intel's boxed CPU coolers...

sabbath1

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Ok, so today came the day when I had enough of the awful noise that came from the boxed CPU fan of my P4 3.0. I ordered a GlacialTech fan, the 4310 Pro, capable of 3.2 GHz.

Is it just me, but ain't Intel's coolers a bit overrated? Just like with the 3.06, this boxed cooler may be efficient, but it's also awfully noisy as soon as it gets hot. The noise is almost unbearable.
Any thoughts on this? Or am I doing something wrong?

Also, would I need to use the boxed cooler for not voiding the warranty?


My system: Intel Pentium 4 3.0, 800FSB / TwinMOS 1Gb DDR400 / MSI 875P Neo / Sapphire Radeon 9800 Pro / Antec True Power 550W / 2x Western Digital Raptor / Hercules G.T XP /
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sabbath1

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...Not that I care anyways, I just won't use the boxed fan. I can't stand the noise levels.

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spud

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Add the thermal grease you get in the baggy with the sticker. Thatll lower those temps to about 40 42 ish idle which is fairly good.

-Jeremy

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Crashman

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Use the boxed cooler for a while, then put on a better one if you like. If the CPU fails, just send Intel the used original cooler with it.

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Syndil

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I see that you have already replaced your fan, but for those who are thinking of purchasing a new CPU cooler, I highly recommend <A HREF="http://www.frostytech.com/" target="_new">http://www.frostytech.com/</A>. They do extensive thermal performance testing, as well as noise testing. Great site.

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sabbath1

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Yup, I added that grey paste, still all I got was a new hairdryer :smile:

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sabbath1

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Oh yes, my thoughts exactly ;)

...though I can't wait no longer...I mean just by playing Need For Speed for a few minutes turns the fan into some loud hairdryer running at 4400 RPM. And not even the CoreCenter program could remedy the problem when I'm playing games.

Btw, which CPU fan would you recommend instead of the boxed cooler? If you have a better choice than the GlacialTech, tell me :smile:


My system: Intel Pentium 4 3.0, 800FSB / TwinMOS 1Gb DDR400 / MSI *argh* / Sapphire Radeon 9800 Pro / Antec True Power 550W / 2x Western Digital Raptor / Hercules G.T XP /
SamsungDVD / Lite-On CDRW<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by sabbath1 on 07/16/03 06:14 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

sabbath1

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Nah it's ordered but I can send it back for a little or no loss of money, because I'm usually not sending things back ;)

The fan I ordered was again a GlacialTech Igloo 4310 Pro. So you recommend a FrostyTech fan instead?


My system: Intel Pentium 4 3.0, 800FSB / TwinMOS 1Gb DDR400 / MSI *argh* / Sapphire Radeon 9800 Pro / Antec True Power 550W / 2x Western Digital Raptor / Hercules G.T XP /
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Syndil

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Nah Frostytech is just the review site. I've just started looking into CPU coolers... I think its terribly interesting. For such seemingly low-tech devices, they are incredibly complex.

For instance, <A HREF="http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1011" target="_new">Zalman "flower" coolers</A> are pretty darn impressive looking, but other than that, their design is very much flawed. You see, when you talk about heat passing through metal, you can think of it in pretty much the same terms as electricity. That is to say, the thicker the conducter, the less resistance the heat will encounter. With the Zalman coolers being nothing but a sandwich of incredibly thin copper plates, most of the heat dissipation occurs right at the base. The rest of the surface area is mostly wasted, due to the fact that the fins are so thin, and present too much resistance for the heat to travel all the way out to the ends of the fins, rendering much of the heatsink relatively useless. Thats why the Zalman doesn't perform nearly as impressively as it looks.

The same goes for most of the other shiny copper block heatsinks that are flooding the market nowadays. Most of them have a solid base, with fins or pegs rising from the base at a perpindicular angle. They aren't exactly slouches when you put a big nasty fan on them, but with the fins being a constant width, the longer the fin, the higher the resistance the heat encounters as it travels up the fin. It doesn't matter how long the fin is, if there is too much resistance for the heat to make use of it. Its just wasted material, or decoration. There are much smarter designs.

Ideally, you want as thick a base as you can get to allow the heat to efficiently travel to the cooling fins, and you want as many cooling fins as possible. Therefore designs like the <A HREF="http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1397" target="_new">Verax P14Cu</A> heatsink are quite effective. It has a very thick base, that extends outward and up the sides, to give the heat lots of places to travel. Also it has tapered cooling fins, which is a very smart design. As I stated before, the thicker the conductor, the less resistance to heat. So, the most effective fin design would be tapered. After the heat travels to the fin, it begins to dissipate in the air. The more surface area the heat gets to, the faster it can dissipate. Therefore in order to allow the heat to maximize the entire surface area of the fin, you want to present a decent path all the way to the end of the fin.

