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Amd doubters.

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August 14, 2003 10:43:31 AM

this mite be a bit early, but it seems like everyones has changed their oppion on how the a64 will perform.
i remmeber alot of you saying amd's too late. the clocks too low. amd will never catch up. and prescott is just gonna barry amd more. 64bit cpu will perform not so good in 32 bit.amd playing catch up. "Its Too Late"(many have chanted) for Amd yadda yadda yadda.

Intel will definently have competition from AMD, maybe more then it will bargain for.

Alot of these doubters really want amd to fail dont they, why do i see more people guessing how sucky its gonna be, while i barely see anyone guessing how good it mite be?

More about : amd doubters

August 14, 2003 11:38:55 AM

well of course its all speculation


we will never know until the chips and better chipsets for them are released. we just like to talk about how things "seem" now.. we know things can always change

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August 14, 2003 12:38:07 PM

I don't want AMD to fail, but there has to be a concrete/rational reason for choosing AMD over Intel.

"Some mice have two buttons. Macintosh has one. So it's extremely difficult to push the wrong button." - Apple ad. circa 1984.
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August 14, 2003 12:40:38 PM

Quote:
Alot of these doubters really want amd to fail dont they, why do i see more people guessing how sucky its gonna be, while i barely see anyone guessing how good it mite be?

Well...
<b>a)</b>I <i>am</i> one of 'these doubters'.. and I <i>really</i> don't want AMD to fail..
<b>b)</b>A64 is basically the same as Opteron - <i>that</i> is why people are guessing how sucky it will be. The only real unknown ATM is prescott, and Intel are hardly going to release something slower than current P4s - which can compete with Opteron anyway.... So it doesn't look good for AMD.

I do hope I'm wrong, but I don't see AMD being a player in the high-end market for a good long while...

---
The end is nigh.. (For this post at least) :smile:
August 14, 2003 12:44:29 PM

Something can't suck and be good at the same time. It's one or the other. I think the overall opinion, which is based on the Opteron, early benchmarks, and AMD's own roadmap is that Hammer is a dissappoinment if nothing else. I've never owned Intel stuff, but my next system will probably be a Pentium.

Get your own sig!!! :tongue:
August 14, 2003 12:58:15 PM

No offense, but your logic ... isn't.

Just because someone makes educated speculation based on facts does not mean that they want anyone to fail.

For example: If I see the stock market taking a nose dive for five days straight, it's a pretty safe speculation to make that it'll dive on the sixth day too. I wouldn't make such a speculation because I <i>want</i> it to happen, but because that's simply the best educated guess.

Now back to AMD. No, we haven't seen actual A64 benchmarks yet. However, we <i>have</i> seen Opteron benchmarks. Opteron, being the <i>high end</i> and <i>professional</i> chip from the same basic core as the A64, should be performing the same <i>or better</i> than A64. It would be <i>highly</i> unlikely that the A64 would perform better than it's Opteron counterpart. (Especially when we know for a fact that in this case the A64 will primarly come in a single-channel memory version.)

So we've <i>seen</i> how a chip that is <i>better</i> than the A64 performs compared to a <i>Northwood</i>. Based on that, it's an obvious speculation to make that the absolute best that the A64 can do is to match the Opteron. And since Intel hasn't yet released a P4 revision that is slower than the previous models, it's also pretty safe speculation that Scotty is going to outperform Northy.

Hence the many people speculating that Scotty will outperform A64.

It has nothing to do with anyone's desire to see AMD fail. Most don't want that to happen. What it <i>does</i> have to do with is simple logic. It's just an educated observation.

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August 14, 2003 1:16:00 PM

looking at amd from a buisness perspective, how long can AMD last? AMD has never posted a profit, they lose money. Unless they manage to increase their earnings and make money, their eps is -4.05 they will eventually fail.
I don't mean to sound like I want this to happen, having competition forces intel to lower prices and put out new and better products, but AMD needs to do somthing fast to stay in the market. I just don't see it being the A64
August 14, 2003 1:23:44 PM

If they do go down, chances are excellent that someone will buy them, so it's likely they'll survive in one form or another.

---
The end is nigh.. (For this post at least) :smile:
August 14, 2003 1:52:25 PM

Besides, Intel is certainly taking their sweet time offering upgrades lately. Why? Because AMD <i>isn't</i> competing with them anymore. AMD might have been good for competition in the past, but what are they doing for it <i>now</i>?

