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hyper-threading issues

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June 10, 2003 9:58:01 PM

Ok I'm having some tech issues here and I was hoping this board could help me. First off, I have the 2.8 p4 with HT and 800 FSB, the Gigabyte 8KNXP, and a gig of matched TwinX Corsair PC3200 400Mhz 2 x 512, and a GeForce FX 5200 Ultra AGP 8x nvidia vid card, and 420 watt power supply. When I first installed everything I was getting physical memory dumps so i replaced the hard drive and the RAM, then I started getting random restarts and one physical memory dump, so I replaced the RAM again. I was also getting random error messages for windows programs such as CCAPP.exe, iexplore.exe and others shutting off for no reason, then when i restart the programs that were shutting off would work fine. I've talked to a tech support person at my local computer store and they've said that they couldn't get any motherboard with any HT processor to be stable for long, but then I see the reviews on here and everything's supposed to be fine. And another salesperson told me that the 400Mhz wasn't as stable as the 333 yet and to wait on the 400. I'm seriously at a loss and wonder if anyone can give me good advice about what to do next. Thank you for your time and replies.

More about : hyper threading issues

June 10, 2003 10:03:50 PM

Do you have all of the Updates and SP1 (if you are using WinXP). And all of the current drivers for everything

I use to get what you are talking about when i was using a Pny Video Card. Its definetly not because the FSB is not stable because Intel would have not released a product that could easily seen errors like you are describing.

If all else fails do a backup and then give that HD a good old format.

Anyone else have ideas?

Mike
June 11, 2003 6:54:02 AM

"I've talked to a tech support person at my local computer store and they've said that they couldn't get any motherboard with any HT processor to be stable for long,"

Wanna mention the name of the store,... They seem to be retarded.

I have setup countless HT machines and yet to experiance a problem that is associated to the HT processor. What you are describing is a "infinite loop" problem that is associated with that video card. By some wierd chance are you running a flat panel display on the non-dvi connector?? If so get a DVI adapter and all will be fine. Sounds strange but it is a known issue with Nvidia cards.

Another possible cause is in "device manager" in the control panels. Open up "Computer" tab and make sure it is set for a "ACPI Multiprocessor PC".

I would avoid that local computer store for tech support in the future.



<b>"Granted I dont own a P4. But I read enough stuff and waste enough time on forums newsgroups IRC and computer news sites that I proberly know more then if I DID own a P4." -vk2amv</b>
Related resources
June 11, 2003 7:56:23 AM

"...Intel would never released..."
Yes they would, remember the 820chipset, or the 1.13ghz PIII CPU? Anyway, could be the Mobo, the CPU or the PSU! Since you have bought the stuff recently send it back and let the store do the fixing!

GL

Turk

PS just an idea but have you tried shuting of HP in BIOS and/or using just a singel memorystick to check?
a b à CPUs
June 11, 2003 8:13:57 AM

i820 worked perfectly (perfectly slowely) with RDRAM, it was when YOU insisted on SDRAM that everything went haywire.

<font color=blue>Watts mean squat if you don't have quality!</font color=blue>
June 11, 2003 2:50:54 PM

maybe those were mistakes, but by now, more than a month later, if things looked SO bad, Intel would have done something. The 1.13Ghz, for example, was taken out of circulation. So take it easy... I don't think that it's a general "P4+HT+DDR400+800MhzFSB" issue. It can't be - or is at the very least highly unlikely at this point.
June 11, 2003 3:40:09 PM

Quote:
i820 worked perfectly (perfectly slowely) with RDRAM, it was when YOU insisted on SDRAM that everything went haywire.

Exactly. It was the MTH (Memory Translator Hub I believe) that was the culprit that was added so that SDRAM could pretend to be RDRAM. The i820 chipset itself was perfectly fine.

And if you want to get even more technical, the MTH itself was also perfectly fine. The flaw was that many of the 3rd party motherboard manufacturers couldn't have been bothered to follow the specifications to the letter when they designed motherboards using the MTH. The result was that in some <i>very rare</i> cases the signals to and from the MTH were corrupted.

Since there was no simple way to actually identify which motherboards would end up with possibly corrupt signals and which ones would never experience any problems a recall on <i>any</i> product using the MTH was issued by Intel.

And all considered it was darn nice of Intel to shoulder that burden since it wasn't even Intel's fault that some of the 3rd party manufacturers just simply couldn't follow specs. It <i>should</i> have been those 3rd party manufacturers to do the recall, but Intel knew that some of them were just cheap jerks and wouldn't do it. So for the sake of the customers Intel did it for them.