Another smart design is the <A HREF="http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1260" target="_new">Vantec VP4C7040</A>. Not only does it use tapered fins, but it also has chunky bits of metal arranged in a sort of cross design rising from the core of the heatsink, with fins on each side of the cross. This gives the heat a low-resistance path to each of the fin-covered surface areas of each side of the cross. Very smart indeed, as this essentially quadruples the amount of effective cooling surface area available to the CPU. The thermal tests validate the design, showing this particular HSF to be one of the best Frostytech has tested.

Its not the quietest, but it does use a very nifty <A HREF="http://www.dansdata.com/tmdfan.htm" target="_new">TMD (Tip Magnetic Drive) fan</A>, which is quieter than most, for the amount of air it moves. Most fans are powered by a motor in the hub, while the TMD is driven from the outside, with magnets in the fan blades being repulsed by coils mounted to the outer housing. You could conceivably reduce the speed of the TMD fan to make it quieter, and given the high effectiveness of the heatsink, still have an effective cooling solution.

Also Coolermaster has an innovative solution to the diminishing returns of extra long fins. They use heatpipes in some of their coolers to provide a low-resistance heatpath to the ends of the fins. Read more on that <A HREF="http://dansdata.com/coolercomp_p2.htm#hhc001" target="_new">here</A>.

I've only begun to look at HSFs, but so far, I think the Vantec is the most impressive.

I only glanced at the design of the Glacial Tech 4310 Pro, and its not too bad. No chunky bits for the heat to travel along, but at least it does have very nice tapered fins. Also it appears the fins are not cross cut. As in, rather than a forest of fins, you have fins that are more like parallel walls. Whether this is good or bad is impossible to say without testing. On one hand, they might provide a less resistive heatpath than a forest of fins, on the other hand, the wall design might restrict airflow through the fins. Frostytech doesn't have a review for the 4310 pro, but they do have one for the similar <A HREF="http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1284" target="_new">4300</A>. It was a solid performer, but it was actually 14 decibels <i>louder</i> than the stock Intel cooler. Perhaps that was something that was addressed with the 4310.

Anyway, I've rambled on enough. Hope this info helps!

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Armadillo<font color=orange>[</font color=orange><font color=green>TcC</font color=green><font color=orange>]</font color=orange> at Lanwar and MML<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by syndil on 07/16/03 09:54 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

Syndil

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Update: Dan' Data has reviewed another exremely interesting design. It's called the <A HREF="http://www.dansdata.com/ncu1000.htm" target="_new">NCU-1000</A>. It uses an extremely tall, U-shaped heat pipe to provide an efficient heatpath to fins attached to the U. According to Dan, it doesn't perform very well with no fan at all, but if you move even a little air by it, it does quite well. Perhaps the PSU fan would be enough to make this gizmo work. Very neat idea. And just yesterday I was wondering why heatpipes were not more widely used.

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Crashman

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Actually these solid heatpipes don't work that well. You'd probably find a heatsink that size works nearly as good. the reason is because you need a heat differential to allow the fluid to boil off and then condense.

I'd suggest something more conventional like the Zalman CNPS 7000 AlCu.

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Syndil

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True, the Zalman 7000 versions are excellent heatsinks. Much better than their "flower" types. They have one of the best combinations of low/noise and cooling, and plus they still look pretty darn cool.

However, from a design standpoint, heatpipes really make a lot of sense in <i>adding</i> to the effectiveness of <i>any</i> heatsink by providing a low resistance heatpath to the far end of the cooling fins, making them much more effective.

The NCU-1000 simply took this to the extreme by using a heatpipe as the primary heatpath. It is advertised by the manufacturer as a heatsink that requires NO fan at all. And Dan's performance test seems to confirm that it would work quite well in such a configuration, as long as there is even just a tiny amount of airflow through the case. With a super-quiet sub-two-watt case fan pointed at it from several inches away, he was able to achieve 0.5°C/W. For comparison, the best cooler he has tested, the Thermalright SLK-800, achieved 0.46°C/W, but thats with a ridiculously loud 16.2 watt 80mm fan on it!! When you put the dead balls silent NCU-1000 in that perspective, it sounds pretty damned effective to me, proving the effectiveness of the heatpipe used.

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Crashman

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proving the effectiveness of the heatpipe used
Or better yet, proving the effectiveness of extremely large heatsinks. I still don't think the temperature differential of such a design would be optimal, read effective, but at least it's closer to being right than the Coolermaster fake heatpipe.

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eden

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You are right about overrating the Intel coolers. The 2.4 533MT retail cooler of my friend's system might be low dBA, but its frequency as Lars put it, is bad, so it is as noisy as a 50dBA fan, simply because it "whines" too much. My cousins' P3 does that. I don't want such in my system. Hope AMD's new boxed coolers which tout to be silent, are realistic in their claim.

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Syndil

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I seriously doubt a solid heatsink in the same configuration would be nearly as effective. The NCU-1000 has a relatively thin base, and the U-shaped heatpipe is also quite thin. If it was solid, it would be much too resistive to be effective. If the U was quite a bit thicker, then you might have something.

