Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

Could use help with System 9 to System 11 conversion (NO S..

Last response: in Video Games
Share
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 22, 2005 2:54:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Greetings fellow pinheads. :-)

I have recently been trying to "fix" my Space Shuttle. The background:
After playing the game reliably during a gathering at my house, the next
time I turned it on it immediately started resetting (typically, before the
ball even got ejected into the shooter lane). I tried all of the typical
power supply fixes (winding up with essentially a new power supply in the
end). Sometime early in the power supply debug, the sound also stopped
working.

None of this fixing of the power supply really worked out, so I wound up
purchasing another power supply and a system 11 board (along with System 11
versions of Space Shuttle ROMs) off eBay. After plugging in the new boards
I found that I still had the same problems. I tracked at least one problem
down to a short in the playfield (which in itself is weird, since one time
it worked, the next time it didn't, no real opportunity of fiddling with
anything to cause the short).

The game now plays fine as a system 11, but I have no audio (at all, no
background, no voice, nothing). The system 11 board came to me as "verified
working," but since I purchased it from another collector, I don't really
know the audio worked before it got to me. I can verify that the amp and
connection to the speakers is good, as increasing the volume pot lets me
"hear" the lights during attract mode (famous audio crosstalk problem of
system 11 and system 9 pins). The board being used is a system 11, revision
B (that is to say: A plain old System 11, not System 11A, B or C, but
System 11 with the 7 segment LED display, board revision B).

I think its conceivable I have a problem with the jumper settings. There is
something on the order of 15 jumpers on the board and I don't know what they
do as they don't appear to be documented anywhere. I'm thinking that I may
have to set something with these jumpers to get the proper ROM size. I also
identified another spot that looked like it may originally have been for DIP
switches, labeld in the silkscreen as DS-1 and DS-2. DS-1 has both
positions connected with a wire jumper, and DS-2 has no connections at all.
Anyone know what DS-1 and DS-2 do on a System 11 board?

Has anyone else upgraded a system 9 pin with a system 11 board and seen
similar problems with the sound?

Any help on this appreciated. I am probably very close to restoring full
functionality to my space shuttle game, but I'm a bit frustrated with the
audio debug right now... I hate to just start randomly desoldering and
replacing things like the audio op-amps if I have a simple setting
incorrect..

Thanks,

Scott
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 22, 2005 9:01:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

errrr...... you can use a system 11 board in system 9???? Didn't know
that..... I know they are similar but didn't know they were that
similar.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 23, 2005 4:10:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I think I was the guy who first mentioned it hare and documented the procedure how
to copy the rom images. I later ran into the same incompatibility. It worked with
some System 11 boards but not with others. Check Jumper W9 and W8. The sound reset
in a System 11 board is controlled by the main cpu. It toogles a PIA output. Not
so with System 9. If you remove W8 and set W9 your sound should work ok. I never
tried this so please let us here know if it works. I am quite sure this is the
only change needed but I never checked it out.

Btw. this fix might also be needed with Grand Lizard.

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:54:07 GMT, Scott_SS wrote:

>>Greetings fellow pinheads. :-)
>>
>>I have recently been trying to "fix" my Space Shuttle. The background:
>>After playing the game reliably during a gathering at my house, the next
>>time I turned it on it immediately started resetting (typically, before the
>>ball even got ejected into the shooter lane). I tried all of the typical
>>power supply fixes (winding up with essentially a new power supply in the
>>end). Sometime early in the power supply debug, the sound also stopped
>>working.
>>
>>None of this fixing of the power supply really worked out, so I wound up
>>purchasing another power supply and a system 11 board (along with System 11
>>versions of Space Shuttle ROMs) off eBay. After plugging in the new boards
>>I found that I still had the same problems. I tracked at least one problem
>>down to a short in the playfield (which in itself is weird, since one time
>>it worked, the next time it didn't, no real opportunity of fiddling with
>>anything to cause the short).
>>
>>The game now plays fine as a system 11, but I have no audio (at all, no
>>background, no voice, nothing). The system 11 board came to me as "verified
>>working," but since I purchased it from another collector, I don't really
>>know the audio worked before it got to me. I can verify that the amp and
>>connection to the speakers is good, as increasing the volume pot lets me
>>"hear" the lights during attract mode (famous audio crosstalk problem of
>>system 11 and system 9 pins). The board being used is a system 11, revision
>>B (that is to say: A plain old System 11, not System 11A, B or C, but
>>System 11 with the 7 segment LED display, board revision B).
>>
>>I think its conceivable I have a problem with the jumper settings. There is
>>something on the order of 15 jumpers on the board and I don't know what they
>>do as they don't appear to be documented anywhere. I'm thinking that I may
>>have to set something with these jumpers to get the proper ROM size. I also
>>identified another spot that looked like it may originally have been for DIP
>>switches, labeld in the silkscreen as DS-1 and DS-2. DS-1 has both
>>positions connected with a wire jumper, and DS-2 has no connections at all.
>>Anyone know what DS-1 and DS-2 do on a System 11 board?
>>
>>Has anyone else upgraded a system 9 pin with a system 11 board and seen
>>similar problems with the sound?
>>
>>Any help on this appreciated. I am probably very close to restoring full
>>functionality to my space shuttle game, but I'm a bit frustrated with the
>>audio debug right now... I hate to just start randomly desoldering and
>>replacing things like the audio op-amps if I have a simple setting
>>incorrect..
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Scott
>>
>>