That's the true sad story of the i820. So many people out of ignorance think that it was a mistake made by Intel, when in fact Intel themselves did everything right and the mistake was made by a minority of 3rd party manufacturers. And even then, Intel stepped up to shoulder the burden on the recall because they knew that not all of the 3rd party manufacturers would. So Intel went out of their way to help customers and took a considerable loss on a product for reasons that weren't even their fault. Yet to this day people still look down on Intel for having cleaned up other people's mistakes in the best interest of the customer at cost to themself.

"<i>Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they <b>ARE</b> your equals.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
a b à CPUs
June 12, 2003 1:43:06 AM

Intel didn't do the responsible thing because they wanted to, they did it to maintain their reputation! They aren't VIA, they're Intel, people actually make purchasing decisions based on that reputation!

<font color=blue>Watts mean squat if you don't have quality!</font color=blue>
June 12, 2003 3:40:51 AM

That's very right. Intel has a solid reputation were I work. And it's not as if there's no reason for them to have that reputation! :smile:
June 12, 2003 1:29:47 PM

Quote:
Intel didn't do the responsible thing because they wanted to, they did it to maintain their reputation! They aren't VIA, they're Intel, people actually make purchasing decisions based on that reputation!

Exactly. :)  Though in this particular case I'd imagine that what Intel wanted to do was to maintain their reputation, so they did it both because they wanted to and to protect their reputation, since they both amount to the same thing. ;) 

But that's my point. Hell, VIA has had known problems in their chipset drivers (some people would say even in their chipsets themselves) and wouldn't admit that it was their fault and wouldn't recall the fault products even though it was completely provable that it was completely and totally VIA's fault.

And then there's Intel, who recalls a product not because of their mistake but because some crappy 3rd party manus couldn't be bothered to follow specs and Intel doesn't want <i>any</i> flaky mobos related to the name Intel.

Intel is trustworthy because they go out of their way to make sure that their customers can run anything with the Intel name, whether it was produced by Intel or a 3rd party manu.

VIA isn't trustworthy because you can flat out prove that <i>they</i> made a flaw in one of their products and that <i>all</i> products based on that product will contain this very flaw and VIA still won't even admit that they have a problem, not to mention actually take responsibility for it.

That's why I don't support VIA. With so many other options there's just no reason to even bother with VIA.

And that's why I do support companies like Intel, because if you buy an Intel product, you can be sure that on the very slim chance that it doesn't work right, you <i>will</i> be able to get it fixed, replaced, or refunded. There simply is no such thing as an Intel product owner being stuck with a faulty part from Intel. (At least as long as it still has a waranty.) That's a damn good reputation to have.

"<i>Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they <b>ARE</b> your equals.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
June 12, 2003 5:39:41 PM

I didnt know i could cause so much controversy over 4 or 5 little words.

/me sits here with a devilish grin

Mike
June 12, 2003 6:05:29 PM

wow, i had never heard of this before. but then i had never heard of the i820 either. i had always thot INTEL was over-rated (forgive my ignorance). i wud always say to myself, why wudnt ppl go in for a AMD solution even when they are very price concious. But now, tnx 2 u guys, i guess i have to admit that INTEL deserves it. hmmm. so my next upgrade shud definitely be an INTEL :smile: ha ha ha

If sometimes you feel little, useless, offended or depressed or get that loser feeling, always remember that you were once the fastest and most victorious sperm out of hundreds of millions...
June 12, 2003 7:33:06 PM

Quote:
so my next upgrade shud definitely be an INTEL

Well I doubt that you would be disappointed with such an upgrade, however I really don't suggest that people upgrade based on just that.

AMD themselves have done pretty well too, and now that nVidia is making AMD-based motherboards you no longer are stuck with a VIA chipset (or worse) for an AMD motherboard.

Really I still support the method that people just making a educated purchases based on what best meets your needs. For some people that need is low cost. For some it's absolute dependability. For some it's performance.

If people want to support a company just for liking a company then they should buy that company's stocks. :) 

"<i>Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they <b>ARE</b> your equals.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
June 12, 2003 9:40:26 PM

Taking credit for people jumping me when I jumped you? Not fair! :mad: 

Anyhow this discusion is way out. How's all this helping the original poster and his hardwareproblems? Sorry for asking (even more sorry I did'nt post anything that helps him) but we ought to concentrate on that instead of a general discusion of which company does what.

