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Lithium Batteries? Good or Bad? Here's the answer!

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Anonymous
July 22, 2005 9:38:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Over 5 years ago, we began replacing ALL pinball machines (and some video
games too) using either the single Ni-Cad or three AA Alkalines. Using the
Ni-Cad required putting in a blocking diode of course. We have used the
size thats half of an AA battery, soldering them in on Gottlieb and old
Bally/Stern logics, and on Williams and Stern/Data East, pressing the stiff
wires of the lithium into a 1 pin connector and soldering the matching pin
on the logic, allowing the battery to be removed (to clear the memory
faster).
We have used well over 1500 of them, perhaps many more (we order them 50 at
a time from Competitive, Penn Ray, and now a battery dealer who's right next
door to me).
So far, we have had about 20 of them go dead what I consider prematurely, we
have had several go dead within an hour, and we had two BLOW UP...and they
were installed correctly. One burned a hole in the carpet in front of the
game. We do not know why they blew up either, but it was almost immediately
after the game was powered up--both were Williams games which had a good
diode in them too.
In my opinion, the ratio is good and we will continue using them. Also, we
have detected no leakage at all so far--and we expect little or none from
Lithium. I also told AlTech that we use them and his latest revision of the
Bally/Stern board now allows you to use the disc lithium, the lithium with
the two leads, or (the dumb way) the AA batteries. Let's see--lithium
battery $3--expected life 9 years....3 AA Alkaline Batteries $3 every 2
years and a chance of ruing the board.
Hope this helps some people make a decision! Todd from TNT Amusements

More about : lithium batteries good bad answer

Anonymous
July 22, 2005 9:38:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Well, I agree that 2 out of 1500 is not a horrible ratio, but
personally I prefer *explosion* odds to be 0 out of 1500 when being
installed in rare collectible games. I'll take my changes with my AA
Duracells. Never seen one of *them* explode.
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 9:38:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Yes, I'd say the answer is still no. Only the games that
use them originally should do so. _No_ fires for me is fine.

The other acceptable replacements are magnetic RAM
for those that can use them, and the "memory cap" mod
for those that can use them. (Although I don't use this myself.)

Removing rechargable batteries and installing remote holders
with blocking diodes is still the preferred "mod" for me. In fact
remote battery holders for ALL board mounted holders and
rechargables is the ONLY way for me!

ANY risk or danger is too much for me. Sorry I don't agree on
this one, Todd. ;) 

--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************




"TNT Amusements" <tntquality@aol.com> wrote in message news:QD%De.26429$IJ1.22646@trnddc02...

> the two leads, or (the dumb way) the AA batteries. Let's see--lithium
> battery $3--expected life 9 years....3 AA Alkaline Batteries $3 every 2
> years and a chance of ruing the board.
> Hope this helps some people make a decision! Todd from TNT Amusements
>
>
Related resources
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 9:38:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I'm sure Todd is thinking in terms of his buyers who have no clue about
batteries and replacing them. I like AA with the blocking diode
myself. It's not worth cleaning up a (possible) mess from lithium.
He's thinking in terms of owners that don't replace the batteries and
call him screaming that he ripped them off and wanting a free service
call because the AAs went dead.
July 22, 2005 10:15:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Stick with Duracells, Chris, good choice. Best batteries for pinball. I
mean, come on people, how hard or "technical is to replace 3 frigin' AA
batteries every few years? 0 explosions and no carpet burns is nice too.

Adi
www.txpinball.com

"Chris Lyon" <ltcmdrobvious@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122011448.805747.271500@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Well, I agree that 2 out of 1500 is not a horrible ratio, but
> personally I prefer *explosion* odds to be 0 out of 1500 when being
> installed in rare collectible games. I'll take my changes with my AA
> Duracells. Never seen one of *them* explode.
>
July 22, 2005 11:07:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Besides - $3 every two years? No way, not even close - I have had standard
AA's last as long as four years and NEVER leak. This is bad math - and I
can't believe you'd accept a ratio where 2 of 1500 exploded. It's like you
started an argument AGAINST lithiums and then suddenly switched gears...

Chris

<adi@txpinball.com> wrote in message
news:V90Ee.1943$Ok6.783@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
> Stick with Duracells, Chris, good choice. Best batteries for pinball. I
> mean, come on people, how hard or "technical is to replace 3 frigin' AA
> batteries every few years? 0 explosions and no carpet burns is nice too.
>
> Adi
> www.txpinball.com
>
> "Chris Lyon" <ltcmdrobvious@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1122011448.805747.271500@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> Well, I agree that 2 out of 1500 is not a horrible ratio, but
>> personally I prefer *explosion* odds to be 0 out of 1500 when being
>> installed in rare collectible games. I'll take my changes with my AA
>> Duracells. Never seen one of *them* explode.
>>
>
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 1:44:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I'll take my $4 1.5 farad memory cap any day over any kind of
battery, lithium included. NO chance of leakage. NO chance of
explosion. And it should last for over well 10 years before it may
need replacing. Just have to turn the game on once every 6 months to
be sure the high score settings hold.


