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A new reason to debate over MAC vs PC

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June 29, 2003 5:22:08 AM

OK every one likes to rant on about weather or ATI is better then NVidia and same goes for Mac and PC...except, Of coarse the PC world has been Dominating the markets for the last few years now, refering to performance, and there hasn't been much change till now.

It seeems that the tables may have just changed a little... take a look at the new HARDWARE coming out at apple now!!!!

The G5 system...I'll post their fastest one. Let see what you'll all have to say.

Dual 2GHz *
HyperTransport *1
512 L2 Cache
FSB 1Ghz *2
512MB PC3200 (400MHz)8GB MAX *3
ATI RADEON 9600 Pro *4
160GB Serial ATA *5
4X SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW) *6
PCI slots: Three open full-length PCI-X slots: one 133MHz, 64-bit slot and two 100MHz, 64-bit slots *7
1 FireWire 800 port
2 FireWire 400 ports(one on front)
3 USB 2.0 ports(one on front), two USB 1.1 ports (still on keyboard)
10/100/1000BASE-T Ethernet and 56K modem
AirPort Extreme ready (based on 802.11g specification; IEEE 802.11b Wi-Fi)
Bluetooth option
Optical digital audio in, optical digital audio out, analog audio in, analog audio out *8



Now with stats like that...THAT seems to be pretty DAMN competitive...no? however with the price still at $3000 its not...but you do end up with a MAC(a Very High tech, Stylish, and inovative Machine)


* yes this is STILL slower then the 3.06, and yes the 3.06 is hyperthreading...but these processors are now 64 BIT!...AND

*1 HyperTransport protocol integrates the Power Mac G5’s I/O subsystems and connects them to the system controller. Serial ATA, Gigabit Ethernet, FireWire, USB 2.0 and optical digital and analog audio are all integrated through two bidirectional 16-bit, 800MHz HyperTransport interconnects for a maximum throughput of 3.2GB per second....wasn't this something that was to be seen with AMD?

*2 ok not too sure whats going on here... there is a 800/900 and a 1Ghz FSB...FAST/FASTER/FASTEST machines...this is very strange to me... and if this is the case it would meen there could be lots of OCing made here on this board....Speaking of OC'ing check out their Cooling system!!!!DAMN!

*3 WTF!!! 8GB RAM!!![-peep-]!!! thats the size of my last HD!

*4 not too sure why they stopped there...but you can upgrade to the 9800 pro... for 300 freeking Bones!

*5 ok this is not all too "MAC" like. you can only have 2 HDs... mind you 500 GB's max is not all that bad...and it is RAID capatable, but still.

*6 This Sux it appears that there is only room for one optical drive. so any Duping will require an external or copying to the HD.

*7 intersting that they are going with the PCI-X slots...love to here what ppl think of that.

*8 oooo this is NICE, optical digital audio in and out ports use the S/PDIF (Sony/Philips Digital Interface) protocol over Toslink cables for connecting to devices such as decks, receivers, digital instruments, and even 5.1 surround-sound speaker systems.

One other Note... Mac LONG ago got rid of the USELESS 3.5" Floppy...and replaced it with the ZIP drive in the Towers...but that too seems to be gone... looks like they are fully embracing the CD/DVD media now.

All around this seems like a real kicking machine!!!

If you've just got to rant,(cause i know you wanna), Check it out first!

http://www.apple.com/powermac/

ASUS P4S8X - P4 2.4B - 2 x 512M DDR333 - ATI 9500 Pro(Sapphire) - WD 80G HD (8M Buffer) - SAMSUNG SV0844D 8G HD - LG 16X DVD - Yamaha F1 CDRW - Iomega Zip 250 int.

More about : reason debate mac

June 29, 2003 5:28:10 AM

Country roads, take me home.
To the place i belong.
West virginia, Montain momma.
Take me home, Country roads.

--------
The only thing that i truly know...

is that i know nothing at all.
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June 29, 2003 9:34:59 AM

People buy macs, lots of them. The G5 will be the #1 selling 64bit desktop computer sold in 2003.

