intel's boxed CPU coolers...

in the case for an AMD cpu, yes, so I guess this would be the same for Intel

Add the thermal grease you get in the baggy with the sticker. Thatll lower those temps to about 40 42 ish idle which is fairly good.

-Jeremy

<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=5341387" target="_new">Busting Sh@t Up!!!</A>
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?pcm=1060900" target="_new">Busting More Sh@t Up!!!</A>

I see that you have already replaced your fan, but for those who are thinking of purchasing a new CPU cooler, I highly recommend <A HREF="http://www.frostytech.com/" target="_new">http://www.frostytech.com/</A>. They do extensive thermal performance testing, as well as noise testing. Great site.

<font color=white><b>_________________________________________________</font color=white></b>
Armadillo<font color=orange>[</font color=orange><font color=green>TcC</font color=green><font color=orange>]</font color=orange> at Lanwar and MML

Oh yes, my thoughts exactly

...though I can't wait no longer...I mean just by playing Need For Speed for a few minutes turns the fan into some loud hairdryer running at 4400 RPM. And not even the CoreCenter program could remedy the problem when I'm playing games.

Btw, which CPU fan would you recommend instead of the boxed cooler? If you have a better choice than the GlacialTech, tell me


My system: Intel Pentium 4 3.0, 800FSB / TwinMOS 1Gb DDR400 / MSI *argh* / Sapphire Radeon 9800 Pro / Antec True Power 550W / 2x Western Digital Raptor / Hercules G.T XP /
SamsungDVD / Lite-On CDRW<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by sabbath1 on 07/16/03 06:14 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

Nah Frostytech is just the review site. I've just started looking into CPU coolers... I think its terribly interesting. For such seemingly low-tech devices, they are incredibly complex.

For instance, <A HREF="http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1011" target="_new">Zalman "flower" coolers</A> are pretty darn impressive looking, but other than that, their design is very much flawed. You see, when you talk about heat passing through metal, you can think of it in pretty much the same terms as electricity. That is to say, the thicker the conducter, the less resistance the heat will encounter. With the Zalman coolers being nothing but a sandwich of incredibly thin copper plates, most of the heat dissipation occurs right at the base. The rest of the surface area is mostly wasted, due to the fact that the fins are so thin, and present too much resistance for the heat to travel all the way out to the ends of the fins, rendering much of the heatsink relatively useless. Thats why the Zalman doesn't perform nearly as impressively as it looks.

The same goes for most of the other shiny copper block heatsinks that are flooding the market nowadays. Most of them have a solid base, with fins or pegs rising from the base at a perpindicular angle. They aren't exactly slouches when you put a big nasty fan on them, but with the fins being a constant width, the longer the fin, the higher the resistance the heat encounters as it travels up the fin. It doesn't matter how long the fin is, if there is too much resistance for the heat to make use of it. Its just wasted material, or decoration. There are much smarter designs.

Ideally, you want as thick a base as you can get to allow the heat to efficiently travel to the cooling fins, and you want as many cooling fins as possible. Therefore designs like the <A HREF="http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1397" target="_new">Verax P14Cu</A> heatsink are quite effective. It has a very thick base, that extends outward and up the sides, to give the heat lots of places to travel. Also it has tapered cooling fins, which is a very smart design. As I stated before, the thicker the conductor, the less resistance to heat. So, the most effective fin design would be tapered. After the heat travels to the fin, it begins to dissipate in the air. The more surface area the heat gets to, the faster it can dissipate. Therefore in order to allow the heat to maximize the entire surface area of the fin, you want to present a decent path all the way to the end of the fin.

Another smart design is the <A HREF="http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1260" target="_new">Vantec VP4C7040</A>. Not only does it use tapered fins, but it also has chunky bits of metal arranged in a sort of cross design rising from the core of the heatsink, with fins on each side of the cross. This gives the heat a low-resistance path to each of the fin-covered surface areas of each side of the cross. Very smart indeed, as this essentially quadruples the amount of effective cooling surface area available to the CPU. The thermal tests validate the design, showing this particular HSF to be one of the best Frostytech has tested.

