Best $200 speakers

Hey all!!

Looking to buy some new PC speakers. I want a high quality sound and preferably a small scale set up. I dont really care if its either 2:1 or :1, just want the best quality for $200. It is my bedroom so it is a small place to be in.

Any ideas?
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  1. Anyone got any clue?
  2. i like them but any chance there is something good on the market with a subwoofer?
  3. the klipsch promedia 2.1 system has proven to take the abuse i gave it.
    the speakers dont really sound very good.

    there is like 100 choices, and i dont see how anybody would know which one is best.
    even a speaker designer wouldnt know unless they asked the speaker designer of all the products.. otherwise they would have to take each one apart and have a look themselves.

    anyways.. the klipsch 2.1 isnt really a small scale setup.
    they dont take up a whole lot of room if you can hide the sub.. but they get really loud and dont sound very good.
    maybe you should be looking for something that doesnt get as loud, and instead they sound much better.

    it just goes to show, these speakers have over a thousand 5 star reviews and they sound like junk.
    most of the PC speakers sound even worse unless you start looking at the 'studio monitors'
  4. Thanks anywaypasible! I would prefer quality over loudness. I was looking at
    Creative Gigaworks T3 2.1 System. Any good?
  5. i dont know what they sound like.

    most of the reviews are saying things like 'these are a noticeable improvement'
    if you get them and they arent any good, i can only imagine what speakers those people had before getting these.

    what i really wonder is, are those single speakers the type where you have to keep the volume down and listen closely for the improvement?
    because you shouldnt have to listen closely for an improvement.

    pretty mind-boggling how i can grab a pair of speakers for $30 that sound better than 90% of the easy to find consumer stuff.

    i would say hunt down a store and give them a listen.
    if you dont notice an improvement right away, then they arent worth the money.
    and for $200 .. it might be best to go to the store for a listen, despite the cost of traveling.
    but, of course, with gas prices high.. it might cost $40 to get there and back.
    i would probably do it for $20 - $25 round trip to prevent myself from buying something and being unhappy with it.

    i still say try to build your own speakers by buying the speakers seperately.
    you wont get it all in that price range.

    for high quality sound, you would probably spend about $100 per speaker channel.
    and that is without the wood to build the box or the amplifier to power them.
    but it has been like that since the 1990's
    the car audio people would be able to tell you, if you want better sound quality.. you gotta grab the speakers seperately.
    just about anything that comes in a box is going to either sound really bad or have a really high inflated price.
  6. i bought the klipsch promedia 2.1 set and i had it running for about a week.

    as far as sound quality.. it wasnt the best i've heard, but it wasn't the worst by far either. the biggest negative was that the subwoofer completely overpowers the satelite speakers, in order to have normal sound you have to turn the sub down to 10-15%. i cranked them up "loud" and this is what i noticed above all else. in terms of quality loss unless you turned them up insanely loud i didnt hear a whole lot of distortion.

    i ended up returning them and going with home theatre speakers also made by klipsch (quintet IV) and a klipsch subwoofer which are much better matched. granted my current speakers and sub cost about 6x what the promedia cost me but for what i wanted to use the system for it was the option i chose.

    i've always had great luck with logitech speakers. i used to own one of their 5.1 systems from a few years ago that cost me about $150 and it sounded great (well it still does!). we got a relative the $60 2.1 system available and for the price it sounds good as well.

    @anywaypasible, not everyone is overly critical when reviewing items. i'm sure those 1000 people who totaled up a 5.0 start review were all satisfied. its a $100-150 dollar setup, they aren't expecting "the best of the best". granted i'd probably only rate them at about a 3.5 to 4.0, but the speakers were built very well and for the price sounded decent. for the same price as those you'd get speakers that were made like cheap plastic boxes from other brands, its one of the huge differences in manufacturing i noticed when i tried them out. if i had to rate my current home theater klipsh speakers, absolutely a 5.0 perfect. i just think they should have matched the 2.1 promedia system a little better and it would have been around the same for the price range.
  7. additon...
    (sorry cant edit with this ie version)

    i agree anywaypasible, if you have the time, know how, and you do the research building your own speakers can be rewarding, however price is often an issue. also factor in that not everyone has the equipment to furnish wood cabinets.

    while i agree most boxed sets carry an inflated price, this does not mean that they are all bad. they can be well worth the money. you just have to watch what you buy (and remember to compare apples to apples in terms of total costs).

    going to the store to listen to models is a great idea. it is the only true way to judge what the speakers sound like firsthand. after all, what i prefer in a speaker system most likely differs from what you like. i ended up going to the store about 4x when picking out my current speakers. at around $500 for just the 5.0 speakers i had to be sure of what i wanted! subwoofer, receiver, and cables extra.. you're going to own a system for years so might as well be happy with your decisions.
  8. i think the reason people say 'it wasnt the worst by far'
    is mainly because the subwoofer is so dang loud.
    the midranges themselves arent grainy like cardboard, but they are still ash like paper (and a couple sheets of paper at that)

    if they removed the subwoofer, they would realize how close to the bottom end of audio quality those speakers really should be.
    i gotta thank klipsch for building a set of speakers that doesnt break in 5 years.

    i have a pair of infinity reference midranges from the 1990's (for car audio)
    they sound better than those klipsch midranges.
    yes, they have a bit more ash sound to them.. but they pour out details better.

    the problem with the midranges is, the details simply never existed to be heard at all.
    the main sounds were trimmed even.
    those speakers were never going to play transients by far.
    the harmonic distortion was low enough to give an example of high signal to noise ratio, but high enough to keep the main vocals dirty.

    the subwoofer had no detail whatsoever.
    just because the subwoofer could jump from lows to highs and to the middle bass frequencys.. that doesnt mean the subwoofer has a power of quality.
    you couldnt hear anything at all but the massive amount of mud that comes from ejecting soundwaves faster than they can propogate.
    i think the box was tuned for 60hz and that means 30hz was blasted out halfway through its cycle.
    and all that means is, the air from the port has the full ability to be used with sound processing algorithms that rely on four walls.
    because if the entire wave propogates in the box, then there is no chance for the wave to affect the reflections off the walls.
    for that, they did it correctly.
    but the subwoofer itself was nothing more than a fan/blower.
    you'll get some enhanced details by using the reflections off the walls to propogate a unified sound.. but the details within that architecture are empty.
    meaning, if the room is supposed to fill up with a 3d sound of thunder.. the box size to port ratio allows it.
    but that doesnt mean all of the turbulance from the port is going to be dispersed widely into the room.
    in fact.. one could only hope to try and get the speaker cone and the soundwaves from the port to touch and point the corner towards the listening position for a dipole output.

    every time i go to the store to buy something, it most often feels like the product is a toy version of the real thing.

    maybe the speakers sound better with the room optimizations i have suggested.. i havent tried it.
    but i am thinking those speakers need to be the bare minimum of quality available so we can phase out the 'ought to be free' junk and start releasing some real audiophile results in peoples homes.
    if you imagine those klipsch midranges and compare them to a speaker that can confuse the brain from reality.. there are as many selective options between them as the speaker designers care to create.

