Relationships

Ok, this is gonna be a first for this section. I think it is at least. I'm just afraid that I'm going to get all the Eden's out there (sorry Vic but you have zero experience) ranting and raving. Sure there's a theoretical part to this but I'm going to go for a practical discussion.

I was having a debate with a friend of mine about marraige and relationships. He maintains that he's never really seen a healthy marraige that lasted forever. He's now convinced that it's best to just have a relationship for a few years and move on. He doesn't want to ever get married.

As I reflect upon that conversation I come to realize that a lot of what he says is true. One of the most frustrating things about leaving my wife was knowing that even at the worst of times in our relationship it was better than a lot of my friends best times in theirs. That is their problem though, not mine. Nonetheless, how many of you know people that got married or are in long term relationships just because they:

a. Are tired of dating and want to settle down and start a family?
b. It financially makes sense?
c. They are too big of a pussy to break up?
d. Don't think they can get anything better?
e. Family pressure?

etc?

Could it be that all relationships, however great they may be, come to an end? I think we discussed this in that metaphysical conversation about the chemical processes involved in relationships.

a. Your body is full of chemicals which gives you that original high for about 1.5 yrs to 4 yrs
b. Your body craves more and more of these chemicals and eventually becomes used to them. Your body starts producing endorphins which replace the high with more of a secure attachment feeling or neutrality. Most divorces/break ups occur during this time due to the lack of that original high from the original set of dopamine, norepinephrine, and phenylethylamine "drugs".

Obviously there are environmental factors such as not seeing each other, being in an abusive relationship, financial problems, etc that affect the relationship as well.

Nonetheless there is a timeline that everyone follows. Some people go through these phases faster than others. The question remains though, can you have a healthy relationship that lasts your entire life?

The alternative is just to keep the status quo, not want to divorce due to kids, or essentially become room mates. Is this the way relationships are meant to be or should we be moving on to other people when the relationship "slows" down?

I understand that there are serious factors to consider outside of the relationship itself. Namely maintaining a family, not wanting to be lonely, financial security, social/family pressure, etc but most of these are social issues- rules of conduct or appearance set upon us by society. What about happiness though? Isn't it better to risk some lonliness than to stay in a weak relationship?

For those of you that have been married for a while, do you still have that original high? Do you remember when you could have sex 4+ times a day and still want more? Do you still set your alarm clock early so that you can have sex before going to work? Do you remember that euphoria? Do you remember those feelings of "firsts"? Is going out to dinner, the movies, the beach with your spouse still as awesome? Do you still do "crazy" things just to be with him/her? When was the last time you went skinny dipping or had sex in public? Do you prefer that feeling of security that you have now or do you prefer that original anxiety and excitement, or do you have something different going on?

I was shocked when I started going out with different women that I could have better sex with them than with my ex. How is that possible? How is it possible that I could swear my life away to this women when someone I, for all intensive purposes, barely know could make me feel better than she could? I know that some of you waited until marraige and have no other experience, but think about that for a second. How is it possible that I could have better sex with someone else than with my ex if she's the one I got married to? Granted that relationship didn't work out, but it took almost a decade to get to that point and it was a pretty good relationship at one point.

Don't think I'm shallow just refering to sex, but you can have a good conversation and be friends with a lot of people, but you can't have awesome sex with everyone you come across. Not that I've really tested that theory, or will. I'm just trying to make a basic point.

So here's a question. Is it better to do what society tells us to do - have a spouse, kids, house, or is it better to leave the relationship when it runs it's "course" and move on? Who would be happier, the person who has that one person or the person who moves on and has relationships that really don't last longer than the 4 years or so? Some of you are probably wondering how a 45 year old is supposed to go dating or worse yet a 60 year old, but I saw plenty in Thailand and they were having a damn good time. I ran across a relatively large amount of older men in Thailand who had terrible relationship stories. They were definitely enjoying the life with the women down there. Remember, that's a different society with different rules and they don't feel obligated to go through the wife, house, kids routine in the same way we westerners do. In Sweden I see a different social order as well since most people aren't getting married but are choosing to have a civil union instead.