DR

pinballdoctor.com
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 2:07:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Oyvind Moll wrote:
> "Chris" <munsonjulieNOSPAM@sbcglobal.net> writes:
> >
> > and I can't believe you'd accept a ratio where 2 of 1500 exploded.
>
> Well, they _are_ called "TNT Amusements"...
>
> Sorry, Todd :) 

Definitely gives new meaning to the lyrics, "click... click... *BOOM!*"
:) 
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 2:09:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Oh, I don't doubt what you're saying is true, but
I'll still choose remote mount, or nothing at all
before I'd go this route. (5%'er!) ;) 

I'd rather just replace the batteries than add to
the already inherent danger of placing one of these
machines in my house. Nothing is guaranteed safe
to begin with.

I guess if customers can't replace batteries, or can't
afford someone to do it for them, then they shouldn't be
buying these things. I have no sympathy for them if they
were educated about this when they made the purchase.

Gottlieb designed their system to work with the
lithium cell, so I have little problem with that.
So are modern pc's. (And PB2K machines).

Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
============================================

TNT Amusements wrote:
> We have sold well over 13,000 machines mostly into the home market now (this
> includes foosball tables, pool tables, & air hockeys which are still arcade
> related) since 1984. No matter what you tell the customer about the
> batteries in their game (check them every 2 years, etc.etc.), 99% of them do
> not hear you and 5 years, 8 years, 12 years later, are screaming when they
> find their crusty leaking batteries have ruined their logic board--they
> think a $50 repair is outrageous, let alone the cost of a major battery
> cleanup on a system 11 Williams board. This applies to ALL the pins we see
> from all dealers too. Batteries will continue to be a major issue. The
> remote battery holder is employed by the 5% of collectors out there. Our
> solution was based and centered on where MOST of arcade video and pinballs
> machines end up...in a family game room where the bare minimum of
> maintainence will ever be done by the owners. Lithiums were selected by
> Gottlieb in 1990 with their System 3...None of them has leaked, and only
> recently are they dying.
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 2:31:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

>Just have to turn the game on once every 6 months to
>be sure the high score settings hold.

And on a related note, if you don't turn your machines on for 6 months
at a time, you really should remove any batteries anyway, and unplug
them.
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 2:37:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Can I get an AMEN?!

Yes, DO remove them, or you will be replacing
stuff later!

(Don't ask me how *I* learned....)

Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
=================================

seymour-shabow@excite.com wrote:

> And on a related note, if you don't turn your machines on for 6 months
> at a time, you really should remove any batteries anyway, and unplug
> them.
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 2:38:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

"Chris" <munsonjulieNOSPAM@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
> and I can't believe you'd accept a ratio where 2 of 1500 exploded.

Well, they _are_ called "TNT Amusements"...


Sorry, Todd :) 

--
Oyvind Moll
<oyvind@moll.no>
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 2:40:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

>And on a related note, if you don't turn your machines on for 6 months
>at a time, you really should remove any batteries anyway, and unplug
>them.

.....and why would that be?

I can see unplugging them if you are worried about lighting storms, but
take out the AA bats? That is a little too much doom and gloom for me.

You would have to go a good 2-3 years before I was worried about AA
bats leaking.

Kirb
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 2:52:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Unplugging them because you're still taking mini spikes and surges all
the time (unless you have them on breakers/switches that you turn off
completely).... why wear out the MOVs earlier than needed?

Batteries because if the machine's not on, you've got a continuous
drain on the batteries, but mainly because if there IS a problem, you
won't find it out until after the 6 month period, when there may have
been a lot of damage caused.

Really, anyone that has pins set up that don't play them even once for
6 months shouldn't own them.... put them into storage.
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 2:59:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

>Unplugging them because you're still taking mini spikes and surges all
>the time (unless you have them on breakers/switches that you turn off
>completely).... why wear out the MOVs earlier than needed?

Breakers and switches don't remove the neutral- still can zap your
stuff....trust me there.
Why don't I unplug mine? PITA, and I have a whole house surge protector
(everyone should have one).

>Batteries because if the machine's not on, you've got a continuous
>drain on the batteries, but mainly because if there IS a problem, you
>won't find it out until after the 6 month period, when there may have
>been a lot of damage caused.