    and then again, who am i to judge those klipsch midranges?
    i didnt try some 192khz or higher sample rates on the speakers to see if they improved.
    but the cardboard sounds need to be completely eliminated, and the paper is going to be mixed with audiophile quality to give a budget-minded selection.
    the rest will be a slope of fidelity until the 2nd wave hits the market bringing us further again.
    since i have heard the seperation of the speakers.. that can only grow and be a selling point.
    maybe less paper sound, maybe more seperation/depth.. and of course transients plus or minus.

    the audio industry is exhausting and downright torture.
    the $300 - $500 pairs of speakers are such a joke that people would be better off spending that extra money on a better couch.
    or some silverware that doesnt snap in half in 6 months.

    i think it is scary as hell that the economy treats people with such disembarkment.
    and even more scary that the people dont care much to do anything about it.. as if they could.
    since they control the price categories and the quality that goes into those price categories.
    people will walk into a store and buy some speakers because the speakers look good to their eyeballs.
    i just cant suggest being around them people is going to be fun or healthy.

    how many decades do we need to see people in the 'home of the brave' where people came to this land to invent things.. just when are they going to stop asking for the truth about how much people care?
    because they dont have much concern when there is always somebody else who does.

    i just dont have the energy to say something significant about it, because people go into the store with money in their pocket and stand around like a wild animal grunting things like 'ooh ooh.. what are you going to give me?'
    even when they ask questions and say what they want, you can hear it in their requests - all the grunting.
    it isnt all confusion, it is the lack of answers yes.. but also the lack of research, mixed in with their 'new found' morals.

    i guess that would make me a really good sales person.. because i would have no problem shoving my selection down their throat.
    if they dont want what i suggest, i will let them pick whatever they want.. only answering stupid questions like 'does this have HDMI inputs?' because they would rather cry on my shoulder than read the info next to the price tag (or spin the television around themselves and look).

    isnt that so 1940's and 1950's that a person walks into a store and expects the sales person to teach them all of the right from wrong answers about the technology they are buying.
    its like they are saying.. more pixels = more details .. and such and such type of phospher is going to be the best in terms of color accuracy.
    basically drilling the salesperson down as if they were a designer of televisions themselves.

    they walk in looking to leave with a bachelor's degree in the technology they are looking to purchase.
    as if the salesperson is going to teach them everything except how to build one themselves (meaning the capacitors and resistors and such)

    yes, i feel that makes a really good sales person.
    and yes, i feel that a person who knows should be able to make the selection for the buyer.
    that is the 'hospitality' learned from that era.

    nowadays the pimple faced teenagers dont know any more than the person asking the questions.
    if you run into somebody who is actually smart.. the person is probably associated with the local government and doing psychology work.

    see.. in the 1980's people learned that they needed to get ahold of an electronics repair person to get all of those 'secret pieces of information' to get a real suggestion about what they should buy.
    then they went and removed all of that information so nobody could access it in a book or on the internet.
    the information has been dripped out like a baby medicine feeder to help ensure people dont lose faith in the products.
    it keeps all walks of life continuing to buy the electronics.
    but the details are starting to pour more and more into the pieces on the circuit board.
    an LCD television is simple.
    its a liquid crystal panel with a light behind it.
    each pixel changes color because of the electricity sent to it.
    if the liquid doesnt have all of the chemicals.. it wont produce all of the colors.
    and if the control board cant send all of the different voltages needed.. then the colors wont show up even if the LCD panel can produce the colors.

    hardware 'tweakers' or 'modifiers' will learn that there is some help that can be done to let the control board send voltages more sensitively.
    but they will also realize that they can only go so far before one of two things happen:
    1. the control board simply doesnt even begin to try to output a voltage for the shade of color
    2. the voltages are now so totally different that greens are turning red, and the firmware needs to be programmed custom to make sense of all the new voltage capabilities.

    not everybody is overly critical.. that is true.
    and because of that, we have had to force things off the shelves and put new things on the shelves to get the consumers to wake up and witness something different.

    if the sacd players have like 100 times more resolution than bluray players.. how come more people dont have sacd players in their homes?
    how come hollywood isnt releasing any movies on the discs? (maybe there isnt any room for audio and video)
    people's care is backwards, they care about other people when they have no right to say something.. and they arent caring about themselves when they should.

    people arent getting together to reveal the truth.. and that is a sign of major catastrophy.
    you see reviews that reflect how happy everybody is about all the new technology.. doesnt matter if it is electronics or chemistry.
    the review is usually something like this 'i dont want to be mean but, this product didnt work'
    as if they are saying 'i am happy it wasnt broken when i opened the box, but it doesnt work any better than if it was broken'

    my parents always told me to give credit where credit is due.
    and that credit goes to the industry who has successfully made the problems small enough (or the selection big enough) that people arent getting angry, but instead they just stand there and remain confused.
    and when it is time to 'need' the same thing.. the person goes out and makes the same mistake.
    they dont buy the exact same product.. but they didnt sit down and read about why the first product didnt work the first time.
    people dont get together and talk about WHY the product didnt work the first time.
    they dont sue the company for selling something that doesnt work.
    and they dont go to the factory to burn it down with a mob of angry people who have wasted their money.

    so i wish people the best.
    but sometimes their questions dont even contain enough information to get a real answer.
    what are we supposed to do when the person doesnt care enough to help themselves, but instead asks somebody to do it for them?
    lots of people say 'START A BUSINESS' and take their money.
    to that i say, i dont support the product enough to be willing to give up my time.. since we only live once.
    i believe the problem can only grow worse if we dont do something about it.
    and it is quite embarassing as a species to be saying that now, since the problem is already wide spread.
    when people are confused and lazy like that.. the only way it can get worse is for those people to go home and make more mistakes in their leisure time.

    i believe in a world where the average intelligence is much higher.
    and i also believe 'average intelligence' needs to be spread wider.
    we really cant sit back and let people starve.. because if we do, then the very few who do gather up some information form a 'clan' or 'group' of people that consider themselves elite.
    instead of them teaching other people.. they go out there and win competitions to further subject themselves to the quality they gathered up.
    that makes people sad.. they give up and quit, and the information the 'elite' group learned is still hard to find.

    it is rhetorical with the 'nobody cares because there is always somebody else who does'
    meaning, the people are sad and depressed from discovering what they have is junk compared to the products that won the competition.
    this sadness builds up and these people didnt share their experience with their children.
    that means their children will go out and try to do it, but the products are even worse now.. and the child learns the same thing the same way (except the results in the competition are less from both groups of people)
    if the parents would teach their children to not be persuaded by the inferior products, then they would try the new products of today and sue both companies for not providing any quality in return for their money.
    and if the 'elite' group had to pay extra for what they got.. that is simply another example of the rich depressing the poor.

