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INTEL confirms PRESCOTT is a SPACE HEATER

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August 5, 2003 1:26:14 PM

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=10862

to the chagrin of the resident INTELLIOTS.... THe prescott does in fact double as a toaster over and a geroge forman grill.

wont be long now b4 the delay annoucement
August 5, 2003 1:51:31 PM

where there is smoke there is fire

the MB problem with prescott rumour was the first sign of process problems with PRESCOTT

Intel fans shot it down as BS RUMORS

Then it started coming out that PRESCOTT at a much smaller MICRON was actually hotter and sucking more juice than the .13 Northwood.

Intel Fans said HOGWASH. I mean INTEL never has process issues ever. (P3 1.13 GHZ)

NOw there are rumours that INTEL is having massive gate leakages with the .90 process and Prescott wont see the light of day for some time.

Intel fans again say THIS IS UTTER NONSENSE...after all this is INTEL we are talking about.

Now INTEL themselves have said "YES PRESCOTT IS A MICROWAVE OVEN"

I have no doubt INTEL will fix the problem...in time... But this is a window of oppurtunity for u know who

HAMMERTIME!

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by popegoldx on 08/05/03 09:53 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
August 5, 2003 2:51:43 PM

Quote:
where there is smoke there is fire

... And where there's excessive use of CAPS, there's a TW@.

---
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August 5, 2003 3:47:33 PM

Quote:
"YES PRESCOTT IS A MICROWAVE OVEN"

Hm, there are no microwaves there, poopy.

Poopy, when you keep saying "intel fans said this, that", why can't you actually wait until someone says such things? You don't, you just accuse generically.

While a 100W heat dissipation might be a little troublesome, it is not the end of Intel vs AMD or anything. It just means that the first revision of prescotts will be hot.

Quote:
I mean INTEL never has process issues ever.

Who said that?
Quote:
and Prescott wont see the light of day for some time.

And who the hell said that? Prescott's release date still stands, officially.

Quote:
I have no doubt INTEL will fix the problem...in time... But this is a window of oppurtunity for u know who

Yes, AMD might try to use Prescott's high thermal output as a sales point indeed. But try not to get overly excited about those things now, poopy. Because the performance issue is not at all solved, we don't know what each processor has to offer! And it is difficult to ascertain everything now. Prescott's heat issue is a negative point for Intel right now. But what else is prescott about, and what can it do? And A64? A64 is still a wildcard right now.

<font color=red><b>M</b></font color=red>ephistopheles
August 5, 2003 6:07:20 PM

Palamino cpus sold very well...they ran very hot too...i don't think intel will have problems...cause fact of the matter is that most cpus are sold by oems...so its not the consumers problem to solve...it's dells problem....And i am no doubt sure that oems will find a way to keep the prescott running nice and stable...

How can you say that the p3 1.13 had processes issues...it was a mature core...it was the last coppermine ever to be released...it was not a problem with the manufacturing process...it was a problem that intel had reached the physical limits of the coppermine core...and so little of these cpus were sold it did not really effect too many consumers...



If i put my k6 in a Ferrari it would be faster than your your pentium 4 or Athlon XP :tongue:
August 5, 2003 6:21:58 PM

Lately I've given up even caring about anything you write 'pope', since frankly you're about as scientifically accurate as the Catholic church is biblicly accurate. This case is, of course, no exception.

The only reason that I'm even bothering at all is simply because you're spreading considerable FUD that even the article that you linked to doesn't back up. And come on, 'the inquirer'? You couldn't find a more inacurate news source if you tried to.

Quote:
the MB problem with prescott rumour was the first sign of process problems with PRESCOTT

I don't know where in the world you get this idea from. Besides the fact that there is no known motherboard problem yet, even if there was it would simply have been a matter of 3rd party mobo manufacturers not following Intel's electrical specs for Prescott. And since those have been widely available and unchanged for quite some time, it really is a matter of the 3rd party manu's choice, not of any actual flaw in the chipset. So there is absolutely no reason why it wouldn't work for any manu that chose to make it work. Which is why a number of manus have already stated explicitely that their mobos <i>will</i> run Prescott. So not only was this <i>not</i> an indication of process problems in Scotty, but this rumor <i>has</i> been proven to be nothing but a lie. Any mobo from a manu that claims Scotty runs on their mobos will indeed run Scotty.

Quote:
Intel fans shot it down as BS RUMORS

If you call motherboard manufacturers 'Intel fans', then yes. And rightly so, because it <i>was</i> a BS rumor.

Quote:
Then it started coming out that PRESCOTT at a much smaller MICRON was actually hotter and sucking more juice than the .13 Northwood.

Gee, I wonder why.

