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Can you bash AMD and look @ yaself in the mirror

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July 16, 2003 7:51:04 AM

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=10500

Intel just turned in almost a billion dollar profit for the quarter

Intel is dominant...full of cash ...R&D cash up the wazoo to design powerful chips..and advertising dollars to make the lemming believe whateva intel wants them too

Intel has the cash to throw up fabs like its making waffles.

on the other hand you have lil AMD... bleeding red ink every quarter... teetering on bankruptcy.... with lil money to spend on anything. and fighting a behemoth with only one bullet in the gun named hammer.

but it makes u feel BIG to attack a wounded bloody animal trying to hunt for a scrap.

the people who attack AMD and root for INTEL are the same people who rooted for Darth Vader to crush the rebellion.

Then on top of that we all know INTEL is running the bully game trying to stillborn HAMMER... i cant whine over that cus that just good business tactics

but how can u root for a company that already won... has everything going for it and enough cash to buy several countries.

as long as AMD stays the lil broke no good second tier nobody... who somehow spins cotton into gold... they will get my dollar.

i am sure i am in the majority here.

I will not support INTEL in any shape or form.... let the skinny dog eat some.

More about : bash amd yaself mirror

July 16, 2003 8:15:22 AM

Chiil Pope, somebody's got to take the sucker's money.
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July 16, 2003 9:07:17 AM

Fanboys... gotta love 'em. No, wait.. no you don't.

<font color=white><b>_________________________________________________</font color=white></b>
Armadillo<font color=orange>[</font color=orange><font color=green>TcC</font color=green><font color=orange>]</font color=orange> at Lanwar and MML
July 16, 2003 10:48:37 AM

Actually, its called a MONOPOLY.

Ford vs GM vs Chrysler vs HONDA vs Toyota vs Hyundai vs BMW vs Porche vs Volkswagaon etc is called capitalism.

AMD holds an amazing 15% or so of the market, with no advertising budget or marketing might of Intel.

Of course, if Intel kept their prices at their normal rate, many of these "intel lovers" wouldn't own these machines :) 



Amiga - The Original Power
July 16, 2003 12:53:02 PM

ain't that what all the companies and even the countries do?
July 16, 2003 1:07:56 PM

Quote:
i cant whine over that cus that just good business tactics

You can't whine over that, but you can whine about pretty much anything else, apparently.

I'm sorry about this mess in your head, but I usually choose a processor based on how much money I have and what kind of performance I'll get. AMD and Intel is not my struggle and not my battle to fight. Those are my thoughts.

<font color=red><b>M</b></font color=red>ephistopheles
July 16, 2003 1:11:07 PM

Yeah! You're so spot on dude! I love ya!

I mean why should <b>I</b> spend <b>my</b> money on a product that gives me <i>more</i> performance and that I can absolutely trust, when I could instead spend my money on a product that performs <i>worse</i> and at this rate may not even be around as long as my retail waranty?

Who cares about getting the most value for my quid? Money grows on trees, right?

AMD all the way! Long live the AXP3200! God save the Queen!

Wait, what am I talking about? AMD ain't got shat compared to Apple! The Mac G5 rulez!!!!!!!!!!

"<i>Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they <b>ARE</b> your equals.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
July 16, 2003 2:03:20 PM

Man that is some great reasoning:

If you put out a second rate product that can't compare but remain the underdog I will buy from you.

*boggle*

Wtf. Under that assumption you should buy yourself a nice matrox card that won't run any current games well. I mean there was a time when matrox was a hell of a good card to own... and they're definetly not top of the heap now and we need comp.

Personally, I'll keep with buying the components that I think do a *good* job... I think if a company develops a superior product they should be rewarded with my money when I choose to buy... if they put out an utter piece of crap they don't deserve to have my cash.

Edit: Just for reference I'm 26, 2/4/77. I don't think age has anything to do with functional maturity and especially not with opinion on what is better. High-end computer performance to price definetly goes to intel, mid and low are definetly amd. No questions asked... especially when a 2.6c ($200) outperforms amds that cost quite a bit more ($240-$450). Once you drop below the top 10-15% of the market however, amd's prices get sweet. Just depends what segment of the market you are in and building for.

Shadus<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Shadus on 07/16/03 11:43 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
July 16, 2003 2:06:43 PM

I completely agree. Your post got me riled up and I feel a major rant coming on...
first you must understand most nerds buy and support whatever they believe is the best at the moment.
I go by whatever is the best deal myself, today I feel its AMD and has been for sometime. Some would support AMD even if they were "junk", acting much like a paladin or maybe even robin hood. Thank god for those people! :smile:

Its like buying a 500HP V8 truck when you use it as you would need a 200HP V6 truck, then proceeding to claim that every model of truck produced by the company who makes the 500HP truck is superior to the 200HP truck producer, which is rarely true and flexing such muscle is usually a sign of fear.
The nerds see a 500HP truck, then root for it.

In this case, dare we say, is a near monopoly.
A REAL monopoly, not like microsoft which all bandwagon nerds seem to love to hate also.

