*TECH* Fish Tales flipper flutter

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I have been trying to diagnose a problem with my Fish tales left
flipper. It flutters whenever I hit the left flipper button. It'll fire
off twice in a row and not hold in the up position.

I have removed the coil and checked the windings. They don't appear to
be broken, but I left the paper on so I didn't look under there, just
on the lugs. I removed all the wires and resoldered them on along with
the diodes. So I guess that leaves me with the transistor on the
fliptronics II board. However I tested all the TIP102 transistors and
they read fine (between .4 and .6 and .002 on the center pin). One
didn't give a reading at first (second or third one in from the left),
but then it was fine the next two passes through with a DMM.

I'm not sure what to do next. Just order a new Coil? I am trying to fix
this before a party on Monday and I'm pretty sure there are no parts
suppliers in the San Fernando Valley. =/


Also, I did switch the left side and right side flipper boards and the
problem remained on the left side.

Any ideas? Thanks



>From Marvins site:

When activated, doesn't hold up (the flipper "flutters"). This means
the hold TIP102 transistor for that flipper is bad, or the hold winding
on the coil itself is broken. The hold winding on the coil is the thin
wire. If it is broken, usually the wire has broken away from one of the
solder lugs (one outside lug should have both the thick and thin wire
attached to it). Test the coil first (see above) before replacing the
transistor. Check the Fliptronics hold circuit fuse. If flipper is
still fluttering, swap the right and left flipper opto boards and see
if the problem changes (indicating a bad cabinet switch flipper opto).

-CF

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

BTW, which transistor on the Fliptronics II board would control the
hold for the left flipper?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Q9 controls hold for the lower left flipper.

On 30 Jun 2005 23:01:10 -0700, citznfish@gmail.com wrote:

>BTW, which transistor on the Fliptronics II board would control the
>hold for the left flipper?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

the EOS seems to be making good contact and I did clean it. The opto
boards are OK, I had switched them and the problem remained with that
flipper. So I'm thinking I either missed something on the coil or the
transistor is bad under load. Could I be missing something else here?

The lugs on teh coil did seem to have the correct windings. Could a bad
diode on the coil cause an issue like this? I wouldn't think so, but I
don't have years of experience at this.

-CF

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Thank you. I might just try replacing it and seeing what happens.

-CF

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Did you check the opto behind the flipper button?
Clean it with alcohol and see if the bracket not needs adjustment.
When you change sides with those two little boards, does the problem move to
the other side (if so then the coil is oke)
Also clean the EOS contacts, and adjust them

--
Jelle Nelemans - The Netherlands
________________________________
Speak*Easy-4 (1982)
Crea*ture ft Bl*ack Lag*oon(1992)
BS Drac*ula(1993)
W*H2O(1993)
S.T:T.N.G.(1993)
Twi*light Zo*ne(1993)
Pin-site : http://home.wanadoo.nl/jellen/
________________________________
..


<citznfish@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1120197256.437042.260780@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I have been trying to diagnose a problem with my Fish tales left
> flipper. It flutters whenever I hit the left flipper button. It'll fire
> off twice in a row and not hold in the up position.
>
> I have removed the coil and checked the windings. They don't appear to
> be broken, but I left the paper on so I didn't look under there, just
> on the lugs. I removed all the wires and resoldered them on along with
> the diodes. So I guess that leaves me with the transistor on the
> fliptronics II board. However I tested all the TIP102 transistors and
> they read fine (between .4 and .6 and .002 on the center pin). One
> didn't give a reading at first (second or third one in from the left),
> but then it was fine the next two passes through with a DMM.
>
> I'm not sure what to do next. Just order a new Coil? I am trying to fix
> this before a party on Monday and I'm pretty sure there are no parts
> suppliers in the San Fernando Valley. =/
>
>
> Also, I did switch the left side and right side flipper boards and the
> problem remained on the left side.
>
> Any ideas? Thanks
>
>
>
>>From Marvins site:
>
> When activated, doesn't hold up (the flipper "flutters"). This means
> the hold TIP102 transistor for that flipper is bad, or the hold winding
> on the coil itself is broken. The hold winding on the coil is the thin
> wire. If it is broken, usually the wire has broken away from one of the
> solder lugs (one outside lug should have both the thick and thin wire
> attached to it). Test the coil first (see above) before replacing the
> transistor. Check the Fliptronics hold circuit fuse. If flipper is
> still fluttering, swap the right and left flipper opto boards and see
> if the problem changes (indicating a bad cabinet switch flipper opto).
>
> -CF
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

You could do a resistance check of the hold winding. Center lug to thin
wire lug. Compare to the right flipper, much higher resistance = broken
winding.