<sarcasm>I mean it wasn't like Intel didn't double the ondie cache, the most frequently used and thus heat generating part of the CPU. And certainly the improved hyperthreading that enables the CPU to utilize even more of it's maximum processing power has nothing to do with a heat and power increase either. It couldn't possibly be that Scotty runs hotter at least in part because Scotty simply utilizes even more of the maximum capability of the CPU than a P4 has ever done before, and thus Scotty's typical power and heat is much closer to it's theoretical maximum than any P4 has ever been at before. No. That couldn't possibly be why at all. It must be completely and totally a process problem and has absolutely nothing to do with anything that Intel has done to improve the core and thus raise the IPC.</sarcasm>

Quote:
Intel Fans said HOGWASH. I mean INTEL never has process issues ever. (P3 1.13 GHZ)

I haven't heard/read a single person who has ever said it is 'hogwash', Intel fan or not. Everyone knows that a new process has issues. Always has, always will. Intel and AMD both have had quite their share of issues when moving to a new process. Frankly, to even expect otherwise would be just plain stupid. This is why almost no one buys the absolute latest and greatest right when it first comes out, because <i>most</i> people are wary of these quite frequent problems that <i>all</i> companies have had. I dare you to even provide five links to 'Intel fans' who have said 'hogwash'.

Quote:
NOw there are rumours that INTEL is having massive gate leakages with the .90 process and Prescott wont see the light of day for some time.

Funny how electron migration works. It's everybody's problem. Intel, being the first to go to a .09 micron process is the first to have to actually deal with the problem. You say this as though anyone else who is working on the same process wouldn't have the exact same problems.

However, the rumor that Scotty will be delayed is so far just that, <i>a rumor</i>. Even Intel themselves when faced directly has said Scotty is right on schedule. It may indeed be hot (Like the P4 3.06 wasn't?) but it's still right on schedule <i>and</i> a core revision to help fix this problem is <i>already</i> being worked on. So not only will Scotty be on schedule, but ScottyB with a lower heat output will be right on ScottyA's tail, <i>according to Intel</i>.

So '<font color=red>wont see the light of day for some time</font color=red>'? Not even your linked article from the monkeys at 'the inquirer' back you up on this.

Quote:
Intel fans again say THIS IS UTTER NONSENSE...after all this is INTEL we are talking about.

Exactly. It <i>is</i> utter nonsense. Not even 'the inquirer' backs you up about a delay on Scotty. And Intel, unlike AMD, actually meets the deadlines on their roadmaps. Or do we have to remind you about Athlon64's history?

Quote:
Now INTEL themselves have said "YES PRESCOTT IS A MICROWAVE OVEN"

You know that when you 'quote' things like that which are in fact lies, that is called libel (at least in print) and you <i>can</i> be sued for it. Intel has never said any such thing. Intel didn't even confirm 100W. They said "close to that number". For all that we <i>know</i> it could be 95W. Only an AMDummy would turn 'close to 100W' into 'is a microwave oven'. (Especially since even if it was <b>5000W</b> you still couldn't use it as a microwave oven.)

Quote:
I have no doubt INTEL will fix the problem...in time... But this is a window of oppurtunity for u know who

There is no doubt. Intel will fix any and all problems. They have quite an excellent record for doing so.

And even 'the inquirer' knows who's window of opportunity it is: "<i>Companies such as Astek or Corsair and others working on </i>(water)<i> cooling solution</i>".

As for AMD, they can't even get an AthlonXP that will compete with a top-end Northwood. Surely after seeing all of the Opteron benchmarks out there only an AMDummy would believe that A64 will compete with a top-end Prescott, even with heat issues.

popegoldx, if you want to post links and hold <i>intelligent</i> discussions that's peachy-keen. But just flat out lying and even having the link that you point to as 'proof' not back up your FUD is just plain sad. The only person that you're fooling here is yourself.

"<i>Let's see what <b>Paragraph 84-B</b> has to say about it.</i>" - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030724" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>
August 5, 2003 6:25:56 PM

Ok, maybe I'm not even reading the same article as everyone else, but I kind of felt the tone of the article was not that Prescott is horrible for being a space heater, but that the core is being revised to make sure that doesn't happen when Prescott comes to market.

Considering the life cycle of the Intel cpus, i wouldn't be surprised to see the B stepping come out as warm and toasty, with enough performance to kill the competition, and then the C stepping (or maybe even D or E) coming out to change speed paths, optimize other items, and...lower heat dis.

On another note...(since I could actually see it in the generation right after Prescott)...anyone wonder what Tri-Gate transistors will do to heat?

I'm just your average habitual smiler =D
August 5, 2003 7:20:35 PM

I think pope was actually TRYING to be a bit general on the post. A majority of those who post on boards like this think along the lines he was talking about. For example, when I first got into hardware a few years ago...I was told by anyone I asked that Pentium processors were more stable than AMD. I was also told that AMD processors generated more heat. This is probably due to the fact that during that time and before...it was generally true. Since the induction of the XP serious though I would have to say that things have improved with both of those issues.

If Intel is facing heat related issues and leaves a gap open for long enough...AMD might swoop in and at the very least catch up. The BEST thing about this is that it will make chipzilla lower prices to compete. In the end, the consumer will benefit from this. So, whether for or against AMD or Intel...we all will win in this one.