Its not the quietest, but it does use a very nifty <A HREF="http://www.dansdata.com/tmdfan.htm" target="_new">TMD (Tip Magnetic Drive) fan</A>, which is quieter than most, for the amount of air it moves. Most fans are powered by a motor in the hub, while the TMD is driven from the outside, with magnets in the fan blades being repulsed by coils mounted to the outer housing. You could conceivably reduce the speed of the TMD fan to make it quieter, and given the high effectiveness of the heatsink, still have an effective cooling solution.

Also Coolermaster has an innovative solution to the diminishing returns of extra long fins. They use heatpipes in some of their coolers to provide a low-resistance heatpath to the ends of the fins. Read more on that <A HREF="http://dansdata.com/coolercomp_p2.htm#hhc001" target="_new">here</A>.

I've only begun to look at HSFs, but so far, I think the Vantec is the most impressive.

I only glanced at the design of the Glacial Tech 4310 Pro, and its not too bad. No chunky bits for the heat to travel along, but at least it does have very nice tapered fins. Also it appears the fins are not cross cut. As in, rather than a forest of fins, you have fins that are more like parallel walls. Whether this is good or bad is impossible to say without testing. On one hand, they might provide a less resistive heatpath than a forest of fins, on the other hand, the wall design might restrict airflow through the fins. Frostytech doesn't have a review for the 4310 pro, but they do have one for the similar <A HREF="http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1284" target="_new">4300</A>. It was a solid performer, but it was actually 14 decibels <i>louder</i> than the stock Intel cooler. Perhaps that was something that was addressed with the 4310.

Anyway, I've rambled on enough. Hope this info helps!

<font color=white><b>_________________________________________________</font color=white></b>
Armadillo<font color=orange>[</font color=orange><font color=green>TcC</font color=green><font color=orange>]</font color=orange> at Lanwar and MML<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by syndil on 07/16/03 09:54 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

Actually these solid heatpipes don't work that well. You'd probably find a heatsink that size works nearly as good. the reason is because you need a heat differential to allow the fluid to boil off and then condense.

I'd suggest something more conventional like the Zalman CNPS 7000 AlCu.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

Or better yet, proving the effectiveness of extremely large heatsinks. I still don't think the temperature differential of such a design would be optimal, read effective, but at least it's closer to being right than the Coolermaster fake heatpipe.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

I seriously doubt a solid heatsink in the same configuration would be nearly as effective. The NCU-1000 has a relatively thin base, and the U-shaped heatpipe is also quite thin. If it was solid, it would be much too resistive to be effective. If the U was quite a bit thicker, then you might have something.

However I have not seen heatsinks nearly as tall as this one, and if you were to build one just as tall, with a thick tower for a core with fins all along the outside, it would probably would be just as effective. The problem is, when you go that route, you have to consider that you would need to use an incredible amount of raw material, which is probably the main reason we haven't seen any huge brickish coolers. Cost prohibitive. Plus you would proabably run into manufacturing problems with something that large, assuming it would be solid. In fact, if you look at the products available today, it seems that the larger the cooler, the more likely it was built using a much simpler and cheaper process (compared to extrusions), such as sandwiched fins or skived fins. The NCU-1000, on the other hand, despite its freakishly large size, doesn't use very much material and is extremely effective, making it the more sensible design.

Costs aside, my idea for an ideal heatsink would be a huge, upside down pyramid, with the small end mounted to the CPU, and the large end (covered with fins of course), butting out the side of the case, perhaps taking the place of a case window. Logisticly, its not even slightly feasible, but it sure would be an effective cooler!

<font color=white><b>_________________________________________________</font color=white></b>
Armadillo<font color=orange>[</font color=orange><font color=green>TcC</font color=green><font color=orange>]</font color=orange> at Lanwar and MML

Dont you mean sensible heat? Isn't specific heat the amount of heat it takes to warm a certain substance a certain amount? I forget. I know it's not latent heat.

