example, I am basing my next upgrade around the upcoming Thief 3; whatever its system requirements are, thats what my system specs will be)

Other than that, my highest priorities are stability, and then cost, in that order.


So, why would the review say you're better off with a P4 when the performance increase doesn't seem worth the price increase? Am I mis-interpreting the results?

Also, given my priorities, will I really care about the performance increase of the P4 over the Celeron?
April 25, 2003 9:34:00 AM

You would be best off buying AMD. The Athlon 2100`s are cheper than the celery`s now buy a fair margin will slaughter the celery. You will find with the celeron that everyday activities from writing a letter to browsing the internet wil be sluggish on the celeron. An it is not a minor thing either. I have used celeron 2gighz machines and they are absolutly painful. And dont even think of trying to play thief 3 on a 2gighz celeron. Or any other serious game. The celeron just doesnt have any abilities to play newer games. It is just too slow a CPU. Equal to about a AMD duron at aroung 800Mhz. If that. If you wanted to go intel you would be much better off getting a pee4. That would slaughter the P4 based celeron. Getting the P4 celeron would be a serious mistake and anyone who does it needs their head examined. Now if you got an AMD 2100 T-Bred B CPU and an Epox 8RDA you would be laughing. You would have a machine that can very easily slaughter a celeron at 3gighz but you would have it for a MUCH cheaper price than the celeron 2gighz. And also slaughter a pee4 at 2gighz as well. As the benchmarks showed the XP 1600 can keep up pretty well with a celeron at 3gighz. So you can imagine what a 2100 will do to it. And dont worry about stability. The 2100 and an Epox 8RDA will be just as stable as anything intel can come up with. AMD are NOT unstable CPU`s. It is nothing more than a myth and to be honest I am getting a bit sick of it. But again you would have to be pretty stupid to go for the celeron 2gighz. Just get an AMD 2100 for less.
AREA_51

'It's only when you look at an ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day that you realise how often they burst into flames'
April 25, 2003 10:34:33 AM

Prices found on <A HREF="http://www.dabs.com/products/prod-search.asp?action=sea..." target="_new">Dabs.com</A>:
Celeron 2.2 GHz - £92.00
Celeron 2.3 GHz - £106.00
Pentium 2.4 GHz - £143.00

Personally, I'd say the Celeron's are quite expensive given you can pay £37 extra for upto 2x performance.

I run a Celeron 2.2 GHz at around 2.5 GHz - even then I get sluggish performance in one or two games. I feel it's the cache size which performs an important role here.

But I would never say it's inadequate for standard home use. I can sit here play games, MSN, WinMX running, or playing MS Train Simulator or Unreal Tournament 2003. Don't get me wrong, these games aren't silky smooth - but they're fine for me.

I'm on a budget, and have to carefully consider if I can afford whether I can go the extra mile when spending. True, the P4 might be more bang for buck than the Celeron - but the price isn't in my region :frown: . Maybe I'll stretch my plastic card in a few months time, and sell this CPU on eBay :smile: .

If you ask me, buy a Celeron if you don't want to spend too much, and overclock what you can out of it. I feel this is a good way of getting your money's worth from your CPU. If you have the money, but a Pentium 4.

As for AMD....well I have nothing against them, but quite frankly I've never been a fan of them. I admire them for managing to get more horse-power per clock cycle than Intel, but frankly the heat dissapation worries me. I've seen a few near-death AMD experiences in standard home computers, where dust ceases the CPU fan and the CPU overheats causing it to sh!t itself!

Admittingly though, my own Celeron temperature worries me sometimes. At about 50C (overclocked), I find it a little high. I remember my Celeron 400 @ 500 MHz being in the 30C zone and I used to worry if it hit 40C :redface: ! But I've grown used to it being at that temperature now!

At the end of the day, buy what *you* want. Don't let AMD or Intel fan boys in here over rule your judgement. I hate Intel for not being to do as much as AMD does per clock cycle. But then I hate AMD for having high CPU temperatures and frying easily (in the past).

It's your decision. But let me know what decision you make, just to satisfy my curiosity! :smile:

<font color=orange><b>Some people don't realise that a mere two hours backing up their data is far quicker than redoing all the work again!</b></font color=orange>
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April 25, 2003 12:06:07 PM

No, you aren't misinterpreting the results.