CPU manufacturers are riding a very thin rail right now because no matter how fast they really get, you won't see that far of an improvement until motherboards and storage devices catch up (for the general consumer). Things are starting to get very interesting. There’s also the fact that soon transistors will have to change as well. We’re running out of room for them on processors. I’ve heard of carbon transistors, bioelectrical transistors and even liquid transistors that might be taking the place of our solid state ones. Whatever the case, in these next 2 – 5 years things are going to get very interesting very quickly.

If one company falters the other will seize the opportunity to exploit and gain. It's the beauty of capitalism and of America. I am looking forward to just about anything that will provide price competition. I mean, I run AMD XP's but that's because #1 I don't have tons of experience with Intel’s and #2 I like the fact that the price is just right. It doesn’t mean I hate Pentium…I know AMD performance is beneath Pentium. I don’t care either. Anything at or near 2+ GHz for a CPU no matter what the FSB speed will do just fine for any application or game I happen to want to open or play. It just so happens that I find AMD more appealing in the price category.

On a side note:
I think almost everyone who has posted along this thread has lost track of what would have been a better thing to focus on..we should be focusing on the positive side to this: lower prices for both processors. Instead, everyone is pointing fingers at one another trying to make someone else look stupid/less intelligent than the other. That is the one thing I hate about being into computers... the fact that no matter where I go and who I meet, I always get someone comparing brain pans with me and trying to jockey their own intelligence to the front of the pack. I get so tired seeing pi$$ing contests between some types of people and anyone who will step up to the line…remember, sooner or later your bladder goes empty. Better conserve it for now.

I’m glad that rogue comments like the one pope posted generates so much discussion…I just don’t like it when people start to take things personally because the group they have placed themselves into disagrees/agrees with said rogue comment. I’m not going to hum koomba ya and suggest we all sit in a circle roasting smores; instead I hope that we can give back some constructive criticism and show Pope the way posts are supposed to be done. Teach those less experienced the right way...perhaps a better way to express it is to lead by example.

PS: I mean no offense to anyone who has more experience or has posted here for longer than I have...I was simply giving my two cents worth.



<font color=red>Alcohol, the cause of and solution to all life's problems. </font color=red>
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TKS
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
August 5, 2003 7:36:56 PM

Amen
August 5, 2003 8:45:24 PM

I understand and appreciate your sentiment and respect your opinion. I just completely disagree with it, no offense.

If popegoldx has read any threads in this forum at all other than his own then he knows how to write a constructive one. There are countless positive examples. THGC in general has been rather exceptional lately at being helpful and informative. By now it is quite blatantly obvious that being either helpful or informative are not on popegoldx's list of things to do.

This is why the 'fingerpointing' 'pissing contests' have been going on, because he is providing blatantly incorrect information which draws people to debate this. There's nothing wrong with a good debate. People can 'argue' in good ways. Perhaps you've lost sight of the this?

And I <i>really</i> don't understand what you were trying to say that he was trying to be general in his posts. Could you please clarify?

Further I disagree with your idealistic view of competition. While superficially this is true, the reality really is that CPUs have outpaced every other component of the PC. What we really need is a <i>lack</i> of CPU competition for a time so that the rest of the PC can catch up and software programmers can be reminded of the simple concept of optimization. Most programmers have become lazy with so much power and resources in their hands. It's about time that they learned to use it wisely. (By the way, I'm a scientific software engineer, so I know the biz from the inside.)

What AMD really needs (besides a management transplant and/or buyout by a more daring and/or powerful company) is to stop competing for a moment and work on the basics. They really need to improve their production marketing and correct their pricing nightmare. It may be good for the consumer, but it's been really bad for AMD. And the only way that they can really slow down and fix these things is again, if the CPU industry takes a breather while competition stalls. I think Intel has been trying rather hard to slow down their advancement lately. Hopefully AMD will learn to use that to their advantage and fix their own company instead of working on faster and better CPUs before they collapse from the inside-out.

<font color=purple><pre><A HREF="http://www.winamp.com" target="_new">Winamp<b><font color=blue>3</font color=blue></b></A> and freeform skins, the best thing since sliced llama loaf. (Now with more beef.)</pre><p></font color=purple>
August 5, 2003 8:45:56 PM

I agree with everything you've said.
It does appear ppl are biased towards intel. But ppl were biased towards AMD in their heyday too. It just gets old seeing the shuffling back and forth of the zombies.
Like yourself I go off best deal, not highest performance which is Intel right now.
And who cares about highest performance. AMD is still very well worth buying over intel IMHO and w/o ALOT more profit for AMD the day of cheap good overclockable intels will be gone again.
I like the 2.8C and 2500+ myself, but stick with the 2500+ because I already have the hardware to use one and I dont find the discrepancies between the cpu lines to be one worth arguing about.

What you said TKS is golden.