Intel produces a physical product, you HAVE to buy it to get one, how many people here own a honest to god bought copy of Windows ANYTHING?
But you all had to buy your intel cpus, therefore a billion dollar profit for a quarter.
Not that microsoft isnt making money.. but I feel more sympanthy for intels competition than microsofts.

MS gets specifically targeted by hackers, their OS's are prime for piracy.. all the time.
So we kind of get them back for their leadership position, and we get them back plenty i feel.

But when the enthusiasts root for something DELL uses.. encourages others to actually buy the overpriced crap, then lo and behold, rather very few, IF ANY use a 3.2 Ghz P4, let alone a 3.06. <b>You find them using the 'budget' P4s, something AMD is scorned for being!</b>

I consider myself an enthusiast, a patriot and a nerd, yet highly disagree with all currently fashionable nerd opinions (anti MS, pro Intel, pro ATI).
I go bang for the buck, and its still AMD IMHO.

Would I buy intel again? Only if they cheapen up their prices. And thats not going to happen anytime soon with their odvious pummeling of AMD/VIA/whoever else makes consumer CPUs.

This is a bad example of capitalism, we all know from AMDs last couple years of performance they have earned more than to end up still struggling... something is apparantly gone wrong (monopoly).

Something else to think about, people rant and rave about how you need a non optimized benchmark for 3D cards such as 3dmark to judge things fairly... so then these same people continue to think differently when comparing their Hyper Threading CPUs to AMD when the application isnt optimized for intel. Then, they dont want to see the fair comparison.. only the 'newest' games, convienent.

The popular opinion in these forums popegold, is pro intel.. you really arent the majority anymore.
There are a certain 1 or 2 intel fanboys who will trounce on you and anyone agreeing with you in this thread that exist in this forum and will make you (even if you are not,) FEEL like a minority!

Maybe if we could get the liberals to attack Intel like they do MS/tobacco companies the gov't will extort all of intels money too.

One final word for ya pope, you have to understand these 'bashers' are pretty young, I myself am only 21 and I'm actually old compared to many on this forum.
Most PC users bought their first around 1995 when Intels dancing jumpsuit men premiered.. and those are the older ones! Imagine the lack of experience by the younger ones.
I started on a Commodore 64 myself, not really ancient but what I would consider near a minimum time watching the industry to draw semi experienced conclusions.
Most adults with such 'longterm' experience, dont even post in these places.
I'm not one to say a under 18yr olds opinion doesnt matter, it does to me and should to others (who is the future? usually not the person ignoring a youngin), but you have to take that in consideration before letting it get under your skin.

Now hearing a 50yr old computer lifer say something so blatantly fan boyistic would be disturbing, not at 16 though.

So the answer to your question is, when they look in the mirror, they are usually popping zits.

Athlon 1700+, Epox 8RDA (NForce2), Maxtor Diamondmax Plus 9 80GB 8MB cache, 2x256mb Crucial PC2100 in Dual DDR, Geforce 3, Audigy, Z560s, MX500
July 16, 2003 2:06:47 PM

We are reaching the end times. The Dawn of monopoly Desktop marketing.

Yep there ya go..<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by pirox on 07/16/03 10:10 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
July 16, 2003 2:09:13 PM

To hell with AMD and Intel <i>and</i> Crapple/Crapintosh! My next PC is going to be a Z80 powered monster, just like my <A HREF="http://www.rex6000.org/index.html" target="_new">Rex 6000</A>!

<font color=white><b>_________________________________________________</font color=white></b>
Armadillo<font color=orange>[</font color=orange><font color=green>TcC</font color=green><font color=orange>]</font color=orange> at Lanwar and MML
July 16, 2003 2:22:11 PM

oh and this

<i>Of course, if Intel kept their prices at their normal rate, many of these "intel lovers" wouldn't own these machines :) </i>

speaks volumes.

Again the intel buyers are still budget tightwads, they just accuse AMD people of doing it (as if its a bad thing) because AMD users dont hide it.
Holding up your intel (with a disco outfit) doesnt really make you better than the guy showing everyone his AMD (without the dancing disco man outfit).
Because when intel no longer fears AMD, your not only going to have a intel without a cool outfit, but you'll have half a intel also.. I'll take my AMD today and not risk recieving half an intel at twice the price tomorrow.

Athlon 1700+, Epox 8RDA (NForce2), Maxtor Diamondmax Plus 9 80GB 8MB cache, 2x256mb Crucial PC2100 in Dual DDR, Geforce 3, Audigy, Z560s, MX500
July 16, 2003 2:37:35 PM

This all is starting to look like a trick. I doubt if INTEL will still be cheap tommorow.

Yep there ya go..
July 16, 2003 2:45:09 PM

Umm.. what??? I don't understand the part about the disco outfits... lol

<font color=white><b>_________________________________________________</font color=white></b>
Armadillo<font color=orange>[</font color=orange><font color=green>TcC</font color=green><font color=orange>]</font color=orange> at Lanwar and MML
July 16, 2003 3:06:40 PM

Eh could it be true that money is limiting AMD?Do you think that if AMD was injected with a free 5 Billion dollars tommorow that they're engineer's can show us a thing or two?