Take into account who's writing these reviews and Who's reading them. A lot of these reviewers know their audiences very well. The average consumer of online reviews is someone who is of a technical mind and most often into gaming, overclocking or other pursuits where tinkering with the PC's hardware is part of the attraction. For example: I've never seen a watercooled system in a business application but there are lots in use by gamers. Reviewers cater to this market and when you read their recommendations you can safely assume an implied "for gaming" or "for overclocking" in what they write.

Intel's strategy is that Celeron chips are always a couple of core-sets behind their lead product, but with less cache. They are in essence still their lead product. As of 1.7ghz Celerons mount on the same motherboards as pentium 4. They are basically the P4 with extra chache disabled and limited to a 100mhz system buss. (Intel says 400mhz, but believe me, it's actually 100)

For workstation computing --soho, net surfing, word processing, etc-- the Celeron is an excellent processor and the lower cost is a nice bonus. It's stable as a rock, probably won't need servicing during it's lifetime and runs cooler than the P4. The Celeron's smaller chache size can be a drawback in some very busy games or multimeda intense applications but it still gets the job done, overall the performance of Celeron processors is more than adequate for all but the most demanding of tasks.

You could go with an AMD system as has been suggested. AMD's are tick for tick faster than either Celeron or P4 in most applications and usually the overall system cost is lower than for a comperable P4. But, in my experience AMD systems tend to be less stable and require more service attention than Intel does. If you look through the various threads on this board you will find a lot of issues with chipsets and stability in AMD systems. I recently ran into a bit of nastiness with a few machines that kept overheating. While there are AMD systems that just get put to work and never need a technician's attention, my own experience tells me this is the exception not the rule.

As for the last question about whether you need to care about the performance differences... In a well optimized system it is unlikely that you would notice them unless you put two systems side by side and ran tests. I doubt that your game will be a total disaster even though you will know a P4 might do better. For the general use of the machine it is unlikely you will find yourself regretting the Celeron purchase.

Finally, with the switch to the P4 motherboards, the celeron can easily be swapped out for a P4 someplace down the road, if you think it's necessary.



--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
April 25, 2003 12:37:41 PM

I just want to point out that AMD hasnt had any thermal death problems since the Thunderbird core as long as you use a proper motherboard that follows the proper AMD thermal diode cutoff specifications. Which pretty much includes every motherboard made in the last year at least. And also the T-Bred B core athlons auctaly generate far less heat then an equilivent P4. But other than that your points are valid.
AREA_51

'It's only when you look at an ant through a magnifying glass on a sunny day that you realise how often they burst into flames'
April 25, 2003 1:22:26 PM

That depends on your definition of a heat problem.

If you mean the new motherboard circuitry will shut down the computer protecting the CPU you are correct, the new circuit works very well.

But, if you mean having the computer abruptly switch itself off right in the middle of updating your company's accounts receivable, scrambling the data base in the process... no they aren't anywhere near fixing the problem.



--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
April 26, 2003 3:49:28 PM

I bought a 2 GHz. Celeron just to see how far I could overclock it... Sure enough I got it up to 3.2 GHz. but when benchmarking it is really weak. Lots of thrashing, but not much performance.

The lack of L2 Cache really handicaps the Celeron. I have it running now at 2.66 GHz. in my wife's work PC (using the 533 FSB speed) and it is rock stable and gives roughly the same performance as a 2.0 GHz. P4 Northwood. She does mostly word processing... so obviously not a problem. With your gaming requirements however, I would think the Northwood P4 is where you should be going...

Scout
700 Mflops in SETI!
April 26, 2003 4:27:56 PM

Yeah but have you ever experienced an AMD shutting itself off? Unless you leave off the heatsink, or turn off the fan, it doesnt happen. Basically, if you know enough about computers to be on this forum, your clever enough to keep your temps down by installing the HSF correctly.

<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=5467618 " target="_new">Almost Breaking 12k!!</A>
April 26, 2003 6:12:18 PM

Teq seems to know what he's talking about. I beleive him. I've had lots of problems with AMD systems. I haven't had any problems with my Intel setup. I've had this puppy basicly running for a year with occasionaly reboots and shutoffs now and no problems at all. upgraded a lot since then too. Not one problem.

It's quiet, stable, and fast.