<b>"Granted I dont own a P4. But I read enough stuff and waste enough time on forums newsgroups IRC and computer news sites that I proberly know more then if I DID own a P4." -vk2amv</b>
June 29, 2003 3:05:01 PM

i not so sure as AMD 64 is coming G5 will not be on the market before few month and with a score of 800/800 there not much ISV that willing to port there apps from PC to PPC

[-peep-] french
June 29, 2003 4:09:29 PM

*****************************
The Inquirer has an article about why people don't buy Macs. IMO what they say in that article is true!
*****************************
Cuz they are useless overpriced junk....
June 29, 2003 4:18:45 PM

That comment is just stupid. Apple needs to get over themselves, i dont go around msgboards and try to prove why my computer is good, so you dont have to either, its starting to get annoying
June 29, 2003 5:35:46 PM

Seriously?
Get a life!

Marketting these things is not what we enthusiasts will accept openly. Try to read this forum's already existing threads on this rather than thinking we all NEED this.

--
If I could see the Matrix, I'd tell you I am only seeing 0s inside your head! :tongue:
June 29, 2003 7:44:34 PM

My thoughts on why people don't buy Mac:

When you buy a Mac, where are you going to look to for new updates, software, and hardware? The answer is simple... Apple.

When you buy a PC, where are you going to look to for new updates, software, and hardware? The answer is longer and tougher... MS, Intel, AMD, Linux, Nvidia, ATI, IBM, and even international companies. But that's only a partial answer.

So if you're buying a Mac, the Mac you are buying had better do all that you expect it to do since you're buying the entire thing as a piece. In addition, when you have problems with that machine, or would like to do something else with it, the only place you can go back to for help is apple.

But these days, people are getting more aware of technology and the competition. So when they buy a home computer, they not only think of what it can do, but also the price. PC hardware can be dirt cheap where as with Macs, you only get the options from Apple and you have to pay Apple's price.

To add:
-most businesses use windows machines, not apple machines.
-most new software is developed for PCs.
-all popular games are developed for PCs, and if they sell, they are then ported to Mac
-the PC community is far larger than the Mac community

All of the people I know that own Macs do so because they're brainwashed into thinking that the Mac is somehow far better than the PC. Sure, maybe the software is better as far as using the thing, but PC software (especially with windows), is now much easier to use as well.

My Mac friend tried to make the argument that when you install software on a mac, you just copy the folder. Well, when I install software on a PC, i just keep hitting the next button. How hard is that? You don't even have to read the text, you can just keep hitting the next button and when it goes away, you look at your computer and there's the software!

So the only reason to buy a mac is if you like their software/hardware package better than anything the PC has. For the picky users, this matters.

Personally, I don't like being on apple's leash when it comes to hardware and software. I think most enthusiasts would be similar since they take pride is being able to decide what goes into their box.
June 29, 2003 7:51:03 PM

Hey, you may have noticed that i do not own a Mac Myself...as they ARE way over priced.

But what i can't understand is that all the PC enthusests out there, (who BTW seem to have empty pockets and take their current machine and try to turn it in to some sorta Beast of a machine, just to boost it 1-10% faster), can't except the fact that the Mac world are usually the first to embrace new technology!

All i am saying is... the PC heads out there will eventually, like it or lump it, be putting in technology that Apple has had (standard) for a long time, ie. USB 1 and 2, firewire 1 and 2, DVD burners, 10/100/1000 networking and over abundant space for RAM... or what have you.

Obviously!! the same goes for PC's and when new technology come out for them ie. Hyperthreading, RDRAM, DDRAM, Dual channeling and what not,... pc heads are grinding their teeth at night waiting for there order to come in!

But why is it that if it come out on a Mac first ppl don't care?

I dunno, but i think that all you tinkers out there would probaly have Just as Much Fun tinkering on a Mac as you do on a PC.

the only thing in your way seems to be the money...but wait, money? aren't the tinkers out there the ones with the 9800 pro's and the 3.06 HT systems...with the most expencive cooling systems to keep there over clocked this and that cool?...hmm

when it comes down to it... No one REALY cares about getting that MP3 incoded 1 second faster or getting 2 FPS more out of your card.... Its the Tweeking of your machine and seeing if it worked is the real fun part. and don't deny it!




ASUS P4S8X - P4 2.4B - 2 x 512M DDR333 - ATI 9500 Pro(Sapphire) - WD 80G HD (8M Buffer) - SAMSUNG SV0844D 8G HD - LG 16X DVD - Yamaha F1 CDRW - Iomega Zip 250 int.
June 29, 2003 8:06:18 PM

Quote:
All i am saying is... the PC heads out there will eventually, like it or lump it, be putting in technology that Apple has had (standard) for a long time, ie. USB 1 and 2, firewire 1 and 2, DVD burners, 10/100/1000 networking and over abundant space for RAM... or what have you.


