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Atheism Discussion

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June 30, 2011 2:26:06 PM

I wanted to start this forum because there wasn't one previously, which shocked me of course. So here we are and to any creationist that try to preach here I let you but with only one request: Back up your preachings with evidence.

I believe, no I know that we can't prove or disprove the existence of a higher power, but it is more logical to believe that there is none for it is next to impossible.

There are many religions out there, how to know which one is right: Is it Allah or God? Atman or Zeus? If you are raised in India you believe in Atman, if you had been raised in ancient greece you would believe in Zeus. So how can people in their specific religion know they are right, until someone proves it I remain an atheist.

More about : atheism discussion

June 30, 2011 3:11:06 PM

Pray for a shred of grace.
June 30, 2011 3:12:38 PM

badge said:
Pray for a shred of grace.

Ha
Related resources
June 30, 2011 5:06:03 PM

You know when you get scared at the movies or from some imagined threat? Your brain cant tell the difference between actually being chased by a T-1000 and watching Arnold try and kill Edward Furlong.

My point being is if you believe in God(s) your brain makes it so, it cant tell the difference between God existing and God not existing. Some people NEED that, ya know the whole opiate of the people thing. Which at the time would be like saying the Tylenol of the people, it comforts them.

Quote:
The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity.
-Carl Sagan

June 30, 2011 5:07:18 PM

Anyone ever read into Buddhism and quantum physics?
June 30, 2011 5:35:33 PM

shredder777 said:


I believe, no I know that we can't prove or disprove the existence of a higher power, but it is more logical to believe that there is none for it is next to impossible.


So you should have called this thread "agnosticism discussion". Atheism is different, it means you believe that god doesn't exist, agnosticism is when you just don't know.

(that was all i have to say. sorry for interrupt. )
June 30, 2011 5:47:22 PM

See old man we can agree on some things.

Since Shredder hasn't provided any opinions other than god doesnt exist (Duh) my feelings on the subject are as follows:

The chances of you being here are 1/∞ . Also known as so unlikely it will never ever happen. The chances that gravity, nuclear force, speed of light, hydrogen and helium being the weights they are, in the proper quantities is not possible. but over a long enough timeline anything and everything will happen. The proper conditions for a star to ignite or permanently hold a planet in the Goldilocks zone are for all practical purposes never going to happen. This takes a million monkey typing for a million years thing to a whole new level.

Buddhism says that we are all one, and at one point we were. Something came from nothing (Loosely speaking) Everything that is in the universe occupied one infinitely small point. So Buddhists were right we are literally one with the universe, every single atom at one pint shared the same cramped apartment with every other atom.

Immediately after the big bang there wasnt too much except for helium and hydrogen. Now somewhere in the seconds following the big bang all of the subatomic particles that make up you and me were floating around out there, along with all the material that makes up your keyboard,puppies,Muslims and mountain dew can towers.

All of those heavy elements became attracted to each other through gravity until there was so much matter fusion happened and thus the first light in the universe. These guys burned for a few billion years eventually exploding and releasing more complex elements(Lead, Carbon, Gold, literally everything) Repeat for a few Billion years and then you start to get a bunch of material.

Now this is interesting because the sub atomic particles that make up you and me were at one point in the fukking heart of a SUN. If that doesn't invoke some awe in you then you may be a reptilian space lizard(Im on to you).

Then ~5 billion years ago a nearby Star went supernova releasing tons of material and energy. shite cools down starts to condense again until it achieves fusion and our sun is born! pushes out the 1% of material that didn't collapse into hellfire and achieved a stable orbit in just the right place, with just the right size, and just enough ocean. Not to mention our lazy roomate the moon.

Then evolution starts after enough complex organic material fell into the right chain and life started a world wide king of the hill challenge (Humans = WINNING).


My point being is look up some clear night and see all of the other stars and realize that of all the shite in the universe a few elements formed just the right way at just the right time to give you guys access to this forum. When you run the numbers (Try it Some time) it comes out to impossible. That means gentlemen that every single one of us has won the lottery and the payout was 1/∞. But at the same time I also believe that when your time is up that's it, you're done. No after life, no reincarnation (Abstractly maybe) nada. So enjoy it while you can.
June 30, 2011 6:07:00 PM

But that's even funnier science has a creation story that for the time being cant be proved definitively. Its all just theories. Just pick the theory you are most comfortable with and roll with it. Everyone does it. Some people just start wars over their theory. And some donate food to the poor.
July 1, 2011 12:44:43 AM

Remember all those old civilizations before what we today call God?
Didnt think so

Oh wait, people back then were stupid because we couldnt measure the speed of light, or have a defined instance of what today we call gravity.