I have nothing against AMD. Just they arn't as stable as intel. Opteron/athlon64 on the other hand with internal thermal protection will be a hit. BUT! AMD must increase the clock speed and beat intels highest performer. But i think AMD will be able to once they get it past 2ghz.

Life is irrelivent and irrational.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
April 26, 2003 6:17:06 PM

you make some good points. AMD's chip is fast no doubt. But it's brute force and it isn't smart. Intels chip is smart and it is still fast enough to do the job and do it longer.

which would you prefere, it running really fast for a short period of time or going a little slower but running a lot longer through high temperatures and cold temperature seasons.

AMD is a great chip if you live in the north. But in 90 degree+ weather it doesn't stand a chance. You need a loud 8000RPM fan. My bro has this and i check the temps on a 70degree weather it was at 42C. ya normal but it has an 8000RPM fan installed and during the winter it was at 32.

Life is irrelivent and irrational.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
April 26, 2003 6:19:12 PM

how about that it's faster?for 159 you can get a 2.4ghz on a 533mhz fsb.- how much was the celeron? 120 or something for a 2ghz which runs like a 1.7ghz p4. dude common ... clearly the p4 is that much faster and it isn't that much more to get a chip that is soo much faster.

Life is irrelivent and irrational.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
April 26, 2003 6:36:37 PM

An AMD system is as stable as an Intel system...those are the hard facts...enough said...

Intelligence is not merely the wealth of knowledge but the sum of perception, wisdom, and knowledge.
April 26, 2003 6:41:01 PM

xxsk8er101xx: have you ever heard of the edit button ? :) 
topic: Celerons may are cheap, true, but also cheap in quality tho. AMD´s are great if u plan to have a normal desktop system that doesn´t run more than 5 hours a day, if you get a nice heatsink/cooler it might be useful for 24/7 aswell. And if money doesn´t matter so much go for a Pentium, at least till AMD catches up again.

--- signature to long ;( ---
April 26, 2003 10:31:36 PM

I currently own a Celeron 2.20 GHz. This is overclocked at 2.57 GHz (increased since my last contribution to this article).

Since this thread started, I've been researching prices for a possible upgrade. The upgrade is the result of plentiful savings, and hopefully a decent price of this CPU if I sell it on eBay.

But the one major thing that has put me off buying a P4 is the price. Particular those with Hyper-Threading enabled!

Go to <A HREF="http://www.tekheads.co.uk/site/browseCategory.do?catego..." target="_new">Tekheads</A> (during my research, found this company to be one the cheapest suppliers of Pentium 4's). The price of a <b>Intel Pentium 4 2.4B Retail 'Northwood'</b> is £133.29. The price of a <b>Intel Pentium 4 3.06GHz 'Northwood' HT Enabled OEM</b> is £337.08.

I ask you guys this: is a price difference of <b>£203.79</b> really worth the extra 0.66 GHz with Hyper-Threading enabled?

I do see the reasoning of AMD fans that Intel is expensive. The way I see it, you're paying for reliability (when they don't make cock-ups such as those in the recent past).

My theory is the extra horse-work AMD does per MHz runs up the extra heat - needless to say, they run a little hot for my personal preference!

Needless to say, I'm going to be waiting a while before buying my Pentium 4 Hyper-Threading enabled CPU. Hopefully I won't waste money on Celerons which have a pitiful 128K cache (such as the one I currently posses) for a long while after that purchase. Even if you can overclock the Celeron, I still don't believe you're getting the horsepower of a P4 at the same box-specified speed of the Celeron!

Just my little anger venting at Intel as I wait for prices to drop, sorry guys! :smile:

<font color=orange><b>Some people don't realise that a mere two hours backing up their data is far quicker than redoing all the work again!</b></font color=orange>
April 26, 2003 10:45:49 PM

No, I'm speaking from experience as well! I have 2 AMD systems and 2 Intel systems at home! My main rig is a 2.26GHz P4 with 512MB RDRAM.

Intelligence is not merely the wealth of knowledge but the sum of perception, wisdom, and knowledge.
April 26, 2003 11:35:54 PM

Try sticking a couple of zeros behind those numbers and see what happens...

When you're carring just over 200 warrantees on a healthy mix of p4, celeron, XP and duron systems then I might be a lot more prone to believe the word "experience" when I hear it.