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August 14, 2003 2:08:12 PM

thee is one factor that people here tend 2 forget

clock speed

the hammer ramps like a banshee with more MHZ.... 200 extra MHZ does alot more for AMD than it does INTEL.. if the A64 lands at 2.4 GHZ Intel will have a hard time competing ... even with Prescott.

that bein said and with all the issues INTEL is having with .09 process.... using the same logic everyone in this thread is using... will prescott even be released any time soon?
August 14, 2003 2:10:16 PM

you did see the review of the 2.2 ghz opteron... it beat the p4 3.2 soundly.

a 2.4 ghz A64 will do what? not compete? that makes no sense
August 14, 2003 2:12:17 PM

<<AMD might have been good for competition in the past, but what are they doing for it now?
>>>

well a 2.2 GHZ Hammer beats the p4 3.2 ghz soundly

a 2.4 GHZ HAmmer would do what?

prescott will not be released this year....

window for amd
August 14, 2003 2:13:30 PM

again... noone knows what speed the a64 will be released at... if its 2.2 ghzz or higher..INTEL is in trouble
August 14, 2003 2:39:16 PM

Quote:
thee is one factor that people here tend 2 forget

clock speed

the hammer ramps like a banshee with more MHZ.... 200 extra MHZ does alot more for AMD than it does INTEL.. if the A64 lands at 2.4 GHZ Intel will have a hard time competing ... even with Prescott.

Except that there is no such thing as a 2.4GHz A64. If Opteron isn't even officially released at this speed yet then what makes you think that A64 will be? We could speculate about CPU overclocking all day, but in the end that has nothing to do with any of this.

Quote:
that bein said and with all the issues INTEL is having with .09 process.... using the same logic everyone in this thread is using... will prescott even be released any time soon?

Intel themselves have said yes. And even at 100W, the first Scotties are not only well within the required specs of Scotty mobos, but they're even still within specs of a lot of currently available Canterwood and Springdale mobos. They're also within specs of currently available heatsinks and within specs of even the Intel retail HSF. (And there are <i>plenty</i> of better HSFs than the Intel retail.)

There is absolutely no reason why Scotty would be delayed. And even <i>if</i> it was (which it won't be) the P4 3.2GHz still kicks the pants off of both the AXP3200 and the Opteron 144. So Scotty isn't even needed for A64's initial launch to be sad.

Quote:
you did see the review of the 2.2 ghz opteron... it beat the p4 3.2 soundly.

a 2.4 ghz A64 will do what? not compete? that makes no sense

How nice of you to mention completely nonexisting products. Yes, let us bring up overclocks while we're at it because that just makes so much sense. So while you're at it, why not compare to a 3.6GHz Northwood?

<pre><b><font color=red>*** BattleTech - The Crescent Hawks Inception ***</b>
Pilot twenty-ton behemoth robots to save your planet from a
Kuritian invasion force. Now available on the C=64!</font color=red></pre><p>
August 14, 2003 3:36:24 PM

I read about half of your post before I became irritated by the poor grammar and spelling. Also, a little punctuation would make it easier to read.
August 14, 2003 3:40:07 PM

Quote:
How nice of you to mention completely nonexisting products. Yes, let us bring up overclocks while we're at it because that just makes so much sense. So while you're at it, why not compare to a 3.6GHz Northwood?

Now that we're on the realm of nonexisting products, just remember that Scotty is supposed to have 15-20% higher IPC than NW... That means that the 3.4Ghz Scotty will offer the performance equivalent of a <b>4Ghz</b> Northwood...

:evil:  <font color=red><b>M</b></font color=red>ephistopheles
August 14, 2003 8:32:43 PM

Quote:

No offense, but your logic ... isn't.

Just because someone makes educated speculation based on facts does not mean that they want anyone to fail.

For example: If I see the stock market taking a nose dive for five days straight, it's a pretty safe speculation to make that it'll dive on the sixth day too. I wouldn't make such a speculation because I want it to happen, but because that's simply the best educated guess.

