Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question
Closed

Desktop heap in windows 7 and the ability to run a large number of programs simu

Last response: in Windows 7
Share
July 15, 2009 11:57:28 PM

I currently have an HP Pavillion computer: windows vista premium; 64 bit quad 4 processor; 8 gb of ram. When I have a large number of IE windows open (over 100) after a period of time my computer develops graphics problems and I get out of resource error messeges from other programs running. This occurs even though I am only using half of the 8 gb ram I have. I have to shut down some processes to fix the problem. I did some research and this may have to do with desktop heap failure. I have the setting for destop heap set to the maximum recommended for windows vista 64k bit. Is Windows 7 any better at handling desktop heap and therefore can allow more programs to run simutanously?
July 16, 2009 1:19:42 AM

not sure, but had to ask why would you have over a hundred ie windows open.

side note
firefox uses less resources perhaps a simple browser switch can fix your problem
Score
0
a c 209 $ Windows 7
July 16, 2009 8:04:24 AM

johninsacramento said:
I currently have an HP Pavillion computer: windows vista premium; 64 bit quad 4 processor; 8 gb of ram. When I have a large number of IE windows open (over 100) after a period of time my computer develops graphics problems and I get out of resource error messeges from other programs running. This occurs even though I am only using half of the 8 gb ram I have. I have to shut down some processes to fix the problem. I did some research and this may have to do with desktop heap failure. I have the setting for destop heap set to the maximum recommended for windows vista 64k bit. Is Windows 7 any better at handling desktop heap and therefore can allow more programs to run simutanously?


Can't help you with respect to the Win 7 situation, but this article describes how to increase the size of the desktop heap if you're running into it's limitations...
Score
0
Related resources
July 16, 2009 9:27:22 AM

I wonder if it could be to do with you running out of video memory. Each window takes up a bit of your video memory, though I think it only happens if you are running Aero. So if you have too many windows open, it could well be that your video card has ran out of memory, which is why you are getting those graphical problems.

What graphics hardware do you have installed?
Score
0
a b $ Windows 7
July 16, 2009 11:46:00 AM

johninsacramento said:
Is Windows 7 any better at handling desktop heap and therefore can allow more programs to run simutanously?


Yah - Per the following: http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/2009/04/25/engineering...

johninsacramento said:
I currently have an HP Pavillion
computer: windows vista premium; 64 bit quad 4 processor; 8 gb of ram. When I have a large number of IE windows open (over 100) after a period of time my computer develops graphics problems and I get out of resource error messeges from other programs running. This occurs even though I am only using half of the 8 gb ram I have.


You're running out because 32 bit apps can still only take advantage of (up to) 4GB worth of address space.
Score
0
July 16, 2009 4:54:14 PM

505090 said:
not sure, but had to ask why would you have over a hundred ie windows open.

side note
firefox uses less resources perhaps a simple browser switch can fix your problem

I do medical research and I open many web pages and keep them open. I use IE 8 without add-ons. I can open many more web pages without add-ons.
Score
0
July 16, 2009 4:55:52 PM

Lippy13 said:
I wonder if it could be to do with you running out of video memory. Each window takes up a bit of your video memory, though I think it only happens if you are running Aero. So if you have too many windows open, it could well be that your video card has ran out of memory, which is why you are getting those graphical problems.

What graphics hardware do you have installed?


I have a NVDIA 9500 GS with 512 mb ram. I am not using Aero.
Score
0
a c 209 $ Windows 7
July 16, 2009 6:07:06 PM

Scotteq said:
Yah - Per the following: http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/2009/04/25/engineering...

You're running out because 32 bit apps can still only take advantage of (up to) 4GB worth of address space.

I see nothing in the article you linked to that talks about changes to the allocations for session state or the desktop heap.

And the 4GB limit in 32-bit systems has nothing to do with the limit on the desktop heap. If you look at the article I linked to above you'll see that by default the heap for each session is well under 1MB in size. You can increase it through the registry settings mentioned in the article.
Score
0
July 16, 2009 7:30:04 PM

sminlal said:
I see nothing in the article you linked to that talks about changes to the allocations for session state or the desktop heap.

And the 4GB limit in 32-bit systems has nothing to do with the limit on the desktop heap. If you look at the article I linked to above you'll see that by default the heap for each session is well under 1MB in size. You can increase it through the registry settings mentioned in the article.



I have the desktop heap setting set to the highest levels recommended by Microsoft. When you open numberous applications (each instance of IE is an application) you can exhaust Desktop heap. I have read that numerous problems can occur: starting more applications will not start; getting out of memory errors etc. This seems to occur even though you have lots of Ram still available. In my case I seem to be getting graphics problems.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/947246

Score
0
a c 209 $ Windows 7
July 17, 2009 4:14:40 AM

johninsacramento said:
I have the desktop heap setting set to the highest levels recommended by Microsoft. When you open numberous applications (each instance of IE is an application) you can exhaust Desktop heap.
Don't take this as gospel, but I suspect you're running into an architectural limitation. I wouldn't hold out a great deal of hope for higher limits in Windows 7 - it's a lot more like Vista than Vista is like XP.