Yep there ya go..<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by pirox on 07/16/03 11:07 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
July 16, 2003 3:11:59 PM

a reference to the intel commercials.. yeah it was a strange way of putting it
you'll have that :smile:

Athlon 1700+, Epox 8RDA (NForce2), Maxtor Diamondmax Plus 9 80GB 8MB cache, 2x256mb Crucial PC2100 in Dual DDR, Geforce 3, Audigy, Z560s, MX500
July 16, 2003 5:19:23 PM

Quote:
Eh could it be true that money is limiting AMD?Do you think that if AMD was injected with a free 5 Billion dollars tommorow that they're engineer's can show us a thing or two?

Engineers nothing! AMD's faults:

BIG - Extremely mismanaged: AMD has missed so many opportunities and made a considerable number of bad choices. Frankly it is a wonder that AMD even continues to exist. Only very recently has their management <i>finally</i> shown any indication of trying to run the company well.

Moderate - Poor production capabilities: If your supply can't meet an increase in demand then you have no reason to try to improve your marketing to raise the demand.

Moderate - Pathetic marketing: Product recognition is virtually nil amongst the average computer purchaser. Actual reasons for purchasing an AMD-based PC are often neglected in what little advertising AMD does. Not many people buy AMD because not many even know of AMD and even if they do know of, they still often don't know why.

Moderate - Engineering: AMD has been delaying the Clawhammer/A64 for <i>how</i> long now? This might not have been so bad except that AMD has also been almost completely neglecting the AXP in the mean time. If AMD had just spent more time increasing the IPC of their AXPs then they would have been much better off at this point. Now they have A64, a much-delayed product that likely won't be nearly as amazing as it should have been because Intel has had more than enough time to match it's performance, and AXPs which have barely improved their IPC and so are almost nothing more than simple clock-speed ramps.

small - AMD doesn't make their own chipsets: It's hard to have a rock-stable motherboard with great performance when you have VIA making the majority of your chipsets. The only reason that this is small instead of Moderate is because nVidia is saving AMD's arse with the nForce2.

small - Processor rating system: AMD's ratings for their CPUs <i>used</i> to mean something. (Not what AMD claimed, but at least <i>something</i> as they always matched or beat an equivalent P4.) Now the ratings are just pathetic as the IPC of the AXP has increased very little while the IPC of the P4 has jumped by leaps and bounds. It wouldn't be a concern at all except that the prices are driven by the rating and frankly AMD's top-end CPUs are thusly being overpriced compared to the performance that they give you.

So basically if AMD had a free 5 billion dollars to blow, they'd be <i>best</i> off spending it on a new FAB and advertising (including TV commercials) that highlights AMD's low cost at the low-to-mid end, as well as aiming Opteron advertising at the 64-bit server market to convince people that Opteron makes a stable and inexpensive server.

If AMD wants to pull themselves out of a ditch they should:

1) Work on seperating their low-end from their middle-end so that <i>only</i> the low-end processors are priced at a point that makes AMD no money. AMD's problem now is that their middle-end processors are priced so low that they're still not making any real money from those sales. The middle-end processors are what <i>should</i> be AMD's bread-and-butter money-makers, not a big drain on their profits. And the only way to do this is to clearly seperate low-end from middle-end and make the low-end performance so poor that people really have a reason to purchase middle-end.

2) They <b>HAVE</b> to both increase production <b>AND</b> increase product recognition. This is meaningless however if they can't fix #1. OEMs won't highlight AMD solutions if the average SOHO PC purchaser doesn't even know AMD. AMD shouldn't target their enthusiasts and shouldn't target the OEMs. They should target the average idiot watching TV, and more importantly their kids. Kids like games. Parents buy PCs for kids. Target kids and you've gone a long way. <i>Then</i> wine-and-dine OEMs. And only when all of this is done and going smoothly should you market to the people who are already your fans.

We can blame Intel and a supposed monopoly on AMD's poor acceptance all we want, but the truth is AMD dug their own ditch. They had plenty of opportunities to play on their performance advantages in the past to market to the average PC purchaser. They had plenty of opportunities to convince businesses that AMD-based platforms are just as compatible and stable as Intel <i>and</i> cost less. They had plenty of opportunities to convince the average PC purchaser that AMD-based systems can save money. AMD also had opportunites to increase their FAB space and even partner with other electronics manufacturers for shared-FABs, yet they pretty much passed on these as well.

AMD's situation is purely because their management has had numerous opportunities to take hold of advantages while they were there, and yet not done so. AMD's own worst enemy has not been Intel. It has been AMD.

"<i>Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they <b>ARE</b> your equals.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
July 16, 2003 6:28:56 PM

I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for a multi-billion dollar semi-conductor firm. The fact that its competing with an even bigger multi-billion dollar semi-conductor firm makes no difference. Pity for a company that has more in net assets than I will probably earn in my lifetime? The minute I see the CEO and executives of AMD out in the street begging for money, maybe then I'll start "giving them a break" and buy one of their processors out of pity. Until then, I'm a consumer, they're a company, I buy what I like and I'll critisize them for not meeting my needs as well as another company, end of story.
I just have to love these self-righteous, deluded fanboys. If you want a good cause to devote yourself to, I hear Greenpeace is looking for members.