Now back to AMD. No, we haven't seen actual A64 benchmarks yet. However, we have seen Opteron benchmarks. Opteron, being the high end and professional chip from the same basic core as the A64, should be performing the same or better than A64. It would be highly unlikely that the A64 would perform better than it's Opteron counterpart. <b>(Especially when we know for a fact that in this case the A64 will primarly come in a single-channel memory version.)</b>

So we've seen how a chip that is better than the A64 performs compared to a Northwood. Based on that, it's an obvious speculation to make that the absolute best that the A64 can do is to match the Opteron. And since Intel hasn't yet released a P4 revision that is slower than the previous models, it's also pretty safe speculation that Scotty is going to outperform Northy.

Hence the many people speculating that Scotty will outperform A64.

It has nothing to do with anyone's desire to see AMD fail. Most don't want that to happen. What it does have to do with is simple logic. It's just an educated observation.

the 940pin A64 and the 939pin A64 will have dual channel. only the 754pin A64 won't have dual channel.
August 14, 2003 9:14:39 PM

"A64 is basically the same as Opteron - that is why people are guessing how sucky it will be"

should be;

"A64 is basically the same as Opteron - that is why people are guessing how good it will be" - 2.2ghz opteron nailed a 3.2ghz P4.

"Intel are hardly going to release something slower than current P4s " Ha Ha Ha Ha, remember first P4s? that was so disappointing, but that was because the pipeline was lengthened so much, but i suppose prescott wont have longer pipeline - hold on a second it WILL have a longer pipeline.

having said that prescott will obviously be very fast - just pointing the irony out.

"keyboard error or no keyboard present, press F1 to continue or DEL to enter setup" spot the deliberate mistake
August 14, 2003 9:57:11 PM

No AMD processors will sitll beat an Intel in media encoding and 3d modelling, where mhz matters most.
August 14, 2003 10:29:26 PM

Quote:

No offense, but your logic ... isn't.

Just because someone makes <b>educated speculation</b> based on facts does not mean that they want anyone to fail.

To me, "educated speculation" is somewhat contradictory.

In my view, educated, or education--referring to a university, is the teaching of facts that have been studied and proven through research of primary sources, <i>not</i> secondary sources.

For the most part, the information speculated on in these forums comes from <b>secondary media sources</b>.

Keep in mind that if you consider Intel or AMD a primary source, they are still a company in a capilistic scheme. Making their product "hype" bigger by releasing non-finalized specifications, translates into marketing or an attempt to sell their product.

So in your own words:

Quote:

No offense, but your logic ... isn't.

Perhaps if you replaced "educated speculation" with "educated guess" you would be more correct.
August 14, 2003 11:03:57 PM

So besides on AMD's secondary PR site, where did the 2.2 nail the P4? Just curious...

I'm just your average habitual smiler =D
August 14, 2003 11:12:05 PM

i was referring to the amdzone article, which i assume is reasonably accurate because
1) Athlon XP is also nailed by the opteron and the P4
2) If these results were exagerated amdzone would instantly become the laughing stock of the internet community, and soon it will be obvious if they were exagerated.

anyway we'll find out soon enough

"keyboard error or no keyboard present, press F1 to continue or DEL to enter setup" spot the deliberate mistake
August 14, 2003 11:35:17 PM

Actually grub... there is one thing that can suck and be good at the same time.

Your Girl Friends mouth :evil: 

<b>Regards,
Mr no integrity coward.</b>
August 14, 2003 11:38:06 PM

Quote:
the 940pin A64 and the 939pin A64 will have dual channel. only the 754pin A64 won't have dual channel.

And the Winner is A64 Dual Channel. But you seem to be forgetting that these Dual Channel products will not be shipping till end of the year or beginning of next year. And everyone probably agrees that A64 Single Channel is no match for P4C.

And by the time the Dual Channel will be available we will see Prescott, which will give a real challenge to A64 Dual Channel.

KG

"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity." - Sarah Chambers
August 14, 2003 11:38:07 PM

Question: Will the A64 come with DC memory or not?