--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
April 27, 2003 12:17:08 AM

Your kidding me right? Intel chips are smarter? And if you use proper cooling it doesn't matter where you live
(Bundled retail coolers are fine by the way). I am not a Fanboy because all my systems are Intel. You don't need a 8000 RPM fan that is just extreme unless your doing some overclocking. I am not a FAN of VIA by the way, although they are getting better. If going with AMD, i would go with an Nforce2 definately.

On the subject of the original post, If money is your concern go with an AMD setup, better performance with less money. Don't listen to some people in here spouting lies and inaccuracies. In case TEQ starts claiming that i know nothing and am not experienced. I have a Electronics Engineering Technician degree and am A+ certified, and up until recently i worked at a local computer store building and repairing PC's.

--------
The only thing i know...

is that i know nothing at all.
April 27, 2003 12:31:21 AM

hmm your message is good, combined with your signature it´s the greatest joke I´ve read today ~_~, oh well ... and certificates don´t mean very much in a scene that changes daily.

So, now I don´t see any reason for TEQ to start claiming that you don´t know anything (ok your sig makes it hard tho ;D).
I used AMD for 4 years (3 Systems) now and I must say that they did a great job, but right now it seems like Intel has
taken the lead again.
I never though I´d say this but my next system will have a P4 (click my name for more info).

tired of your OS? <A HREF="http://tinyurl.com/1kal" target="_new">cLicK mE</A>
April 27, 2003 1:23:47 AM

that sucks for you. At newegg the p4 3.06ghz retail cpu is $389 US - in pounds that would roughly be what, about 180 pounds? it's expensive because at the place you shop didn't slash prices that Intel already has. Meaning your store is profiting. I'd look around some more.

the difference from 2.4 and 3.06 is pretty huge. Look at the benchmarks. Hyperthreading also adds an extra umph.

also it depends on what you do. If you're a heavy user the 3ghz would be worth it but for someone just playing games a 2.4 is plenty paired with a decent video card and enough RAM.

Life is irrelivent and irrational.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
April 27, 2003 1:28:26 AM

Yea you are right about certificates, but it proves that you have a good base in Computer Hardware(plus alot of companies are anal about certification and won't hire you without them).

The sig is from a quote of socrates the actual quote is
"One thing only I know, and that is that I know nothing."

Sorry i was a little Harsh but i was little pissed off from the blatant inaccuracies? I mean AMD is okay in Cold climates but not in Warm ones?

--------
The only thing i know...

is that i know nothing at all.
April 27, 2003 1:39:20 AM

Really it doesn´t matter that much where you live, sure you´ll have to get a better cooler but not only with AMD processors, NO, Pentiums do get rid of the heat better, true, yet the difference isn´t that big.

I know how fast AMD´s fry, but that´s mostly a mistake with the heatsink not with AMD itself.

AMD will have better stock cooler soon i guess, well I ll have an P4 for at least 2 years now so I can wait :) 

Oh and you´re also right, I just got my apprenticeship due to my good certificates and there aren´t that much aps in the IT scene where I live. (It´s actually one of our major problems here)

tired of your OS? <A HREF="http://tinyurl.com/1kal" target="_new">cLicK mE</A>
April 27, 2003 3:18:32 AM

Quote:
In case TEQ starts claiming that i know nothing and am not experienced.

I wasn't going to say a word till I saw this.

I don't doubt your skills for a second... It's your maturity I'm questioning.


--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
April 27, 2003 3:23:26 AM

Quote:
I mean AMD is okay in Cold climates but not in Warm ones?

You do realize that in non-refrigerated cooling systems the operating temperatures are affected by ambient temperature?

When I get into ANY system in a hotter environment I always adjust the cooling accordingly. The stock AMD cooler is OK at 22c and gives an ample safety margin between operating and maximum temps. Make that ambient temp 32c and you've just taken 10c off your safety margins at which point a better cooling solution is clearly needed to maintain system stability.



--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
April 27, 2003 3:39:51 AM

The reason i mentioned it at all, was because you questioned someones experience earlier and i just wanted to make sure you knew mine. But in retrospect i was too harsh and jumped on your back. I was little annoyed about xxsk8er101xx post not yours. I apologize if i offended you.


--------
The only thing i know...

is that i know nothing at all.
April 27, 2003 4:55:08 AM

No problem... :smile:

It's just that I thought we were here to talk about computers, not eachother.