"We are Microsoft, resistance is futile." - Bill Gates, 2015.
July 16, 2003 6:35:22 PM

Quote:
I just have to love these self-righteous, deluded fanboys. If you want a good cause to devote yourself to, I hear Greenpeace is looking for members.

Agreed, vote two! Indeed. :smile:

<font color=red><b>M</b></font color=red>ephistopheles
July 16, 2003 6:35:33 PM

This is ridiculous....

Quote:
Intel just turned in almost a billion dollar profit for the quarter

Intel is dominant...full of cash ...R&D cash up the wazoo to design powerful chips..and advertising dollars to make the lemming believe whateva intel wants them too

So, it's Intel's fault that it made money, and has money to have R&D and advertising? Yeah, good arguement, for what? That AMD doesn't have money? But that's Intel's fault, right? No, that's mainly AMD "supporters" who believe that AMD has no right to raise it's prices, because in the good old days, AMD was the king of price/performance, even at the risk of losing capital. That's what is happening now...

Quote:
on the other hand you have lil AMD... bleeding red ink every quarter... teetering on bankruptcy.... with lil money to spend on anything. and fighting a behemoth with only one bullet in the gun named hammer.

Again, how exactly is this intel's fault? Or even any AMD basher's fault? I don't remember hearing AMD executives blaming bashers or intel for their $100 million Q2 drop in profits, no, they blamed SARS and a weak Eastern economy.

Also, who has been delaying A64 for, it seems like years. If you don't think that has any effect on the situation, then nothing will. Not to mention the reviews of their latest CPUs getting the once over due to PR ratings that don't seem to apply anymore, but are still used.

The rest of your post made no sense. You can be an AMD supporter all you like, but quit the drama. If you want to truly support AMD, quit crying and buy some of their stocks, so they can the cash flow that you claim they lack so much because of Intel's influence. Other than that, this is nothing but a bash at Intel....

And to answer your question: Yes, I can bash AMD and look @ myself in the mirror, because I can compare the AMD products today with those of the past and easily claim that AMD's once valued and highly talked about performance to price ratio is no longer there. When people say that their 2000+XP or even 1700+XP CPU is still better than 3200+XP in price/performance, who is to blame???

Go buy some AMD stock....or you're just another person who would rather talk about how AMD is hurting, but won't help.



How many watts does it take to get the center of CPU core?
July 16, 2003 6:38:16 PM

*cheer* Go Go Go!

Shadus
July 16, 2003 6:41:51 PM

Brovo, I totally agree with you.

I don't know where this guys were when AMD was ahead and making tons of money in early 1999 to late 2000. They were ahead in Mhz. A new processor was getting released montly with about 100Mhz more power. They coundn't meet demand. They practically sold everything they made in their fab.

So what happend to the money AMD made during this peak time. They should have invested it to build more FABs. You know "real man owns fab" right. Or they could have also spent this money on improving their Athlon core or even getting head start on Athlon 64.

This reminds me of an artical Intel Put out when AMD released their T-Bird. It said something like AMD was eating into their future. I don't know the exact details but it had something to do with AMD implementing .13u features in .18u process technology. I wonder if AMD now regrets doing this.

KG

"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity." - Sarah Chambers
July 16, 2003 6:44:30 PM

Quote:
This is ridiculous....

Of course it is. Help good David in his struggle against evil Goliath. Why is goliath evil? Oh, that's because he's so big. And why is David any better? Ooooh, because he's so small... :smile:

<font color=red><b>M</b></font color=red>ephistopheles
July 16, 2003 6:58:11 PM

Talking about CEO's. Look at the chart in the following article by CNET.

<A HREF="http://news.com.com/2100-1001-890695.html" target="_new">Jerry</A>

Summary
AMD vs. Intel
Category AMD Intel
2001 market share 20.2% 78.7%
2000 market share 16.7% 82.2%
2001 revenue $3.9 billion $26.5 billion
2001 earnings $28.9 million $3.4 billion
2001 CEO pay $3.5 million $1.9 million + Options

So when AMD was making money in 2001. The CEO made about 3.5 million in pay. But if you look at Intel's CEO who made little more then 1/2 of what AMD's CEO made. So if AMD makes ~15% of what Intel makes how come their CEO is makeing more then Intel's CEO.

KG

"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity." - Sarah Chambers
July 16, 2003 7:00:27 PM

Quote:
Of course it is. Help good David in his struggle against evil Goliath. Why is goliath evil? Oh, that's because he's so big. And why is David any better? Ooooh, because he's so small... :smile:

Careful or the next thing you know we'll have this AMD lemming claiming that 'God' told him to support AMD and that Intel is run by Satan himself.

And hell, then we'll have one massive religion melee where everyone is either for or against Christianity but no one seems to remember the hundreds of other religions out there.

And then Fredi will have to shut down the whole forum because the bandwidth of the flames will get so high that it'll keep crashing the server.

Do we <i>really</i> want that?

;) 

He he he he he.

"<i>Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they <b>ARE</b> your equals.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
July 16, 2003 10:38:35 PM

poopy?? is that you. how's the sheep shagging? btw is it ok to root for amd and intel or no????
July 16, 2003 10:40:36 PM

Quote:
Intel just turned in almost a billion dollar profit for the quarter

So what? Profits often mean the company has been working hard. And in this case, it's true.