Risk of damage is very slim when you are using GOOD batts. I only
remove the batts if the game is being broken down. Ones set up never
get the batts removed unless changing them.

>Really, anyone that has pins set up that don't play them even once for
>6 months shouldn't own them.... put them into storage.

Thanks for telling us how to live. You say to put them in storage if we
don't play them? I don't get your point. Are we not supposed to own
them or are we supposed to store them away so no one can play them?

Some of us have better things to do in the summer and sometimes a game
doesn't get play in 6 mo. I don't lose one ounce of sleep over leaking
batteries. You shouldn't either, but feel free to do so if you must.

Kirb
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 3:14:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I'll say a silent prayer for your long
unattended games.

(Someday, you will believe....)

Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
=======================================

kirb wrote:

> Some of us have better things to do in the summer and sometimes a game
> doesn't get play in 6 mo. I don't lose one ounce of sleep over leaking
> batteries. You shouldn't either, but feel free to do so if you must.
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 3:23:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Not telling anyone how to live, do I have to pull a Gary and put "my
opinions" on my posts? To put it another way, if you have time to
post to RGP for 12 months in the year, you have time to play a couple
of games of pin. Just saying that normal everyday living would include
pinball playing at least once a week - even if it's only 5 minutes.
You can put your pins in storage, not play them, play them, etc. feel
free. I think it would be kind of a waste, but that's my opinion.
Obviously, in most cases especially with a lot of machines, you're not
going to *know* 6 months in advance that you aren't going to play that
particular machine so you wouldn't know to remove the batteries. But
if you knew you were going to be out of the country for instance
stationed overseas in the military for 6 months, would you remove the
batteries then? I would. Maybe you wouldn't.

House surge protector is a good idea going to put one in when I get the
panel replaced.
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 3:29:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

>I'll say a silent prayer for your long unattended games.
>(Someday, you will believe....)

if you are talking about leaking batts, save your prayers. I change my
batteries every 1-1.5 years...with good ones (not those freebie menards
specials)

Kirb
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 3:34:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Fred, what's your battery story you're alluding to? Also - what about
those AA lithium batteries you can get now? That'd be just as bad as
the solder replacement ones wouldn't it on the games that need the
blocking diode?
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 3:39:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

>Just saying that normal everyday living would include
>pinball playing at least once a week - even if it's only 5 minutes.

Once a week x 6 months = 24 games. If a different game every week you
would have games sitting unused for 6 months. I don't, but read
below...

I tend to play the heck out of a game for quite some time (current
frustration- F-14). This lays out the shots and gets me "into the
game". I tend to ignore some titles for quite some time while I try to
master the one game that I focus on. I am the only one I know of that
does this.

With the parties I have had as of late all working games get a workout.
I haven't played some in 6 mo myself, but they have been played. That
has been a new trend since the house is finished.

>You can put your pins in storage, not play them, play them, etc. feel
>free. I think it would be kind of a waste, but that's my opinion.

Not a waste when you spent your time buying, restoring, and playing.
The pinballs become a fixture in the gameroom that would only be filled
with a big hole. Sooner or later that game will fall into my "game of
choice- for the moment", but it may be awhile. Others can enjoy it
while I am pulling my hair out on another game.

>Obviously, in most cases especially with a lot of machines, you're not
>going to *know* 6 months in advance that you aren't going to play that
>particular machine so you wouldn't know to remove the batteries.

Why would you care if you change them with good batts every 1-1.5
years? You are not going to get a leak if you buy decent batteries. The
used ones then power my shop flashlight...for awhile.

>But if you knew you were going to be out of the country for instance
>stationed overseas in the military for 6 months, would you remove the
>batteries then? I would. Maybe you wouldn't.

I don't have that problem. I also have high scores that I will NOT
lose. Some of them took forever to obtain, so they are going to get
fresh batts to save them. I don't pull my hair out over things that
will never happen (when you look at how MUCH power is being drained,
you would be far less worried).