--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
April 27, 2003 9:10:04 AM

Im speaking from experience too. Ive had two AMD systems and three Intel systems. When I was younger I had a P60 (the first ever Pentium) then a PII 450 and then a PIII 750. Ther only reason we got these was because at the time I was under the age of 10 and my Dad did all of the buying (being an 'average' person, he knew nothing about AMD). I've also had a 2000+ Palomino (temps 39/47 - not bad really) and a Tbred B 1700+ overclocked to 2000+ speeds with temps of 39/47 PASSIVELY COOLED. Now can you really tell me with those temps that AMD processors run hot - I can't see that as being any hotter than the equivalent P4 system. also, both of these systems have been completely stable. I dont believe that I have ever had a crash.

<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=5467618 " target="_new">Almost Breaking 12k!!</A>
April 27, 2003 11:53:43 AM

Quote:
a Tbred B 1700+ overclocked to 2000+ speeds with temps of 39/47 PASSIVELY COOLED

WTF???? You MUST explain me how you do that ... (Unless it's one of those miracle-1700+s, but then still...) Passive cooling means you cool with only a heatsink, without a fan, eh ... Sure that wasn't a typo? The only fanless computer I've seen (recently, 'cos my 386 was passively cooled, too) is a tually 1200 with a HUGE Zalmann copper cooler. The only fan in that system was the fan of the PSU.

<i>Then again, that's just my opinion</i>
April 27, 2003 12:00:19 PM

I think the last passive CPU I had, involved one Socket 370 heatsink rated for somewhere around 1.2GHz CPUs. I took the fan off this, and put it on a Pentium MMX 200MHz. It still functions to this day, with no crashes.

That was probably the best thing I ever experienced....a fanless Pentium computer! :redface:

<font color=orange><b>Some people don't realise that a mere two hours backing up their data is far quicker than redoing all the work again!</b></font color=orange><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by basmic on 04/27/03 01:02 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
April 27, 2003 2:29:24 PM

what happens in the summer time and where abouts do you live? if you live where it's hot all the time your where it's seasonal or where it's cold. that makes a huge difference.

Life is irrelivent and irrational.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
April 27, 2003 3:04:05 PM

Quote:

weird how your main rig is an Intel. any reasons why?

At the time I purchased my P4, Intel was ahead of AMD in the game. They had the P4 2.26GHz, 2.4Ghz and 2.53GHz, while AMD was still stuck at 2200+ with a Palamino core, IIRC. The best AMD processor didn't overclock very well, while the 533MHz FSB P4s overclocked very well and performed very well too. I always upgrade or purchase a new system every summer, but I'm not going to this summer because there's just not a big enough difference between my current system (which is running at 2.7GHz) and a 3.0GHz P4 with HT and an 800MHz for me to justify the upgrade even if I overclocked the 3GHz P4. This year, my upgrade will be limited to another 512MB RDRAM and a DVD burner. The summer after that I'll be heading off to university, and I'll be spending ~ $4000 - $5000 on a top of the line WiFi enabled laptop.

Intelligence is not merely the wealth of knowledge but the sum of perception, wisdom, and knowledge.
April 27, 2003 3:49:53 PM

thats cool though. I got the sony dvd - the du500ax model. Awsome burner. has 8MB cache and it never goes under 97% for the buffer.

i'm stuck at 2ghz right now. the 100mhz fsb and the 2ghz cpu isn't cutting it for me. so i'm gonna upgrade to the 3ghz. 389 seems like a good price to double your video encoding performance and even more with 3d rendering.

well have fun with the dvd burner. get the sony one. i have had lots of fun with it. it comes with sonic my dvd and it's a fun program. definitly not profesional though but it's cool to play with it.

Life is irrelivent and irrational.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>
April 27, 2003 5:38:08 PM

Quote:
WTF???? You MUST explain me how you do that

By not having the thermister in proper contact with the back of the chip.



--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
April 28, 2003 3:14:16 AM

Man..don't you guys have A/C in oyur house? Cripes..if the temperature in your house is fluctuateing that much with the seasons you might need to start figureing out WHY.