Athlon 1700+, Epox 8RDA (NForce2), Maxtor Diamondmax Plus 9 80GB 8MB cache, 2x256mb Crucial PC2100 in Dual DDR, Geforce 3, Audigy, Z560s, MX500
August 5, 2003 8:51:20 PM

Wow I'll have to finish your reply later.
August 5, 2003 8:54:13 PM

Kinney, Have you ever heard the term Hypocryte. Reread your own post. And I disagree that AMD is worth buying over Intel. I think you buy what you like and are somewhat familar with. Usually it comes down to budget for most people.



"Bush+Rumsfield=Dictatorship"
August 5, 2003 9:21:38 PM

Hey, what's wrong with sitting around a campfire eating smores? I like them.........now that you mention it, I'm hungry.

*leaves computer to raid kitchen*
a b à CPUs
August 5, 2003 9:41:39 PM

Wait, wasn't it idiots like you that started the rumor that current boards can't support 100W processors? Even though the VRM spec requires 100W support for CURRENT processors?

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
August 6, 2003 12:28:41 AM

No, but I have heard of the word hypocrite (sorry :tongue: ).
You are correct though, I prefer AMD because I already have the hardware, I'm building a 2nd computer and I'm going to upgrade my main PC (listed below) to a 2500+.

I would go with a 2.8C but then I'd have to get a new mobo, HS/fan.. why? Thats alot more money when I can get ballpark performance to a P4 with a 2500+ @ 3200+ speeds for only $90 versus $150+ or whatever it would cost to get a intel mobo/cpu combo with a regular old nforce2 and pc2100 ram.

Most everyone knows I do have a P4 though, its a 1.5 willamette [thumbs down]. So I'm not completely unfamiliar with p4s.
Ciao!

edit- You got your opinion and I must say mine about your signature.. that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read "bush+rumsfeld=dictatorship", "2+2=4" would carry infinitely more logic than that!!!
btw I'm NOT going to sit here and argue politics with you, just wanted to point that out.

Athlon 1700+, Epox 8RDA (NForce2), Maxtor Diamondmax Plus 9 80GB 8MB cache, 2x256mb Crucial PC2100 in Dual DDR, Geforce 3, Audigy, Z560s, MX500<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by kinney on 08/05/03 07:31 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
August 6, 2003 12:32:57 AM

AMD is worth buying for low-end. Mid-end is now Intel anyday.

Furthermore you are totally wrong (with all due respect) to even think it's generating profit. If I am not mistaken, AMD is losing and has been for a long time. The low-end rush is not helping them one bit. It's like MS's first Xbox days where it was losing money each time someone bought it!
It's not good for AMD, it's good for you. But how good will it be for you if AMD ceases to exist?

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August 6, 2003 12:34:20 AM

Pope, you remind me of Comical Ali, you're hilarious, yet lovely to hear and laugh at.

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August 6, 2003 12:38:27 AM

If AMD goes down, I hope NV, who has one of the best track records in the industry, buys them out.
Regardless of joe jackass fanboys opinion on Nvidia they are a grade A company.
Like you said, that would, in the long run, be the best outcome.

Then Nvidia would make the chipsets to their own CPUs and Intel would have a REAL opponent!
Only in a perfect world.

Athlon 1700+, Epox 8RDA (NForce2), Maxtor Diamondmax Plus 9 80GB 8MB cache, 2x256mb Crucial PC2100 in Dual DDR, Geforce 3, Audigy, Z560s, MX500
August 6, 2003 12:39:21 AM

your mother was an idiot for opening her legs that night ya father was drunk and made u

keep the personal insults to yourself.
August 6, 2003 12:41:08 AM

i harldy consider my 2.2 GHZ t-BRED LOW END..

only INTELLIOTS like u think that way.... when hammers rolling and prescotts folding... i wont be too mean feeding u crow youngster.
August 6, 2003 1:04:09 AM

Your right, the 2500+ doesnt generate much cash for AMD.
Though moving product even at a loss IS better though than not moving product at all.. returns some of their cash to allow for changes in lineup, research, whatever.

All consoles are sold at a loss at first to get the hardware out there to the public.. games are where the moneys made in the console business, I'm sure you already know this though.
The only company who is probably not losing $$ on their consoles anymore is sony, though this is only a guess.

I feel it is a shame to see whats going on though in the CPU arena, AMD does need to do something different.
I personally dont even know how someone would go after Intel, you could survive scum sucking off the low end as AMD/Cyrix did for years but it appears as a parallel to the Microsoft verus Netscape of today.
Wheres Netscape? Back at the bottom where MS pretty much put them after a good run for a few years.

I dont know what constitutes a monopoly but with the government of the US going after tobacco companies, M$, why not Intel they've certainly had their fair share of strong arming everyone out.
Takes money to make money (thats the golden rule boys), and maybe it is Intels strongarming that has kept AMD out unfairly, maybe it is AMDs fault.
This is just how I see it.