    obviously there are farmers and inventors who earned all of this money to become rich.
    and their family has been rich ever since.
    there isnt anything else that can be done, as if to say.. if the product hasnt hit the market yet, it will eventually.. but the idea has already been invented.
    it is when the poor person has the same idea, and the rich people wont give them a loan to mass produce the product.
    so that is how the rich control the economy.

    i stand to say this.. being rich is nothing compared to being intelligent and mentally capable.
    to say that the intelligent and mentally capable are the lazy ones who dont get out there and do what they can.. to that i say, there are real problems in this world like being oppressed by people who are already in a decision making role.
    those people can get in the way when good people try to do something.

    that remains to be the sickest and ugliest way we live as a human species day to day.
    not being able to grow, being told to wait, being told you dont have enough money to participate, or being told 'not enough people love you for us to consider you acceptable'

    the more microphones and video cameras in the world.. the more we can program artificial intelligence to monitor those audio and video feeds to provide evidence for people who are too poor or dont have friends in their life.
    it is a real chance for those 'decision makers' who tell good people no.. the microphones and video cameras record that and a flag gets raised that says 'this person is being treated in a way they dont deserve to be treated'

    we really cant rely on humans to do it, because there simply isnt enough people who are that smart.
    sure, you will find groups of people who are really intelligent and capable of many things.. but they dont build families dedicated to cleaning up the world.
    sometimes people have children and the children arent as smart as the parents.. and that really ruins the process of KNOWING who has the ability and who doesnt.
    and i believe in my heart that those microphones and cameras will solve all of that.
    we wont have to wait for people to go to college and get good grades.. only to get a recommendation from the teacher.
    those things can happen just by going outside and being extra nice to people.
    it shows a passion, and that passion could be offered a chance to do something that helps people a lot more.
    and i believe if the person continues to do it, they should be asked again later on in life.
    maybe the person wasnt given all of the options available to them the first time.
    maybe the person had something else to do, and they have lots of free time in the future.

    as far as the original post is concerned..
    you are going to get what you put into the project.
    if you dont give anything but money, you arent going to get very much.
    if you build and design the speaker cabinets yourself.. you will be rewarded.
  9. @anywaypasible

    not to be rude in any way but if at all possible when responding to me can you please keep it short and to the point. i'm really not the type who wants to try and pick out details from a 10 page rant response. thanks much.


    in truth, the subwoofer is one of the reasons why i said it isnt the worst by far. i used it in a smaller room as well which might have improved the satelite speakers but i agree they lacked punch and did sound a little muddled. not horrible considering what else you can buy off the shelves for $100 though. the difference in build quality also was enough to be impressive (even if the sound was a little sub par).

    people as a whole only care about themselves. i dont think many give 5.0's because they dont want to offend people but i could concur with them being uneducated when it comes to better products. also you have to keep in mind price ranges, of course a $300 speaker will usually sound better than a $100 speaker (but not always i know..)

    in truth the promedias are a bit low for klipsh's standard. if you've ever heard the quintet IV (they have them at best buy) you'll hear a huge difference in quality.


    side note: i'm all for bringing home theater standards to the pc industry and throwing out pc speaker technology as a whole. how nice would it be if you could hook up home theater speakers directly to your sound card!
  10. my apologies.. when i type long like that, it is ment for everybody who is following the discussion.
    i do try to keep my rights MINE, and not the behalf of others.
    so i am a bit apologizing for coming off as if i was talking to you and only you.

    the subwoofer no doubt is louder than most subs from PC 2.1 speakers.
    i think the only thing that is any competition would be the 10 inch sub from logitech.
    so if anybody is reading this and wants a loud subwoofer, you could go with the klipsch promedia 2.1 system and have the brand name of klipsch.

    i dont think it is fair to listen to those speakers at best buy because the ceilings are way too high.
    and when you bring them home, they are going to sound different.
    it is the difference that is misleading, regardless of whether the speakers sound better or worse when you get them home.

    i would assume the pc speakers that connect directly to the sound card are either:
    1. going to sound good but not last
    2. going to sound bad and last a long time
    3. going to compromise something to keep cost down

    i'm guessing the klipsch speakers are getting better and better with each new model.
    because all of the klipsch i have heard are junk.
    the huge improvement for me was the peerless NHT surplus type speakers.
    i dont remember the model number and i'm not pulling the speaker out of the closet.
    they had hardly any mud, had extra tin sound.. but the tin was so far away from the vocals that it gives the speakers a sense of 'air'
    i havent heard any klipsch speakers that can give the presence of 'air'
    some of them are less mud, with a cardboard and tin sound.
    maybe one day i will go to best buy and have a listen.
    if they are the same ones i listened to a few months ago.. there isnt anything special about them when using a plug and play interface.
    cant say that it wasnt the amplifier that caused it, i suppose.
    but it sounded like another speaker with a $20 upgrade.

    if you go to parts express and view some of the peerless speakers, you can then go to and check out the speakers frequency response.
    you could go to the vifa/peerless website for the data.
    the frequency responses are really really quite flat for a good portion of the frequency range.
    then you build or buy your crossover with the appropriate cutoff frequency.

    not only are those frequency responses flat, they are open and 'airy' sounding.
    a total opposite of the mud and cardboard.. since those are perceived as clausterphobic spaces.
    people who get their own crossovers, and get a tweeter that overlaps the midrange.. and get the crossover point right (including the 3db rolloff of 12dB/octave)
    these people usually spend $300 - $400 on a single pair of speakers.
    but to compare them with anything already pre-made in the same price category is laughable.
    especially because you can do a 3-way setup with a 12 inch woofer.
    if the box is big and ported enough, you can easily get down into the 20hz area with just those two speakers from a 100 watt /channel amplifier.

    it is like comparing a person who went to highschool for all four years, but didnt graduate (or maybe even dropped out their sophmore year)
    compared to people who graduated with B's and some A's

    there isnt anything out there pre-made that can compare with the same price point.
    people dont put in any effort except handing over some money,.. they dont get rewarded for it, even if they spend $300 - $400
    you do that and the speakers will sound half as good as the home made system for the same price.
    as i have said it before, the closest thing i can compare it to is building a computer for yourself or buying one from dell or hewlett packard.
    lock yourself into a price category and dare to search.. it wont happen.
    the industry isnt rewarding anybody that doesnt put effort into their project.
    if you want them to 'reward' you, then you have to pay an inflated price.
    these prices arent small chunks either, they are MULTIPLES.. like 2x or 3x or 4x the cost compared to building it yourself.

    i did a headgasket on my vehicle that cost me about $200
    the local mechanic shop said they would do it for $1,000 - $1,200
    that is a savings of $800 - $1,000
    i just cant make it any more clear when it comes to money transferred and effort.
    we live in an economy that wants people to do things themselves.
    doesnt matter if it is a hobby or an absolute need.. as it all boils down to 'getting the idea of how things are' and going to college.
    so what if you go to college and get a bunch of B's
    that only means you are better off working with your college degree than working at some fast food place or factory.
    when you bump into somebody that is giving you a problem.. you only wish that they went to school to make themselves more confident about who they are.
    many jobs in the area require a college degree OR like 5 or 6 or 10 years experience.
    and when all of the jobs are like that, you dont get the experience.. to say that it is all a joke, and you have to go to college.