That proves it, at first, these things were fine with God and people, but after time, people evolved these things, this knowledge to themselves, and have become godlike, makes sense to me.

Whens the last time knowing the speed of light fed someone?
Maybe all those Godless civilazations just starved to death?
July 1, 2011 1:08:37 AM

Here is the deal:

The basis of Creation/ Evolution is that there needs to be a fore acting upon the system. Now, roll in that mud puddle for a while and you get to realize it is more speculation that theory or fact.

Science is the basis of accepting an idea of how something works...not to prove anything actually happens. If one could prove the laws of Thermodynamics, then why can't we manipulate them to achieve super-light speed?

Also, the basis for the STC must also exist for anything to exist. I think of the STC as a table before the meal. Without the table, where does one eat? The floor/ That would be a disaster, none the less.

Here is my point:

Yes, What created God is a good question, but what created the Big Bang? What forces acted upon it? How can the STC be there when the laws of physics were never there. That means the Big bang violate the Laws of physics and therefor cannot be created upon or active at the time...or never. Plus, the BB was a mass discharge of electromagnetic energy...like light. What did God create first after the heavens and the earth?
July 1, 2011 2:08:39 AM

Interestingly enough, God exists outside of time.
Nothing thats been here first, or created by God exists, but that whats already here.
Were just now accepting other dimensional possibilities, its about time, since the people of God has known this for thousands of years
July 1, 2011 12:25:47 PM

dogman_1234 said:
Here is the deal:

The basis of Creation/ Evolution is that there needs to be a fore acting upon the system. Now, roll in that mud puddle for a while and you get to realize it is more speculation that theory or fact.

Science is the basis of accepting an idea of how something works...not to prove anything actually happens. If one could prove the laws of Thermodynamics, then why can't we manipulate them to achieve super-light speed?

Also, the basis for the STC must also exist for anything to exist. I think of the STC as a table before the meal. Without the table, where does one eat? The floor/ That would be a disaster, none the less.

Here is my point:

Yes, What created God is a good question, but what created the Big Bang? What forces acted upon it? How can the STC be there when the laws of physics were never there. That means the Big bang violate the Laws of physics and therefor cannot be created upon or active at the time...or never. Plus, the BB was a mass discharge of electromagnetic energy...like light. What did God create first after the heavens and the earth?



I understand where you are going with that, and I could buy into god is the laws that govern the universe. But the problem here is (especially with the big bang) if we talk about the BB then we know it has a beginning and If it has a beginning then it must have a cause. If the cause is God then you run into logic issues such as god must have a beginning and a cause to exist and on and on.

So can something happen uncaused? Or are we just not asking the right questions?
July 1, 2011 12:35:39 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
God is infinite. He has no beginning or end. He just is.


If you believe that then the discussion is already over. You cant prove it and I cant disprove it. But it doesnt make sense. I mean what a sick bastard if he creates an imperfect universe then forces us to live here for what, his amusement? Why do bad things happen to good people? If God is responsible for the whole universe then why doesnt he make it a little more hospitable? Or just as a sign of good faith(pun intended) why not eradicate cancer? It makes more sense when you drop God out of the picture, cold hard chaos. That would explain why bad things happen to good people, wars, famine, mass extinction. God also gives too much credit to someone else, you are here because Humans are the most adaptable, smartest creatures on this planet. To say we were created that way would belittle everything your ancestors have done, even the single celled ones.
July 1, 2011 1:37:07 PM

Religion is the opium of the masses.

Cull all of the fanatics I say ... a quick injection and into the mulcher and mixed into the compost for the fields ... blood and bone.

I do have time for the poor misguided weak willed who do believe in god ... as I feel I need to help them where possible to stand on their own two feet eventually.

Many get sucked in when they become ill ... the whole "after death" insurance policy.

I do think strong religious conviction should be labelled as a mental disorder ... and many share my view in that regard.

In saying that I do believe that we should encourage those of all religions to work together for the common good ... that being primarily to worship me.

Next ...
July 1, 2011 1:43:21 PM

Hey Reynod if I sign up now can i get a commanding position in your army cult Religion?