A great example of how things should be IMHO is ATI/NV, talk about healthy competition that results in our reward.. and those companies are still making money.
Neither one is getting forced into the low end or similar situation by the other.
Granted, ATI seems much more feeble in their core area of VPUs than Intel in CPUs but NV still had a chance, took it and made it, without getting squashed from the billions upon billions of dollars the market leader had at the time.
When your big as intel, AMD should hope a earthquake hits their fabs as thats the only chance of any kind of 50/50 market, or an overtake..(dream on)

Again, only in a perfect world. :smile:

Maybe I'm wrong (I dont want to go back and forth with some random intel fanboy), but thats how I see it.
I dont consider myself a fanboy, I simply see AMD as the best deal for the hardware I currently have today. P4s are nice, work fine, just as my athlons have.

*ching ching* [drops 2 cents, awaits the fanboys]

Athlon 1700+, Epox 8RDA (NForce2), Maxtor Diamondmax Plus 9 80GB 8MB cache, 2x256mb Crucial PC2100 in Dual DDR, Geforce 3, Audigy, Z560s, MX500
a b à CPUs
August 6, 2003 1:04:39 AM

You insulted me first, and I didn't even mention your beautiful mother.

Also, be carefull how you speak of your grandma, grandpa still has a temper you know.

I consider your 2.2GHz t-bred low end :)  In fact, I can't find a fast enough, powerfull enough computer for what I do. Even the latest stuff seems like garbage when you're trying to encode 3 or 4 videos at once.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
August 6, 2003 1:32:58 AM

i really dont care about pope and his stupid comments but I was wondering what this could possibly mean to motherboard manufacturers that guaranteed compatibility with prescott cpus. It would suck if consumers purchased motherboards thinking they could upgrade to a new chip but cant. I know I'll be asking asus that when the prescott comes out.
August 6, 2003 1:57:56 AM

Spaceheater or not this is my opinion of some of what I think is going on and what might happen if CPU price trends continue. It is, however, a rather tentative assessment as the pace of change is so fast. Nonetheless....

Intel seems to have abandoned the low to mid range home computer market. What amazes me, considering the power of todays processors, is that they continue maintain such an amazing market share. Their Celerons do not perform anywhere near as well as XP's although selling at a similar price point and AMD's Athlons and Bartons perform well.

The only way I can see that they have done this is through customer perception, reputation, superior distribution channels and the almost complete domination
of the business market. However, I feel that if this trend continues for any length of time there is going to be a reversal of preceptions. Another factor will be AMD's apparent push on the server market, which I see as a positive step by AMD, but more on that later.

It is my belief that the home market is made up mostly of casual internet users and gamers. These users don't generally need the computational power of high end new technology. The leading edge is the bleeding edge and this
case it means money.I don't think everyone needs a Rolls Royce or a Cadillac. They're going to be very happy with a Honda and we know the respective market share there.
Adding problematic cooling solutions and consequent noise into the situation won't help either. Oh there will always be the "home" user with a need for more power or more bragging rights but I think the majority will opt for the
"Honda".

In business, 1/2 or more of the seats are little more than web application access points. Do you think that a 3.4GHz machine is required? I don't. It's going to take longer in business than the home market and that,more than anything, can keep hurting AMD. This is the same as IBM and their mainframes hung on for years beyond the time they should have. Further, the difference in the cost of an Intel
and an AMD cpu is not that much in the overall cost of a computer. While there is pressure to save cost everywhere in business, the cost of a CPU is generally no more than a small pressure. Larger organizations ordering hundreds or thousands of PC's may find a difference though.


AMD has an excellent opportunity to change business perception in the server market. I think this is about the best strategy they could adopt for this market segment. Success there will lead to inroads to the business desktop
market which they desperately need.

I feel that the market for computers is at a kind of nexus for these kinds of home and business applications and if Intel cannot or will not compete in this low to medium price point then they will face erosion of market share.
Lots of time still remains to them to modify or rethink strategies but I feel that continuing in their present
manner will alter people's perception of them and of course peoples perception of AMD. This has been happening for a number of years for enthusiasts and early adopters of technology. Now could be a time where these perceptions
spread to a larger population base. I say this because my perception of AMD has altered radically over the last year and I consider myself more of an enthusiast than most.

Perhaps Intel has maintained their prices because they can, they are hugely profitable. I don't know their manufacturing costs but by their profits one could guess they could lower prices significantly and still be profitable. Maybe they need to keep AMD in the game not to become a monopoly. Whatever the reason, I feel AMD is still in the running and has time and is learning to run faster.

I no longer recommend Intel at to friends at this juncture. Unless they absolutely need the computing power and I have, perhaps, one of those while I have a dozen of others who don't, AMD is more than good enough and cheaper too.
-----------------------------------------------------

Well lets see what happens. I'm betting AMD makes some
inroads in this round.


The loving are the daring!
August 6, 2003 2:05:43 AM

Your strongarming comment is false.