Quote:
Intel is dominant...full of cash ...R&D cash up the wazoo to design powerful chips..and advertising dollars to make the lemming believe whateva intel wants them too

Every company that wants to survive, should want to advertise their products, in one way or another. Hey, never heard of "AMD Me"? The chance is next to none that you haven't. Please, tell me what's so much more ethic with AMD's marketing?

Quote:
Intel has the cash to throw up fabs like its making waffles.

Once again, good work makes more money which in turn makes more fabs.

Quote:
on the other hand you have lil AMD... bleeding red ink every quarter... teetering on bankruptcy.... with lil money to spend on anything. and fighting a behemoth with only one bullet in the gun named hammer.

Like someone said, that is only AMD's fault. While certainly tragic (AMD is a fine company), it's, at least, my truth.

Quote:
but it makes u feel BIG to attack a wounded bloody animal trying to hunt for a scrap.

I would, if they make stupid things, like their marketing tactics of late; eg: the XP3000+ is only 67 mhz faster than the XP2800+, but still there's a 200 PR points difference. Etc.
I bash Intel too, whenever they do stupid, unethical things.

Quote:
the people who attack AMD and root for INTEL are the same people who rooted for Darth Vader to crush the rebellion.

Oh please. That line is as immature as ever.

Quote:
Then on top of that we all know INTEL is running the bully game trying to stillborn HAMMER... i cant whine over that cus that just good business tactics

Maybe they do speak bad about Hammer, I don't know. I've not seen this "confirmed" anywhere though. If it's true, then sure, it's bad from Intels side. No doubt. But they're not exactly the first company who has employees taking advantage of these situations, to trashtalk their competitors.

Quote:
but how can u root for a company that already won... has everything going for it and enough cash to buy several countries.

I root for a product, not a company, that is, not anymore. I think you should too... just for your own good.

Quote:
as long as AMD stays the lil broke no good second tier nobody... who somehow spins cotton into gold... they will get my dollar.

I'm sure Intels first product was a ball of cotton.

Quote:
i am sure i am in the majority here.

I sure hope not. It's far too easy to just bash every wealthy company just because of their money and/or power. If it never occured to you, I can tell you that there's lots of nice and ethical wealthy companies, and there's definitely quite some poor, at the line of bankruptcy companies that don't behave very well either. Meaning: There's plenty of good, both wealthy and unwealthy companies, as well as there's plenty of badly behaving wealthy and unwealthy companies.
Take Microsoft for instance. They have sure done some very bad things, like trying to actively monopolize the market, but they also do good stuff such as donating money to those in need. Thus in most companies, there's some good points too.

Quote:
I will not support INTEL in any shape or form.... let the skinny dog eat some.

Too bad for you. How come AMD gets all the praise in the world no matter how good their products or marketing is for the moment? Lately, they've done poor marketing and have had a higher price for worse performance in some cases, than the Intel CPU's had. I switched to Intel again because I thought they had more to offer for the moment. My processor before this P4 3.0 was an AMD 3000+.


My system: Intel Pentium 4 3.0, 800FSB / TwinMOS 1Gb DDR400 / MSI *argh* / Sapphire Radeon 9800 Pro / Antec True Power 550W / 2x Western Digital Raptor / Hercules G.T XP /
SamsungDVD / Lite-On CDRW
July 16, 2003 10:45:27 PM

hey, Mephisto, how did you get "Old Hand" already? I thought you just turned into an "Addict" just the other week :smile:

My system: Intel Pentium 4 3.0, 800FSB / TwinMOS 1Gb DDR400 / MSI *argh* / Sapphire Radeon 9800 Pro / Antec True Power 550W / 2x Western Digital Raptor / Hercules G.T XP /
SamsungDVD / Lite-On CDRW
a b à CPUs
July 16, 2003 10:50:05 PM

AMD did this to themselves. A lot of it was under pressure from investors.

Several news sites, and even Intel, blamed the price war for falling margins. AMD announced their intent to put an end to the price wars by focussing on the midrange PC and letting Intel have the performance market. This made sense because the midrange market is high volume, while the top end market it very low volume. Using this marketing strategy, it makes one wonder why AMD bothered to release a CPU called the XP3200+. But then when you looked at the price, you could see that this was priced well above the most expensive processor Intel had to offer at the time, no price war!

AMD licensed out part of their new FAB to Motorola in order to keep investors from suing them over the construction of their most expensive project to date. The had also been sued by investors for spending too much money developing the original Athlon, even though AMD needed it in order to stay in the CPU industry!

So short sighted investors bully AMD into NOT doing what they need to succeed. Whenever AMD spends money, investors threaten to sue! Heck, they even had a VERY successfull ad campaign started, the Bullettrain comercial, which they pulled because...noone would allow them to spend money on advertising!

And now they're tapped out on technology. They need a new core. The A64 looks like a redisigned Athlon in many ways, it can't get the MHz AMD needs to put them back on top. It would have to run at least 2.5GHz to compare to Intel's offerings at release date.