Regards
Frank-Rainer Grahl
(frgrahl@REMOVE.ME.gmx.net)
Related resources
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 23, 2005 7:16:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Hi Frank,

Thanks for the reply. Clearly you understand the issue so perhaps you can
still help me get this audio problem licked.

In sort of an ironic move based on what you know about the function of the
PIA output from the main CPU, I actually moved a jumper *FROM* W9 over to W8
a few nights ago since that seemed to be the most normal setting based on
the rather limited documentation I could get from the game manuals for the
original System 11 games (I had a look at High Speed, Grand Lizard and Road
Kings to see if I could figure something out). I'll move it back, since the
sound didn't work with the jumper on W8 either. It does appear though, that
my problem isn't with W9 because I didn't have sound before I moved the
jumper either...

Do you have any other ideas, or perhaps know what the other jumpers do? I'd
be happy to gather up the state of the current jumper settings if it would
help.

The basic state of the machine right now is that the game play is perfect,
there is just no sound, so I'm guessing that if there is a jumper problem,
its affecting the Audio CPU only..

Do you still have your System 9 machine running on a System 11 board? Maybe
we can compare jumpers and the state of DS1/DS2 to find out if my setup is
different.

Thanks again for the idea with W9/W8. I appreciate any help right now..

Scott

"Frank-Rainer Grahl" <frgrahl@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:setenuytzkarg.ik2bl10.pminews@News.individual.de...
>I think I was the guy who first mentioned it hare and documented the
>procedure how
> to copy the rom images. I later ran into the same incompatibility. It
> worked with
> some System 11 boards but not with others. Check Jumper W9 and W8. The
> sound reset
> in a System 11 board is controlled by the main cpu. It toogles a PIA
> output. Not
> so with System 9. If you remove W8 and set W9 your sound should work ok. I
> never
> tried this so please let us here know if it works. I am quite sure this is
> the
> only change needed but I never checked it out.
>
> Btw. this fix might also be needed with Grand Lizard.
>
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:54:07 GMT, Scott_SS wrote:
>
>>>Greetings fellow pinheads. :-)
>>>
>>>I have recently been trying to "fix" my Space Shuttle. The background:
>>>After playing the game reliably during a gathering at my house, the next
>>>time I turned it on it immediately started resetting (typically, before
>>>the
>>>ball even got ejected into the shooter lane). I tried all of the typical
>>>power supply fixes (winding up with essentially a new power supply in the
>>>end). Sometime early in the power supply debug, the sound also stopped
>>>working.
>>>
>>>None of this fixing of the power supply really worked out, so I wound up
>>>purchasing another power supply and a system 11 board (along with System
>>>11
>>>versions of Space Shuttle ROMs) off eBay. After plugging in the new
>>>boards
>>>I found that I still had the same problems. I tracked at least one
>>>problem
>>>down to a short in the playfield (which in itself is weird, since one
>>>time
>>>it worked, the next time it didn't, no real opportunity of fiddling with
>>>anything to cause the short).
>>>
>>>The game now plays fine as a system 11, but I have no audio (at all, no
>>>background, no voice, nothing). The system 11 board came to me as
>>>"verified
>>>working," but since I purchased it from another collector, I don't really
>>>know the audio worked before it got to me. I can verify that the amp and
>>>connection to the speakers is good, as increasing the volume pot lets me
>>>"hear" the lights during attract mode (famous audio crosstalk problem of
>>>system 11 and system 9 pins). The board being used is a system 11,
>>>revision
>>>B (that is to say: A plain old System 11, not System 11A, B or C, but
>>>System 11 with the 7 segment LED display, board revision B).
>>>
>>>I think its conceivable I have a problem with the jumper settings. There
>>>is
>>>something on the order of 15 jumpers on the board and I don't know what
>>>they
>>>do as they don't appear to be documented anywhere. I'm thinking that I
>>>may
>>>have to set something with these jumpers to get the proper ROM size. I
>>>also
>>>identified another spot that looked like it may originally have been for
>>>DIP
>>>switches, labeld in the silkscreen as DS-1 and DS-2. DS-1 has both
>>>positions connected with a wire jumper, and DS-2 has no connections at
>>>all.
>>>Anyone know what DS-1 and DS-2 do on a System 11 board?
>>>
>>>Has anyone else upgraded a system 9 pin with a system 11 board and seen
>>>similar problems with the sound?
>>>
>>>Any help on this appreciated. I am probably very close to restoring full
>>>functionality to my space shuttle game, but I'm a bit frustrated with the
>>>audio debug right now... I hate to just start randomly desoldering and
>>>replacing things like the audio op-amps if I have a simple setting
>>>incorrect..
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Scott
>>>
>>>
>
>
> Regards
> Frank-Rainer Grahl
> (frgrahl@REMOVE.ME.gmx.net)
>
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 23, 2005 6:17:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Scott