In the USA divorce rates are sky high which should tell you something. I've never cheated on a woman but it seems to be that a lot of people do. You have to wonder why. In our country we call it cheating but in other countries it's just accepted. As a matter of fact most Thai men see women on the side. In many countries polygamy is still practiced. Social differences. I'm not going to judge here. I don't want to get into a sexist argument either here since this question pertains to both men and women.

In the end I understand that there is a large amount of bliss having someone you trust around you all the time, it feels damn good and secure. But does it feel better than moving on? I sure have seen an awful lot of disfunctional relationships and those that aren't I fear will become disfunctional before long. Is just maintaining the status quo good enough? Is that what we should be doing?

GOD BLESS AMERICA

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Your post is too long...

But- I think its all the hormones and feelings that make us want to settle down. Family pressure, sure that can push it.
The ideal marriage would be one where you still can have affairs with other women. )

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Reply to diesel23

Well, I don't think that your looking for input from me, the way things were worded.. I have some thoughts on the matter, but I will hold them to myself for a tad bit..... I would have some input, but I have to do some thinking on it first, I hope you understand..... [shrug]

Dazzle them with Brilliance, or Baffle them with BS! :wink:
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Reply to RCPilot

you sound very lost.

this is my boomstick!

Reply to jihiggs

I'm not actually, but he really is. Personally I'm more of the feeling that I just have to make sure certain things are met in a relationship before I settle down again. I was too young to know what I wanted or needed the first time around. I'm in no hurry this time. I'm pretty damn confident of myself now since I really learned a lot about myself so I'll date for a while and just see what crosses my path.

Either way I think he has a genuine point and it's something I've been thinking about since he's my friend and we talk about this. I think my divorce was the nail in the coffin since he never saw that coming and looked at my relationship as the only good one around. Then he broke up with his girlfriend and now he's obviously confused.

GOD BLESS AMERICA

Reply to dhlucke

I'm looking for any input. I don't know your personal situation but post whatever you want when you feel comfortable.

GOD BLESS AMERICA

Reply to dhlucke

Not at work much longer, but here's a start.

Well, for one thing, you seem to be looking for a universal answer to a question that doesn't really have one. Lots of this depends on the people themselves. And I do know of quite a few marriages that I'm pretty certain are very healthy and are lasting 'til death to us part.'

Quote :

I was shocked when I started going out with different women that I could have better sex with them than with my ex. How is that possible? How is it possible that I could swear my life away to this women when someone I, for all intensive purposes, barely know could make me feel better than she could?..... How is it possible that I could have better sex with someone else than with my ex if she's the one I got married to? Granted that relationship didn't work out, but it took almost a decade to get to that point and it was a pretty good relationship at one point.

No offense, but that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, and is fairly well answered by your "I was too young to know what I wanted or needed" revelation in one of the posts after that. How is it possible that you had better sex with someone than the ex-wife you yourself basically said you shouldn't have married? How is it not possible? Seems like she was the wrong woman at the wrong time and a decision based on flawed information. Seems perfectly plausible that you could find something better than that.

Who's that talk show host that recently got married? Star Jones or something like that? She "swore her life away" to the guy she married, but Hope (who is constantly reading about entertainment biz news) says the dude she married is queer as a three dollar bill. And if so, I'm pretty sure they could both find something better than that. Not much of an imagination stretch, there.

Anyway, my $.02 for now. Back later.

War Eagle 13-0!
"That was just instinct. Kind of like running from the cops." -- Marquis Weeks, TB, U. of Virginia

Reply to Auburn9698

I have no regrets about my ex though. So it's not like I should have not married her or not had a long term relationship with her. It's just that the relationship died. It ended. There wasn't anything bad, there wasn't anything we could really do, it just died after a certain amount of time.

I can come up with a bunch of things to do differently but that's 20/20 hindsight and none of us have the ability to use that ahead of time.

The response I expect to get is that we "should have worked on it, relationships require work". Well we did, and that didn't do the trick. So we moved on.

As far as getting something better? Of course I can. That much I realize now. What I'm wondering is if everyone can. There was no need for something better in the begining of that relationship, only the end.

GOD BLESS AMERICA

Reply to dhlucke

i hit CTRL+F and typed in "love"

didnt find anything.

So what about it then? Does it all come down to sex and good conversations? What does love mean to you? Is it a warm fuzzy feeling, the release of those chemicals, or is it truly cherishing someone and wanting to just be with them?