I live in florida..but its always a nice 75 in my house. So what do I care if its a 100 degrees outside? LoL

Anyway, I personally favor AMD's, simply because thats all I'v used. AMD's can be cooled now with a good Heatsink and Fan. As long as you do your research and buy a thoroughbred and nOT a palomino or T-bird it should run fine. Anyone who does have problems with them...is doing something wrong. My Durons never given me a problem. Can't wait to get a 2100 and Ti4200 to run some better games.

I'd say..get a 2100..and if you don't feel like you can put together a system that will run stably, find someone who knows what hes doing with AMD's. The only reason I don't like P4's are that they are expensive. Their performance per dollar ratio sucks. They run a lil cooler, but a good HSF counters that fine.
April 28, 2003 3:18:15 AM

Umm...not everyone on earth has central air conditioning in their houses, dude. In fact, I'll wager about 80% of people don't. Just thought I'd point that out, since you seem shocked that temperatures inside someone's house might actually fluctuate beyond the comfortable 70-75 range.



<font color=green>The Netherlands is where you go when you're too good for heaven.</font color=green> :tongue:
April 28, 2003 5:14:12 AM

Teq, I don't doubt your knowledge nor your experience, but I think you're missing a minor detail in your arguements. From what I've gathered from your posts, you seem to be a computer reseller of some sort. The computers you service are not used by you. You have no idea how John Doe uses his computers after it is in his hands. There are people, for whatever reason, that leave put their computers in inefficient spots. I knew someone who had their computer near the radiator, not to smart. There are to many variables that you can't figure out once it is in another person's house. What I'm trying to say is I believe AMD is just as stable as an Intel system if you set it up properly. I have a palamino 1700 with some cheap aluminum HSF and its been running for over a year without any processor related issues. My Intel piii 933 has been running without any processor issues for about two years. Your AMD related issues are probably due more to ignorance then to stability issues of the chip itself.
April 28, 2003 5:46:36 AM

I also consider a laptop for school as does we have are old celeron 400 mghz on win XP.

Good to see you around.

[-peep-] french
April 28, 2003 6:03:22 AM

Quote:
From what I've gathered from your posts, you seem to be a computer reseller of some sort. The computers you service are not used by you. You have no idea how John Doe uses his computers after it is in his hands.

In a normal retail situation, you're right. I'd have no idea whatsoever what happens to a computer once I sell it. But I don't do business that way. I personally build every computer my partner sells. Every machine goes out the door with a 2 year, pre-paid on-site service contract. We deliver, connect and train. I visit every machine twice a year, check it over, clean it and make sure the customer is happy. And, since it's already paid for, most of my customers call me right away when there's even a small a problem. So, I do get to see a lot more of what goes on in the field than most box shufflers do.

(This by the way is similar to the way Copiers, Cash Registers and other business equipment is sold and maintained... it's nothing unusual in a business environment.)


Quote:
What I'm trying to say is I believe AMD is just as stable as an Intel system if you set it up properly. I have a palamino 1700 with some cheap aluminum HSF and its been running for over a year without any processor related issues. My Intel piii 933 has been running without any processor issues for about two years.

Tell me something... how often do you open up your computer or fiddle with it in some way or another? For example, when's the last time you added or removed a board or changed something to fix a minor issue? If you are like most enthusiasts, you are constantly fussing with your favorite toy... which means that thing is in a state of constant technical attention and even the tinyest issue gets taken care of in minutes....

Well, it just doesn't work that way in the real world. Most of the computers I care for are not opened by anyone but me, and since I only do inspections every 6 months that means that computer has to run perfectly for 6 months without the covers coming off or anyone poking around to handle minor issues. Frankly, AMD just doesn't cut it in that market the way Intel does.

For example: I have a 1ghz Celeron box sitting over in our workspace that's been running a file and chat server for our customers for about a year... without even once being rebooted during that whole time. I've yet to see AMD even get close to that.

Quote:
Your AMD related issues are probably due more to ignorance then to stability issues of the chip itself.

As I explained in another message the problem was, in part, related to the machines giving me trouble being roughly handled by a cleaning company who've now been replaced. They were dropping the fronts of the machines about 1/2" every night when they dusted under them and the cumulative effects of being banged around was at least 1/2 of the problem. The other half was clearly a combination of the mounting mechanisms AMD uses to secure their heatsinks and the tops of the CPUs themselves not being truly flat. On exacerbated the other... and I had to make a decision based on what I had before me.

But lets be real... AMD had the problem. None of the Intel boxes did.