I like the ring of Pope Mingo.

This isnt one of those no sex of caffeine religions is it? Mingo dont play that.

Whats the name of your religion? So i can get the t-shirts and coffee mugs emblazoned.
July 1, 2011 1:46:34 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
Believing in a creator is NOT religion. Chritianity, Judaism, Islam are religions.

mingo, God just set the universe in motion. It's up to us what we do with it.



So God is the idea of the fundamental forces that make our universe? Or that literally something shaped like us is out there watching, waiting, counting the fall of every sparrow, and punishing the wicked?

Then we come back to what made god? He must have an origin, a creator. Thats almost scarier, its like you know you have a dad and he is the coolest guy in the universe but he wants nothing to do with you. Just once a long time ago he put some events into motion.
July 1, 2011 2:02:33 PM

Then /thread.

This is what they call faith:
strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence.

Wouldnt there also be a bit more magic?

Quote:
Scientists at LHC released evidence that the electrical bonds holding the universe together is in fact Magic, yes folks magic is real and science has found it.
July 1, 2011 2:02:35 PM

gropouce said:
So you should have called this thread "agnosticism discussion". Atheism is different, it means you believe that god doesn't exist, agnosticism is when you just don't know.

(that was all i have to say. sorry for interrupt. http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/images/perso/1/alone-tonight.gif )


I said that we cant disprove God but I still don't believe in his existence just because there is more evidence on the contrary.
July 1, 2011 2:04:40 PM

Youve been awfully silent on this shredder what are your views on religion and God?
July 1, 2011 2:13:18 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
Trying to understand the creator is impossible. In my mind, he created the universe with a mere thought. Time has no meaning. He is the alpha and the omega. He has always been and will always be long after this universe is gone.


Okay imagine two different worlds. In the first God is apparent. He is visible like the sun. There would be no atheists right.
The second world for sure has no god. eventually however, people invents a god, and other people invent another god and so on.
Which world sounds more like ours?

God is nothing more than an excuse. He was invented by man to answer the great questions of life. Until we either see him, or get evidence for him we should not believe in him.

Another thing I am talking about all gods. That is another thing most of you here believe in God from christianity. Other people believe in Bratman, others in Allah. If you had grown up in ancient greece you would belive in Zeus, if you grew up with the nord tribes of scandinavia you would believe in thor. When you realize why you don't believe in the gods of other religions, then you will know why atheists belive in no god.

As for evolution, its not a matter of "if" but "when" we find the required evidence to fill the gaps. Although religious people comment on the gaps of our arguments, they fail to see the gaps of their own argument which has many more than ours.

However if you really believe god exist then prove it.
July 1, 2011 2:14:35 PM

wanamingo said:
Youve been awfully silent on this shredder what are your views on religion and God?


I have to sleep man. I am back though the above post highlights most of my vies.
July 1, 2011 2:21:38 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
The evidence is all around you. Your very existence is proof.


I agree. Our existence is proof of evolution.
July 1, 2011 2:24:30 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
Evolution doesn't explain creation though.


No, but neither does religion. And if it does, which religion proves it?
July 1, 2011 2:25:54 PM

Schopenhauer spoke of this and the subjective german idealist philosophical framework fits well in terms of explaining this delusion.

I am more of an objective idealist so you can keep your rose colured glasses on whilst I look upong the world in all of its majesty and terror ... unblinking ... and accepting the fact that when I die there will be nothing.

In the meantime I am happy to be a small god ... just a few followers will be enough.

Niesche would be proud of me.

Mingo ... you shall be known as the metal pope ... spread the word of the guitar gods ...


July 1, 2011 2:46:52 PM

Sweet ... your "alternative " avatar.

IMPRESSED.

What say we offer oldman the position of "Inquisiter General' ??

He seems to like torture ... better we have him on our side.

He should read up on the Jesuits and the inquisition ...

:) 
July 1, 2011 2:52:10 PM

shredder777 said:
I said that we cant disprove God but I still don't believe in his existence just because there is more evidence on the contrary.


Then the whole point in this is what?
July 1, 2011 2:55:47 PM

dogman_1234 said:
Then the whole point in this is what?


That evidence points towards God not having created man or the universe. If God did,'t do that then there is no point in him, therefore he is just a figment of imagination for people who can't be bothered to look for logical answers for questions.
July 1, 2011 2:56:49 PM

shredder777 said:
No, but neither does religion. And if it does, which religion proves it?