AMD needs to spend money in order to get on top, and it doesn't look like that's going to happen, so...they will stay at the bottom a while longer, then if nothing develops, go broke. It can't be helped.

Yugo used to be the smallest "major manufacturer" of cars for the U.S. market, did you buy one?

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
July 16, 2003 11:22:35 PM

please point out in my post where i am saying INTEL is satan. My whole point ws against people who put down AMD and praise intel no matter what. You can equally bash both companies..... there are guys here who wouldnt piss on there mothers if they was on fire if it meant putting down INTEL.

thats my point. It easy for me to be a LAKER FAN and put down the clippers. No matter what the clippers did to put them selves in the hole.... its the nature of some people to latch on to a winner to make themselves look better.

if u bash AMD and INTEL equally when they [-peep-] up... i have no problem with that.
July 16, 2003 11:25:12 PM

<<So, it's Intel's fault that it made money, and has money to have R&D and advertising? Yeah, good arguement, for what?>>>

uhhh did i say that.... they are SUPPOSE to have all the money and all the power... the did what they had to do to get where they are.

they SUPPOSE to be kicking AMD in the ass...

i just have problems with ELITISTS who jump on INTELS' dick and bash AMD.... let AMD be on top... and they will still do anything to find ways to bash AMD
July 16, 2003 11:27:58 PM

didnt know your mom likes to called SHEEP... but i am shaggin her to death every night

and yes its fine to like AMD and INTEL

my post is against INTEL ELITISTS not INTEL FANS

there is a big difference
July 16, 2003 11:31:54 PM

<<<I thought they had more to offer for the moment. My processor before this P4 3.0 was an AMD 3000>>

i concur... i always said that in a perfect world the performance crown should alternate hands between INTEL and AMD... to keep things moving fast and cheap.

again this is not an attack on normal people or INTEL FANS...its agaisnt INTEL ELITISTS.... they ususaly just log on to bash AMD then praise intel then go whack off.
July 16, 2003 11:59:03 PM

It's not your fault you didn't say all this?

You hinted at it and pointed out you're an AMD fanatic. You hinted you will only buy from AMD. So how does that make you better?

Not only this but where the hell do you see Intelliots here? Most who have made the switch are those who got conscious in the new turn-out of events! I can only see AMD nuts here, when I find them. Heck even then, there are so few.

I seriously think you put a rant up at the wrong time.

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July 17, 2003 12:01:37 AM

Quote:
but it had something to do with AMD implementing .13u features in .18u process technology.

If I am not mistaken, the 0.13m features are the gate lengths, and IIRC that applies to any .18m process. So whoever said they implemented such tech was truly shooting himself in the foot. Furthermore what allowed the Athlon to scale so well was the copper interconnects, the added layers, as well as the long FP pipeline. Anything that relates to longer pipeline, should generally help in scaling.

So now we can bash Intel for using 0.065m features in their 0.09m tech, right?

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July 17, 2003 12:04:59 AM

Eden, you're absolutely right there. PopegoldX ranted at the wrong time.

Plus, his whole "AMD bleeds red, oh, poor AMD" had no purpose at all. There are no Intel elitists around here. He should try to name a few - and he'll notice there are none. PopegoldX, take it easy!

<font color=red><b>M</b></font color=red>ephistopheles
July 17, 2003 12:07:12 AM

Since we got many here going nuts, this is a good time for me to advertise my sig lol.

People, please! Help the THGC Photo Album, come on, post your pics! This link will get you to the rules page, and you can also look at the album as well, we got lots of members. Hope to see more though, as much as I make my sig flashy, it ain't helpin'! :frown:

AND it's for a good cause! :smile:
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July 17, 2003 12:18:19 AM

Wrong time? Im confused.
Because intel is beating the socks off of amd?

Give me intel, a pulling in 1billion a quarter, and I'll give you AMD pulling in 30mil, and you wont EVER be able to compete for any amount of time, let alone overtake me.

What billiondollar corp did intel beat out to get to the top? exactly.

Athlon 1700+, Epox 8RDA (NForce2), Maxtor Diamondmax Plus 9 80GB 8MB cache, 2x256mb Crucial PC2100 in Dual DDR, Geforce 3, Audigy, Z560s, MX500
July 17, 2003 12:49:18 AM

Quote:
Give me intel, a pulling in 1billion a quarter, and I'll give you AMD pulling in 30mil, and you wont EVER be able to compete for any amount of time, let alone overtake me.

Ok that one I didn't get.

Quote:
What billiondollar corp did intel beat out to get to the top? exactly.

To answer that we'll have to dig up history in the 1970s to 1990s of who was in the CPU market. AFAIK there were tons.
Why did Intel get this far, is like asking how did MS get this far. (OMIT THE DAMN MONOPOLISTIC ATTITUDE OR COPYING OF IDEAS FOR A SECOND, I know someone will thrash me with that) Any company that became big, DID something to become big. Intel started small, like a lemonade stand almost!
Today, the reason they continue to thrive is by healthy marketting towards THE RIGHT AUDIENCE (Read: not ENTHUSIASTS), continuing to let the tech sector know that it is devoted to R&D and that its money DOES GO there, by building more fabs, researching and developping EXCELLENT new technologies, from 0.09m chemical substrates that help in power consumption reduction, to Tri-Gate transistors (3d Xistors), to so much more. The fact they show the community they want to step forward, whether or not competition is there, shows not a monopolistic company, but one who has in fact a heart of discovering more of the future. YES AMD played a part in hurrying this, but the fact they offer little competition lately, and Intel continuing to be on track with their new technologies on their roadmaps shows that they are going to go on, whether AMD is there or not.