Kirb
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 3:43:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I do the same thing (focus - obsess really) on one title for a while.
The goal right now is to get the gameroom wired and set up anyway. I'm
just cranky because I CAN'T play pin now except on locations)

I wrote down all the high scores before the pins went into storage so I
know what to aim for.
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 8:21:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

That's the way I read it too.

bogart
www.pinrestore.com

seymour-shabow@excite.com wrote:
> I'm sure Todd is thinking in terms of his buyers who have no clue about
> batteries and replacing them. I like AA with the blocking diode
> myself. It's not worth cleaning up a (possible) mess from lithium.
> He's thinking in terms of owners that don't replace the batteries and
> call him screaming that he ripped them off and wanting a free service
> call because the AAs went dead.
>
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 8:31:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

We have sold well over 13,000 machines mostly into the home market now (this
includes foosball tables, pool tables, & air hockeys which are still arcade
related) since 1984. No matter what you tell the customer about the
batteries in their game (check them every 2 years, etc.etc.), 99% of them do
not hear you and 5 years, 8 years, 12 years later, are screaming when they
find their crusty leaking batteries have ruined their logic board--they
think a $50 repair is outrageous, let alone the cost of a major battery
cleanup on a system 11 Williams board. This applies to ALL the pins we see
from all dealers too. Batteries will continue to be a major issue. The
remote battery holder is employed by the 5% of collectors out there. Our
solution was based and centered on where MOST of arcade video and pinballs
machines end up...in a family game room where the bare minimum of
maintainence will ever be done by the owners. Lithiums were selected by
Gottlieb in 1990 with their System 3...None of them has leaked, and only
recently are they dying.
July 23, 2005 2:01:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I have blown up Duracells, but they don't catch fire.

High drain lithiums are full of flammable liquid and self-igniting
stuff. Once opened, they can burn. I have set fire to wastebaskets this
way.

If they do catch fire without being physically abused, it could be a
bad blocking diode. Charging a primary lithium cell is a big no-no.

Low-drain lithiums are safe. That is what should be used.
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 10:02:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I've been thinking about this for some time. Anyone know about these
enought to recommend a particular brand/model? What about size/rating?
I would definately protect the hot, neutral, and ground (3-line
protection?). Anything else to know or consider?

kirb wrote:
> >Unplugging them because you're still taking mini spikes and surges all
> >the time (unless you have them on breakers/switches that you turn off
> >completely).... why wear out the MOVs earlier than needed?
>
> Breakers and switches don't remove the neutral- still can zap your
> stuff....trust me there.
> Why don't I unplug mine? PITA, and I have a whole house surge protector
> (everyone should have one).
>
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 10:59:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I want to provide additional protection to the whole house - pins,
computers, AV, home automation, etc. I have a 40 breaker panel, not
sure what the main is (maybe 200A?). I've never heard of a meter surge
suppressor, but if they are just as good, then the sooner the
protection starts the better.

Do they make reasonable priced whole house UPSes?

I might also have a generator switch thing put in - just in case I need
to have pin party during a power outage :-) or power the sump, fridge,
etc.

Flyinwalenda wrote:
> You need to determine what you want protected. Gameroom, computer,
> kitchen, entire house. Determine the total draw/load and size it
> accordingly. I have installed the "breaker" types for individual outlets
> in commercial and residential buildings and they work OK. There are also
> types that mount inside the meter box for entire panel protection. This
> craze seems to be fueled by the new "smart" devices being installed in
> homes to control hvac, lighting, appliances, etc.. Leviton, Pamanax are
> a few of the manufactures of panel and meter surge protectors.
> They work, but if your in an area with bad power and really want to
> protect games, computer, tv, etc. , in my opinion install a UPS system
> for those areas. More costly but you will always have clean power.
>
> Brian Ray
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 1:35:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Pinfatuated wrote:

> I've been thinking about this for some time. Anyone know about these
> enought to recommend a particular brand/model? What about size/rating?
> I would definately protect the hot, neutral, and ground (3-line
> protection?). Anything else to know or consider?
>
> kirb wrote:
>
>>>Unplugging them because you're still taking mini spikes and surges all
>>>the time (unless you have them on breakers/switches that you turn off
>>>completely).... why wear out the MOVs earlier than needed?
>>
>>Breakers and switches don't remove the neutral- still can zap your
>>stuff....trust me there.
>>Why don't I unplug mine? PITA, and I have a whole house surge protector
>>(everyone should have one).
>>
>
>
You need to determine what you want protected. Gameroom, computer,
kitchen, entire house. Determine the total draw/load and size it
accordingly. I have installed the "breaker" types for individual outlets
in commercial and residential buildings and they work OK. There are also
types that mount inside the meter box for entire panel protection. This
craze seems to be fueled by the new "smart" devices being installed in
homes to control hvac, lighting, appliances, etc.. Leviton, Pamanax are
a few of the manufactures of panel and meter surge protectors.
They work, but if your in an area with bad power and really want to
protect games, computer, tv, etc. , in my opinion install a UPS system
for those areas. More costly but you will always have clean power.