Religion is not a scientific organization. it is a based community where those of the same faith can come together and be in communion with each other. Saying 'religion' can't prove anything is correct, but there are these of faith. quit using the religion card and try to reason with faith, which is by the very nature of humans to understand a supernatural being. Could also explain our very nature created to get closer to a god.

Oldmangamer_73 said:
Nope, religion doesn't explain it either. That's why I blieve in a creator but don't follow any religion because religion is man made and man is flawed. So religion is flawed.

Belief in a creator and belief in a religion are two different things.

I believe in that book I linked more than the bible as far as history goes.


Religion is flawed..it is run by man. I am Christian, but i do not say I am religious. People misunderstand faith on so many ways. Many think faith makes you blind to the understanding of the physical universe...actually for me, it is because of God I want to know more of the universe and what he as done so, science is a way to see the works of God.
July 1, 2011 3:29:43 PM

I read Deepack's book "Mohommad" and it was very interesting ... not in the same category as Siddhartha though.

I found a well but after carrying back a bucket of water I thought ... prophet just isn't me ... so I thought I'd skip that bit go straight to deity ... minor at the moment of course.

I spent some time today training my army of ants ... they are most unrully and do not respond well to telepathic direction.

Ideas ??
July 1, 2011 3:43:45 PM

Neil diamond only works to calm the savage beast (my wife when upset).

badge is the expert on using music for warlike purposes ...
July 1, 2011 3:50:26 PM

America, Dr Hook, Bread and The Doobie Brothers don't work.

Perhaps a little soft eh?

July 1, 2011 3:56:06 PM

The ants go marching one by one, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching one by one, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching one by one,
The little one stops to suck his thumb
And they all go marching down to the ground
To get out of the rain, BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

The ants go marching two by two, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching two by two, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching two by two,
The little one stops to tie his shoe
And they all go marching down to the ground
To get out of the rain, BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

The ants go marching three by three, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching three by three, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching three by three,
The little one stops to climb a tree
And they all go marching down to the ground
To get out of the rain, BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

The ants go marching four by four, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching four by four, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching four by four,
The little one stops to shut the door
And they all go marching down to the ground
To get out of the rain, BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

The ants go marching five by five, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching five by five, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching five by five,
The little one stops to take a dive
And they all go marching down to the ground
To get out of the rain, BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

The ants go marching six by six, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching six by six, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching six by six,
The little one stops to pick up sticks
And they all go marching down to the ground
To get out of the rain, BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

The ants go marching seven by seven, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching seven by seven, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching seven by seven,
The little one stops to pray to heaven
And they all go marching down to the ground
To get out of the rain, BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

The ants go marching eight by eight, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching eight by eight, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching eight by eight,
The little one stops to shut the gate
And they all go marching down to the ground
To get out of the rain, BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

The ants go marching nine by nine, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching nine by nine, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching nine by nine,
The little one stops to check the time
And they all go marching down to the ground
To get out of the rain, BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

The ants go marching ten by ten, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching ten by ten, hurrah, hurrah
The ants go marching ten by ten,
The little one stops to say "THE END"
And they all go marching down to the ground
To get out of the rain, BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!
July 1, 2011 8:58:22 PM

Since God doesnt exist within what we know, which is everything Hes created, He exists in heaven, which is timeless, cant be broken, doesnt wear out and is more real than here.

Now, since God from a Christians perspective has given us the free will to do as we will, we are also higher than the angels, who do not have this, since theyre in the presence of God.
Having free will then comes down to this, do we do what we were created for, which is pretty well summed up with the golden rule, or, do unto others, that which youd have them do to you, when say you shoot someone, is it that God has no feelings?
When a father sees his son kill someone, is it his fault? Is he remorseless?

If you read the Christian bible, it says therell come a time, when those who can bring fire from the sky, when theres armies from the east numbering 200 million, when Israel exists, when everyones all about partying, and has no time for God, then yes, He will say enough is enough.
When children disdain their parents, when some exist as if they have no love in them at all, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOq5X0JlU3I, when theres one after another anti Christs, James Jones, the temple peoples, Waco etc, when knowledge will increase (most knowledge we use today was created with the onset of electricity) vs covered wagons, sheep and horses.
When theres those saying, spare the oil and the vine, I could go on, but yes He will come, and not like a lamb, but like a lion
July 1, 2011 10:24:00 PM

Quote:
If you read the Christian bible, it says therell come a time, when those who can bring fire from the sky, when theres armies from the east numbering 200 million, when Israel exists, when everyones all about partying, and has no time for God, then yes, He will say enough is enough.