>>In sort of an ironic move based on what you know about the function of the
>>PIA output from the main CPU, I actually moved a jumper *FROM* W9 over to W8
>>a few nights ago since that seemed to be the most normal setting based on
>>the rather limited documentation I could get from the game manuals for the
>>original System 11 games (I had a look at High Speed, Grand Lizard and Road
>>Kings to see if I could figure something out). I'll move it back, since the
>>sound didn't work with the jumper on W8 either.

I just verified the images on Marvins site to mine. They are ok (I think they even
came from me but i didn't check my old mails for this).

I burned them and tried them in a Pin Bot 11A cpu. W8 definitly has to be removed
and W9 put instead in. If you do not do this the sound will usually only work by
temporarily grounding the reset pin of the 6802 sound cpu after power up.

>>my problem isn't with W9 because I didn't have sound before I moved the
>>jumper either...

If you do have W9 in do you hear sounds if you press the sound test button? If not
either the System 11 CPU is bad or you have an Eprom issue. Speaker and volume pot
in the cabinet checked?

>>Do you have any other ideas, or perhaps know what the other jumpers do? I'd
>>be happy to gather up the state of the current jumper settings if it would
>>help.

Check first if the sound self test works. I bet it doesn't but if it does I will
need to put my board in a System 9 pin to check it out.

>>Do you still have your System 9 machine running on a System 11 board? Maybe
>>we can compare jumpers and the state of DS1/DS2 to find out if my setup is
>>different.

It wasn't mine but my friend still has it. I used the original CPU and sound rom
rom with the jumper settings documented in the blue WMS System 9 troubleshooting
manual.



Regards
Frank-Rainer Grahl
(frgrahl@REMOVE.ME.gmx.net)
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 28, 2005 4:55:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Thanks for the suggestion Frank,

I have some progress, although I still don't have the final solution (see
below)...


"Frank-Rainer Grahl" <frgrahl@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:setenuytzkarg.ik473u0.pminews@News.individual.de...
> <SNIP!>. If you have a set of other System 11 sound roms you can try them
> to check out
>the sound section. They will work together with the Space Shuttle Rom.
><SNIP!>

I had some 27C256 parts left over from an old 386 motherboard I used ~15
years ago. I burned some sound ROMs for High Speed using the programmer at
work. The board plays sound now!

So I think this leaves me with 3 possibilities.

1) The ROM set I purchased from the seller on eBay was bad. This would be
ok, since I can erase and reprogram them myself (I just didn't have any
27C128 parts, so I figured it was easier just to buy some pre-burned from
one of the people selling ROMs online). I'm going to do this tomorrow and
will report back to the group if this was the final solution.