Yes and no. I started out trying to talk about copper's specific heat " the amount of energy in calories required to change 1 gram of material through 1 celcius degree, but did indeed digress into talking about senability of heat or the impact of shape and size on heat disapation. Sorry

What's interesting about the new PIB bundle from AMD is that you can actually now know which one is the new design with the new reference cooler, because the new PIBs carry barcodes and tags. It's gonna be very easy to also deduct those are Tbred Bs or anything recent and good in stepping.

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/html/news.html" target="_new"><font color=purple><b>The official Tom's Hardware Guide Forums Photo Album, click here to contribute!</font color=purple></b></A>

That will be a good feature (thermal protection). I find it amazing that it has taken amd so long to intigrate thermal protection into there cpus after all even PIII's have an intigrated thermal circut that will trip the cpu @ 110c...so the fact that even in amds newest barton cores thermal protection is built on the mainboard is a mystery to me.

There is no smell better than fried silicon

If I understood it correctly, it was with the heatsink-removal video here at THG that AMD was first alerted with this issue that even the Palomino could smoke. After that I assume that AMD thought it was too much trouble to revamp the architecture and add an integrated protection logic. Cost was surely another factor.

My system: Intel Pentium 4 3.0, 800FSB / TwinMOS 1Gb DDR400 / MSI 875P Neo / Sapphire Radeon 9800Pro / Antec TruePower 550W / 2x Western Digital Raptor / Hercules G.T XP /
SamsungDVD / Lite-On CDRW

The P4 circuitry probably doesn't even take more than 5% of the die. So I doubt cost was an issue. Either they couldn't use clock throttling because Intel might sue, or it was because they had no time.

What I still wonder though, is if the circuitry is on-die for the P4, doesn't it still have to send a message (which could delay the mechanism to prevent the burn)to the mainboard's clock generators? Or are these on the CPU itself and therefore it's a matter of nanoseconds before it responds?

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/html/news.html" target="_new"><font color=purple><b>The official Tom's Hardware Guide Forums Photo Album, click here to contribute!</font color=purple></b></A>

i know for sure that the pIII's were totally on die and need no feedback from the mobo to quit...possibly the new p4's are throtalling via muliplyer instead of fsb...if this were the case since the multi is controlled by the cpu then that would mean that the cpu could adjust it @ will.

There is no smell better than fried silicon

well i could test it out i got a pII 233...that doesn't see much use...hehe maybe i could live up to my siggy

There is no smell better than fried silicon

Haha, you do that and tell us what happened!

Someone I trust who is very knowledgable about these things told me that even P2's would survive a heatsink removal. I don't know this myself, but since I trust him, he may be right. Then again, he may not be right...hehe
As long as you don't try to sue me, you're welcome to try though


My system: Intel Pentium 4 3.0, 800FSB / TwinMOS 1Gb DDR400 / MSI 875P Neo / Sapphire Radeon 9800Pro / Antec TruePower 550W / 2x Western Digital Raptor / Hercules G.T XP /
SamsungDVD / Lite-On CDRW

Ah the Deschutes. Was that a PII or a PIII again? Cool to hear that it survived the heatsink removal
It's also totally unbelievable that AMD's first properly working thermal protection comes with Athlon 64/Opteron.

My system: Intel Pentium 4 3.0, 800FSB / TwinMOS 1Gb DDR400 / MSI 875P Neo / Sapphire Radeon 9800Pro / Antec TruePower 550W / 2x Western Digital Raptor / Hercules G.T XP /
SamsungDVD / Lite-On CDRW

NO...where are you reading these temps from...try using motherboard monitor...

There is no smell better than fried silicon

I got it from Asus Probe 2.20.03. How many temperatures will the temps decrease if i use the thermal paste? Do the new proc already have the thermal paste?

and no...they use some sort of thermal pad..greese will help...but as long as you have installed your heatsink right it should be in the 40's.

There is no smell better than fried silicon

Nothing like the smell of Napalm.

Thanks a lot for this info! I took a look at the 4300 cooler, and that is apparently rated much lower in noise than how it actually performs, so the cooler goes back, unopened, to the store.