    nobody wants a person to open a business, because the rich families can open a business.. buy more product's = lower price because of wholesale = higher quality products the customers receive.
    that is why the economy is pushing hard to make building a profit difficult.
    if you cant afford the wholesale, you are running the business to help people and make a 1:1 money transfer.
    that is how you keep a business running without financial help.
    and that means you gotta be doing something on the side, either a hobby or a professional job.

    people cant afford to save up $400 to build a 2 channel speaker system.
    they will save up $800 - $1,200 for a new LCD television .. so go figure that.

    people go to rent-a-centers and spend $2,000 on a television that costs $800 .. again, figure that.
    i wish people would care about themselves more.
    and i sometimes wish they would do it before they care about other people.

    i think the fast food industry isnt helping the situation any.
    because it teaches people that they can go out and buy a sandwhich from the 99 cent menu and still get decent flavor.
    well.. that is the same with some of these speakers on sale that come without a speaker box or combo.
    they arent the expensive entree's that you would get if you hired a custom chef that does chemistry.
    but this is so high in class that most people dont even know it exists.
    so take it down a notch and bring it to red lobster or some other food chain that charges double the price of taco bell or mcdonalds.
    is the food good? yes its alright, but we know that it is watered down and could taste much different.
    if it isnt the taste, it is certainly the way the food makes you feel when you are done eating (like 20 - 40 minutes later)
    seafood has the potential to be like heroin when eaten.
    many foods that can really function like a drug alternative.. but the consumers get the washed out version.

    spending $80 on a computer desk made of particle board.. compared to spending $800 on a computer desk.
    the more expensive one you can sit and even jump on.. but you wouldnt dare do it with the cheaper one.
    and if you spent $200 on wood to build one from 2x4's and a plywood top.. i bet you could pull a car with it !!!!
    dont know how many miles you would get before the thing finally breaks.. but i know you will get much further than the cheap $80 particle board desk.
    the $800 desk would probably pull a car too.. but you spent $600 more on it.

    havent these people learned that whenever there is a 'middle man' between manufacturer and seller, there is going to be a higher cost OR less quality?

    check out the quemex watches.. some of them look REALLY good.
    but i bet the glue that holds the glass is so cheap that the glass pops out.
    and i have seen the dials inside come unglued and rotate.. totally ruining the ability to tell what time it is.
    but these watches look designer before the glue stops (i dont know how well they keep time though)
    again, these watches look like $300 watches sometimes.
    they only cost like $12 each.

    looks good, but doesnt work = a toy
    looks bad, but works really good = a rednecks tool (or a ghetto hoopty)
    the rich pay for both.. and that is how the rich become poor.

    another thing..
    the economy doesnt usually offer high quality products for extremely low prices because people will say to themselves 'why do i need a high paying job when i can get products like this for a price i can afford?'
    that means more people working at mcdonalds and gas stations.. never going to college, never getting their GED, and never getting a job that they dont consider work.. but actually some fun hobby that pays them well.

    if your favorite thing to do is ride roller coasters, you could go to college and become an insurance agent that could ride rollercoasters to determine if they have grown to be unsafe and an insurance risk.
    you would get paid for riding the roller coaster and spending all day at the park.
    to say people do it for free, and they could be doing it while getting paid.. i dont think we see it very often because people have to go to work to pay for rent and food.
    so they dont have the time to do things they enjoy, and think about getting paid while doing it.

    not everything is worth the price tag.
    that saying goes for expensive things AND cheap things.
    if you need a baking pan, you could go to the dollar store and get one for less than $5
    and if you need a spatula or spoon to stir the food, you could probably get one for $1
    yet, people spend $12 on one spatula at their favorite store.

    what ever.
    if you buy the expensive one and then buy the cheap one... .. if you cant find a reason to stick with the expensive one, then you have no reason to be buying the expensive one in the first place.

    i am a poor person.. i drive down roads that dont go uphill to try and save gasoline.
    maybe i should just shut up and find a way to over-charge people and put all of their money into my pocket.
    they spend it like they dont care about it.
    and when they want more quality than what they are willing to understand, they should be paying for it.
    kinda like buying a rope from nasa.. you will never use the rope to hold something as heavy as what the rope can do.
    and you have no idea that the rope could last 70 years.. but they dont care, they just want a rope from nasa.
    when the rope can hold 4 tons and is the same thickness as a 10 gauge wire.. it better be a really special person that wants that rope, because otherwise they are either going to give themselves a bunch of hatred towards other ropes (and this is usually what happens)
    they simply never use the rope to its full potential and the sale of the rope was a total waste.

    people have to see it to believe it.
    they trust the company they are buying it from because the company did something right in the past.
  11. Thanks for all the advice, but not really wanting to build my own. I have no idea on how to choose a speaker system, but you guys have helped.

    Still though can anyone put up a link of a pair that is quite clear. I dont mind how loud the sub is
  12. we have no idea what you mean when you say 'quite clear'
    i dont think anybody has a list of the 'better' pc speaker systems.. because none of them are enough for our tastes.

    as it was already said, if you want a 'clear' midrange.. the chances of it coming with a subwoofer for $200 is probably not going to happen.
    i think the speaker manufacturers feel the same way we do.. there is no sense using a 'better' speaker with an amplifier that is only going to last 1 or 2 years.

    until those speakers get banned from production, your price point is too low for a pre-built set.

    since we are pretty much telling you to use your own ears.. we could at least offer you some guidelines.

    there seems to be two very distinct differences with pc speakers nowadays.
    1. the slew rate of the amplifier being reproduceable by the speaker
    2. the signal to noise ratio being reproduceable by the speaker

    you will have to pick which type you want.
    since the signal to noise ratio is what is going to seperate the vocals from any noise, these speakers might be the improvement you are after.
    the other ones, well the vocals are closer to noise.. but more of the audio seems to pour out of the speaker, meaning you will hear more of the audio track.. but it will also be accompanied with background noise.

    for me.. listening with the extra background noise is way too fatiguing.
    listening to speakers that do a good job of seperating the vocals from the background noise will not provide a lot of detail with whatever is played back.
    the silence is pleasant, since it makes one think their system is following the times of higher signal to noise ratios and less harmonic distortion.
    knowing the speakers could output more details is always a constant complaint for those of us who have heard the improvement.

    a part of me says, you turn on the speakers to listen to audio.. so there is absolutely no sense with removing some of that audio being played back.
    this amounts to hearing the background noise and getting more sound of the audio track pouring out of the speaker.

    it is a pretty hostile environment concerning pc speakers.. as they are the absolute lowest in terms of quality for any speaker in the price range.
    sometimes comparing a pc speaker and a home speaker, you have to remove the amplifier section from the home speaker category because everyone is expected to go out and pick a receiver.
    i have been impressed by home theater in a box system before, but only to say that there was more output than i ever expected.. not saying there was more clarity than i ever expected.
    but anyways.. home theater in a box systems usually always have some piece of the set that breaks.

