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CPU suggestions

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July 20, 2003 10:01:56 PM

I've been wanting to build myself a new system for a while. I had all my parts picked out, and then I got informed of the Pentium 4 Cs. I was originally thinking of getting an Athlon XP 2800+ Barton, but I don't know now.

My question is, which would I be better off getting?

a) XP Thoroughbred 2700+ (~$170 CDN)
b) XP Barton 2800+ (~$250)
c) Pentium 4 2.4C (~$240)

Or something else entirely? The main things I'll be doing on the computer are office work and gaming, but mainly gaming.

The core of the system I had originally planned on was:

Athlon XP 2800+ Barton
A7N8X Deluxe
512MB Dual channel OCZ PC3200
Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB

I've never worked with Pentiums. It's not that I've had anything against them, it's just always been a matter of pricing. Since I was thinking of getting an A7N8X Deluxe to go with the Athlon, what would basically be the equivalent for a P4 mobo? From what I've seen, the C series CPUs pretty much blow everything else away, but I'm not sure on the Pentium motherboards. My budget is limited to about $450 (CDN) for the CPU + mobo. I should also state that I don't plan on doing any overclocking until warranties run out.

More about : cpu suggestions

July 21, 2003 12:05:45 AM

the system you originally thinking was very nice for gaming
the P4 2.4C however, I think can do a better job..
July 21, 2003 12:15:54 AM

P4 2.4c $240 CDN Abit IS7 Mobo $109 I don't know the CDN price. That will keep you under the $450 CDN price for Cpu and Mobo.
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July 21, 2003 1:00:58 AM

I would also suggest going with the 2.4Ghz, 800Mhz FSB Pentium 4. It has HT and will not be slower than the 2800+, despite the XP's rating. Plus, a good i865 mobo will support prescott, the next great thing from Intel for desktops.
Quote:
From what I've seen, the C series CPUs pretty much blow everything else away

Agreed. :smile: The nForce2 equivalent for Intel would be the i865 chipset. It has all features you can possibly think of, good performance, and is very adequately priced.

But hey, the 2800+ should also be one hell of a machine, and is an excellent second choice.

<font color=red><b>M</b></font color=red>ephistopheles
July 23, 2003 7:46:19 AM

HT - just a marketing strategy by intel, though it's that very effective at all except when the program is written for it.

The Ultimate Video Processor:
GeForceFX + Radeon + Parhelia = "Radeohelia FX"
July 23, 2003 7:48:32 AM

But still the P4 2.4C is today's best deal.

The Ultimate Video Processor:
GeForceFX + Radeon + Parhelia = "Radeohelia FX"
July 23, 2003 12:26:52 PM

jmecor, while a single program might have to be multithreaded to take advantage of HT, many programs can easily take advantage of it. I have access to 4 dual Xeon systems with HT enabled, and I can tell you that HT is not just a marketing strategy, it really increases performance.

One cosmic ray simulation (I work at a physics institute)takes 17 minutes to finish. Two of them, on the same CPU and simultaneously, take 23 minutes, instead of 34 or something...

<font color=red><b>M</b></font color=red>ephistopheles
July 23, 2003 2:34:55 PM

P4 2.4C is the best deal if you are overclocking.
July 23, 2003 2:48:22 PM

Quote:
Two of them, on the same CPU and simultaneously, take 23 minutes, instead of 34 or something...

really? That's quite impressive. I can certainly see how HT can help, but I didn't realise it could make <i>that</i> much difference... AFAIK that sort of thing is all CPU really, so I don't know where it finds the 'idle' time from the one thread, to do stuff with the other... Intel have a damn fine bit of kit there..

just out of curiousity, have you tried that on an AXP rig? just wondering how it would compare....

The more I learn, the more I think AMD are doomed - in their current guise at least.... I still hope they prove me wrong with A64 tho.


---
$hit Happens. I just wish it would happen to someone else for a change.
July 23, 2003 3:00:59 PM

Ya it looks like AMD is doomed. But they should be able to pull a rabbit out the ole hat.
July 24, 2003 4:58:07 AM

Yea 2.4c...i've heard numberous reports that it can hit 3ghz on stock cooling with ease. that is of course with good ram and nice oc'able board.



The customer is not always right.
If they were, they would do my job.
July 24, 2003 2:12:58 PM

Okay. So, from what I'm seeing, I should probably be going for a P4 C. Just a couple more quick questions:

1) What's the best board for the money? (Just disregard the $450 CDN budget thing for a moment.)