Just when humanity grows up--when we're able to stand on our own two feet intellectually and emotionally--God will end it all? Sounds like the jealous, angry, emotionally unstable Yahweh of the Old Testament.

(I should say I'm going for optimism here. Pesimism would say if humanity ever falls that low we'll destroy ourselves, no God necessary--which is really the end game Christianity has in mind.)
July 1, 2011 10:38:28 PM

No, He comes before we destroy it all.
It centers around Israel, as its attacked, by its neighbors, while the one who protects is taken out of the way.
Could be argued that Israel after 2000 years is just a coicidence, or that Israels neighbors neednt really hate and despise them.
And isnt this the answer as to why He comes back?
When we have so much, are capable of even more, we war, we hate, we destroy, and mostly in His name?
July 1, 2011 11:25:05 PM

Atheist here. I'm damn sure there is no sentient 'higher power' watching over our daily lives. I'm glad that there isn't, how creepy would that be? We are intelligent animals. We have language, science, mathematics, music, awe, wonder, a sense of achievement - when living in a wholesome way. We advance the efforts of those that have lived before us. Standing on the shoulders of our fore-fathers as it were. To help steer us in a righteous way, we invent religions of various kinds. I'm not against religion, but I do see right through it. It is man that created God. It is man that then levers off religion to do the most horrendous horrors in the name of that religion. Sad. Mind you, I admire the teachings of Jesus (love one another as you would love to be loved yourself), he really was a brilliant soul. His Father in Heaven however... - clearly an invention by Jesus for self-promotion. There is a quote that I think is accurate... "Without religion, good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things; but it takes religion to make good people do bad things."
July 1, 2011 11:25:45 PM

I think what JDJ is saying is that we will get to a point where everything we have been searching for has overwhelmed us, we fall on our own understandings and will eventually destroy the earth and its inhabitant.

Now, God won't be mad because we have found out a lot about our universe as much as be saddened that his children have disregarded him. If your parents ave you a lot, would you disown them?
July 1, 2011 11:52:40 PM

I think the creepy part is something alot of people feel.
I like to say you can never get past the Judge, no matter how good it is here.
You can be evil and lucky, you can look good, and still be bad, but no one gets one by the Judge.
If thats creepy, to many, thats just the way it is

This isnt a try at conversion here, nor is it that Im closer or know more etc.
Im happy with where Im at, even with the knowledge God is watching, not in a contradictorial sort of way, but again, to me, its just the way it is.
It isnt weird to see Gods hands in the world around us to me, its very pleasing.
He said those who believe would be free, and so it is
July 2, 2011 12:34:36 AM

^ You warm my heart up with those words. :) 
July 2, 2011 9:41:54 AM

Good read
In the circumstances layed out in your link, I basically allow only 1 skeptical belief
My trouble is, as I read more of this belief, it does fit, tho I remain skeptical about these things
Why would I do that?
Because the truth is that important to me

It completely humbles me when someone takes my words too closely
I tend to back away
Again, why would I do this?

This is my relationship with God, not anyone elses
We are all different, we all have differing needs/desires
Like anything else, if you hand a completed oceed system say, to someone whos never oceed, or is new to being an enthusiast, their experience is a wow factor surely, but only one that you created, not them themselves
In my belief, I dont feel the need to convert anyone, and again, I am somewhat reluctant to share them, as many a time, Ive seen people go astray, not just from what Ive said or told them, but they also become enamored with what others also have to say, while never truly trying it out themselves, and like I said, I do hold onto one unprovable scenario for my beliefs, but all other things have to be challenged, just in order for that one unprovable thing to exist as proofs, or truth
If I dont challenged my belief, then it cant truly hold water
This in itself again, isnt for anyone else but me, its that important to me

Ive found most people have turned away from a belief system mainly because what theyve seen from others is disappointing somewheres down the road, and doesnt fit, or hold water