This, in fact, was a debate with a past pro-AMD user who turned Intel completely (bought an Intel system) once AMD really became dishonest. You may have read him here, Sabbath.
Trust me when I say, he had the same view as you. But I could dig up his thread where you can see that the comment about Intel strongarming is completely false.

In fact, I wish you could back that up! If to make this debate get more interesting, really! Go Kinney, go Kinney!

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August 6, 2003 2:10:17 AM

Furthermore, nVidia COULD make a great AMD buyer, but their marketting could be *GASP!* worse than AMD's -Could it be?-, and imagine what would happen.
Even more inflated PRs, with a "The K7 core is 2003's best GPU" add on their site like they did with the FX5800! OH THE HUMANITY! *cries*

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August 6, 2003 2:11:54 AM

You need some lovin', I got the rubbin'.
Common, let's hump.

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PS: New sexy users' sites now added! :smile: <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 08/05/03 10:12 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
August 6, 2003 2:44:41 AM

Crashman let me know when you get your first Scotty. We'll put it in my IS7 Mobo and I'll let everyone know how it works.
August 6, 2003 2:47:05 AM

Looks like you need a Super Micro Quad Xeon Mp Mobo?
a b à CPUs
August 6, 2003 3:16:42 AM

4GB of RAM would probably be the most helpfull, but an SMP settup would be much appreciated!

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
August 6, 2003 3:23:12 AM

A friend of mine may buy that Mobo. He has alot of gaming servers running. That's one sweet board if you have the money.
August 6, 2003 3:31:22 AM

I remember seeing Sabbaths post, I liked him.

Eh, your looking at the wrong guy for proof.. LOL
Much to lazy, just to prove a stupid point.
Thats why I tried to let everyone know that was just my feelings and assumptions because proving things becomes ever so difficult. :smile:

But for fun, I will post some interesting news if you guys havent read it before.

<b>I want to assert myself that I will not be going back and forth with any of you stupidass fanboys about any of this. This is not directed towards you eden.</b>

First-

Quote:
NEW YORK (CNNfn) - Intel Corp. and Motorola Inc. said Friday they have settled a lawsuit alleging Intel misappropriated trade secrets by hiring more than a dozen of ex-Motorola employees. Terms of the settlement were not disclosed.

The suit focused on the hiring of 15 former Motorola engineers for Intel's microprocessor development center, geared toward the design of chips for use in personal computers, located in Austin, Texas.

Motorola believed Intel expressly set up the new facility to lure away Motorola employees. Motorola's suit was built around an arcane area of business law that says that employees hired by a competing firm would inevitably turn over trade secrets - willfully or not.

"We really believe it accomplished our objective and clearly addresses Motorola's concerns," said Motorola spokeswoman Nan McRaven.

The million dollar question is this: If Intel was not guilty of the crime as charged, why it had to pay to Motorola to drop the charges of stealing trade secrets from Motorola?

<A HREF="http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,7187,00.html" target="_new">Or this fun bit as the FTC Investigates Unfair business practices by intel</A>

<A HREF="http://www.techlawjournal.com/atr/80714intc.htm" target="_new">More here</A>

<A HREF="http://inquirerinside.com/?article=8961" target="_new">But I must say, this piece is my favorite article.. he doesnt deny the monopoly, he just points out how pathetic intel can be in the face of puny AMD and it is all true information</A>

edit- I highly suggest the 3rd link to everyone as its got some damn good points and a not a dry read at least.

Athlon 1700+, Epox 8RDA (NForce2), Maxtor Diamondmax Plus 9 80GB 8MB cache, 2x256mb Crucial PC2100 in Dual DDR, Geforce 3, Audigy, Z560s, MX500<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by kinney on 08/05/03 10:39 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
a b à CPUs
August 6, 2003 3:34:12 AM

I have no money. I have $800 in in-store credit at a local computer store, $5 in my pocket, and I owe zpyhrd $50.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
August 6, 2003 4:43:47 AM

What'd HE do, provide you some of his Hooter ladies?

--
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PS: New sexy users' sites now added! :smile:
August 6, 2003 8:28:50 AM

Your comments are very interesting. However, if I may, I'd like to give a few points that I see...(OK...so I am giving my opinion here....go ahead and shoot me.. LOL!)

It seems to me that Intel has changed their business strategy once they got the performance crown back (Or possibly changed their strategy, THEN got the lead back...). You must admit that they have poured LOTS of money into research to gain the crown back. But now that they have the lead back, and the gap is only widening, they have room to spare.

Obviously, the better your product works, the more of the market you will likely garner. In this case, Intel already has almost TOO MUCH market share. They cannot afford to gain much more. Instead of going for market share, they go for the high end, leaving mid and low end to AMD for now. And if AMD DOES manage to regain a little market share, it gives AMD a better shot at survival, and gives Intel a little more breathing room, to avoid anti-trust allegations and a whirlwind of lawsuits.