Intel markets right. AMD fanboys will enjoy claiming Intel advertises MHZ, but I ask you, as Slvr once asked, PROVE ME with a link to an add where they outright say: "More MHZ is important, or it matters". They don't. Fact is, they just say the processors are fast, excellent for multimedia (yes, even a 1.4GHZ can be advertised as such, assuming SSE2 apps are used!). Their Centrino line proves their dedication even without the MHZ myth, and also proves they want to make wireless a future for communication.
Intel markets right also because they know who to advertise to, as Slvr said. The fact we see adds on TV and magazines targetting normal consumers, teaching them about Dell, means big-time success. Dell sells, Dell is Intel's medium to talk to consumers. Enthusiasts are a minority and continue to as we let fanboys take the place.
Dontcha love the Dell dude? :wink:

On top of all that, it's true now that I think about it, fanboys WILL be the end of AMD. Omid said it, it took me a while to get it, but now I get it. It's true guys, fact is, fanboys depend on AMD and AMD now depends on them to buy from them, as they made AMD become an extreme P/P producer, but to the extreme which is NOT good. Their rock-bottom prices HAVE hit rock-bottom and are making them lose than win. Fanboys are killing AMD, as investors are (according to Crashman).

And the fact AMD advertises to US instead of regular consumers shows they are shy, and think that us who knows the difference between an XP3200 and a 3.2GHZ P4, are short-sighted and dumb. Their marketting is insulting as they put "The AthlonXP 3200+ delivers cutting edge performance for the enthusiasts who strive for the best performance towards bleeding-edge gaming". Sounds familiar? Wonder who falls for it... not many I'll tell you that. Fanboys are another category so that is why I say Not many.
The true problem is, and I agree, is the pricing, should competition falter and fail to provide any products, might go up. Will it for sure? I don't know. I am personally inclined to say no for the fact that AMD's position in the market during 1999-2001 has conscientized millions into the fact that Intel's pricing was not right, and that we now know it is possible to purchase sub-500$ CPUs with excellent performance. THAT leads me into thinking Intel won't return to hideous monopolistic prices.

If you want a company that is doing wrong, in all ways including marketting and LYING to its customers, and should deserve to suffer, AND has bad pricing, stop looking at Intel and turn towards nVidia for a second. THEY deserve the flak much more than Intel. nVidia lies, sells at high prices, denies, markets pretending enthusiasts are dumb (kinda like AMD now)

BTW to those who say the current Intel is a monopoly, WRONG. We call that a monopolistic market. And it is not the same.

So I ask you and everyone who still is skeptical (maybe not you), WHAT is Intel doing wrong in being succesful this much?

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July 17, 2003 1:38:26 AM

"Their marketting is insulting as they put "The AthlonXP 3200+ delivers cutting edge performance for the enthusiasts who strive for the best performance towards bleeding-edge gaming". Sounds familiar? Wonder who falls for it... "

People who buy celerons, AMD and Intel have just about equally deceptive marketing as it comes to the amount of people who buy the products that are marketed to be something they are not
July 17, 2003 1:51:39 AM

Just my thoughts, i like amd, and using one of their machines, but i agree it is amd's fault, they haft to have people that can build processors equal to intel. yet they build an opie that only runs in the low ghz range. Come on AMD we know you can build an 3 ghz chip. Im not bashing amd, cause i like amd, but they remind me of the dog from looney toons, the one that goes duh duh which way did he go george.

What is the difference in a childs painting, and a adult who chooses to paint like a child.
July 17, 2003 2:16:26 AM

Quote:
<<So, it's Intel's fault that it made money, and has money to have R&D and advertising? Yeah, good arguement, for what?>>>

uhhh did i say that.... they are SUPPOSE to have all the money and all the power... the did what they had to do to get where they are.

they SUPPOSE to be kicking AMD in the ass...

i just have problems with ELITISTS who jump on INTELS' dick and bash AMD.... let AMD be on top... and they will still do anything to find ways to bash AMD

Yes, you did say that...your original quote was:
Quote:
Intel is dominant...full of cash ...R&D cash up the wazoo to design powerful chips..and advertising dollars to make the lemming believe whateva intel wants them too

So, who are you bashing? People who use Intel chips, or Intel for making a profit? Calling people who use Intel chips lemmings isn't very friendly, IMO.

AMD was on top, and they decided to ramp out a 64-bit CPU as their next big endeavour...BUT it was AMD who delayed it's introduction several years now, and it was AMD who made small MHz size jumps in their processors, but gave them 200+ pts in PR ratings.

You must be confusing the bashing of ratings and lack of performance/price CPUs with the bashing of AMD as a company. I could care less about AMD the company, or any of the stockholders. I do care about the type of products they have been releasing, and how weak they are compared to even their OWN products.