    i can go grab a 99 cent chicken sandwhich from mcdonalds, its food and it is cheap.. but it actually makes me feel MORE hungry when i am done eating it.

    we bump heads because you probably havent heard the better improvements that can be had from building your own speakers.
    you could say that we dont care about the cost of the tools.. and that we suggest you already have these tools as an adult or 20 year old.
    not true for everybody to have these tools.. i see this as true.
    it is also been proven thousands of times, if you dont build it yourself.. you are going to have to pay extra.

    so what is it going to boil down to?
    me telling you that you are simply asking too much from the audio industry for the price and lack of hands on effort?
    we wont see eye to eye when you start saying far-fetched things like 'well there HAS TO BE something out there that sounds better than the rest'
    because NO there doesnt have to be anything out there that sounds better then the rest.. that is unfair business practice and it could get a business sued for playing unfair.
    we have to complain to the audio industry as a whole.. so no one company goes out and builds an unfair product.
    maybe we have to listen to all of the arguements about 'these speakers sound good if you are far away because they are far-field speakers'
    not everybody has the space to place the speakers far enough away to capture the resonating beauty the speakers can offer.
    most people put their computer speakers within 5ft of their ears.
    and the audio industry would say, well then if we make all of our speakers for 5ft .. what about the people who listen from further away?
    what about all of those speakers being sold individually for the audio hobby enthusiast?
    would that mean you are expecting us to shift the entire quality of all speakers from the most cheap to the most expensive.. all of those speakers get a bump in quality?
    they might as who you are and what you deserve.
    as these kind of decisions require a vote rather than a demand.
    if you have looked at other people and what they buy.. it would seem pretty hard to make a boycott actually work.
    there will be people who havent even heard of the boycott.
    and by the time you are done spending money on publicity.. you could have used that money to get yourself some better speakers.
    and you will probably be taunted for that decision to spend the money on publicity rather than use the money for better speakers.

    you probably dont want to hear it.. but,
    the majority of your money is going towards the longevity of the products.. so that they dont break in 1 or 2 years.
    if you beg enough, then maybe they build better speakers that dont last as long.. and then you would be somewhat responsible for breaking the hearts of other people when their speaker system breaks.

    see.. if the average PC speaker sounds close to something that is supposed to be 'high quality' somewhere else in the audio market.. they would either have to charge more for the PC speakers (and that isnt going to happen) or they would have to make those other speakers cost less (and that is going to be taking money out of somebody's pocket)
    the whole industry should be making the change to keep all categories and price points seperated, as well as fair.
    we should be thankful that we are rewarded for building our own speaker systems piece by piece.
    but yes,
    i agree that the PC market could always use a bump in improvement.. since it could take the entire audio industry one step closer to better audio for everybody.
    that also means we are one step closer to being DONE with the quality that is available.
    it means speakers and speaker cabinets would need to be made thinner to 'keep up with the technology revolution'
    as some people simply wont settle for 30 different speakers that all have only minor differences.
    they would complain that the choice is too hard because the differences are too closely related.
    that doesnt mean all of the capabilities of the speakers are tested and examined.. it means if you plug the speaker in and press play, it is hard to know why they sound different and what special things they can do to make themselves better.
    it isnt all about using some time delay and cranking the speaker up as loud as it can go before it distorts.
    some speakers can handle 32 bands of equalization for the one speaker.. others cannot.
    sensitivity can go down.. and the general output will appear to distort.

    some speakers will already sound almost flat.. and they wont tolerate being touched with an equalizer.
    other speakers will tolerate the use of an equalizer.

    and since equalizing the speaker isnt the only correction they have in mind.. things like the phase differences are also going to matter.
    sure, you can connect the positive to the negative and the negative to the positive to flip the phase 180 degrees.
    each octave might have a slightly different phase.. and people hardly know anything about this at all.
    it wasnt until subwoofers came out that have a continuously variable phase knob.
    some have a 180 degree switch you can flip.. others have a 0 - 180 degree knob that lets you select just about any phase inbetween.

    people still use reverb.. and some people use reverb with a stronger effect than others.
    one speaker might do it, the other speaker might try and fail.

    some people will never know what is going on because they use an automated room optimization process.
    to these people.. all they will know is that they use the room optimization process by pressing the 'start' button.. and when the process is finished, their speakers are distorting (or they dont sound as clear and detailed as they did before pressing the start button)

    so to them, they would say 'i used the automated setup and it made my speakers distorted.. so i dont use the automatic setup'
    meaning.. WHY did you pay for it then?
    you spent extra money on the automated setup when that money could have made the amplifier sound more clear and realistic!!

    lets say you get your car painted and you use a really high quality color.. then you choose to have the whole thing sprayed with a really cheap clear coating.
    all of that money you spent on a custom color is going to be ruined in 5 years because the clear coating came off and the car is now starting to rust (or that fancy color is starting to peel)

    you have to be there step by step for the process.
    and no, you dont have to listen to people who give you advice.. but you will be wasting time to learn if the advice is true or false.
    so say you waste time and find out the advise is true.. wouldnt you want to tell other people 'dont waste your time'
    and then the people say 'i dont want or have to listen to you'

    okay person..
    as the one giving you the advice is doing one of two things:
    1. they are wishing you the best and telling you what it takes to get there
    2 they are lieing to you for their own amusement

    this forum is supposed to be public.. and if we are lieing to you, somebody would come along and say something.
    i believe we have created a foundation that talks about improving the quality of speakers.. and also discussing how there are many speakers that dont sound very good.
    this leads people to listen to their speakers and say to themselves 'yeah.. these dont sound all that great, they could be much much better since there is such a far distance between realism and what these things produce'
    and that helps us say again and again without arguements that the audio industry is tortuing us who want more and only want to pay for it rather than get involved.

    i mean, if you feel that there is no truth.. ask the moderators and the website admins to hold a vote about what was said in reply to you.
    i'm not saying they know right from wrong.. but together as a group, they should be able to make some sense out of it.
    as it isnt hard to find the complaints that are spot on with what has been said.
    there are countless reviews that pop up saying 'not the worst.. but could improve'

    and here you come along asking us which speaker system would be the best for your money.. as if all of those other people have already found the answer and you are simply late.
    as if we have found the UNFAIR solution that costs the same, but does everything better.. and you are the early one that hears which product does it all.

    i dont believe either one of those are true for our current time.
    if i lived somewhere close to an electronics store that would actually plug in all of the speakers they sell.. i would be able to tell you which ones i have heard and which one sounds the best.
    then maybe there is a line of people who take that advice and go buy the recommended speakers.
    and if the numbers are high enough, maybe those other speaker companies get angry with me because i didnt give them the chance for people to learn from their mistakes.. ESPECIALLY if there is a store refund policy.