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Reply to phial

Is anyone going to even try answering my questions though? This really isn't about me specifically.

GOD BLESS AMERICA

Reply to dhlucke

It becomes more than you.... Your Son's, Daughters..... It's not perfect, but it's life... Some of you melts, when you see a Son or Daughter born.. I call it an Omen... A Omen to me is, once you see an Omen, everything you thought before goes out the window... From the Omen on, your never the same... Having Children is a Omen in life.. That's what it's about, after the lust has gone, your Family, your Heritage....

Dazzle them with Brilliance, or Baffle them with BS! :wink:
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Reply to RCPilot

Yes those are some of the things that I look forward to.. you and the person you love, your soulmate, raising and watching your children grow together ...making sacrifices, helping eachother through the hard times and laughing together in the good times.

How come you dont mention your wife though?
[edit: oops your wife is part of your family]

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<A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">please dont click here! </A>Edited by phial on 01/13/05 05:44 PM.

Reply to phial

Well, I didn't want to bring in my 35 years, this April of marriage... I was hoping not to use a unfair hammer like that, because of my commitment... [shrug]

Dazzle them with Brilliance, or Baffle them with BS! :wink:
{FMCD}

Reply to RCPilot

an unfair hammer? I dont quite get what you mean. Isnt it exactly what Daniel is asking about?

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Reply to phial

Sounds like you already have your own answers prepared. But, they'll depend, per person, though.

War Eagle 13-0!
"That was just instinct. Kind of like running from the cops." -- Marquis Weeks, TB, U. of Virginia

Reply to Auburn9698

Quote :

Could it be that all relationships, however great they may be, come to an end?

No. Relationships can dwell on long after the divorce or even a breakup.

Quote :

Your body is full of chemicals which gives you that original high for about 1.5 yrs to 4 yrs/Your body craves more and more of these chemicals and eventually becomes used to them. Your body starts producing endorphins which replace the high with more of a secure attachment feeling or neutrality. Most divorces/break ups occur during this time due to the lack of that original high from the original set of dopamine, norepinephrine, and phenylethylamine "drugs".

i kinda agree with this though
i have been with steph for almost 6 years now. after the "newlywedness" wears off i guess you become so attached to that person on a level that you rely on them more than you really think. So the security does come into play here

Quote :

can you have a healthy relationship that lasts your entire life?

Yes you can, It just takes full commitment and effort by both parties or it will fail.

Quote :

The alternative is just to keep the status quo, not want to divorce due to kids, or essentially become room mates. Is this the way relationships are meant to be or should we be moving on to other people when the relationship "slows" down?

i dont understand how a relationship could or should slow down, granted they do, but it is far beyond me i guess. even when steph and i were at each others throats, it never slow down; we were at each other because we loved each other and it hurt to find out how much we needed each other. I feel that if you realize this then you can see that there would be no logical reason to "move on"

Quote :

What about happiness though? Isn't it better to risk some lonliness than to stay in a weak relationship?

if you arent happy with a relationship, the first person you should look at is yourself; examine youre dailt routines and how you react to your partner. if you find that you are married and are unwilling to change for them something is wrong. now if it becomes a factor where the other person is at fault for the crumbling relationship, then other ways should be sought to fix the relationship. if both parties arent willing to compromise then problems will arise and eventual breakdown will occur. if you or your partner arent willing to compromise then lonliness is what you should face.

Quote :

do you still have that original high? Do you remember when you could have sex 4+ times a day and still want more? Do you still set your alarm clock early so that you can have sex before going to work? Do you remember that euphoria? Do you remember those feelings of "firsts"? Is going out to dinner, the movies, the beach with your spouse still as awesome? Do you still do "crazy" things just to be with him/her? When was the last time you went skinny dipping or had sex in public? Do you prefer that feeling of security that you have now or do you prefer that original anxiety and excitement, or do you have something different going on?

as I stated earlier, no I dont think I get the high from being with her; I kinda get a high that she is still with me, ya understand? and no :frown: we dont have sex that often anymore(via long distances or whateva) but when we do it just reassures that high for me. we dont do crazy sh|t like sex in public or anything like that anymore, but that is kinda because we both have grown up alittle and our relationship is alot more mature as well, we have different responibilities than just boning in a pool or whatever; we have reallife responsibilities that requires our relationship to be real to life as well. and i love the fact of security alot more than the original high.