Who cares? Downsides of owning a mac when you previously owned Pc for many years quickly outweigh the benefits. I really couldnt care if mac adopts a new technology first, as it will appear on a pc in a matter of days or weeks, or not appear at all since you really dont *NEED* these new technologies as quick as possible

Quote:
But why is it that if it come out on a Mac first ppl don't care?



Because not many people use macs, and a new useless tech isnt enough for them to care

Quote:
I dunno, but i think that all you tinkers out there would probaly have Just as Much Fun tinkering on a Mac as you do on a PC.


I doubt it, since you really cant build macs yourself and tweak most of the performance settings, or are even given any settings in the bios

Quote:
Its the Tweeking of your machine and seeing if it worked is the real fun part. and don't deny it!


Exactly, which is why Mac has <5 percent marketshare
June 29, 2003 8:11:08 PM

Macs are an irrelevance. I have nothing against them to be honest, but the Mac community has gradually lost its grip on reality since the heady days of the G3.

If Mac users/zealots weren't so full of crap, then maybe they would get a little more respect...
June 29, 2003 8:48:51 PM

Ganache:
Quote:
So many ppl are enslaved to Mac guru style marketting...read some facts...

http://www.amdzone.com/articleview.cfm?ArticleID=1296


IMHO
Facts:
1. Who wrote the article: AMD zone, does AMD make processors for macs?
2. Did the article mention Intel Itanium, also 64 bit processor?
3. Has any manufactures for PC and PC pheriphals cheated on benchmarks?

This article is not something worth reading though I have read it. AMD ZONE, site about AMD processors and PCs, not MACS. Most people who have PCs prefer them over Macs and vice versa. Clearly Apple has some interesting stuff up its sleeves with the G5 that yet has to be available for PCs. Are these new "breakthroughs" useful? That's another story. Apple computers are designed very well, and its OS is much more user friendly and plaged with less problems than its Microsoft counterpart. The one thing that kept me to use PCs is the myriad softwares available for them, especaily to the handful amount available to Macs.
June 29, 2003 9:05:56 PM

Why would a mac site, written by people who use macs create an article that puts down the G5 benchmarks?
June 29, 2003 9:06:22 PM

Quote:
Apple's return policy isn't exactly comforting either-you have the right to a return if unsatisfied with the product, but only if the product is unopened in the box. Hard to tell if you're unsatisfied with the product if it's still in the box, isn't it?

All I have to say is. . .hahaha.
June 29, 2003 11:00:02 PM

***
If Mac users/zealots weren't so full of crap, then maybe they would get a little more respect...
***

I fully agree with you there!!!


ASUS P4S8X - P4 2.4B - 2 x 512M DDR333 - ATI 9500 Pro(Sapphire) - WD 80G HD (8M Buffer) - SAMSUNG SV0844D 8G HD - LG 16X DVD - Yamaha F1 CDRW - Iomega Zip 250 int.
June 29, 2003 11:05:15 PM

NOW that! is funny.. i never heard that before...WOW

ASUS P4S8X - P4 2.4B - 2 x 512M DDR333 - ATI 9500 Pro(Sapphire) - WD 80G HD (8M Buffer) - SAMSUNG SV0844D 8G HD - LG 16X DVD - Yamaha F1 CDRW - Iomega Zip 250 int.
June 29, 2003 11:10:24 PM

Too bad some people are too stupid to see beyond a biased article by a moronic AMD lemming. That article is a joke and flawed severly, like I pointed out in another thread.

Just because other people use mac's for reasons that are unknown to you does not mean that they do not sell by the millions.

People stil buy AMD even though the current line of CPU's are all inferior.

Those "facts" you posted are fuel for AMD lemmings such as yourself. Maybe you need to learn some facts. Its not my job to school you.

"Mac guru style of marketing"?? They build a non x86 machine, and marketing is not targeted at you so get over it.

<b>"Granted I dont own a P4. But I read enough stuff and waste enough time on forums newsgroups IRC and computer news sites that I proberly know more then if I DID own a P4." -vk2amv</b>
June 29, 2003 11:10:40 PM

****
Why would a mac site, written by people who use macs create an article that puts down the G5 benchmarks?
****

i would just like to welcome you to Tomshardware.com...