2) This is kind of what might hold me back from getting a P4. What's the quality of the onboard sound solutions for the Intel boards (AD1985, for example), compared to NVIDIA's SoundStorm?

I'm looking at the onboard sound solutions because I don't really have the extra cash to blow on an Audigy2 at the moment.
July 24, 2003 2:57:38 PM

Chipdeath, I assure you that I was as impressed as you seem to be. Astonishing, isn't it?... Anyway, no, I haven't had the opportunity to try the simulation on an AXP rig. I was considering asking for acess to the two AMD760-based dual MP 2000+ for an hour or so to run those cosmic ray simulations; however, I still didn't get to it. (the 4 dual xeon rackmounted systems are dual 2.4Ghz, 533Mhz FSB, E7501 chipset with dual channel DDR266 and 3GB system memory... They were not cheap, though.) Seriously, though, I wouldn't expect the dual MP 2000+ to measure up. Keep in mind that we are using Intel's compilers... not GCC.

<font color=red><b>M</b></font color=red>ephistopheles
July 24, 2003 3:15:20 PM

There are a lot of i865PE mobos out there. (Make sure that it's an i865PE because there are also a number of i865P boards that you'll want to avoid.) Abit's IS7 line is supposed to be good, so long as you get the revised version with the quieter fan on the northbridge. (The initial versions had a REALLY loud fan appearantly.) Personally though I bought the Asus P4P800 Deluxe for my new PC because I wanted the IDE RAID1 option that came with the deluxe model and I wanted the fanless northbridge that Asus uses in their P4P800 mobos. I'd imagine that the plain P4P800 would be just as good and cost considerably less. It just doesn't come with Firewire and IDE RAID.

And the onboard 5.1 sound on my Asus P4P800 Deluxe is just awesome! So don't regret not getting an Audigy2 because a lot of mobos have really good onboard sound these days. :)  And really, it's the speakers that matter more than the sound card in my opinion.

"<i>Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they <b>ARE</b> your equals.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
July 24, 2003 3:16:43 PM

What about the Intel Pentium 4 2.4GHz 512k socket 478 Hyper Threading 800MHz FSB at $170.00 and MSI 865PE NEO2-LS P4/FSB 800/DDR400/8X AGP at $100.00. Total of $270.00 at pricewatch.com. Tomsharware just did a review on that motherboard.
July 24, 2003 4:24:51 PM

Are you guys building a Cosmic Ray Gun? While your at it.
July 24, 2003 4:28:08 PM

I agree with Slvr on those Mobos he suggested. Thay are both top notch.
July 24, 2003 4:35:24 PM

Quote:
Are you guys building a Cosmic Ray Gun? While your at it.

Hmm....

With a fast enough processor, some custom software, and an array of home-built USB devices that run powerful electromagnets you might be able to build a rail gun. :)  ...Or at least a gauss rifle. That'd be pretty neat.

"<i>Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they <b>ARE</b> your equals.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
July 24, 2003 4:36:02 PM

I live in canada too. My choice was:

AMD barton 2500+ <b>127$</b>
or
Intel 2.4C <b>246$</b>

I chose the cheap road. AMD all the way! They might crap out and lose everything, but not before I get atleast another upgrade or two out of them.


And if they did ever crap out. They'd liquidate they're inventory, and I could get a hammer for like 50$
July 24, 2003 4:43:27 PM

Hey, I'm in! [aah, childhood dreams fulfilled... :smile: ]

---
$hit Happens. I just wish it would happen to someone else for a change.
July 24, 2003 5:20:48 PM

**ROFL** I don't know what's worse, that we got onto this topic or that I've actually considered building one at home in the past. If I had a testing range and the money to blow on parts I'd probably give it a go. I mean people build catapults to lob pumpkins, so why not build a rail gun?

The way I figure it, it'd be best to design it as a two stage system. The first stage is controlled by USB and the electomagnets are powered directly. Here millisecond timing isn't quite as essential because the velocities involved will be lower in this stage. What's really needed is just raw magnetic power to get the projectile moving. So you just need to play around with the code until you get the timings right for the strength of the magnets and the projectile to maximize it's acceleration through the first stage.