Quote :

How is that possible? How is it possible that I could swear my life away to this women when someone I, for all intensive purposes, barely know could make me feel better than she could? I know that some of you waited until marraige and have no other experience, but think about that for a second. How is it possible that I could have better sex with someone else than with my ex if she's the one I got married to?

i believe this is because(not certain but just my interpretation) people always live for the moment and that moment to them seems to be the best. i dont really know how to explain it a little better.

Quote :

Is it better to do what society tells us to do - have a spouse, kids, house, or is it better to leave the relationship when it runs it's "course" and move on? Who would be happier, the person who has that one person or the person who moves on and has relationships that really don't last longer than the 4 years or so?

i believe that is really up to the individual person. I was quite uncomfortable with multiple partners when I was single, too much hassle. every few months having to learn new shi+ about a person what they like, what they dont like, having to adapt your ways minutely to fit into theirs. petty arguments and etc. etc. i guess if someone is more comfortable with that kinda lifestyle they would like it better, personally, im content with what i have.

hope this helps you see my point of view at least.

"Never underestimate the predictability of Stupidity."
<A HREF="http://www.cameronwilliamson.com" target="_new">-={Psychotic Sociopath.}=-</A>
R.I.P. O.D.B.

Reply to mrface

35 years, isn't a uphill battle & something hard to compare to DH????? I have some things that I did young in life. I was married at 19 & I'm still married to that Woman.. So my views, other than about regular married stuff, don't really have a bering here...

Dazzle them with Brilliance, or Baffle them with BS! :wink:
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Reply to RCPilot

Sometimes you find that someone and sometimes you don't.
___It dosen't mean that you did not care for and love this person. We all love many people for many different reasons in our life.

___"Another Brick In The Wall". We are a sum of our life experiences.

__I found that someone finally. My second wife. We have been together 15 years. 16 in May. And yes I see myself growing old and living my life to the end with her.(Glad you have Wingding over there!!) :smile:

I aint signing nothing!!!

Reply to Rick_Criswell

Find Jesus and you will find true love.

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Reply to ksoth

lol

"Never underestimate the predictability of Stupidity."
<A HREF="http://www.cameronwilliamson.com" target="_new">-={Psychotic Sociopath.}=-</A>
R.I.P. O.D.B.

Reply to mrface

I live much closer to you now so don't make me come over there and kick your ass!

GOD BLESS AMERICA

Reply to dhlucke

Find Jesus and you will no longer desire to live a violent life.

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"Like what?"
"Like, you know, Slurpees and stuff."
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Reply to ksoth

If I find him I'm gonna kick his ass!

GOD BLESS AMERICA

Reply to dhlucke

did i answer your questions enough? or do you care?

"Never underestimate the predictability of Stupidity."
<A HREF="http://www.cameronwilliamson.com" target="_new">-={Psychotic Sociopath.}=-</A>
R.I.P. O.D.B.

Reply to mrface

Ahh boo, don't be angry.

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"Like what?"
"Like, you know, Slurpees and stuff."
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Reply to ksoth

I was just waiting a bit. I'm kinda drugged up at the moment from this damn cold and medicine. I think I'm done for the day.

GOD BLESS AMERICA

Reply to dhlucke

ahh ok i thought it was funny i went to the trouble of writing it after you were whinging about noone answering you, lmao.

"Never underestimate the predictability of Stupidity."
<A HREF="http://www.cameronwilliamson.com" target="_new">-={Psychotic Sociopath.}=-</A>
R.I.P. O.D.B.

Reply to mrface

I'm really not feeling well. I'm gonna just go lay down and watch TV. I really need to go to work tommorrow.

GOD BLESS AMERICA

Reply to dhlucke

hope you feel better man,

ill pray for you.

"Never underestimate the predictability of Stupidity."
<A HREF="http://www.cameronwilliamson.com" target="_new">-={Psychotic Sociopath.}=-</A>
R.I.P. O.D.B.