By doing this, AMD survives a while longer, possibly giving them more time to do something to save themselves, without a "serious" threat of Intel moving in on them more than is currently happening.

However, as with all things, the more time you give, the bigger, better, faster, and more you get, which means that by this time next year, The current high-end processors will become mid-range, and in 2 years, will be considered low-end. If Intel keeps their tech roadmap and their current pricing scheme, they will pretty much own price/performance in high, mid, and low end system categories in 2 years, as they are constantly introducing bigger, better, faster things...and price/performance is the only thing AMD has to sell right now (for desktop). And as we all know, AMD won't stay afloat just by selling Opterons.

Even we enthusiasts upgrade our computers in this same manner. Most of us will not pay top dollar for our upgrades, but rather, we will wait until it becomes more within our price range and becomes more feasible. Then, we enthusiasts, much like the normal consumer, buy. (Ever go to an after-Christmas sale?) Eventually, using this model, Intel will have a processor thats available to all consumers, at the price they want. And to top it all off, if AMD were to come up with something between now and then, all Intel would have to do would be to drop prices to comparative levels, and force a move from AMD to drop their prices further.

What makes it all worse is the fact that Intel has been the "Standard" by which ALL other processors have been measured. It's kinda hard to win when playing by someone else's rules and they keep on changing the rules...

I hate to be a doomsayer, but it does appear that Intel may be on the only path available to them. They have to continue to be the leader of this market and keep their investors happy, yet they have to do what they can to keep AMD alive too. And unfortunately, it appears that in the next few years, unless AMD "pulls a rabbit out of their hat", Intel won't be able to do anything to stop the inevitable, where AMD folds, and Intel gets broken up as a monopoly. But from there...who knows where the future will go?....



<font color=blue> Ok, so you have to put your "2 cents" in, but its value is only "A penny's worth". Who gets that extra penny? </font color=blue>
August 6, 2003 12:25:03 PM

You know poopy, you are just so rabid about being anti-intel even if you hated amd also, you would be a zealot for them. It's pretty funny actually when you stop to think about it. A zealot flaming... people for being... zealots.

Personally, Intel is tops right now, I suspect based on what has been published thus far it won't be changing in the near future even with 100w of heat.

The vast majority of people are fanatics for whatever is presently tops. I generally prefer intel, but they can't compare mid/low range to amd very well performance to price wise.

Shadus
August 6, 2003 2:04:31 PM

I am pretty tired of loud computers to get good performance. I'm pretty happy with my P4C with a Zalman CNPS7000 now, though it does run at up to 60 deg C at load.
August 6, 2003 2:29:22 PM

While I can see your point of view, I completely disagree with your final conclusion. This kind of argument will certainly make you choose one company over another, but that is not the choice that is to be made. I usually choose a processor, NOT a company! I think that makes more sense as a consumer, and I can't see the vast majority of people thinking differently.

<font color=red><b>M</b></font color=red>ephistopheles
August 6, 2003 3:08:21 PM

Thanks for the tactful reply slvr phoenix...It's good to know that there are people out there that have a lil-bit-o old fashioned class and knowledge...

Let me clarify a few things you asked on:
Quote:
And I really don't understand what you were trying to say that he was trying to be general in his posts. Could you please clarify?

What I meant there is regarding the stigma he was attaching to Intel fans and AMD fans. I think he was being vague and broad to accentuate his argument. Despite this being the wrong approach at providing support for any argument...I would tend to agree with him on this in one part only and I went into detail on this part in the first paragraph of my last post. Summed up...Intel has been synonymous with stable, higher priced top performing CPU's and AMD has been synonymous with high heat, lower end, lower performance, reasonably priced, overclockable CPU's.

I think we are seeing a change with this though as clock speeds are going up. Intel has a clear advantage with hyper threading and the FSB speed. But what would happen if AMD jumped their bus up significantly? Then hyper threading might be the only thing separating them, and that is just a way of processing data. Perhaps instead of 2 threads, someone will come up with a way to do 4 threads? Super-Hyper threading anyone? :p  Sorry, got off on a tangent there. What I'm saying is...even though pope was being general for the wrong reason and stereotyping people...I thought there was a little bit of truth to that stereotype.

Point taken on the lack of competition. That's something I've not really thought about before. Now that I do think about it, you may be right. I have a feeling that growth in technology for CPU's will stagnate soon though as we run out of room for transistors. Hopefully that will slow it down enough for other components to catch up.

I also agree with you that AMD really needs to take a reality check and reform their company from the inside to the outside. They have major internal problems that limit their company potential. I think perhaps they've been playing catch up for so long that they don't know how to come up with original ideas that could vault them to the front. You know, you can only get second place for so long before you start to not even miss getting first place. Perhaps they're just filling the role they've been placed in and are having a difficult time hopping out of the rut...know what I mean? Then again, I might be an incredible arse that just has a bass ackwards opinion. That's about it from me.