Bob Stemmler

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I agree with Ray here. This problem is generally a coil issue. One
easy thing to do instead of swapping the coils is to take a small
screwdriver or something and gently wiggle the hold winding (small
gauge wire) on the coil where it attaches to the lug and where it
enters the coil wrapper. I would bet that the hold winding is broken
at one of those places. If it's broken at the lug, you can re-solder
it. If it's broken near the wrapper, sometimes, you can pull enough
out to re-solder it to the lug, but I would usually replace the coil in
that case.


Ray Johnson - Action Pinball wrote:
> A bad diode will do one of two things:
>
> If shorted: You'll blow a fuse every time you hit the flipper button.
> If open (or missing): Continued use can damage the driver transistor on the
> Fliptronics board that controls the corresponding winding in the coil.
> Usually the transistor will short out, in which case power will continue to
> run through the coil. This will either blow the fuse (if it's running the
> power winding), or may melt down the coil (if running the hold winding). Or
> the transistor can open up, in which case it won't let the flipper work (if
> it runs the power winding) or won't let the flipper stay up (if it runs the
> hold winding).
>
> Most likely you've just got an open coil winding (bad coil)- this is the
> case 99.9% of the time. I don't think I've ever replaced a hold winding
> transistor for a coil in all my days, so very unlikely your problem is a
> transistor. Not impossible, but unlikely.
>
> Ray J.
> --
> Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
> Salt Lake City, Utah USA
> Web: www.actionpinball.com
>
> We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
>
>
>
> <citznfish@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1120235317.504327.206260@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > the EOS seems to be making good contact and I did clean it. The opto
> > boards are OK, I had switched them and the problem remained with that
> > flipper. So I'm thinking I either missed something on the coil or the
> > transistor is bad under load. Could I be missing something else here?
> >
> > The lugs on teh coil did seem to have the correct windings. Could a bad
> > diode on the coil cause an issue like this? I wouldn't think so, but I
> > don't have years of experience at this.
> >
> > -CF
> >

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Swap the flipper coils from left to right- that will quickly tell you if you
have a coil problem or a Fliptronics board problem.

We have new coils in stock- we're in Salt Lake City, Utah and Priority Mail
has been VERY quick lately, so if ordered today, very likely you'd have it
Monday- er, Monday is a holiday (4th of July)- so Tuesday. Or we can
overnight (Express Mail) as well.

Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com

We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!



<citznfish@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120197256.437042.260780@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I have been trying to diagnose a problem with my Fish tales left
> flipper. It flutters whenever I hit the left flipper button. It'll fire
> off twice in a row and not hold in the up position.
>
> I have removed the coil and checked the windings. They don't appear to
> be broken, but I left the paper on so I didn't look under there, just
> on the lugs. I removed all the wires and resoldered them on along with
> the diodes. So I guess that leaves me with the transistor on the
> fliptronics II board. However I tested all the TIP102 transistors and
> they read fine (between .4 and .6 and .002 on the center pin). One
> didn't give a reading at first (second or third one in from the left),
> but then it was fine the next two passes through with a DMM.
>
> I'm not sure what to do next. Just order a new Coil? I am trying to fix
> this before a party on Monday and I'm pretty sure there are no parts
> suppliers in the San Fernando Valley. =/
>
>
> Also, I did switch the left side and right side flipper boards and the
> problem remained on the left side.
>
> Any ideas? Thanks
>
>
>
> >From Marvins site:
>
> When activated, doesn't hold up (the flipper "flutters"). This means
> the hold TIP102 transistor for that flipper is bad, or the hold winding
> on the coil itself is broken. The hold winding on the coil is the thin
> wire. If it is broken, usually the wire has broken away from one of the
> solder lugs (one outside lug should have both the thick and thin wire
> attached to it). Test the coil first (see above) before replacing the
> transistor. Check the Fliptronics hold circuit fuse. If flipper is
> still fluttering, swap the right and left flipper opto boards and see
> if the problem changes (indicating a bad cabinet switch flipper opto).
>
> -CF
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

If the flipper makes any movement, then the opto is okay- it won't prevent
the coil from staying in the "up" position. An open coil winding or open
driver transistor for the hold winding on the Fliptronics board can cause
this- 99.9% of the time it's an open coil winding.

Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com

We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!



"Jelle Nelemans" <jellen@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
news:42c4facd$0$60141$dbd49001@news.wanadoo.nl...
> Did you check the opto behind the flipper button?
> Clean it with alcohol and see if the bracket not needs adjustment.
> When you change sides with those two little boards, does the problem move
to
> the other side (if so then the coil is oke)
> Also clean the EOS contacts, and adjust them
>
> --
> Jelle Nelemans - The Netherlands
> ________________________________
> Speak*Easy-4 (1982)
> Crea*ture ft Bl*ack Lag*oon(1992)
> BS Drac*ula(1993)
> W*H2O(1993)
> S.T:T.N.G.(1993)
> Twi*light Zo*ne(1993)
> Pin-site : http://home.wanadoo.nl/jellen/
> ________________________________
> .
>
>
> <citznfish@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
> news:1120197256.437042.260780@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >I have been trying to diagnose a problem with my Fish tales left
> > flipper. It flutters whenever I hit the left flipper button. It'll fire
> > off twice in a row and not hold in the up position.
> >
> > I have removed the coil and checked the windings. They don't appear to
> > be broken, but I left the paper on so I didn't look under there, just
> > on the lugs. I removed all the wires and resoldered them on along with
> > the diodes. So I guess that leaves me with the transistor on the
> > fliptronics II board. However I tested all the TIP102 transistors and
> > they read fine (between .4 and .6 and .002 on the center pin). One
> > didn't give a reading at first (second or third one in from the left),
> > but then it was fine the next two passes through with a DMM.
> >
> > I'm not sure what to do next. Just order a new Coil? I am trying to fix
> > this before a party on Monday and I'm pretty sure there are no parts
> > suppliers in the San Fernando Valley. =/
> >
> >
> > Also, I did switch the left side and right side flipper boards and the
> > problem remained on the left side.
> >
> > Any ideas? Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >>From Marvins site:
> >
> > When activated, doesn't hold up (the flipper "flutters"). This means
> > the hold TIP102 transistor for that flipper is bad, or the hold winding
> > on the coil itself is broken. The hold winding on the coil is the thin
> > wire. If it is broken, usually the wire has broken away from one of the
> > solder lugs (one outside lug should have both the thick and thin wire
> > attached to it). Test the coil first (see above) before replacing the
> > transistor. Check the Fliptronics hold circuit fuse. If flipper is
> > still fluttering, swap the right and left flipper opto boards and see
> > if the problem changes (indicating a bad cabinet switch flipper opto).
> >
> > -CF
> >
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

A bad diode will do one of two things:

If shorted: You'll blow a fuse every time you hit the flipper button.
If open (or missing): Continued use can damage the driver transistor on the
Fliptronics board that controls the corresponding winding in the coil.
Usually the transistor will short out, in which case power will continue to
run through the coil. This will either blow the fuse (if it's running the
power winding), or may melt down the coil (if running the hold winding). Or
the transistor can open up, in which case it won't let the flipper work (if
it runs the power winding) or won't let the flipper stay up (if it runs the
hold winding).

Most likely you've just got an open coil winding (bad coil)- this is the
case 99.9% of the time. I don't think I've ever replaced a hold winding
transistor for a coil in all my days, so very unlikely your problem is a
transistor. Not impossible, but unlikely.

Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com

We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!



<citznfish@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120235317.504327.206260@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> the EOS seems to be making good contact and I did clean it. The opto
> boards are OK, I had switched them and the problem remained with that
> flipper. So I'm thinking I either missed something on the coil or the
> transistor is bad under load. Could I be missing something else here?
>
> The lugs on teh coil did seem to have the correct windings. Could a bad
> diode on the coil cause an issue like this? I wouldn't think so, but I
> don't have years of experience at this.
>
> -CF
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Thanks for the info everyone. I'll re-examine the coil. Last night
when i removed it I did remove all the old solder, and thought I had
thoroughly checked the coil windings. I'll look again.

If it is the coil, I have a WMS H*urricane (not working at the moment),
I don't have the resources to check right now, but I'll assume I can
rob a coil from it. I may try that then order a new one after the
holiday.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Thanks for the info everyone. I'll re-examine the coil. Last night
when i removed it I did remove all the old solder, and thought I had
thoroughly checked the coil windings. I'll look again.