2) The System 11 Space Shuttle images linked in by Marvin's site are bad.
To make sure this isn't a real problem, I'll rebuild the ROMs using Frank's
original instructions and make sure the checksum matches what is in the
archive on Marvin's site.


3) There is truly a jumper setting on the System 11 board that isn't right
for using the Space Shuttle images that Frank originally created. If the
re-burned ROMs don't work, I'll try to burn the images into 27C256's and see
if that solves the problem (although this really seems unlikely).

More info to the group sometime in the next few days!

Scott
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 29, 2005 2:26:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

>>Thanks for the suggestion Frank,
>>
>>I have some progress, although I still don't have the final solution (see
>>below)...
>>
>>
>>"Frank-Rainer Grahl" <frgrahl@gmx.net> wrote in message
>>news:setenuytzkarg.ik473u0.pminews@News.individual.de...
>>> <SNIP!>. If you have a set of other System 11 sound roms you can try them
>>> to check out
>>>the sound section. They will work together with the Space Shuttle Rom.
>>><SNIP!>
>>
>>I had some 27C256 parts left over from an old 386 motherboard I used ~15
>>years ago. I burned some sound ROMs for High Speed using the programmer at
>>work. The board plays sound now!

Then it looks that your sound roms are defective. You can double the 27C128 images
and also brun them into a 27(C)256. Not a problem.

>>2) The System 11 Space Shuttle images linked in by Marvin's site are bad.
>>To make sure this isn't a real problem, I'll rebuild the ROMs using Frank's
>>original instructions and make sure the checksum matches what is in the
>>archive on Marvin's site.

I checked them. They worked for me. Maybe they are mislabled and U21 is really U22
and vice versa.

>>3) There is truly a jumper setting on the System 11 board that isn't right
>>for using the Space Shuttle images that Frank originally created. If the
>>re-burned ROMs don't work, I'll try to burn the images into 27C256's and see
>>if that solves the problem (although this really seems unlikely).

Doubt it but we wiil see what happens with new roms.

>>More info to the group sometime in the next few days!

Regards
Frank-Rainer Grahl
(frgrahl@REMOVE.ME.gmx.net)
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
July 29, 2005 2:26:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I'm glad it turned out to be easy (and thanks for actually trying a set of
ROMs in your board as well, as you indicated below).

I burned a new set of 27128's using the programmer at my work earlier today
and popped them into the machine when I got home. Sound is working normally
now, so apparently I just received ROMs with a bad image from the person I
purchased them from originally.

Thanks for the help Frank!

Scott

"Frank-Rainer Grahl" <frgrahl@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:setenuytzkarg.ikdary0.pminews@News.individual.de...
>>>Thanks for the suggestion Frank,
>>>
>>>I have some progress, although I still don't have the final solution (see
>>>below)...
>>>
>>>
>>>"Frank-Rainer Grahl" <frgrahl@gmx.net> wrote in message
>>>news:setenuytzkarg.ik473u0.pminews@News.individual.de...
>>>> <SNIP!>. If you have a set of other System 11 sound roms you can try
>>>> them
>>>> to check out
>>>>the sound section. They will work together with the Space Shuttle Rom.
>>>><SNIP!>
>>>
>>>I had some 27C256 parts left over from an old 386 motherboard I used ~15
>>>years ago. I burned some sound ROMs for High Speed using the programmer
>>>at
>>>work. The board plays sound now!
>
> Then it looks that your sound roms are defective. You can double the
> 27C128 images
> and also brun them into a 27(C)256. Not a problem.
>
>>>2) The System 11 Space Shuttle images linked in by Marvin's site are bad.
>>>To make sure this isn't a real problem, I'll rebuild the ROMs using
>>>Frank's
>>>original instructions and make sure the checksum matches what is in the
>>>archive on Marvin's site.
>
> I checked them. They worked for me. Maybe they are mislabled and U21 is
> really U22
> and vice versa.
>
>>>3) There is truly a jumper setting on the System 11 board that isn't
>>>right
>>>for using the Space Shuttle images that Frank originally created. If the
>>>re-burned ROMs don't work, I'll try to burn the images into 27C256's and
>>>see
>>>if that solves the problem (although this really seems unlikely).
>
> Doubt it but we wiil see what happens with new roms.
>
>>>More info to the group sometime in the next few days!
>
> Regards
> Frank-Rainer Grahl
> (frgrahl@REMOVE.ME.gmx.net)
>
>
!