Turk
June 12, 2003 11:43:39 PM

The day that a thread stays on topic for more than one page is the day that the intenet collapses.

<font color=red>Now that I am running RAID 5 I find myself praying for a hard drive failure.</font color=red>
June 13, 2003 12:19:20 AM

My thoughts exactly. :smile:

Anyway, Turk, it's just that you said something that needed to be cleared up...

And slvr_phoenix, as always, your posts are certainly some of the most informative and best in this forum, as far as I'm concerned! :smile:
June 13, 2003 9:45:25 AM

u said it dude. Myself, i am content with AMD. Its the most logical solution for me. <font color=red><b>(logical = economical)</b></font color=red>. When i upgraded, i bought a 1700+, A7V8X (yes, its VIA). thats b'coz A7N8X cost almost twice as much as A7V8X at that time. Now i am happy with my overclocked 1700+ (2137MHz, 12.5*171, thats a cool 2700+). When i run SiSoft Sandra 2003, i get better scores in my CPU benchmark than 2600+ and even 2800+.

Even now, in India, i cud buy a 2000+ and a decent mother board for the price i wud be paying for a P4 1.8GHz!!!

I even have a MX440 and pretty much content with it now, b'coz its the most "logical solution" for me.

That said, if i were to upgrde right now, with money-no-bar, i wud definitely go the <font color=blue><b>INTEL</b></font color=blue> way. And if i want a "Logical" solution, <font color=green><b>AMD still rules</b></font color=green>

If sometimes you feel little, useless, offended or depressed or get that loser feeling, always remember that you were once the fastest and most victorious sperm out of hundreds of millions...
June 14, 2003 9:51:54 AM

i am having the same problmes with HT, i am using a MSI 875neo, and there are a lot of instabillty , i use a satelite connection for the interntet and it crashes all the time, when i disabled HT, all worked fine, I belive HT is a big lie for the intel team, it is not supported by a lot of hardware and this makes it useless
June 15, 2003 4:55:57 AM

ROFL, I smell a AMD lemming at work.

WTF does sat connection for internet have to do with HT? Not a damn thing seek another ISP if your internet crashes for gods sake. HT is taken advantage of by the XP operating system.

If you have a problem with the NEO then replace it. HT works great and improves the performance of the operating system as a whole.

"I believe HT is a big lie for the intel team, its not supported by a lot of hardware and that makes it useless" - ROFL @ a troll. Maybe you better know what you are talking about first before you add comments that make you look very stupid. Just trying to save you future embarrasment.

ding ding ding,.. I might have a new signature!!

<b>"Granted I dont own a P4. But I read enough stuff and waste enough time on forums newsgroups IRC and computer news sites that I proberly know more then if I DID own a P4." -vk2amv</b>
June 15, 2003 11:38:30 AM

it seems , that you are the one that does not know what you are talking about. For your information MR. Know it all. After contacting the sat Modem manufacture, they said that their modem does not support HT beacuse of the fact that they found out the HT was not stable. also If you know everthing why don't try to install a regular dial up modem and enable HT and see what happes. It seems that YOU no nothing about HT AND just enjoyS insulting people. For your information Creative and Zoom Support admited that they dont know if thier modems will work with HT and said that HT was unstable .. I ASSURE YOU THAT YOU MADE ME KNOW THAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO THINK THEY KNOW IT ALL ARE A DISGRACE FOR SUCH COMMUNITY. I BELIVE WE ARE ALL HEAR TO LEARN FOR EACH OTHER BUT I GUESS THE LIKES OF YOU ARE IN THE WORNG PLACE
June 15, 2003 1:22:23 PM

I've had experience with HT. It works marvellously, I can't complain, I've seen enourmous boosts in performance with my own eyes, and I can't even begin to imagine how the hell HT is supposed to interact with a modem in such a destructive manner.
Quote:
For your information Creative and Zoom Support admited that they dont know if thier modems will work with HT and said that HT was unstable

I've never seen anyone complaining about HT in the real life (this thread was actually the first). So I'm inclined to have my doubts as to the competence of those "Modem manufacturers" you mentioned. OF COURSE they would just LOVE to say that it wasn't them who built a crappy piece of engineering with their modem - one who couldn't interact with HT technology in some way that escapes me - but rather, those *** at Intel released an imperfect product. Because, OF COURSE, their modem is a flawless one. Get my point? Switch modems, for god's sake, but I wouldn't live without the benefits of HT if I were you.
June 17, 2003 7:45:52 AM

I am a Intel Developer and been running HT since Comdex last year. I have setup countless machines and yet to experaince a problem related to HT.