    sure, yes..
    maybe it would be better if i took a 'top 5' from the best of what i have heard.. and then it would be up to each manufacturer to get a product into the top selections.
    and if there is no reason for me to stop at 5 .. i could do a 'top 10'
    it is true that this is a better way to try and force the manufacturers to improve the quality of their weakest product.
    not everybody is going to come here and read it.
    some wont bother to read the suggestion.. other people will save up the extra money to grab something from the 'home studio' category of pc speakers.

    and to be honest.. what makes you think a pc speaker that DOESNT fit into the 'home studio' category is going to sound anything close to the speakers in the 'home studio' category?
    do you believe in your heart that the company would try to aim for the 'home studio' category and miss by 10 - 15% and mass produce the speaker anyways?
    since they cant sell the speaker at the higher price category.. most people would say 'scrap the project entirely because your profits are going to be extremely low compared to everybody else'
    maybe that person who says 'i will sell them speakers anyways for the same price as the lower quality speakers'
    then a company shouts out 'i will sue you for lost revenue because everybody is going to be buying your speakers without even looking at my speakers'
    see.. again with the unfair business practice.
    the other company would have to say 'it is a human right to be free'
    and the complaining company would say 'being free in the business market is unheard of.. since all re-sellers must sell our products at or above the price tag we tell them to sell the product at.'

    and it boils down to this.. if one company is willing to give more quality at the same price, it ruins and embarasses the entire price category.
    so people quickly say 'you get what you pay for' and forget this most important rule..
    if you design a product that is too good for the $100 market.. but not good enough for the $200
    of course it would then be $150 right where it belongs.
    what do those re-sellers do? .. they take the $150 and charge $175 to get more money from the customer.
    so when we go to the store and start shopping for something in the $200 price range.. we say 'HEY this one is only $175 (on sale for $150) .. i will get this one and save some money'
    then they bring it home and realize that it isnt the same as the products being sold for $200
    and if they dont know how good the $200 products are.. they think in their heads 'wow.. i cant even get something of decent quality for $200 .. i wonder how much they expect us to pay to be happy'
    and usually this customer will never try to buy one of those products ever again.
    maybe they start buying from the $50 category because the $200 category seems like a huge waste of money.
    this happens still sometimes... but it appears there is some team work in place to try and prevent such a problem.
    because the customer might give up and not buy another thing that does what the $150 product did.
    they buy a $50 product that is supposed to do the same thing and they live day after day unhappy with their $50 (or the $150) product.

    then comes along the company that builds the product that does it all correctly without the mistakes that the lower cost versions do.
    they say 'HEY.. these customers are going to give up before they ever get it right, and that means bankruptcy for the entire product category'
    not only was the product supposed to do something for people.. the company who makes one that does it really good is also going to be forced out of business (or they are forced to sell the remainder of their products at a much much lower price tag.. hoping people will come back to the product category before it is too late)
    if the product category doesnt stop full production.. the companies that do it better and never get any customers, they cant afford advertisements.
    and people dont hear about the company that does it right.
    so when we come across this website that shows a product for a lot more money.. we think it isnt worth it to take a chance and spend all that money, because nobody wants to spend a lot of money for junk and be totally ripped off.
    we take too much time to go to work and be without our friends and family to just give the money away.
    trying to sue the company for selling junk at an inflated price tag costs money.. as it will cost you time at the very least.
    you wont be at work for it = you wont be making money.
    you wont be with your friends and family during the process = you wont be doing something to make you happy while you wait.

    from the advice i gave you..
    will that extra background noise from the speakers prove to be too loud if your ears are really far away from the speakers?
    maybe you hear more at 5ft away.. but what about at 12 or 13ft ??
    since most people will be about 5ft away while on the computer.. and then 14 or 15ft away while watching a movie using the same speakers.

    the industry is so really really bad with the quality available.. i am almost tempted to tell you to go grab a pair of BOSE headphones for your money.
    i heard a pair at best buy that wasnt premium.. but they sounded better than the PC speakers.

    i tried to go to the best buy website to see which ones i had listened to.
    i think the demo display showed only quiet comfort headphones.
    and the quiet comfort 15 is $300 ... totally not worth it for the sound clarity you get.
    if one of those other two was also in the demo display.. maybe that was the first one that sounded like crap?
    there was one in the middle that sounded decent.. and the one on the left was supposed to be more expensive, but the improvement wasnt showing much other than the little bit of 'range' that seperates the near sounds from the far sounds.

    see.. speakers work like this.
    the one step is to get the clarity from the vocals.
    the next step is to get the sense of distance from the vocals and other sounds.
    if you put these on, they already have an untrue sense of distance.. everything sounds like it is distant.. as if the speaker is too far away from your ear (but without all of the air between the speaker and the ear)

    if you want the best sound for $200
    go to best buy and see if the headphones in the middle are about that price.
    i really dont remember which models i listened to.. all i remember is 'quiet comfort' being shown on the demo case.
    and i remember the middle ones werent much better than the ones on the far left.
    i also remember putting the headphones down and looking at the price tag and thinking to myself 'wow these people are asking me to be a fool'

    i apologize about the model numbers.. because this visit was like 4-5 months ago.
    i just know for a fact that the vocals and general clarity is higher than the PC speakers.
    the only way to get the same clarity is to turn the PC speakers up really loud and be like 20ft away from them.
    otherwise, when you turn them down, the sound is muddled from the lack of energy going to the speaker.

    it is a real shame that best buy has all of these headphones for sale (at the local stores too) and almost none of them were available for listening.
    i have tried to hear the 'beats by dr. dre' two or three times.. and each time the amplifier was broken (or the volume was really low and would not turn up)

    for $200 and not willing to build some speaker cabinets.. you probably want headphones to get some audio clarity.
    seems like the only bump in quality you can get unless you put the speakers in a different room and crank 'em up real loud while listening in a different room.
  13. Hi this article is for you:
    I have the logitec z623 and they great! i dont understand so much about high quality but i think they sound good.
  14. If you're still looking for ~$200 speakers, I would seriously consider Swan. I have a pair of Swan m10s and they sound fantastic. The Swan m10s are a 2.1 system for about ~120. But the Swan D1080MKII are really something you should look into before you buy. That or audioengine 2 or M-Audio M40s might be worth looking into. There's definitely a lot better quality speakers on the market than Boss, Klipsch, Logitech, & Creative, especially if you appreciate sound quality. The guys at can set you straight and offer good advice. Here's a good hub with reviews on audioengine and swan's.
  15. thanks all. I am probably going to go with the M-Audio Studiophile.
  16. oh wow..

    i have heard of the swans before, and that they are supposed to be an upgrade to everday junk.. but i didnt know the price was as low as $120
    i thought they started at $250
    making them another $300 set of speakers that really wouldnt deserve any attention.

    i knew the m-audio studiophile speakers are said to be another improvement.. but i wouldnt wish that frequency response or speaker size to anybody.

    and at the end of the day .. these speakers are usually 8 or 15 (sometimes 30) watts per channel.
    it is better for you to have it at all than be without.
    all of this video upgrades.. some of these videos arent even full resolution, the camera just focuses better.
    seems pretty crazy to not adjust the focus on the speakers.

    i think it is pretty weird that the original poster wanted a subwoofer and then chose to go with some 4 inch midranges only.
  17. @anwaypasible

    the reason why the price for the head gasket price at a shop differs from what you paid is for quite a few reasons. lets not factor in the actual gasket prices since you both would have that expense.