Now I'm shooting for the upcoming Arctic Cooling Super Silent 4 Pro, that one is supposed to be compatible with my processor.


My system: Intel Pentium 4 3.0, 800FSB / TwinMOS 1Gb DDR400 / MSI 875P Neo / Sapphire Radeon 9800Pro / Antec TruePower 550W / 2x Western Digital Raptor / Hercules G.T XP /
SamsungDVD / Lite-On CDRW

Absolutely. In fact, if done properly, a HSF with a heatpipe should always outperform a similar HSF without one. By "done properly" I mean that the heatpipe is actually a functioning part of the HSF, and not just added for looks, as may come to be the case if heatpipes start to become in vogue. I expect that once they really catch on, there will be lots of cheap immitators using things that may look like heatpipes, but are non-functioning. Just like there are lots of wow-look-at-me heatsinks out there right now that are fairly lousy coolers, done strictly for looks. So beware of that in the future. But for now there are few HSFs that I am aware of that use a heatpipe, and they all seem to work. Coolermaster's designs are a perfect example of how simple and effective adding a heatpipe to a HSF can be. Their <A HREF="http://www.coolermaster.com/retail/product_detail.asp?lang=eng&at=boutique&category_id=1&product_id=11" target="_new">HHC-001</A> is a fairly standard looking heatsink, excepting the heatpipes. The heatpipes simply provide a low resistance heat path to the far ends of the cooling fins. The thin metal fins provide quite a bit of resistance to heat, so the further away from the base a fin is, the less heat it will be able to absorb and dissipate. The heatpipe provides a low resistance heat path to the far ends of the heatsink's fins, making them more effective.

Also I noticed in THG's recent <A HREF="http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20030722/index.html" target="_new">review of mini-PCs</A> that two of the systems use heatpipe heatsinks. Makes perfect sense for such a small enclosure -- not much room for a large HSF, so there is a need to provide an alternate escape path for the heat, in the form of heatpipes. Both the models by Shuttle and Soyo use a heatpipe system for CPU cooling.

Personally I have decided on using a <A HREF="http://www.dansdata.com/ncu1000.htm" target="_new">NCU-1000</A> for my next PC. I intend to build an absolutely silent system, and this heatpipe cooler is so effective that I should be able to get away without using any sort of fan at all in the box, except for the PSU fan. In fact, this cooler doesn't even come with a fan, as it is intended to be used without one. I expect the NCU-1000 to reign supreme as a silent CPU cooler for quite a long time. The design is very intelligent, and the heatpipes used are not your average heatpipe either. Instead of the relatively thick round tubes found in other heatsinks, they use wide, flat heatpipes, filled with small capillaries of working fluid. This provides an even better interface with the heat source, making this heatpipe extraordinarily effective. Also the nature of the tiny capillaries make it more resistant to gravity than a normal heatpipe. If you're as big a nerd as I am, you can click <A HREF="http://www.tsheatronics.co.jp/english/technology/index.html" target="_new">here</A> to learn more about the HeatLane heatpipes in this system. Fascinating stuff, if you're interested in thermodynamics.

<font color=white><b>_________________________________________________</font color=white></b>
Armadillo<font color=orange>[</font color=orange><font color=green>TcC</font color=green><font color=orange>]</font color=orange> at Lanwar and MML

It appears to have begun. Zalman (big shock there) has released a so-called <A HREF="http://www.zalman.co.kr/english/product/zm2hc1.htm" target="_new">heatpipe HDD cooler</A>, only the heatpipes don't go anywhere, just from one side of the HDD to the other! Heatpipes do not work if both ends are attached to a heat source. In this configuration, they are likely to be about as effective as empty copper tubes would be (read: not at all). This product is nothing more than a gimmick, much like their "flower" shaped CPU coolers.

<font color=white><b>_________________________________________________</font color=white></b>
Armadillo<font color=orange>[</font color=orange><font color=green>TcC</font color=green><font color=orange>]</font color=orange> at Lanwar and MML