<b>Regards,
Mr no integrity coward.</b>
August 14, 2003 11:44:54 PM

if you mean does it have a DC memory controller then; 7xx pin variety will not, 940/939 pin versions will (but only ecc memory i think)

"keyboard error or no keyboard present, press F1 to continue or DEL to enter setup" spot the deliberate mistake
August 15, 2003 1:12:47 AM

<< 940/939 pin versions will (but only ecc memory i think)>>

no matter how many times this is explained to you.. u seem still forget

the 939 opteron will use non ECC ram the 940 will use ecc ram or one non ecc ram per bank
August 15, 2003 2:18:52 AM

4 Ghz Northwood I want one of those. Where can I buy one? Spain?
August 15, 2003 2:29:26 AM

Quote:
that was so disappointing, but that was because the pipeline was lengthened so much,

1)Again as it has been many times in the past been stated, a longer pipeline DOES NOT DIRECTLY equate into lower IPC.
2) Prescott is an evolution over the P7. Wilamette is a completely new core over the P6 and carries little to NO similar components inside.
3) It had horrible IPC because Intel released it 2 years prematurely, apparently, for competition's sake. They removed so many things and many speculate Prescott is the real P4. But I don't care about that anymore, my point just being that this is not a valid comparison, if you were making one.
A core evolution HAS to be better performing, no matter what. Adding cache can't reduce performance now can it?

Quote:
hold on a second it WILL have a longer pipeline.

Now where did you pick this one out from?

1)Extending the pipeline requires a very deep redesign to accomodate the changes, whatever they were.
2)In doing so they are changing cores, from P7 to P8, that is not P4's job. Nehalem will.
3)There isn't enough time to even add stages since Prescott was announced.

Again where did you pick this claim from?!

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August 15, 2003 3:50:28 AM

Quote:

the hammer ramps like a banshee with more MHZ.... 200 extra MHZ does alot more for AMD than it does INTEL.. if the A64 lands at 2.4 GHZ Intel will have a hard time competing ... even with Prescott.

Yes, but how long will it be able to sustain this rate of increase?

As I understand it, lengthinging the pipeline was necessary to make possible more clockspeed jumps. Hammer's pipeline was lengthened, but not by very much. I suspect this will allow it to scale clockspeed for a while, but it will not be enough to sustain it for very long. Because Intel's Netburst architecture has such a long pipeline, I see it as a more promising solution for the long term.

<font color=white>---</font color=white>
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August 15, 2003 4:32:50 AM

A64 using the Prescott core, AMD's best hope is for Intel to continue having problems with the 90nm process. Otherwise, their second best hope is to pull a rabbit from their hat, ie surprise us with an undisclosed enhancement.

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August 15, 2003 5:06:37 AM

It's funny how now, within a month from the release, where you simply CANNOT anymore have any enhancements included due to silicon finalizing and testing time, news about A64 reveal more than expected, i.e. clock speeds and nomenclature and versions.
Could AMD have really revealed only low specs and left out the real deal hidden?

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August 15, 2003 5:08:17 AM

According to imgod2u, those two extra stages are not divided stages from the main 10, but some "packing" stages based on some mini core advancement included in K8. So, while it has 2 new stages, they are NEW, not divided, and thus, clock speed headroom increase is to not be expected.

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Site has now even more sexy members, for your pleasure.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 08/15/03 01:08 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
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August 15, 2003 7:25:51 AM

Well, it would be good to keep some secrets in order to make the competition more laxed!

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August 15, 2003 8:42:42 AM

Quote:

And the Winner is A64 Dual Channel. But you seem to be forgetting that these Dual Channel products will not be shipping till end of the year or beginning of next year. And everyone probably agrees that A64 Single Channel is no match for P4C.

And by the time the Dual Channel will be available we will see Prescott, which will give a real challenge to A64 Dual Channel.

KG

The A64 754pin and 940pin <b>will both</b> launch september 23rd.
August 15, 2003 10:39:08 AM

Even in single channel mode, the onboard ram controller is a force to be reckoned with.
While the Opteron did not whip the P4's butt, it did quite well. Adding 4 to 6 hundred megahertz will make a difference. Think of it this way, add SSE2 to an XP3200. Of course the SSE2 is tied to throughput so it will not be as big a boost as the P4 gets but.. Nor is this the only change. As for those who say that AMD will never catch up in multi-media encoding, well that was only true in certain SSE2 relaint progs, and guess what the A64 has! At the end of Sept the standing meal around here will be crow. There will of course be some benchmarks from Bapco that will see the world through different colored glasses, but we know. Dont sweat it, sit back and watch, after all we all are fools at times. ( As well I might be right now)
August 15, 2003 1:16:58 PM

Quote:
To me, "educated speculation" is somewhat contradictory.