Does that mean I don't like AMD or that I'm some kind of Intel fan... <b>hell no</b>. It meant I had a problem that needed to be dealt with. I chose to discuss it here because I thought it might be helpful to other techs and users who might run into the same thing. This is part of the technical world most home users and salesmakers never see... problems are discussed, solutions are traded... progress is made. It doesn't mean we are incompetent or don't like the product... it simply means we are doing our jobs.

Tell me... If a car mechanic tells you there has been a problem with the water pumps on Globmobiles are you going to blow up in his face and claim he's incompetent just because you own a Globmobile? Of course not... he's a mechanic you expect him to know about this stuff and you expect him to know how to fix it... don't you? Yet when it's your pet computer, suddenly it's a personal issue, like I've insulted you... Why is that? Do you really have such a powerful emotional investment in a contraption of plastic and metal that you think your honour is at stake if <i>someone else's</i> computer has a problem?

Methinks that ain't exactly healthy...





--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
April 28, 2003 1:30:43 PM

In the eternal Intel/AMD debate, I've found that it falls down to this:

A properly-configured AMD system has virtually identical stability to a P4 in all conditions from best case (which is where most people who have positive AMD experiences are at) to worst case (which is where people who are so dumb that they probably shouldn't even own a computer are at).

However, in the end you have to spend enough extra on the AMD system to get this identical stability that the cost of the whole PC is identical to the P4 for the same level of performance. The flaw is that with this AMD system you are now without a CPU warantee, where as the retail Intel CPU is still covered for years ahead.

Look at it like a car: Intel is the model that is factory-equipped with all of the bells and whistles that ensure safety and a smooth ride for years to come. Not everyone wants or needs them <i>all</i>, but that's the only way that it is sold.

AMD is the model that doesn't come with any of these features initially. Because of that there is a lower cost. And if you want those additional features, almost all of them can be added... for a price that will bring it right up to the same cost as the Intel model.

So in the end Intel makes more sense for business use where cost isn't an issue but stability under any kind of punishment is. AMD makse more sense for the enthusiast, where cost is the main issue and you are your own tech support, so <i>should</i> anything go wrong (which may or may not happen) you are right there to fix the problem.

What I think would be an excellent comparison (but one which I've never seen done) is to compare the rates of failure between Intel and AMD for big server racks that are on and crunching 24/7.

<font color=blue><pre>I'm proud to be an American,
who served my country in the US Air Force,
to protect the rights of my fellow Americans,
to hold protests against others like me.</pre><p></font color=blue>
April 28, 2003 1:39:31 PM

Oh, and as for Celeron vs P4: Latest P4 is about to be 800MHz FSB with 512KB L2 cache. Latest Celeron is about to be 400MHz FSB with 128KB L2 cache. For half the FSB and a quarter of the cache, I just can't see how the Celeron is even justifiable by Intel anymore. It was bad enough when it was NorthwoodB vs. Celeron, but now NorthwoodC vs. Celeron? Sheesh! And soon it will be Prescott vs. Celeron? Yikes!

Celeron = Suckeron. My Celeron 500MHz system at home bites compared to a P3 500MHz. Since the Celeron based on the P4 has been introduced it has only gotten worse, not better. The Wilty (Willamette based Celeron) should die the death that it deserved from the very beginning.

For Wilty's performance you could easily configure an AMD system that is faster and has all of the optional extras for an ensured stability, both for the same cost.

So there really is no justifiable excuse for Wilty's existence.

<font color=blue><pre>I'm proud to be an American,
who served my country in the US Air Force,
to protect the rights of my fellow Americans,
to hold protests against others like me.</pre><p></font color=blue>
April 28, 2003 3:10:36 PM

Calm down, I think you took my post a little bit to seriously. I didn't take any of your posts as "insults" nor am I calling you a fanboy of any sort. I was just pointing out a point that you might have missed. Sometimes the home enviornment is different from the business enviornment. Plus I have no idea how you operate a business. Its a discussion board and I was just pointing out something that you MAY have missed since. Why are you replying like I've just insulted your honor. Besides its just a single post in some computer forum. If you don't like or agree with it just skip it, no need to lose your temper over it. "Methinks that ain't exactly healthy..."