PS: Good to know that there are people that come here that aren't just enthusiasts but actual *gasp* engineers/programmers with some knowledge to share. i.e. I do the electrical engineering thing, which makes it nice for Tshooting hardware probs but makes me a retarded donkey when it comes to software probs. I'm glad for THGC cuz I've been helped so much here it's not even funny. I'd be lost if I didn't have it to help me with my winblows probs and program snafu's. Anyways...I hope pope takes the time (dunno if he will) to check out the way an intellectual, well thought out posting exchange is supposed to go and uses this new found experience to his advantage.

<font color=red>Alcohol, the cause of and solution to all life's problems. </font color=red>
<font color=green>Homer Simpson</font color=green>

TKS
August 6, 2003 3:26:56 PM

Two words...couch smores

here's the recipe:

-Get all chocolate/marshmallow and a small twig or stick within reach on your couch
-Get a lighter
-Drink beer until Margaret Thatcher or Ellen Degeneres looks hot
-combine chocolate/marshmallow on small twig/stick and use lighter to attain desired perfection of melted ingredients
-smush ingredients into graham crackers and eat
-wash down with more beer
-wash beer used to wash down smores with hard alcohol or more beer preferably from a freshly opened container as to avoid melted markshmallow contamination from top of previously quaffed beverage contianer.

VioLA! Couch SMORES! These are especially good when coming off of a 3 day alcohol binge in an East Coast beach house with limited food supply. Copy this recipe down cuz itsa keeper!

<font color=red>Alcohol, the cause of and solution to all life's problems. </font color=red>
<font color=green>Homer Simpson</font color=green>

TKS
August 6, 2003 4:10:21 PM

I feel I did choose a processor.. my reasoning for not choosing intel now is because I already have the hardware to easily upgrade my athlon and get the same performance for about $100 (2500+) rather than a new mobo ($150) + a retail fan/hs cpu combo ($180?).

I dont consider myself a "low end" guy as I like performance but I might be a cheapskate and even though the 800mhz fsb P4s are awesome I have trouble not feeling the athlon processor is so great competition anymore, but the Nforce2 is where the athlons real strength lays now.

That company chipset is a godsend for AMD.
I'm building a 2nd system just because they are such nice setups and I doubt any non gaming user could max out a loaded nforce2 with a 2500+.
And a gamer such as myself finds it a very good deal for a 2nd machine.

Ok im rambling.. anyway.
:smile:

Athlon 1700+, Epox 8RDA (NForce2), Maxtor Diamondmax Plus 9 80GB 8MB cache, 2x256mb Crucial PC2100 in Dual DDR, Geforce 3, Audigy, Z560s, MX500
August 6, 2003 6:46:22 PM

No i totally agree...it seems like many people here enjoy watching 3dmark more than they enjoy playing games...most games don't even rely on the graphics card...hell i bet a pIII with a 9700pro would be able to play all games out today at good frame rates...

If i put my k6 in a Ferrari it would be faster than your your pentium 4 or Athlon XP :tongue:
August 6, 2003 7:34:36 PM

Interesting how you ignore intelligent posts poopy...

Shadus
August 6, 2003 8:22:02 PM

This is where you can be wrong. Lately we've had the worst of monkey programmers, making games entirely depending on CPU. That in turn, makes even excellent old P3 systems with such high-end cards, obsolete, VIRTUALLY!

As long as we live in crap programming, we'll get that sad reality.

--
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PS: New sexy users' sites now added! :smile:
August 6, 2003 8:34:07 PM

That and some games are just such memory hogs that you'd be hard-pressed to find an actual P3 owner with enough memory to not be slogged down by the switch to virtual memory. Hell, I had to upgrade the RAM on my Celeron500 just so that my wife could play The Sims with only three expansions installed.

<font color=purple><pre><A HREF="http://www.winamp.com" target="_new">Winamp<b><font color=blue>3</font color=blue></b></A> and freeform skins, the best thing since sliced llama loaf. (Now with more beef.)</pre><p></font color=purple>
August 6, 2003 9:40:06 PM

NO don't say such things...your making my pIII sound obsolete :frown:

I know very little about programing...but i do agree...splinter cell could quite possibly be the most inefficiently programmed game ever...it gets less than 90fps on top of the line systems...

If i put my k6 in a Ferrari it would be faster than your your pentium 4 or Athlon XP :tongue:
August 6, 2003 10:42:06 PM

UT 2003 actually takes quite a bit to run it smoothly as well. But i think that's just because the amount of polygons (smooth structures that look smooth!) :) 

I'm just your average habitual smiler =D
August 6, 2003 11:12:23 PM

well since my birthday is commin up...i think i am gonna give myself a treat and get a 9500 non pro and a celery 1.1....we'll see how my gamming performance increases...it should increase by quite a bit compared to my pIII 700 and Rage pro 8mb (haw haw)...

If i put my k6 in a Ferrari it would be faster than your your pentium 4 or Athlon XP :tongue:
August 7, 2003 12:46:23 AM

why are you jocking me so hard INTELIOTT?
!