THINK ABOUT THAT!!!!!




ASUS P4S8X - P4 2.4B - 2 x 512M DDR333 - ATI 9500 Pro(Sapphire) - WD 80G HD (8M Buffer) - SAMSUNG SV0844D 8G HD - LG 16X DVD - Yamaha F1 CDRW - Iomega Zip 250 int.
June 29, 2003 11:22:45 PM

***Clearly Apple has some interesting stuff up its sleeves with the G5 that yet has to be available for PCs.
***

Now this would be a great accomplishment!...if what you mean is to use this processor.

a PC processor that is 64Bit backwords compatiable with 32Bit. A hurdle that not even INTEL has been able to leep.

...this may not be too far off from reality!

the POWER PC is made by IBM... so why not! i do belive that the chip had the potential at one time during development to be handled by AMD...but don't quote me on that.



ASUS P4S8X - P4 2.4B - 2 x 512M DDR333 - ATI 9500 Pro(Sapphire) - WD 80G HD (8M Buffer) - SAMSUNG SV0844D 8G HD - LG 16X DVD - Yamaha F1 CDRW - Iomega Zip 250 int.
June 29, 2003 11:35:31 PM

Gotta wait till august, Apple has set the bar for 64bit performance on the desktop.

Other markets will ensure healthy sales.

<b>"Granted I dont own a P4. But I read enough stuff and waste enough time on forums newsgroups IRC and computer news sites that I proberly know more then if I DID own a P4." -vk2amv</b>
June 29, 2003 11:38:06 PM

Get over yourself, I am not here to for your pleasure.

Maybe you want to chine in on something with usefull information that you actually know something about next time, instead of just posting useless off topic crap.

<b>"Granted I dont own a P4. But I read enough stuff and waste enough time on forums newsgroups IRC and computer news sites that I proberly know more then if I DID own a P4." -vk2amv</b>
a b à CPUs
June 29, 2003 11:52:03 PM

Dual 2GHz. Gee, that ought to have nearly as much power for programs as, say, a single 1GHz CPU. But it would be faster with a few programs (very few) and for multitasking.

1.) So? HyperTransport is just another internal bus, 512k already in several x86 CPU's
2.) And what good is that if you don't have the memory to support it?
3.) PC3200...Dual or Single channel? If it's single channel, the performance of the bus speed is limitted to "400", if it's dual channel it's limitted to "800". Already been at 400 for years on the PC, and 800 is here also
4.) Also available on the PC
5.) Also available on the PC
6.) Also available on the PC
7.) Nice, but what cards can you use?
-Firewire 800? For what device?
-Firewire 400? Already there on PC
-USB 2.0? Latest PC boards support 8 ports
-10/100/1000? Also available on PC
-Airport? Lots of Wi-Fi options on the PC
-Bluetooth option? Alread devices for PC
-Optical in/out? Look at Abit's IC7 and IS7 series

In fact, nearly everything you have listed is available on the IS7-G.

*Is 64-bit really faster?
*2 The fact they need more cooling is a good thing?
*3 Who can afford it? Who needs more than the 2GB supported by the latest chipsets?
*4 And I can BUY a 9800 Pro for my PC, for 200 freaking bones more than the 9600 Pro.
*5 yes yes
*6 hehe, there's your closed architecture
*7 told you already
*8 Yep, get an IS7 or IS7-G

So basically a $3000 MAC compares to a $2000 PC. I don't think you've given me any reason to switch.

<font color=blue>Watts mean squat if you don't have quality!</font color=blue>
June 29, 2003 11:52:43 PM

"Why would a mac site, written by people who use macs create an article that puts down the G5 benchmarks? " You reffering to the "AMDzone" link? better check again.

The mac community has been waiting a long time for the G5, it was put off when Motorola and Apple split company at the end of the contact to produce processors. Apple purchased all the PPC assets and IBM got the Altivec assets. IBM now makes processors for Apple called the G5 with Velocity engine and IBM now offers the 970 with Alivec both being the same thing.

<A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?nam..." target="_new">Way back in 2001</A>, I posted on this forum of the changes.

<A HREF="http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/powerpc/newsletter/..." target="_new">IBM PPC970 w/Altivec</A> December 2002

Altivec is 4 vector processing units per CPU, on steroids. what good is that? heh

<b>"Granted I dont own a P4. But I read enough stuff and waste enough time on forums newsgroups IRC and computer news sites that I proberly know more then if I DID own a P4." -vk2amv</b>
June 29, 2003 11:58:50 PM

Upgrade path for existing devices is very simple, all manufacturers need to do is change from PHY400 to the new PHY800, it will be backwards compatable.