The second stage is more of an electro-mechanical marvel. Here the accuracy of the timing is more important, so it's best to leave the PC out of it. The magnets will need to power down just as quickly as they power up, so here you'll want them to run on capacitors instead of run a straight line from a power source. Charge capacitors for each magnet seperately. Trigger the magnet using a cheap optical sensor as the switch with a recessed LED as a light source. Set up an array of these as seperate independant devices and you're good to go. :) 

The hard part is the calibration of the second stage. The timings would be adjusted by the placement of the optical sensors, and each magnet would have to be timed seperately. I'd imagine that at some point you'd have to move the optical sensors further and further before the magnets because as the velocity of the projectile increases you'll have to start accounting for lag in the circuitry.

And the construction should probably be out of a ceramic compound for a number of reasons. You don't want the barrel getting magnetized and throwing off the calibrations. You want something smooth, hard, and heat resistant. I can't think of anything better than ceramic for that.

Sadly, the rail gun is probably the easy part. It's building the mecha to mount it on that's hard. ;) 

"<i>Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they <b>ARE</b> your equals.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
July 24, 2003 5:33:27 PM

Sounds good. So how much would it cost to build that thing?
July 24, 2003 5:56:50 PM

Hehe these are the things i never thought i would see on thg...

Make sure you are far away from your computer when you launch it...the EMP could destroy some data

So easy to fry yet tastes so good...
Silicon: The other, other, other white meat :evil: 
July 24, 2003 6:29:52 PM

Quote:
Sounds good. So how much would it cost to build that thing?

Beats me. I haven't really checked prices.

Simple optical sensors are getting pretty cheap though, and LEDs have always been cheap. The magnets you could possibly even make yourself. Large capacitors and the USB electronics and microcontrollers are probably the expensive parts. Well ... other than the ceramics.

My thought was to start out small at first, with maybe a projectile the size of an arrow head. (Not hunting size but just regular target shooting size.) I would imagine that for a grand or two you could build a small one.

Maybe it'd cost as much as ten grand if you wanted to take the project seriously and build something more dangerous than just a regular old hunting rifle. If you wanted to make it portable ... I'm not sure. Once you start talking portable you then have to worry about the power source. Even then, I doubt man-portable would be possible without some serious cash.

"<i>Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they <b>ARE</b> your equals.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
July 24, 2003 6:35:38 PM

Quote:
Hehe these are the things i never thought i would see on thg...

Aren't all of us computer folks just nerds at heart? ;)  So where better to find people with these ideas than THGC?

Quote:
Make sure you are far away from your computer when you launch it...the EMP could destroy some data

You know, that's a very good point. You would definately have to shield the system well. Maybe it'd even just be better to get rid of the PC entirely for control. You could use programmable microcontrollers for the first stage and just use the USB port to program them. If you just rebooted the microcontrollers after each attempt and reloaded their code then it wouldn't matter if they got wiped in the process or not. Though that would be an extreme solution. I'd hope that you could shield them well enough to not even need to reload their programming each time.

"<i>Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they <b>ARE</b> your equals.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
July 24, 2003 6:40:23 PM

i think the smaller models would be easy to sheild...but the larger ones...thats a diffrent story...i don't even know what is used to sheild EMP's....would it be lead...as it is the electromagnetic radiation that destroys data and since lead is dense i would not let it pass?

So easy to fry yet tastes so good...
Silicon: The other, other, other white meat :evil: 
July 24, 2003 6:45:49 PM

Sure make it out of lead. Even Superman can't see thru that stuff.
July 24, 2003 6:56:11 PM

Ooo, a rail gun... not bad at all. If it works, you can aim the damned thing at your door and hope some burglar comes in... install a security/surveillance system and you're set. You'll tear any unwanted trespasser to bits. *evil grin* "I hope somebody trespasses today... Oh no, is that irritating moron coming over for visit? OK, that's enough. Let's test this baby..." or something...
July 24, 2003 6:59:29 PM

One more thing...

<b>*only read this if you want to know about cosmic rays... if you don't, this WILL waste your time.*</b>

Now seriously, Cosmic rays are cosmic rays because they're not from earth. They travel in space and reach earth with an immense energy (they're usually subatomic particles, like protons or electrons, or maybe something else) for their size. One of these particles - and they're terribly small - could hold the same energy as, say, a tennis ball travelling at nearly 120-130kph - if you consider that the tennis ball has much, much more mass, that's like 99.9...9% of the speed of light.