Sit back down before you hurt yourself, HT has nothing to do with your modem.

Based upon your mispellings you must be 12 years old so I seriously doubt you own a HT machine.

Run along troll.

<b>"Granted I dont own a P4. But I read enough stuff and waste enough time on forums newsgroups IRC and computer news sites that I proberly know more then if I DID own a P4." -vk2amv</b>
June 17, 2003 2:11:22 PM

11 and a half Fugger. Gezz you are looseing yer touch hes oviously suffering from some sort of retardation most, likely a birth defect. HT affects SAT modems LMAO maybe the sun dust you sniff everyday could be affecting the Satellite orbit causeing interference of the radio telescope on the moon.

Remember future moms dont drink or smoke crack while pregnant your future child maybe this young man.

-Jeremy

:evil:  <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=5341387" target="_new">Busting Sh@t Up!!!</A> :evil: 
:evil:  <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?pcm=1060900" target="_new">Busting More Sh@t Up!!!</A> :evil: 
June 17, 2003 5:21:18 PM

Look there, I KNOW WHAT I KNOW << AND I REALLY DO NOT CARE WHAT YOUR MESSED UP BRAINS HAS TO SAY, AND IF I WERE 12 YEARS OLD I WILL STILL KNOW MORE THAN YOU >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

GET A LIFE
June 17, 2003 5:43:45 PM

Just to rest my case and prove what i said was true :
Check The site for the manufacturer of my sat modem:
http://www.t-data.lu and check the FAQ and if u still have doubs, send an email to their support team .. and then come and talk to me.. MR. Know it all
June 17, 2003 11:02:21 PM

I checked their FAQ and couldn't find any mention of hyperthreaded CPU's. Is there a direct URL to the page you mentioned?
June 18, 2003 9:51:01 AM

the Url is : http://www.tdata.lu/rubriken/support/html/faq_skystar_2...
and you will see that they say that the modem does not support dual Cpu config. and if u enable HT it means that you have a dual Cpu config. If you still don't belive me send them an email and they will respond back saying what i have just said.
June 18, 2003 11:41:13 AM

couldn't open that link again...

why would a modem not be compatible with a dual cpu setup? Very good modem. So HT has nothing to do with it... it's a dual setup. That company is going to have to design better modems or they'll have serious trouble.
June 18, 2003 11:52:58 AM

Quote:
That company is going to have to design better modems or they'll have serious trouble.

Too late I reckon. That website appears to not exist anymore... ;) 

I have no idea how you could design software or hardware that will crash on a dual setup anyway... Sounds like the old <font color=blue>'it's not our fault - your system is to blame' </font color=blue> lame excuse.

[EDIT]
Aaah! a typo in the second link you gave - "tdata" should be "t-data"...
so
<A HREF="http://www.t-data.lu/rubriken/support/html/faq_skystar_..." target="_new">Clickomatic for the people</A>

[/EDIT]


---
:smile: :tongue: :smile: <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by ChipDeath on 06/18/03 12:58 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
June 18, 2003 2:51:41 PM

Haha OMG kid, dont you have a little voice in your head that says "this is stupid to say, dont say it cause its soo damned stupid and people will resent you for your stupidness"??? Cause Hyper Threading is not a dual CPU setup in any manner or way. Its seen by XP as it is but it isnt. All it is a better ultilizeation of the execution reasources for the Pentium 4 lines 20 stage pipeline. Nothing more nothing less.

Well techically Intel says it can run more than one thread completely independent of the other such as a dual CPU system configuration specs would allow but we wount bother with that. Its too funny laughing at crack head gazzazhs here.

-Jeremy

:evil:  <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=5341387" target="_new">Busting Sh@t Up!!!</A> :evil: 
:evil:  <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?pcm=1060900" target="_new">Busting More Sh@t Up!!!</A> :evil: 
June 18, 2003 8:12:02 PM

Dear gazzazh

I believe that none of our modem support HT

Please retain all the previous correspondence when replying to this
email.

Best Regards

Michael (14485)
Technical Support
Creative Labs Americas

Original Message Follows:
------------------------
Dear Michael,

Ht is Intel new Hypertherading that u find in all the new P4 CPus with
800
FSB . when i enable Hypertherading the modem will give me a loopback
detected and will not connect, and when i disable Hypertherading the
modem
will work fine.