That's nice. I'd love for you to logically explain just how though. To <i>me</i> it's no different than saying "educated guess" which is basically how all scientific advancement works.

Well, okay, it is slightly different in that <i>speculation</i> implies conversation based on, where <i>guess</i> implies involvement of as little as (but not limited to) just one person. I still don't see how you could possibly consider that contradictory. If making educated guesses based on facts and data and then talking about them (i.e. <i>speculation</i>) is contradictory to you then I'd hate to think of how you could possibly make any decisions at all about the future.

Quote:
In my view, educated, or education--referring to a university, is the teaching of facts that have been studied and proven through research of primary sources, not secondary sources.

What's this primary and secondary sources nonsense and what does it have to do with the price of tea in China? Take raw benchmark data provided by <i>several</i> independant review sites (to account for biasing) and whitepapers provided by manufacturers (which are not filled with the typical hyped marketing fluff) and you have pretty good data. I dare say that the only way to get better data would be to collect it yourself, which is no easy task when we're talking about hardware as expensive as this.

Quote:
Perhaps if you replaced "educated speculation" with "educated guess" you would be more correct.

Shall I get out a theraurus so that we can play silly word games all day long? The fact that you even have to resort to such a trivial argument speaks volumes. However as already stated above, the word 'speculation' was chosen over the word 'guess' for a reason. And that reason is conversation. We are conversing. Hence it is educated <i>speculation</i> because it is <i>conversation</i> based upon educated <i>guesses</i>.

Bah. If you're going to argue logic at least try to do it logically.

<pre><b><font color=red>*** BattleTech - The Crescent Hawks Inception ***</b>
Pilot twenty-ton behemoth robots to save your planet from a
Kuritian invasion force. Now available on the C=64!</font color=red></pre><p>
August 15, 2003 1:18:10 PM

*yawn*

Shadus
August 15, 2003 1:24:44 PM

Quote:
the 940pin A64 and the 939pin A64 will have dual channel. only the 754pin A64 won't have dual channel.

And it's the 754 pin version that's targetted at the <i>majority</i> of A64 customers. Anyone looking for a 64-bit desktop is going to get that version.

The 939/940 version is aimed squarely at low-end Opteron replacement. It's nothing more than an equivalent to Intel's Xeon line instead of comparing to their P4s. <i>Most</i> people won't buy them because <i>most</i> people won't want to spend the extra on the the chip, the motherboard to support it, and the ECC RAM.

<pre><b><font color=red>*** BattleTech - The Crescent Hawks Inception ***</b>
Pilot twenty-ton behemoth robots to save your planet from a
Kuritian invasion force. Now available on the C=64!</font color=red></pre><p>
August 15, 2003 1:32:39 PM

Quote:
i was referring to the amdzone article, which i assume is reasonably accurate

No offense, but doesn't that statement at some point strike you as 'unlikely to be true'? Look at the name of the site: <b>AMD</b>Zone. That hardly instills confidence of objectivity, does it?

Oh sure, it puts the AXP3200 in a bad light. The truth is though that the AXP3200 puts <i>itself</i> in a bad light. It'd be very difficult to put that chip in a <i>good</i> light.

Now I could easily be wrong. I'm not saying that AMDZone isn't fair because frankly, I don't care enough to research that. I'm just saying that it <i>sounds</i> rather unlikely to me. I mean the name itself just sounds biased.

P.S. If you want an example of AMD fanboyism go to <A HREF="http://www.amdmb.com" target="_new">www.amdmb.com&lt;/A> and you'll see the typical 'impartiality' of sites with AMD in their name.

<pre><b><font color=red>*** BattleTech - The Crescent Hawks Inception ***</b>
Pilot twenty-ton behemoth robots to save your planet from a
Kuritian invasion force. Now available on the C=64!</font color=red></pre><p>
August 15, 2003 1:42:47 PM

Quote:
Now that we're on the realm of nonexisting products, just remember that Scotty is supposed to have 15-20% higher IPC than NW... That means that the 3.4Ghz Scotty will offer the performance equivalent of a <b>4Ghz</b> Northwood...

I would say that I'll believe it when I see it, because that sounds awfully high even to me. I <i>would</i> say that ... <i>if</i> I hadn't already read <A HREF="http://www.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20030812" target="_new">THG's 1GHz FSB article</A> and seen just what raising the FSB does for a Northwood.