Upon entering the atmosphere, these particles collide with molecules and interact with the atmosphere in such a way that they break up into a greater number of less energetic particles. This happens iteratively, and so, in the end, a huge number of less energetic particles get to the ground and are detected by physicist's devices. This breaking up of the original particle is called a particle shower. When those particles finally get to the ground, this doesn't mean they'll stop. Some of the particles still cross the entire planet and exit the other way, so these particles are not often easy to detect, because they will only very rarely directly collide with a detection device.

After the detection data has been collected, the problem becomes a matter of reconstructing what happened, like determining the energy of the original particle and its inclination. This is done through numerical calculation and is computationally demanding. That 17-minute simulation was a simple case run. One of the mysteries of this whole thing is that a subatomic particle with "macroscopic" energy levels is <i>very incredibly energetic</i>, to the point that there <i>are no known natural astrophysical phenomena</i> that could have taken the article to that energy level, i.e. accelerated that original particle to those ridiculously high speeds. So determining particle source is a problem.

<i>Actually, I'm not working with those things now, but I'm very close to a group of physicists that is. Right now, I'm messing with Molecular Dynamics - I think I've mentioned this around here, but can't quite remember where or when.</i>

<b>See? I warned you! crazy cosmic rays session over...</b> :smile:

<font color=red><b>M</b></font color=red>ephistopheles
July 24, 2003 7:13:53 PM

Quote:
i think the smaller models would be easy to sheild...but the larger ones...thats a diffrent story...i don't even know what is used to sheild EMP's....would it be lead...as it is the electromagnetic radiation that destroys data and since lead is dense i would not let it pass?

Hmm...

:( 

You know, when I think about it, I'm really not sure.

I mean if I remember my physics correctly (it's been many a year, so who knows if I am) EM radiation is a broad specrtum including radio waves, light waves, even micro waves. So the question really probably is more what wavelength is the radiation that the electromagnets give off? If I knew that, finding a material to use for shielding would be a lot easier. Heh heh.

Then again, are the two even related? :( 

Where's a physics nut when you need one?

"<i>Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they <b>ARE</b> your equals.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
July 24, 2003 7:16:59 PM

Quote:
Ooo, a rail gun... not bad at all. If it works, you can aim the damned thing at your door and hope some burglar comes in... install a security/surveillance system and you're set. You'll tear any unwanted trespasser to bits. *evil grin* "I hope somebody trespasses today... Oh no, is that irritating moron coming over for visit? OK, that's enough. Let's test this baby..." or something...

But if I did that then I'd have to take down the shotgun-trigger-on-a-string security system that I have set up.

"<i>Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they <b>ARE</b> your equals.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
July 24, 2003 7:20:48 PM

Oh yes, right... but wait a minute... couldn't you just use them <i>both</i> on the poor trespasser? :evil: 

Cleaning up might be a problem later, though.

<font color=red><b>M</b></font color=red>ephistopheles
July 24, 2003 7:24:10 PM

The northern lights?

So easy to fry yet tastes so good...
Silicon: The other, other, other white meat :evil: 
July 24, 2003 7:27:24 PM

Quote:
One of the mysteries of this whole thing is that a subatomic particle with "macroscopic" energy levels is very incredibly energetic, to the point that there are no known natural astrophysical phenomena that could have taken the article to that energy level, i.e. accelerated that original particle to those ridiculously high speeds. So determining particle source is a problem.

Can't you reproduce cosmic rays with nuclear fission?

<sarcasm><i>Besides, we </i>all<i> know that the majority of the cosmic rays come from the interaction between matter and anti-matter at the edge where 'our' universe meets that of our evil twin mirror universe comprised entirely of anti-matter. And one day our universe will end and theirs will begin(because they go through time backwards) and then big <i>wang</i> will occur and flip our universes so that we become the anti-matter and they become the matter and the cosmic radiation will become the least of all of our concerns.</i></sarcasm> ;) 

Hey, does anyone remember where I left my sanity? I can't seem to find it anywhere. :) 

It's always in the last place that you look, but since I must have already looked there, having been the last place that I looked, then it must not be there yet.

"<i>Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they <b>ARE</b> your equals.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
July 24, 2003 7:41:59 PM

Quote:
Oh yes, right... but wait a minute... couldn't you just use them both on the poor trespasser?

Cleaning up might be a problem later, though.

Why am I suddenly reminded of an old White Wolf - Vampire, The Masquerade campaign...