Back to the original debate, a P4 is well worth the extra money that you are going to spend if you plan to do something than can use the extra power. If all you plan to really do is surf the internet, email, and use microsoft office, then its a waste of money.
April 28, 2003 4:02:24 PM

Quote:
So in the end Intel makes more sense for business use where cost isn't an issue but stability under any kind of punishment is. AMD makse more sense for the enthusiast, where cost is the main issue and you are your own tech support, so should anything go wrong (which may or may not happen) you are right there to fix the problem.

Exactly.

After my experiences over the winter, I sell Intel for business but I still use AMD for personal use.

I just don't get why people have such a problem with that.





--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
April 28, 2003 4:39:33 PM

Saying Intel for business and AMD for home use is to general. AMD can be used reliably on the business side. IF you realize there are two sides to business. The client and the server side. On the client side, Compaq offers AMD systems with the nforce chipset. A highly reliable chipset and has very little problems with it. On the server side AMD does not throttle, it will just shut off. If you do that to a server you will corupt a database. So it doesn't make sense to use AMD's in servers but make perfect sense to use them in client machines. I'm working at a company that is upgrading there computers. They have 5000 clients. Most of those are old HP computers. They are upgrading to Compaq Evo desktops. The AMD solution offers more than enough computing power for the business and keeps each computer at just below $500. So you can't really say AMD has no place in the business world. They just don't have very much room in a 0% tolerance server.

Je bend de mest onverschillige hasj dealende hoer die ik ooit heb ontmoet.
April 28, 2003 5:35:12 PM

Quote:
On the client side, Compaq offers AMD systems with the nforce chipset. A highly reliable chipset and has very little problems with it.

Hate to break this to you... but I think you'd better take a look at these forums and those on other servers... Look for messages about motherboards that use the NForce chipsets and see what people are saying about them. At one time, half the messages in the THG Motherboards and Chipsets forum were about the A7N8X motherboard which is based on NForce2. The same can be seen on other BBSs as well and believe me, those people ain't bragging! So now everyone's flipping over to NForce2 from other companies and the messages are beginning to show up..."I just got this board and it won't boot", "I can't get this to work", "I can't get that to work"...

I'll spare you my opinion of Compaq in general ... I used to work for a company that was planning to sell them. When they found they were non-standard designes and checked into how much parts and service would cost and realized there were certain items they could only get from Compaq at about double the common market price the entire plan went right out the window. HP is no better... and now HP owns Compaq.

If your company is planning a 5000 machine purchase of Compaq/AMD/NForce machines they are in for one wild ride.


--->It ain't better if it don't work<---
April 28, 2003 5:49:43 PM

I think the final conclusion of Intel based chips is that it can sustain more "abuse". Which is a good thing if your a retailer because there are a lot of dumb people out there. But I think its ok the recommend AMD to people In this board because if you're posting, you probably have some knowledge of computers.

Its like stick shift and automatic transmission. Stick shift version cars are(generally) cheaper and you can control it better(usually), but if you don't know how to work it, your car will be in the auto shop every other week. Automatic transmission is press and go, no need to fiddle with the clutch and the stick, but of course the downside is its more expensive, etc.
April 28, 2003 6:25:53 PM

That's your opinion. I've had 3 years of personal experience with compaq to know their reliablity. You just have to know which line to buy. The consumer line sucks. The business line is rock solid. This isn't my first roll out with compaq. I've done computer migrations with Utilitcorp Unite, Shook, Hardy, and Bacon, and Shawnee Mission Medical center. All were large rollouts ie.. 3k + All used compaqs, all have been satisfied.

Je bend de mest onverschillige hasj dealende hoer die ik ooit heb ontmoet.
April 28, 2003 6:56:41 PM

Yahiko, just a little off topic, but your sig contains two mistakes:

Je benT de meEst onverschillige hasj dealende hoer die ik ooit heb ontmoet.

At least, that's how we in Belgium here write this. Though I never wrote that before, actually ... Why do you have this little obscure Dutch sentence as your signature?

Secondly, I have to agree about Compaq, though my experience with such machines is limited in number: I own one Compaq, and indeed, it is a very stable machine (and not a consumer-product), and also very well built. I enjoy taking it apart every time, really! (Though I do that not very often, just to get the dust out or to upgrade something)

Groetjes!

Bikeman

<i>Then again, that's just my opinion</i><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by bikeman on 04/28/03 08:58 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
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