Are you gonna tell me that a 3200+XP Barton is the fastest desktop CPU out there (like AMD claims)?!? Please.

Also, for you to be all high and mighty about these "Elitist" for Intel jumping on AMD, your own attitude against Intel and favor for AMD shows your bias, and pretty much your whole hypocritical point.

Like what you want, but I still stand on my point:

<font color=blue>You want to help AMD, buy stock, and quit crying....</font color=blue>

How many watts does it take to get the center of CPU core?
July 17, 2003 2:30:37 AM

What i meant was, how can anyone ever topple intel? It seems to be impossible. A 30million quarter is essentially nothing compared to a billion.. chump change.

One saying that everyone has been saying in my family for years is "it takes money to make money".

And competing with someone liek intel in our society seems near impossible, it would be better for america if we broke up intel, allowed for more competition to grow, if that doenst happen a foriegn competitor is going to knock their socks off someday.
Intel will someday grow lazy, and with all that money, no american business will ever topple them, some foreign company from another country will come along with lots of money also, and have something completely superior to intel because they have the market cornered and intel has had no reason to innovate.

So hopefully when that happens, they'll be 10years behind in technology, a foriegn company knocks the crap out of them and AMD and others can get a chance.

If they arent goign to let the american companies compete, because its odvious intel has to much money to allow competition to thrive in any region of the market.

Like a DeLorean, how could they ever compete against GM?
A car is a car is a car, kind of hard to innovate in a established market with no competition and no money to compete. A processor is a processor also, yeah you'll have your tricks and optimize programs to run better with HT to get people away from AMD but really.. we're talking about adding 0's and 1's faster and you cant push out someone with a unbelievable amount of wealth, ever.

We need to do waht they did to Ma Bell, the railroad companies and others,<b> break intel up.</b>

You wouldnt probably have your cell phones today if AT&T was your only phone provider for the last 100 years.
Why would they want to do that when they could keep things the same and make as much money as they would be innovating?
We'd be lucky without AMD to be using a Willamette to this day.

Athlon 1700+, Epox 8RDA (NForce2), Maxtor Diamondmax Plus 9 80GB 8MB cache, 2x256mb Crucial PC2100 in Dual DDR, Geforce 3, Audigy, Z560s, MX500
July 17, 2003 2:55:18 AM

What are you talking about?

Did you forget how AMD BEAT THE CRAP out of Intel a few years ago, with about the same overhead/capital it has now? No? Guess that was just a dream....

How about IBM, Apple, and Motorola...break them up too, since they might make too much money?

It's called business, and it's not Intel's fault that AMD made some stupid business decisions. Did Intel make AMD do a half dozen paper launches for processors that weren't going to be available for months? Did Intel tell AMD to create the "limited edition" label on CPUs, because of lack of inventory?

AMD has beaten Intel before, and Intel got off their butts and beat AMD this round. Now, it's AMD's turn to see if it can get off it's butt and turn out some good products.

Also, Intel is not like Ma Bell, since it's not a monopoly. It's close, but legally, it's not. Why??? Can you run Windows on a PC with a CPU not made by Intel? No monopoly. Can you use another CPU not made by Intel? No monopoly. So, quit your whole break up Intel, mumbo jumbo.

Also, I didn't see a bunch of people crying over Cyrix getting killed by both AMD and Intel, back in the day...

So, keep pulling out these inane ideas of how competition would be better if Intel broke it's company up...because what will it break up to? A CPU division, and flash division...yeah, that will make a HUGE change in things now.



How many watts does it take to get the center of CPU core?
July 17, 2003 3:20:37 AM

i thought we had gotten past this garbage, at least its better than the amd is god intel sucks posts of last year. this is just boring.

wpdclan.com cs game server - 69.12.5.119:27015
July 17, 2003 5:08:03 AM

well maybe this forum is not as full of INTEL ELITISTS as i may have thought

u have made some excellents points....
July 17, 2003 5:26:00 AM

why woul dyou assume so? assumeing merely makes an ass out of oneself *most times*


people around here 95% of the time base their favoritsm on facts. if some time if seems like everyones favoring one side more than the other (when at alot of other places, like anandtech, people are favoring something else) its because its been discussed here and the facts have been sorted out

alot of really smart people here *gush gush*

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July 17, 2003 5:31:41 AM

Fact is most of us are aware that if AMD does go down, things will turn for the worse most likely. I like diversity in the market. So even IF Intel won't start jacking up prices (see my theory above), the fact they are the only accessible desktop CPU makes things boring. But that's just from a personal POV, and varies with anybody.

Kinda like the movies in the future where one company dominates earth. Sucks.

AMD had before the chance to destroy Intel, but once they got greedy, they mismanaged, and off they went, losing. If they had improved the AXP and made it better than Intel's P4, by a good margin, people would buy AMD, and not for crazy low non-profit prices, but to really help it. IF they had done it this way, that would've meant they had good management and in turn, the money raked would've made them spend a lot on R&D and even open a new fab after some time. All of this was possible. It still is, but to a very dangerously low extent.

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