A whole whopping 50MHz difference (but 200MHz FSB) over a stock 3.2GHz NorthwoodC and it's completely slaughtering the NWCs. So even if Scotty was <i>just</i> a NWC with a 4x250MHz FSB it'd perform like a champ compared to a Northy. And we all know that the extre cache is going to make a difference too. And then there's SSE3 and a number of other little tweaks...

<pre><b><font color=red>*** BattleTech - The Crescent Hawks Inception ***</b>
Pilot twenty-ton behemoth robots to save your planet from a
Kuritian invasion force. Now available on the C=64!</font color=red></pre><p>
August 15, 2003 1:46:33 PM

Quote:
Adding cache can't reduce performance now can it?

Err ... well ... don't go looking at the new Xeon benchmarks then. **ROFL** Appearantly in <i>rare</i> cases (but still actually happening) adding that L3 cache really <i>did</i> reduce performance.

<pre><b><font color=red>*** BattleTech - The Crescent Hawks Inception ***</b>
Pilot twenty-ton behemoth robots to save your planet from a
Kuritian invasion force. Now available on the C=64!</font color=red></pre><p>
August 15, 2003 1:50:40 PM

Quote:
As for those who say that AMD will never catch up in multi-media encoding, well that was only true in certain SSE2 relaint progs, and guess what the A64 has! At the end of Sept the standing meal around here will be crow.

Ha ha. That's funny.

Would you like garlic butter with your crow? Or perhaps a little ketchup? You <i>have</i> read reviews of just exactly how well Opteron handles SSE2 specifically, no?

<pre><b><font color=red>*** BattleTech - The Crescent Hawks Inception ***</b>
Pilot twenty-ton behemoth robots to save your planet from a
Kuritian invasion force. Now available on the C=64!</font color=red></pre><p>
August 15, 2003 2:37:14 PM

Exactly my point (about the AMDZone).

I think ExtremeTech's article was much better, although they did not overclock the opteron to 2.2 (they still crippled the P4 RAM, which really is starting to seem fishy).

True, we don't know if AMDZone is officially AMD's spin-off PR site. But a site with AMD's color scheme that has an article on many AMD products and no articles about Intel's chips (unless they are included as benchmarks against the best new AMD chip)...well seems a tad bit biased. Don't you think? :) 

If I made a site that explored many many aspects of Nvidia and then I mentioned ATI only to say that they basically sucked, you'd think i was biased then, right? Mmmk...*logical progression follows*

I'm just your average habitual smiler =D
August 15, 2003 3:50:25 PM

I'm definately with you, wolverinero79. I'm just too lazy to prove it.

:o 

**ROFL**

<pre><b><font color=red>*** BattleTech - The Crescent Hawks Inception ***</b>
Pilot twenty-ton behemoth robots to save your planet from a
Kuritian invasion force. Now available on the C=64!</font color=red></pre><p>
August 15, 2003 7:53:43 PM

Quote:
And it's the 754 pin version that's targetted at the majority of A64 customers. Anyone looking for a 64-bit desktop is going to get that version.

The 939/940 version is aimed squarely at low-end Opteron replacement. It's nothing more than an equivalent to Intel's Xeon line instead of comparing to their P4s. Most people won't buy them because most people won't want to spend the extra on the the chip, the motherboard to support it, and the ECC RAM.

The 939pin A64 will not use ecc ram.

And for the creditibility of benchmarks, all opteron benchmarks have been good, and they have come from many different sources.

the majority of people don't have a 650$ 3.2c in their systems, does it mean it doesn't exist? does it mean its not the leader right now? pretty moot point.


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by amdchooser1 on 08/15/03 04:27 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
August 15, 2003 8:11:51 PM

Heheh, well, considering L3 adds latency (typically and logically slower than L2) and that 1MB DOES make searching for cached data even longer, I wouldn't be surprised if some apps are not optimized to take advantage of extra cache space.

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August 16, 2003 2:39:12 AM

The surprise will be when amd releases A 64 on time.
August 16, 2003 7:50:40 AM

AMDZONE Chris's benchmarks have never been biased? He is very well respected.

if your gonna make that charge... u betta have some proof to back it up
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