Who put those tanks of mixed oxyacetylene in the sewers set to mercury switches in styrofoam floaty kid toys? Do you really think that the city officials will believe it was just sewer gas? Oh, you've already bought someone who can make it happen, well that's different then...

And will you please <i>stop</i> coating those magnesium pellets with an accelerant for the shotgun shells? We have more than enough already, thank you very much! I know that I <i>am</i> almost finished with the prototype of the fully-automatic 10-gauge 'snub' gun, but we won't need <i>that</i> many shells until we at least have a production model. Sheesh!

"<i>Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they <b>ARE</b> your equals.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
July 24, 2003 9:23:31 PM

Quote:
Where's a physics nut when you need one?

I'm sorry, I missed my calling sign there... :frown: I saw it just now! Sooo...

OK, here's the thing: you want to set up an electromagnetic railgun. The gun will use the magnetic force on a current-carrying projectile, or maybe a fuse just behind the projectile, to accelerate it to great speeds. Lab-built rail guns can shoot projectiles at speeds of up to 10km/s or so - this is why rail guns are so popular. Depending on the currents used, you might end up with an intense magnetic field - and you would want it to be intense, because this would imply higher projectile speeds *evil grin again*. So you will be using great currents, but you'll want to shield the external envirnment against magnetic and electric fields. I actually lack the knowledge as to how powerful a shielding you will need; however, you might do nicely with a diamagnetic metal-based solid faraday cage. I would imagine that a thick cardboard box wrapped in aluminum foil or something might do the trick, depending on the intensities of currents involved (this might only be enough for low currents, though...). I'll have to confirm this, because I'm just speaking off the top of my head and this is not really that simple an issue... And I <i>think</i> wood also blocks magnetic fields nicely. Don't remember exactly, though...

I'll check and come back later.

<font color=red><b>M</b></font color=red>ephistopheles
July 24, 2003 9:56:27 PM

Anyone read the book, The Big U?

I'm just your average habitual smiler =D
July 25, 2003 12:49:07 AM

The railguns out. I have something we hit them with the mac G5. Have you seen that ad on tv that blows the guy thru what five walls an the front door of his house?
July 25, 2003 12:56:32 AM

i guess thats what happens when macs get angry...

So easy to fry yet tastes so good...
Silicon: The other, other, other white meat :evil: 
July 25, 2003 3:39:19 AM

Does it make you want to run out an buy one. Sense it's the fastest computer.
July 25, 2003 3:41:05 AM

They blow up. So when you fire up your G5 it blows holes in your walls. Nice AC thou with all the holes.
July 25, 2003 4:10:41 AM

hey...ur an old hand...congrats...

So easy to fry yet tastes so good...
Silicon: The other, other, other white meat :evil: 
July 25, 2003 3:38:20 PM

Thanks on the old hand. But it will be awhile before I get to the next one. I'm still trying to catch Crashman. LOL.
July 25, 2003 4:04:50 PM

I've seen the commercial once, and I still can't get over how silly the whole thing was. I just honestly don't get Apple. Or maybe it's the community that uses Macs. I dunno, but either way I just don't get it. :\

Still, it would make for an interesting security system. Go ahead, just <i>try</i> to steal my Mac!

"<i>Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they <b>ARE</b> your equals.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
July 25, 2003 4:08:09 PM

Quote:
i guess thats what happens when macs get angry...

Someone should write a short story or a song about that.

<b><font color=red>When Macs Get Angry</font color=red></b>

It could have a tagline like... <font color=red>A Tale of Bloodshed and Woe</font color=red>

Or... <font color=red>One Rotten Apple Spoils the Bunch</font color=red>

"<i>Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they <b>ARE</b> your equals.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
July 25, 2003 4:19:39 PM

I did not think of that. G5 for home security. We should s one to Pres.
July 25, 2003 4:21:47 PM

That reminds me of the Bond movie. When the decal on his car says alarmed. The guy butt ends the window with a rifle. The car blows up.
July 27, 2003 11:35:33 PM

ya know i used to remember when back in the day...macs would really get angry...the lc III's and the fist powermacs often would ask you to insert a disk after you removed it...then when you put the disk back in waited a while and removed it, the computer would ask again...this would happen over and over and over...scared me for life. I bet it had something to do with the OS not dismounting the disk...

So easy to fry yet tastes so good...
Silicon: The other, other, other white meat :evil: 
!