If it is the coil, I have a WMS H*urricane (not working at the moment),
I don't have the resources to check right now, but I'll assume I can
rob a coil from it. I may try that then order a new one after the
holiday if I can't get the current one to operate correctly.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

It could also be much simpler than that. A buddy of mine had this happen on
his Who Dunnit, and it turned out that the button would push the metal into
the opto and the metal would start to vibrate in and out of the opto sending
signals that the flipper button was being pressed and released continuously.
We tightened the flipper board to the machine, and the problem went away.

--

Robert Harris
D*W, LO*TR, (coming soon TSPP)
2 down, so many more to go...


"Jelle Nelemans" <jellen@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
news:42c4facd$0$60141$dbd49001@news.wanadoo.nl...
> Did you check the opto behind the flipper button?
> Clean it with alcohol and see if the bracket not needs adjustment.
> When you change sides with those two little boards, does the problem move
to
> the other side (if so then the coil is oke)
> Also clean the EOS contacts, and adjust them
>
> --
> Jelle Nelemans - The Netherlands
> ________________________________
> Speak*Easy-4 (1982)
> Crea*ture ft Bl*ack Lag*oon(1992)
> BS Drac*ula(1993)
> W*H2O(1993)
> S.T:T.N.G.(1993)
> Twi*light Zo*ne(1993)
> Pin-site : http://home.wanadoo.nl/jellen/
> ________________________________
> .
>
>
> <citznfish@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
> news:1120197256.437042.260780@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >I have been trying to diagnose a problem with my Fish tales left
> > flipper. It flutters whenever I hit the left flipper button. It'll fire
> > off twice in a row and not hold in the up position.
> >
> > I have removed the coil and checked the windings. They don't appear to
> > be broken, but I left the paper on so I didn't look under there, just
> > on the lugs. I removed all the wires and resoldered them on along with
> > the diodes. So I guess that leaves me with the transistor on the
> > fliptronics II board. However I tested all the TIP102 transistors and
> > they read fine (between .4 and .6 and .002 on the center pin). One
> > didn't give a reading at first (second or third one in from the left),
> > but then it was fine the next two passes through with a DMM.
> >
> > I'm not sure what to do next. Just order a new Coil? I am trying to fix
> > this before a party on Monday and I'm pretty sure there are no parts
> > suppliers in the San Fernando Valley. =/
> >
> >
> > Also, I did switch the left side and right side flipper boards and the
> > problem remained on the left side.
> >
> > Any ideas? Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> >>From Marvins site:
> >
> > When activated, doesn't hold up (the flipper "flutters"). This means
> > the hold TIP102 transistor for that flipper is bad, or the hold winding
> > on the coil itself is broken. The hold winding on the coil is the thin
> > wire. If it is broken, usually the wire has broken away from one of the
> > solder lugs (one outside lug should have both the thick and thin wire
> > attached to it). Test the coil first (see above) before replacing the
> > transistor. Check the Fliptronics hold circuit fuse. If flipper is
> > still fluttering, swap the right and left flipper opto boards and see
> > if the problem changes (indicating a bad cabinet switch flipper opto).
> >
> > -CF
> >
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

See the tiny wires coming of the coil that flutters and are soldered to the
lugs the big wires to the coil go to ? One is broken or poorly soldered.
Clean the old solder off and clean and re-solder. Flipper flutter is always
a broken wire at the coil. LTG

<citznfish@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120197256.437042.260780@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I have been trying to diagnose a problem with my Fish tales left
> flipper. It flutters whenever I hit the left flipper button. It'll fire
> off twice in a row and not hold in the up position.
>
> I have removed the coil and checked the windings. They don't appear to
> be broken, but I left the paper on so I didn't look under there, just
> on the lugs. I removed all the wires and resoldered them on along with
> the diodes. So I guess that leaves me with the transistor on the
> fliptronics II board. However I tested all the TIP102 transistors and
> they read fine (between .4 and .6 and .002 on the center pin). One
> didn't give a reading at first (second or third one in from the left),
> but then it was fine the next two passes through with a DMM.
>
> I'm not sure what to do next. Just order a new Coil? I am trying to fix
> this before a party on Monday and I'm pretty sure there are no parts
> suppliers in the San Fernando Valley. =/
>
>
> Also, I did switch the left side and right side flipper boards and the
> problem remained on the left side.
>
> Any ideas? Thanks
>
>
>
> >From Marvins site:
>
> When activated, doesn't hold up (the flipper "flutters"). This means
> the hold TIP102 transistor for that flipper is bad, or the hold winding
> on the coil itself is broken. The hold winding on the coil is the thin
> wire. If it is broken, usually the wire has broken away from one of the
> solder lugs (one outside lug should have both the thick and thin wire
> attached to it). Test the coil first (see above) before replacing the
> transistor. Check the Fliptronics hold circuit fuse. If flipper is
> still fluttering, swap the right and left flipper opto boards and see
> if the problem changes (indicating a bad cabinet switch flipper opto).
>
> -CF
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Ok, I've tried tugging on the hold wires and they wwere not broken.
They were snug and wouldn't move much at either end. As a precaution I
resoldered the wires and also tried to solder the hold wires from teh
coil onto the lugs in a second spot.