Reply to mrface

Why couldn't you have posted this a year ago, I'd of had a field day with it, but I promised you, I wouldn't directly attack you anymore, this is like finding an ammo dump in the enemys camp, I just hope someone else can see the potential here, but its not going to be me! Have a nice thread! Ryan :smile:

I'm 4ryan6 ><> and I approved this message!
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Reply to 4ryan6

your so mean, sheesh!

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Reply to phial

The desire to have relationships or "life partners" is the product of vestigal survival instincts. Human beings are one of very few mammals who bear young who are utterly helpless when born, and stay that way for years. There is no way children in a primordial society would have survived without the "love" instinct that drives humans to protect their children. The only two qualities that human beings have that have allowed us to survive against the thousands of more-powerful predators in this world are our social nature and our collective intellect. Part of our social nature is that parents stick to their young and protect them until they're old enough to kill their own dinosaurs and find their own mates.

For the species to survive, the young had to be vigorously protected. The best way to protect the young is for adults to form strong emotional bonds with each other upon mating, and then to pass that same emotional bond to their children.

Within most (not all) species' the male impregnates the female, and then takes off, leaving the female to rear the young. However, from a survival standpoint, this was not practical for humans.

Makes sense to me that the desire to "mate-for-life" is instinctive and therefore very strong. By bonding the parents together, it creates the core unit of our social fabric--the man+woman+children family. The chances of survival are much better within that framework.

Nowadays, survival is much easier, but we still have the old survival instincts. However, now we're at a point where our intellect clashes with our instinct. Our mind says, "marriage isn't necessary," but our instinct says, "find a mate, bear children." We no longer worry about natural predators, and we can take our children to daycare for someone else to raise. The criteria for survival in this society are secular in nature, and in many ways, having a family makes you less surviveable, especially economically. So...we don't need to settle down and have families any more...but we still want sex. We still want sex, but other than the fact that it feels really good, there is no real purpose behind it if not to bear offspring. So it becomes an emotionally fruitless act.

I think that's where a lot of the psychological and emotional conflicts arise. It's a compulsion we can't really rationalize.

Edited by Twitch on 01/14/05 01:13 AM.

Reply to Twitch

I'm trying to be nicer OK!

I'm 4ryan6 ><> and I approved this message!
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Reply to 4ryan6

Hehhee, I kinda saw what you meant Ryan, but I understand that you wouldn't wanna poke here. :wink:

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Reply to eden

Would you theorize that people looking for casual sex aren't in the end, happy, or "satisfied" in their life, but deny it?

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Reply to eden

I guess the best way for me to put it is that I don't know that there's really any such thing as "casual sex," or if there is, it's much more rare than people think. In my experience, if two people are in a "casual" sexual relationship, you can bet good money that one of the two people isn't nearly as "casual" about it as the other.

I've known a lot of people--mostly women, though I've known quite a few men like this too--who are really good at deceiving themselves.

Edited by Twitch on 01/14/05 01:41 AM.

Reply to Twitch

BTW in my eyes, I wouldn't want sex if I didn't feel love. That's why I abstain in all ways from any casual sex. I just know, and based on friends' experiences, that it feels MUCH better.

While DH perceives that as false with the experience he had with that lady, we can also theorize he just wasn't with the true soul mate all along. It could also be because over the years sex becomes very secondary.

I agree though, I mean, at first it is something many look into, since often sex is regarded as healthy to a relationship. I just don't believe that "no sex in a relationship" crap. I feel it is within us, and to deny it will cause more trouble than good. From the Church scandals to Michael Jackson (lord knows), to so much more things. I'm not saying they all happened due to denying sex, but I'm sure it had that element in it.

For someone like me, my situation makes it even more hard, being picky and all, and yet reaching sex without love would be suicidal for me, and at the same time, I really do need it. But I also need love inside. It's the only way I may get through what has happened to me last year. Hard to live with a disorder, really, and when you're told there might be a way to stop it and it ends up being love and sex together, it makes it all the more hard. Especially when you start knowing who I am, then you see where I come from.

Anyways, I digress. I know I don't have much to input here, having no experience, but I do learn from yall and definitely feel like sharing my own views, as limited as they may be to this topic.