    -shop labor is $60 to $80 an hour, your labor was free
    -shops have to have insurance in case your car fails because of their work, you dont.
    -shops have a bunch of overhead expenses, you dont
    -shops are working to make a profit, you arent.

    so if you asked do shops overcharge you? then my answer would be sometimes yes sometimes no. small shops are usually more reasonable but they still HAVE to charge you more than it would cost to do it yourself. large dealerships and other shady shops DO overcharge you by about 4-6x what its work because they can get away with it.

    .... also

    you cannot compare $300-400ea speakers with a set of 5 speakers i bought for only $550. sure maybe they do sound better than my klipsch's, which do sound great, but you're talking about 5-6x the budget which isn't a comparison at all.


    as far as speakers are concerned, in general, the lower the price point the worse they will sound (with a few anomolies). you cant compare a $50 with a $100 system, or a $200 with a $400 system.

    just find a system that sounds good to you, and be happy. what i like is not what others like. i already recommended a few things, but in general its up to the end user to decide exactly what to buy.
  18. ssddx said:

    the reason why the price for the head gasket price at a shop differs from what you paid is for quite a few reasons. lets not factor in the actual gasket prices since you both would have that expense.

    -shop labor is $60 to $80 an hour, your labor was free
    -shops have to have insurance in case your car fails because of their work, you dont.
    -shops have a bunch of overhead expenses, you dont
    -shops are working to make a profit, you arent.

    so if you asked do shops overcharge you? then my answer would be sometimes yes sometimes no. small shops are usually more reasonable but they still HAVE to charge you more than it would cost to do it yourself. large dealerships and other shady shops DO overcharge you by about 4-6x what its work because they can get away with it.

    .... also

    you cannot compare $300-400ea speakers with a set of 5 speakers i bought for only $550. sure maybe they do sound better than my klipsch's, which do sound great, but you're talking about 5-6x the budget which isn't a comparison at all.


    as far as speakers are concerned, in general, the lower the price point the worse they will sound (with a few anomolies). you cant compare a $50 with a $100 system, or a $200 with a $400 system.

    just find a system that sounds good to you, and be happy. what i like is not what others like. i already recommended a few things, but in general its up to the end user to decide exactly what to buy.

    i enjoy how the shop works, because i believe in their expenses.
    it is absolutely true.. if they damage the engine (or encounter some problem) then the engine would need to be replaced.
    could be the block because of a severe 'do it yourself' removal of a bolt.
    could be the heads that wouldnt come off, or was otherwise damaged beyond repair.
    things like severe scratches to the surface is one reason these things need to be replaced.
    not all engines can have something fall onto them and expect the seal to stay sealed.
    minor gouges with a razer are generally not important.. but if a support beam fell and slammed into the metal and caused a 1/16th of an inch gash, then yes .. that is what insurance is for.
    if they take the thing apart and the block is severely warped, that is the condition of your engine.. your property, meaning the problem is yours as it was discovered.
    warped heads might be because they took them off wrong (used the wrong untightening sequence)

    and usually the insurance of the engine can be all that is paid by the customer, and if the shop has experience and knows how to fix minor problems for little money.. then whatever is left is profit.
    that accounts for buying things wholesale.. like instead of buying gallons of oil, they buy a drum of it.
    and instead of buying antifreeze by the gallon.. again the drum.
    hourly rates can be allured to an equation of what the average price of an engine is.
    if the shop can get engines cheap, then it is a fair market price.
    charging extra per hour is usually just stupidity from the customer, unless there is a known reason to pay a 'premium' price.

    the points listed are well said, and they apply to anything pre-built or already done for you.

    and i strongly believe you are on to something about $300 - $400 per speaker set, being not comparible to a 5 speaker set for the same price.
    the beauty of it is, you see ONE midrange for like $30 on sale.
    then you grab two tweeters for like $40 each
    and the actual woofers to give them some bass is going to cost however much for the amount of bass you want.
    a good 12 inch woofer costs about $80 each
    the total here is $300

    then you need two 3-way crossovers.. and you can find these wherever for different prices.
    i got a pair of cerwin vega crossovers on ebay for like $40
    brings the cost to $340

    then you need some wood to build the cabinets.. and a sheet of MDF costs about $50
    brings the cost to $390

    glue is questionable since people have different choices.. but say $15
    brings the cost to $405 + screws = $410

    these speakers will play well into the 20hz area for $410 without a need for a subwoofer.
    if you want two more for the rear, the cost would obviously be $820

    the center channel would be two midranges for $30 each
    the cost for the tweeter would be about $40
    and the crossover would be about $20
    another $120
    bringing the cost to $940 if there is enough wood for the center channel
    you could find wood in the trash and save on the cost of wood (not always a bunch of wood in the trash though, could take a month or two to find with the free time to look)

    about $1,000 to build a set yourself.
    lets consider the cost of the stereo pair of speakers.. $410
    the real joy is to hear how good the speakers sound compared to other speakers in the same price category.
    i cant help myself but to say that the sound should rival stereo speakers that cost up to $1,500
    so when you save yourself another $1,100 .. what is the shame in that?
    it makes it fun to compare the speakers you built with other speakers that cost twice as much (or even 3x as much)
    because then.. when you want another improvement in sound quality, you will at least buy the speakers to put into the speaker cabinet (or sell the old ones and build new cabinets).
    you'll be spending again, and for the speaker manufacturers who know the real price it cost to make the speaker and store it in a warehouse until it is sold... they are going to make a profit the first time you buy, and they will make a profit the second time you buy.
    because the first time, you aimed at the $1,500 market of speakers.
    the second time.. well you would probably be aiming at the $5,000 market of stereo speakers.
    with some time and WANT.. the speaker manufacturers will bring out more speakers that sound even better.
    you re-build your listening room for a different type of listening.

    there is no 'so' in my book.
    i know that the original poster doesnt have $410 for a stereo pair of speakers.
    because even then, you need a receiver to power them = another $400 - $700

    but realize that if you are an audio enthusiast, you might already have parts laying around.
    and you dont need to put these midranges and tweeters into a cabinet to enjoy them.
    $60 for the midranges.. $80 for the tweeters.. use a crossover you already have (or grab a pair off ebay for $20)
    wire them up and you are done for $160
    throw in the subwoofer you have owned for the last 8 years and you got some bass.
    still need an amp for the midranges though.. and you can buy something used.

    however, these prices are for some of the best speakers that the store offers.
    you can always go down into the $10 - $20 category and get sound that is better than the PC speakers.
    two midranges for $30
    two tweeters for $20
    one pair of crossovers for $20
    that is $70 with no box (just lay 'em sideways and enjoy)
    the other $130 for an amp.
    that is no bass and an improvement in clarity.
    since most people have a job and the money keeps coming back.. you could build something 'stupid' like this and buy the rest of the pieces a few months down the road.
    it would at least be functional and sound better for the vocals and treble until you get something for the bass.
    using the amp until you save up for a receiver, then sell the amp.