I mesured resistence from teh center lug to the lug with the thin wire
from the coil. both right and left side flippers had readings of aprox.
130.00


The problem is still there. I think the coil is good. I think my
connections are solid. the opto boards are def good since i can switch
them from left to right and the problem remains with the left flipper.

The fuses are good, i don't think a bad fuse would cause teh flipper to
fire twice in a row then not hold itself up.

the EOS switch works correctly, I checked it for continuity when it
closes with a flipper being depressed.

What does that leave me? The TIP102 transistor? (Q9) I really don't
want to take the board out of the machine and swap transistors, so if
there is anything else to check please offer up your advice. =]

Thank you!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

nope. =/

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Have you tried swapping left and right flipper coils yet ? If not I'd try
that and see if the problem moves.

If the problem remains on the same flipper, then I'd carefully inspect the
fliptronics board for bad solder joints. LTG

<citznfish@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120261725.043852.89920@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> nope. =/
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Argh..the saga continues.


I have now swapped coils and the problem persists on the left side. (
just for you oh great one! ;-) )

I removed the fliptronics board and could not see any loose or bad
solder joints. The board actually looks brand new, as do all the boards
in the head on this game. I put a light behind the board to see if and
hidden breaks and found nothing. i cleaned up the connectors, which
look to be in GREAT shape.

So I guess this means my last item to check is that TIP102 transistor?
I went to Radio shack and they only have TIP120's. >=[

I doubt a 120 is compatible with a TIP102. =/

I guess this isn't getting fixed tonight. =/

Any other suggestions?


Thanks again for all your help.
-CF

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

True. I've had exactly 1 of these transistors fail in
all the years so far. That was on a Scared Stiff, and
I'm not so sure that it wasn't Neandertech inflicted....

Could be, though!
--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************



"Ray Johnson - Action Pinball" <staff@actionpinball.com> wrote

> Most likely you've just got an open coil winding (bad coil)- this is the
> case 99.9% of the time. I don't think I've ever replaced a hold winding
> transistor for a coil in all my days, so very unlikely your problem is a
> transistor. Not impossible, but unlikely.
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

The TIP120 would work in a pinch in this
case. It would be serviceable until you
locate the higher rated TIP102.

(60volts vs. 100volts)

Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************

<citznfish@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1120270602.709233.299810@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

> So I guess this means my last item to check is that TIP102 transistor?
> I went to Radio shack and they only have TIP120's. >=[
>
> I doubt a 120 is compatible with a TIP102. =/
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Do you have another fliptronics II board you can swap to see if the
problem goes away?

On 1 Jul 2005 16:29:35 -0700, citznfish@gmail.com wrote:

>Ok, I've tried tugging on the hold wires and they wwere not broken.
>They were snug and wouldn't move much at either end. As a precaution I
>resoldered the wires and also tried to solder the hold wires from teh
>coil onto the lugs in a second spot.
>
>I mesured resistence from teh center lug to the lug with the thin wire
>from the coil. both right and left side flippers had readings of aprox.
>130.00
>
>
>The problem is still there. I think the coil is good. I think my
>connections are solid. the opto boards are def good since i can switch
>them from left to right and the problem remains with the left flipper.
>
>The fuses are good, i don't think a bad fuse would cause teh flipper to
>fire twice in a row then not hold itself up.
>
>the EOS switch works correctly, I checked it for continuity when it
>closes with a flipper being depressed.
>
>What does that leave me? The TIP102 transistor? (Q9) I really don't
>want to take the board out of the machine and swap transistors, so if
>there is anything else to check please offer up your advice. =]
>
>Thank you!