Apple uses passive cooling, if you would like to see the heatpipe technology on the new duals I will upload them. They will continue to mount the 120mm fan in the case to cool the large passive heat sink.

I dont think you guys know how huge the newest heat sinks are. They are fricken huge and made of copper.

No reason to switch if you use PC, service beauro's and graphic houses will surely welcome them with open arms. Animation may get the biggest boost and this is where the G5 will shine the most IMO.

<b>"Granted I dont own a P4. But I read enough stuff and waste enough time on forums newsgroups IRC and computer news sites that I proberly know more then if I DID own a P4." -vk2amv</b>
June 30, 2003 12:41:48 AM

are you sure of this claim that G5 2GHZ dont have fan on it that really hard to believe.In any case IBM/Motorola/Apple have fail in the past and will fail again.They go again X87 again Microsoft.Personaly i think IBm dont care they just want mass producting from any thing

[-peep-] french
June 30, 2003 1:02:26 AM

It has two fans for blowing air over the encased heatsinks and two exhaust fans right behind encased heatsinks. <A HREF="http://www.applelinks.com/news/gifs/G5openbig.jpg" target="_new"> Picture</A>. I don't consider having 4 fans specifically for the processors passive cooling. Each to their own I guess. I guess he's considering it passive because there are no fans mounted directly on the heatsinks.
June 30, 2003 2:51:40 AM

I have new G4 1.4 duals (fastest shipping PPC's) that do use a passive heatsink and heat pipe technology. Like I said I can upload pictures for you if you have not seen them yet.

Like in the G5 picture linked is a passive heat sink with fans mounted elsewhere on the case.

<b>"Granted I dont own a P4. But I read enough stuff and waste enough time on forums newsgroups IRC and computer news sites that I proberly know more then if I DID own a P4." -vk2amv</b>
June 30, 2003 2:56:59 AM

Quote:
Gotta wait till august, Apple has set the bar for 64bit performance on the desktop.


rrrrrrrright..... you mean apple *may* set the bar for 64 bit performancxe on the desktop
June 30, 2003 2:58:41 AM

Does your Dual G4 1.25 GHz is faster that your P4 on canterwood my guess no all benchmark show that you will need in theory 3 G4 to equal a single P4 3.0C let alone presscott or Dual opteron or dual Xeon 1MB.

[-peep-] french<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by juin on 06/29/03 11:09 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
June 30, 2003 3:12:16 AM

IMO the external styling of the casing doesn't look as good as the g4.

:cool: :eek:  :redface: :frown: :lol:  :mad:  :eek:  :smile: :tongue: :wink:
June 30, 2003 3:45:57 AM

Gotta stick with Juin on this one. Let's face it, the Pentium 4s, including the future Prescott will make sure Apple can't make a dent. SSE2 (SSE3) on Prescott machines in animation or rendering will make sure there is little reason to own a Mac.

--
If I could see the Matrix, I'd tell you I am only seeing 0s inside your head! :tongue: <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 06/29/03 11:46 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
June 30, 2003 3:49:59 AM

SPEC results show very weak FPU compared to the highest end 3GHZ CPU. Assuming Dual Xeon 2.8GHZ can really pack a wallop, I fail to see where the G5 can hurt.
Especially in almost any rendering application which by now has at least one optimization for the Pentium 4's SSE2 or architecture.
We are now with competition of 2*2GHZ G5s, to think that past Macs were renowned for per-clock performance, now it needs 4 billion ticks to possibly perform, and even then a machine that runs at 3GHZ will destroy it. Assuming it has good scalability in Dual mode, it could prolly perform at what a 3GHZ G5 would do. That in other words shows that the P4 has higher IPC in fact than a damn G5. Dunno if I should believe my extrapolation but it just seems to be that.
It's sad Fugger, it just is. Prove us it will kick ass in animation, PROVE US. I am inclined to think a damn 2000$ P4 machine could finish the job faster and won't need half the RAM.
And that 3000$, that doesn't even include the extremely lovely 17" LCD from Apple does it?

--
If I could see the Matrix, I'd tell you I am only seeing 0s inside your head! :tongue:
!