    i know, these prices are high and the system isnt even finished totally.
    but the problem you ask?
    people dont even buy ONE speaker for $30 while it is on sale and hook it up the their radio to see if there is any reason why the speaker is even there for sale in the first place.
    do you think it is a cheap replacement speaker?
    because i just told you how one set of speakers is about $400
    consider the many people who buy 'bookshelf' speakers for no more than $300

    i think it is like saying no to food that you havent smelled or tasted before.. you just look at it and say no.

    okay.. so maybe i am being too hard on people?
    because i dont think waiting for the speaker to go on sale is too much to ask when you only buy one.
    the speaker ad says 'characterized by their very open and rich sound' .. blah blah blah, they say the speaker isnt junk or trash.. but actually a piece of candy for an audiophile.

    i let somebody borrow one of them peerless speakers and i havent seen it back in 2 years.
    if it was worse than nothing at all, then i probably would have gotten it back.

    i apologize for informing people that the bang for the buck audiophile is forced to build their own speakers piece by piece.
    but i am glad they do it because people who dont care about the quality of their audio are sure to argue about something else in the future.
    so it is an easy way to simply avoid these types of people.

    i mean c'mon.. seriously
    if you need a car and find a carcass in the junkyard with a blown engine.. you could probably get the car without the engine for $1,000
    and you can find a freshly rebuilt engine for $1,000 (or less locally if you ask around or know where to go)
    that gives you a car for $2,000
    and the car doesnt have to have any dents or rust (maybe some minor rust because the car is 8 years old)
    if you went to a car dealership.. they would probably ask at least $3,500 for something as dependable as the one you just built.
    again with saving $1,500

    maybe we should start by telling people their price they are willing to spend is too low.. and if they want 'best' sound to continue trying the alternatives.
    maybe you can go to the junkyard and find some aftermarket speakers in the door panels.. those are usually two way.
    put them in a cardboard box with a hole cut out for the speaker and they will probably sound better (or just as good) as the PC speakers without a subwoofer.

    there is only one thing.. anybody who cares about audio should always have an amp to drive the speakers.
    it could be your testing tool, or your foundation for a hobby.
    like.. all remote controlled vehicle people, all of them are supposed to have a controller.
    doesnt matter if they enjoy trucks or cars or buggys or helicopters or planes.. they are supposed to have a controller.

    why do people never listen to the speakers available for demo at the stores?
    and when they do.. why do they come here and ask for something better as if it exists?
    the 'premium' speakers for PC are so stupid with their 8 watts per channel.
    those things are ment for people who want to listen to some music while sitting down for breakfast eating some toast.
    and if the food was crunchy, you wouldnt hear the speakers over the sound in your mouth.

    okay okay okay.. so people who CARE are expected to listen to the junk and know which one sounds best.
    my bad.
    the blind leading the blind is something i try to avoid.
    and i thank you for giving me the opportunity to put a closing statement to a thread where i have once again suggested something in relation to the word 'best'

    if you worked at mcdonalds and seen a lot of people buying the 99 cent chicken sandwhich that actually makes you MORE hungry when you are done eating it.. would you be scared by stupidity?
    if you see the same person come in twice a week.. would you be scared about all of the money that person pours down the drain?

    i am not trying to be difficult.. as i have already said, buy the $30 speaker and see what all of the fuss is about.
    i know it is supposed to get you hooked into wanting to finish the project.
    kinda like how 'buy 3 tires and get 1 free' is supposed to make you want to get 4 tires when you only need 1.

    so if you only need the speakers to play audio.. why cant you go to the local store and grab the cheapest ones on the shelf?
    do you think about how much power the amplifier is and how loud they are?
    what about how much bass they can put out?
    these are the top two questions of the millions of people SEARCHING.
    i say if you are searching, you shouldnt give up.. and continue finding the answers since you already started the upgrade process.
    because you know what happens? ... you get a big sticker in your face saying 500 watt subwoofer, and the subwoofer stops playing at 35hz
    a frequency that a WOOFER should be playing.
    i think we all know now that a subwoofer is supposed to play lower than the other speakers.
    but the industry keeps making subwoofers play higher and HIGHER.

    sales and marketing have nothing to do with the value of the item you get with your money.
    making me think i am a salesman that wants to show people how to start talking about things like 'best for $200'
    and i am not going to leave this post empty-handed.

    another forum thread was talking about wireless headsets.
    there was a 'turtle beach' wireless headset that has 7.1 dolby digital audio (but no DTS apparently)
    the thing has a bass boost of +9dB from 20hz - 150hz
    and the thing had a price tag of like $150
    i only wish i heard if the speakers were clear or not.. because i would have pointed the original poster to some headphones to get that person as far away from the junk as possible.

    the television industry tried to do this, and what did they forget to do?
    they got people far away from the big heavy televisions with the bent convergence.. but they didnt care to tell people which ones will break in a year and which ones wont.

    now isnt that the same type of answer you would expect on a forum?
    if the speakers are 3 years old.. they probably are not for sale anymore.
    and if the person says 'i have only had them for about 1 year' ... then you dont know if they are going to break next year.

    you get out of a situation what you put into it.
    sometimes people have to PAY for such good advice, and this person didnt show any background information at all.
    the internet is already charging people to meet new friends or find a 'buddy'
    you just cant find a 'buddy' without paying for the chance to speak.
    otherwise, people already have friends that live in the same town.. and they go on and on about their business without ever seeing how hard it is for the lonely people.

    $200 can be a lot of money.. so there is no point going on and on about how easily that money can be wasted?
    the original poster came to the forum and had to ask, and i think those of us who usually respond to the questions also have to ask.. because we dont want anything to do with the low quality.
    and what about all of the websites that do hardware reviews?
    why are we getting these questions when the person could read the reviews for themselves?
    are we supposed to be more knowledgable or just more honest?
    because if we are more honest.. how should we be expected to have listened to the speakers?

    gathering up that much information takes a lot of time and energy.
    after listening to three or four different PC speakers at the stores, i think we stop listening because we dont like what we hear.
    kinda like avoiding a group of people because you dont like what they do for fun.

    maybe the major problem here is..
    not enough people talking about how small the differences are between all of the readily available PC speakers.
    then we could answer with.. $80 or $200 doesnt matter, they all sound the same.. none of them is going to make you say wow.

    there was some mention about speakers that are designed to make the person say wow.. but they are extremely limited with their bass and output levels.

    nothing like tasting the best thing you have ever tasted in your whole entire life.. and it was only the size of a quarter in your hand.. and there isnt anymore for you to eat.
    it is a TEASE.
    and that means they are taunting us.
    and that means they are torturing us.

    but i enjoy talking on this forum.. so i will strongly agree with what was said in the quoted post:
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