However I have not seen heatsinks nearly as tall as this one, and if you were to build one just as tall, with a thick tower for a core with fins all along the outside, it would probably would be just as effective. The problem is, when you go that route, you have to consider that you would need to use an incredible amount of raw material, which is probably the main reason we haven't seen any huge brickish coolers. Cost prohibitive. Plus you would proabably run into manufacturing problems with something that large, assuming it would be solid. In fact, if you look at the products available today, it seems that the larger the cooler, the more likely it was built using a much simpler and cheaper process (compared to extrusions), such as sandwiched fins or skived fins. The NCU-1000, on the other hand, despite its freakishly large size, doesn't use very much material and is extremely effective, making it the more sensible design.

Costs aside, my idea for an ideal heatsink would be a huge, upside down pyramid, with the small end mounted to the CPU, and the large end (covered with fins of course), butting out the side of the case, perhaps taking the place of a case window. Logisticly, its not even slightly feasible, but it sure would be an effective cooler!

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endyen

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The idea of a hsf setup is to disapate heat. This involves specific heat, or the transfer of heat to a second medium (air in this case, though sometimes water or coolant) This invariably includes surface area, as the larger the surface area, the larger the transfer interface. That is why you see lots of fins,surface area, and not too many blocks. No matter what the material the best transfer is achieved with the largest possible contact area.
 

siranthony

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Dont you mean sensible heat? Isn't specific heat the amount of heat it takes to warm a certain substance a certain amount? I forget. I know it's not latent heat.
 

Syndil

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Your logic sound. However, a large surface area is completely useless if the heat is unable to reach it. If there is too much resistance between the heat source and the cooling surface, then that area becomes wasted. You need to provide the heat a low resistance path to the cooling surface. And with metal, the thinner it is, the more resistance it will have. For example, if you were to attach a thin, long wire to the top of your CPU, and weld the end of the wire to an enormous industrial sized heatsink, it would have a lot of surface area. However it would not be an effective cooler, as the heat would not be able to travel down the wire to get to the heatsink. So the heat needs a relatively chunky piece of metal to travel through in order to get to the cooling surface.

Most common CPU coolers have only a modestly thick base, thereby limiting their design to one cooling surface, the top of the base. Hence most HSFs are simply thick bases with a bunch of fins sticking out the top. However if you were to make the base a tall thick tower, instead of simply a thick plate, the heat would have a low resistance path from the top to the bottom of the tower. Now you could use not only the top, but also the sides of the tower as cooling surfaces, greatly increasing the amount of surface area the heat can travel to and disspate.

However, like I said, that would be both expensive and difficult to manufacture, which is why you don't see any HSFs like that.

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endyen

Splendid
Yes and no. I started out trying to talk about copper's specific heat " the amount of energy in calories required to change 1 gram of material through 1 celcius degree, but did indeed digress into talking about senability of heat or the impact of shape and size on heat disapation. Sorry
 

sabbath1

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The 2.4 533MT retail cooler of my friend's system might be low dBA, but its frequency as Lars put it, is bad, so it is as noisy as a 50dBA fan, simply because it "whines" too much.

Probably is the case with my 3.0 fan too. It's ok at low temps but as soon as the CPU gets hotter, even the excellent MSI Core Center program, (which is the only reason I can still bare the fan), have to capitulate. In games, the fan gets really loud, maxing out at 4400 RPM so far. It's effective though, because at no matter the load on the CPU, the temps have never exceeded 60 degrees, guess that's the limit of what the fan tolerates.

Hope AMD's new boxed coolers which tout to be silent, are realistic in their claim.

The XP3000+ fan was actually very good, both effective and pretty silent. So AMD's new coolers are probably even better. I'm sorry Intel, but AMD gets the crown of low noise from me :smile:


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eden

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What's interesting about the new PIB bundle from AMD is that you can actually now know which one is the new design with the new reference cooler, because the new PIBs carry barcodes and tags. It's gonna be very easy to also deduct those are Tbred Bs or anything recent and good in stepping.

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sabbath1

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Yeah it's a brilliant new move from AMD. More of these intiatives are necessary from AMD if they want to compete with Intel on the quality-of-product sector. One must never forget that the new Athlon 64 will, just as Opteron already do, have integrated thermal protection as well as the protective heatspreader. If the performance of the processor indeed is up to the P4 3.2, then AMD might have a very good going with the near future. But even if Athlon 64 3400+ is no faster than the XP3200+ is, at least I, would always recommend it in front of the Athlon XP, (if the price is right of course), because of these new quality features. I was always worried about smoking my AXP. Always...


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pIII_Man

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That will be a good feature (thermal protection). I find it amazing that it has taken amd so long to intigrate thermal protection into there cpus after all even PIII's have an intigrated thermal circut that will trip the cpu @ 110c...so the fact that even in amds newest barton cores thermal protection is built on the mainboard is a mystery to me.

There is no smell better than fried silicon :evil:
 

eden

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What kind of thermal protection are we talking about and where did you read up on that?

There was already a thermal protection mechanism using the on-die diode, ever since Palomino. It was an auto-shutoff mechanism, which only had to signal the mainboard to turn off.

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