Thanks a lot


>From: Creative Americas Technical Support
><CLI.support@customercare.creative.com>
>>Subject: Re: CLI - Support Request Form (KMM1138812I30L0KM)
>Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 19:58:20 +0100 (BST)
>
Dear Sir,
>
>What is HT that you are talking about?
>
>Please retain all the previous correspondence when replying to this
>email.
>
>Best Regards
>
>Michael (14485)
>Technical Support
>Creative Labs Americas
>
>Original Message Follows:
>------------------------
>=======================
>
>Subject: CLI - Support Request Form
>Name: gazzazh
>
>Self Description: Advanced PC User
>------------------
>Support Inquiry: I need help with a third-party software application
>Product: Modem Blaster Di5655
>------------------
>Operating System: Windows XP
>Creative Model Number: Di5655
>Computer Brand/Model:
>Processor/CPU: P4 3.06 ghz
>Memory: 1GB RAM DDR 400
>BIOS Type/Revision: AMi 4.1
>System Board/Chipset: MSI 875p NEW , intel 875p
>------------------
>
>Detailed Problem Description:
>dear sir,
>
>when i enable HT i get a loopback detected error whenever
>i try to log on to the net. and when i disable HT my modem
>works fine. Kindly please help. Does this modem have a
>problem working with HT, and if it does, is there a new
>driver to fix this problem. Pleae help. Its very frustrating for me not to use HT .
>
>Thanks
>
>
-
June 19, 2003 6:16:41 AM

"I believe that none of our modem support HT" - you wrote this yourself, its obvious.

All your base are belong to us.

<b>"Granted I dont own a P4. But I read enough stuff and waste enough time on forums newsgroups IRC and computer news sites that I proberly know more then if I DID own a P4." -vk2amv</b>
June 19, 2003 12:33:25 PM

Actually, I'd like to interject at this point. (Well, I'd have prefered to have done it sooner, but I only just got around to reading through this thread.) As a software engineer and occasional PC maintanance and hardware tester for a company that sometimes works with some pretty weird $#!7, I've run into problems like this before.

Believe it or not there <i>are</i> drivers out there that will totally crash when run on any sort of a multi-processor Windows. So any dualie system running NT or better, or now with HT-enabled CPUs any modern single-CPU system running NT or better (though it's usually just done on XP because it's the only M$ non-server OS that supports HT correctly) will cause these drivers much grief.

Now, you might think that's stupid. It should never happen, right? Well, you're right. It never <i>should</i> happen. However, sometimes computer programmers are lazy sots. In the cases of drivers like these, the drivers are written under the assumption that they can access the CPU directly without having to first ask the OS <i>which</i> CPU is running their code. Should the driver code end up being processed under an assignment that wasn't hard-coded into the poorly-written drivers, <b>CRASH!</b>

So basically there <i>are</i> some drivers out there that just can't be run under <i>any</i> dualie or HT systems because the drivers themselves are hard-coded to access the processor directly. It's bad coding. These are drivers written by either lazy sots or unskilled monkeys. Take your pick. Either way, it's pretty sorry for a software engineer to have made such assumptions, and it's even worse that the manufacturer of the product which uses these poorly-written drivers doesn't at some point re-write the drivers to run in a multi-processor configuration.

It happens. It's pretty rare, and it's incredibly sad, but it does happen. It is in no way Intel's fault. It does not prove that HT is faulty. It is in no way Micro$oft's fault. It does not prove that M$ can't write a stable OS.

<i>It is <b>entirely</b> the fault of the <b>idiot</b> who hard-coded the driver to only access the first CPU when they wrote the driver.</i> And it is <i>entirely</i> the fault of the hardware manufacturer for <i>not</i> making sure that the drivers were written right in the first place, for <i>not</i> testing the drivers thoroughly, and for <i>not</i> taking the time to fix their drivers when the problem is discovered. So blame the manufacturer of the hardware that has the faulty drivers because it is completely, totally, and irrevocably <i>their</i> fault and their fault <i>alone</i>.

Frankly, it's an issue that pisses me off greatly because the company that I work for has had to deal with a hardware manufacturer that refuses to fix this flaw, and thanks to a certain mutual-exclusivity contract that gives us and them both certain benefits we can't just go with another manufacturer instead. :( 

"<i>Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they <b>ARE</b> your equals.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
!