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Reply to eden

Quote :

I guess the best way for me to put it is that I don't know that there's really any such thing as "casual sex," or if there is, it's much more rare than people think. In my experience, if two people are in a "casual" sexual relationship, you can bet good money that one of the two people isn't nearly as "casual" about it as the other.

I've known a lot of people--mostly women, though I've known quite a few men like this too--who are really good at deceiving themselves.

I guess I should've put casual sex as in promiscuity. (from picking up prostitutes to the "I got drunk and woke up with a chick and left her while she still slept and we never saw each other again!" statement)

So I reiterate my question!

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Reply to eden

Quote :

hope you feel better man,

ill pray for you.

I'm sure you meant it, but I'm also sure you wanted to tease him with that. :smile:

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Reply to eden

Great post buddy but it so factual that it drains the emotion right out of the term Love.

Of course I've done that for myself pretty much allready!

!#&$ :eek: ---It's not heavy,...it's my computer

Reply to russell

Eden, you've never had sex nor love so this is moot. Please don't side track the thread. That's all I ask.

GOD BLESS AMERICA

Reply to dhlucke

RC I think Phial was just saying that you are a good example as to what it's all about. I agree with him too, you should set your marriage as an example of what longstanding love is.

If I were to ask you this, (and feel free to not answer it if you feel it is too private for you) would you answer? : Do you still love your wife?

I remember you saying you struggled for the first decade trying to understand where it's going, and how you later understood it all. I could be wrong and have not remembered it right, but I'm curious as to what you feel now. (all wifey jokes aside, as I know love is in there too! :wink: )

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Reply to eden

Takes the emotion out of it? No way! That's like saying that understanding survival instinct makes music irrelevant. I mean, what purpose does music serve other than to give us enjoyment? Right? Understanding what an orgasm is doesn't make it any less enjoyable, does it?

It's one of those things that can only be understood intuitively...it really can't be conveyed properly in words.

I didn't want to make it sound like "love" is the function of some robotic behavioral code, because I think that is a gross oversimplification. But I do think that it has evolved from its original purpose. Like anything else, the more human beings can define and understand it, the more elusive and complex it becomes.

Edited by Twitch on 01/14/05 01:57 AM.

Reply to Twitch

BTW perhaps Phial was right when he questioned you. I know you dismissed his post, but perhaps it's true, maybe you're trying to only look at the sex part. Just pointing something out.

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Reply to eden

out of all the ppl, u got that wow.

"Never underestimate the predictability of Stupidity."
<A HREF="http://www.cameronwilliamson.com" target="_new">-={Psychotic Sociopath.}=-</A>
R.I.P. O.D.B.

Reply to mrface

BTW, regarding your topic, when you first asked about length of relationships, I was about to agree to you but in a philosophical sort of way, until I found out you looked at the first 4-5 years with the more sexual aspect of it.

I was looking at it as "if we lived up to 1000 years (kinda like Phial's thread), would we really choose to stay with the same person or even last that long with him or her?".

Heck, in a more metaphysical way for the believers, does that extend beyond death and for a long time? (I am afraid to use the word eternity, it feels too much deep)

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Reply to eden

Just poking fun..your info was right on and I fully understand what you mean about understanding it dosn't take the fun out..as matter of fact therein lies a large part of relationship problems, not understanding all the changes that are taking place.....me victim of that

!#&$ :eek: ---It's not heavy,...it's my computer

Reply to russell

I can be known to catch a few things. :wink:

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Reply to eden

I won't respect that, sorry.

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Reply to eden

Quote :

I didn't want to make it sound like "love" is the function of some robotic behavioral code, because I think that is a gross oversimplification.

Looking at anything from the causality point of view can make it sound robotic.

I prefer to no longer observe things that way, or try not to.

Quote :

But I do think that it has evolved from its original purpose. Like anything else, the more human beings can define and understand it, the more elusive and complex it becomes.

I think many things seem simple from the conceptual point of view. Once you explore it, it becomes complex, yeah. I can see having children one way, then I can one day have some, and see it as much more complex than my first view of it. Notice I don't "share" anything, due to my lack of experience, so I just suggest possibilities without making them claims.

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Reply to eden

Forum Old Man/Woman's Club : Other - Relationships

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Forum Old Man/Woman's Club : Other - Relationships

Please mind