Do you really have separate IE *windows* open? If desktop heap is the issue then you might be able to get more web pages up by opening them in tabs instead of windows. Or perhaps a combination of fewer windows with more tabs in each window...
Score
0
July 17, 2009 5:42:58 AM

sminlal said:
Don't take this as gospel, but I suspect you're running into an architectural limitation. I wouldn't hold out a great deal of hope for higher limits in Windows 7 - it's a lot more like Vista than Vista is like XP.

Do you really have separate IE *windows* open? If desktop heap is the issue then you might be able to get more web pages up by opening them in tabs instead of windows. Or perhaps a combination of fewer windows with more tabs in each window...


Yes I open about 10-15 tabs per window. From the little bit of research I have done it appears that there is a limit on how many processes you can run under Vista. You can still have plenty of ram memory left. In fact when I have about 100 IE tabs/windows (mostly tabs) open I still have 50% ram left. It seems to me that the limitation on the number of running processes you can have should be determined by available ram memory/virtual memory and not on the number of processes you have running. I was hoping that in windows 7 that the limit on the number of processes you can have running would be increased. I understand that "desktop heap" limits the number of processes you can run simutaneously. A user here and a tech at Fry's electronics mentioned 32 bit applications like IE would not be able to open more IE processes (more tabs/windows) once it has reached 4 gb of address space. However, this can't be my problem because when I have the problems with all of my running programs (graphics related). I get error messages (out of resources) from other running processes like word when I only have 1 single file of word running.
Score
0
July 17, 2009 2:50:41 PM

You could check if it is a problem with 32bit IE by using the 64bit version. It should already be installed on your system but if not you can download it from microsoft. It seems to be a bit more stable than the 32bit version for me, though it doesn't support flash so that might mean it's of less use to you.
Score
0
July 17, 2009 4:23:07 PM

ragsmaloy said:
You could check if it is a problem with 32bit IE by using the 64bit version. It should already be installed on your system but if not you can download it from microsoft. It seems to be a bit more stable than the 32bit version for me, though it doesn't support flash so that might mean it's of less use to you.



The problem I am having can be more generically described like this: suppose you want to run a large number of applications: games; lots of word files; Internet Explorer, Firefox etc. You have 50% Ram memory remaining, yet you get out of resources errors and your applications don't display correctly and your graphics are all garbled and jumbling all over the screen. You are forced to close some applications (some IE tabs or word files etc) and most of the problems are fixed. Graphics in Firefox, if open, are not fixed by closing down some processes (I have to close it and restart it after the problems start).

Hypothetically if the problem involved using up all the 4 gb address space of a 32 bit application such as IE 32 bit how does this affect all my other programs. I understand that maybe IE 32 bit would malfunction, but should word 32 bit also be affected ( when I only have 1 file open for it - I am not exhausting it's 4 gb address space). After all I still have 50 % RAM left - I have 8 GB RAM total).
Score
0
a b $ Windows 7
July 17, 2009 7:26:02 PM

The problem is you don't have 4GB per process, you have 4GB TOTAL. Each process is actually limited to 2GB, not 4GB. So one IE window with a lot of tabs open could theoretically exhaust that 2GB very quickly. Even with 64-bit Windows, each 32-bit process is limited to 2GB... the only difference is that they aren't limited to 2GB below the first 4GB.
Score
0
a c 209 $ Windows 7
July 17, 2009 9:31:49 PM

johninsacramento said:
It seems to me that the limitation on the number of running processes you can have should be determined by available ram memory/virtual memory and not on the number of processes you have running.
The problem is that the 4GB of RAM isn't the only limitation. There are a lot of other resources in the system that are required to support every process, such as handles, message queues, virtual memory page table entries, etc. etc.

The designers have chosen a configuration they believe will work for most people, but I suspect that what you're trying to do is simply beyond what they've allowed for.

If simple browsing is your primary need, you might consider looking into a Linux solution. I couldn't tell you for sure that you'd be able to open more windows, but the open-source systems by their nature tend to be more flexible and even if a stock installation couldn't do what you want there's a pretty good chance you could find a way to do it.
Score
0
a c 209 $ Windows 7
July 17, 2009 9:49:37 PM

Zoron said:
The problem is you don't have 4GB per process, you have 4GB TOTAL. Each process is actually limited to 2GB, not 4GB. So one IE window with a lot of tabs open could theoretically exhaust that 2GB very quickly. Even with 64-bit Windows, each 32-bit process is limited to 2GB... the only difference is that they aren't limited to 2GB below the first 4GB.

Actually, none of these statements are true...