To adopt what others say as in a life changing epiphany, causes more harm than good
You dont feed a baby solid foods and expect it to live
My belief allows for God to show me the way, in my own time, as needed
I cant even say that this is for everyone, but its worked for me

So, in the end, as Im skeptical about an easy approach going thru or living my belief, so too am I skeptical of those that completely ignore such things, and I have spent some time being this way, and challenging things, both pro and con, as science brings in new wrinkles of what I believe, and many a time, those wrinkles are smoothed out either by a better understanding of my beliefs, or to find that these "facts" are often a set of skepticism created by those with no faith system against a faith system, where often, these "facts" fail, and can be explained away as bad science, since it was driven not by truth, but to simply "prove" something
July 2, 2011 9:55:52 AM

Oh I agree completely, and very rarely get into discussions about beliefs(anymore at least as I have lost too many friends over simple ideologies.) As an athiest, it doesnt really behoove me to try to "convert" someone away from religion/faith/etc. As an athiest I fundamentally disregard any belief in supernatural/metaphysical/spiritual/religious contexts, so it matters not in what you believe. There will simply be nothing afterwards anyways. So there you have it. :) 

Although I do have issues with people failing to be logical and/or reject logic to "support" their belief system, thats just asinine and proves nothing but their ignorance/intolerance/etc. on stuff.

Cheers.
July 2, 2011 10:11:15 AM

Exactly, since it is a relationship, how do you explain that?

Oh sure, some can relate to certain things, but at what level? At what point do differing paths change such understandings, and what merit it deserve in each of us?

If you wanna play the blues, you hafta pay your dues heheh
July 2, 2011 11:45:18 AM

mrface said:
Dont get sucked into intellectual black holes....

http://www.theatheistconservative.com/2011/06/18/believ...

pretty good article on the subject; feel free to discuss.


TOP QUOTE mrface ... brilliant:


Why does it matter if we believe absurd things?

It can cause no great harm. …

He could not be more wrong. It can, it has, and it does. The harm that the absurd beliefs of religious faiths have done to humanity is so vast and terrible as to be beyond calculation. To pick only the most obvious examples: consider the long darkness Christianity brought down on Europe after it became the state religion of the Roman empire; the millenia of religious wars; the relentless persecutions by the Inquisition and the equally cruel heresy-sniffing of the Protestant sects; the suppression of scientific discovery by the Catholic Church; the savage advances of Islam, for the most part successful, from the time of its inception to the present.

Bullshit beliefs called religion have soaked the earth with human blood.

July 2, 2011 12:04:44 PM

Id argue that a dying empire used it for its political means, which is not what its about.
So, seperating man from God in this, again, it was mans free will that did the pooch
Our forwefathers knew this, and I laugh when some make silly claims as to its not being carried in every thought of its conception.
Church and state are to be seperated simply because it stymies the real potential towards a walk with God in your personal life, as again, our forefathers knew
July 2, 2011 12:34:09 PM

IMO, it comes down to humans being sentient beings. We are free to do/believe what we want to believe (or disbelieve). However, there are moral complications with that. IE, be yourself as long as you dont adversely affect someone elses belief system, health, belongings, etc.

There should be no issue with one bringing there views up to someone as long as you dont negatively pressure them into a situation that could be harmful to their physical health, mental health,etc. That is morally wrong. We as concious, free thinking beings should be able to have certain dialogues without the need of spewing venom, verbally attacking, and physical attacking someone else. Unfortunately from my experience, most religions promote this type of thing. I honestly believe that being a religious person is a good quality but being a fundamentalist is a negative trait. (See: Westboro Baptist church, Islamist radicals, Christian crusades et. al.)

To answer your question it IS exactly relationship wise. If you feel the need to have a relationship with a creator/greater being and it improves you as a person and decreases your negative traits(utilitarianism, if you will) GO FOR IT! And if you feel prudent to suggest to someone the same path, go for it. However, dont be pushy because that is not fair. Conversely, if you are comfortable and a generally moral person without the need for a higher power, then go for it as well(under the same conditions of course)

July 2, 2011 12:40:12 PM

So true
My conviction then is truly not in my hands but His, because we all know any father loves his children, and I cant make that leap of discovery for someone else
July 2, 2011 4:31:29 PM

The fundamental question of creation:

Was rey with God videotaping it all?

Stay tuned for the YouTube premier.



We will find out how we got here: By either a total system collapse of the universe, or the return of Christ himself.


!