An application process has access to 4GB of virtual space which is normally split as 2GB for the program and 2GB for the system, but can be adjusted to 3GB for the program and 1GB for the system using the "/3GB" boot option.

The TOTAL amount of virtual address space for all processes is whatever RAM you have plus the size of all your pagefiles. Since pagefiles can be a maximum of 4GB, and since you can have up to 16 pagefiles, this means you can have up to 64GB (plus RAM size) of virtual address space allocated. In reality you'd likely run out of virtual memory PTEs (Page Table Entries) long before you were able to allocate that much space.

In 64-bit Windows, a 32-bit process actually has access to the entire 4GB of 32-bit virtual address space because the system resides in the upper portion of 64-bit address space.

See this PDF article for more details.
Score
0
a b $ Windows 7
July 19, 2009 2:14:20 AM

Ok.. so I misunderstood things I've read then. Thanks for the correction.
Score
0
July 19, 2009 5:06:22 PM

So does Windows 7 and Vista have a limit on the number of processes that can run regardless of the amount of Ram memory/virtual memory. So if I increased my Ram memory to 128 GB would I still have the same problems?

Can't my available Ram be ued to meet the graphics needs of my system. Even though I have 4 GB RAm free can't this be used for graphics?
Score
0
a c 209 $ Windows 7
July 19, 2009 8:31:31 PM

johninsacramento said:
Can't my available Ram be ued to meet the graphics needs of my system. Even though I have 4 GB RAm free can't this be used for graphics?
The problem is it takes memory to manage memory. It's kind of like a disk drive - when you format a disk drive you find that some of the space is not available for file storage - that space is used for the directories that identify the files, tracks where they are, and maps the used and free space on the drive.

Memory is the same, but memory management is complicated by the fact that every application can have MORE addresses than the actual RAM you have, as well as share the same system addresses, some of which aren't allowed to be moved out of physical RAM, etc. etc. I'm not an expert at this, but I appreciate the fact that the designers have to make tradeoffs when they implement these things and they try to strike a balance that works for both low-end and high-end systems.

If I can make a very crude analogy, it's kind of like asking why can't I build a 10-mile-high building since there's plenty of vertical space available on my lot. It's true that there's a lot of space up there, but to make use of it is not necessarily an easy task.

Here's an MSDN article that describes the virtual and physical address space limitations on various versions of windows: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366778(VS.85).aspx. This isn't directly related to the desktop heap issue, but it makes interesting reading (IMHO) ;) 
Score
0
August 10, 2010 12:10:06 AM

johninsacramento said:
I currently have an HP Pavillion computer: windows vista premium; 64 bit quad 4 processor; 8 gb of ram. When I have a large number of IE windows open (over 100) after a period of time my computer develops graphics problems and I get out of resource error messeges from other programs running. This occurs even though I am only using half of the 8 gb ram I have. I have to shut down some processes to fix the problem. I did some research and this may have to do with desktop heap failure. I have the setting for destop heap set to the maximum recommended for windows vista 64k bit. Is Windows 7 any better at handling desktop heap and therefore can allow more programs to run simutanously?



Hi,

I just wanted to note that it may be the heap that is running out of space. This is a fixed value per "desktop" where a windows operating system has a number of "desktops"

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ntdebugging/archive/2007/01/04/...

And here is a site on changing the configured limit.
http://www.rojakpot.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=238

I run into this issue since I regularly open too many "Windows". Every window and item in a window, File menu, etc..., takes memory from the heap which has a configured limit that it not related to available RAM.

I'm still using XP for the computer where this is manly an issue and have increased the heap there. Not sure about Windows 7 but I imagine with the above you research this and can find out.
Score
0
a b $ Windows 7
August 10, 2010 12:14:05 AM

johninsacramento posted that mesage in July 2009 more than a year ago. He is no longer active on the forum. Check the date of posts before replying.
Score
0
August 10, 2010 1:51:56 AM

badge said:
johninsacramento posted that mesage in July 2009 more than a year ago. He is no longer active on the forum. Check the date of posts before replying.



Thanks badge.

I did note this but since people may still be reading this from searches, such as I did, I thought it might be good to add the extra information which is more likely to be what the user was experiencing, and what users are likely to continue to experience, when they open one too many windows and/or browser tabs.

Score
0
a b $ Windows 7
August 10, 2010 2:11:34 AM




Right, no problem. The first thing I noticed when opening the Windows 7 forum was a thread with two thousand two-hundred + views. Many times old threads are brought to the forefront of the forum and happen to be totally irrelevant to any discussion. This thread has some very knowledgable posters who have contributed, so there may be further comment. This is often the case when an old, dead thread shows up at the top. Welcome BTW.
Score
0
a b $ Windows 7
August 10, 2010 2:14:58 AM

Is Steverey any reference to the better of the two Vaughn guitarist?
Score
0
a b $ Windows 7
August 10, 2010 2:24:25 AM

This topic has been closed by Mousemonkey
Score
0
!