Brian Ray
July 23, 2005 3:11:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I got an "Intermatic Panelguard" whole house surge protector. It is a
small box about 4x5x6 inches. It wires into two consecutive breakers
in your panel thus going across 240. It is rated for up to a 400 amp
home service (mine is 160). One thing about protectors is the further
upstream you put them from the electronics the better they work. I
only paid about $60 (through an electrician friend of mine) for the box
itself and it is easy to install. Please get an electrician if you are
at all unsure of your ability.

I also put surge strips at all of my pins and other electronics. Look
for at least 2000 joules of supression - especially if you live in
Florida like me.

I have a generator too, but then again I spent 24 days last year
without power!! Frappin' hurricanes!! Pinball machines run fine on my
generator along with a huge window A/C and my refrigerator.

John
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 4:49:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

One possibility - check with your local power company. Some of these
companies provide whole house surge protection but they charge you a fee --
something like $7 per month. They then supposedly guarantee to replace
anything that gets damaged by surges thru power line.

-- Ed


"Pinfatuated" <new2pin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1122127174.451461.244750@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>I want to provide additional protection to the whole house - pins,
> computers, AV, home automation, etc. I have a 40 breaker panel, not
> sure what the main is (maybe 200A?). I've never heard of a meter surge
> suppressor, but if they are just as good, then the sooner the
> protection starts the better.
>
> Do they make reasonable priced whole house UPSes?
>
> I might also have a generator switch thing put in - just in case I need
> to have pin party during a power outage :-) or power the sump, fridge,
> etc.
>
> Flyinwalenda wrote:
>> You need to determine what you want protected. Gameroom, computer,
>> kitchen, entire house. Determine the total draw/load and size it
>> accordingly. I have installed the "breaker" types for individual outlets
>> in commercial and residential buildings and they work OK. There are also
>> types that mount inside the meter box for entire panel protection. This
>> craze seems to be fueled by the new "smart" devices being installed in
>> homes to control hvac, lighting, appliances, etc.. Leviton, Pamanax are
>> a few of the manufactures of panel and meter surge protectors.
>> They work, but if your in an area with bad power and really want to
>> protect games, computer, tv, etc. , in my opinion install a UPS system
>> for those areas. More costly but you will always have clean power.
>>
>> Brian Ray
>
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 6:04:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

The Leviton 51110-PTC and 51120-PTC are good whole-house units. They also
provide protection for incoming cable and phone connections. PanaMax is also
well-known, but I personally shy away from them due to their policies of not
honoring their product warranties for product sold from "unauthorized"
Internet dealers. If they built it and you bought it, they should honor the
warrant.

You should still consider point-of-use surge protective devices as well. Most
of the whole-house units that are sold have "white appliance" connected
equipment warranties; they'll cover generic household stuff, but don't cover
stuff such as computers, home theater equipment, etc.

You may also wish to consider use of "series-mode" point-of-use surge
protective devices for home theater equipment. Unlike the MOV-based units,
the series mode units base their protection on series inductors and shunt
capacitors, and are able to absorb "essentially unlimited" surges without
degradation.

Joseph "Tony" Dziedzic

In article <1122123755.930518.245430@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Pinfatuated" <new2pin@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I've been thinking about this for some time. Anyone know about these
>enought to recommend a particular brand/model? What about size/rating?
> I would definately protect the hot, neutral, and ground (3-line
>protection?). Anything else to know or consider?
>
>kirb wrote:
>> >Unplugging them because you're still taking mini spikes and surges all
>> >the time (unless you have them on breakers/switches that you turn off
>> >completely).... why wear out the MOVs earlier than needed?
>>
>> Breakers and switches don't remove the neutral- still can zap your
>> stuff....trust me there.
>> Why don't I unplug mine? PITA, and I have a whole house surge protector
>> (everyone should have one).
>>
>
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 6:04:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:04:39 GMT, tonydz@comcast.net (Joseph A. 'Tony'
Dziedzic) wrote:

>The Leviton 51110-PTC and 51120-PTC are good whole-house units. They also
>provide protection for incoming cable and phone connections. PanaMax is also
>well-known, but I personally shy away from them due to their policies of not
>honoring their product warranties for product sold from "unauthorized"
>Internet dealers. If they built it and you bought it, they should honor the
>warrant.

We have four of the Leviton units, one on each panel and sub-panel.
Might be overkill but in five years living on top of a mountain we've
never had any damage. We also use point-of-use protection on the more
sensitive equipment, but I don't count pinball machines in that
category.
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 9:02:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Your replies are not based upon what a protector does. Step
back first. Protection is not a protector. They are separate
components of a protection 'system'. Protection is earth
ground - not some $7 per month device from the electric
company. Protection is defined by the quality of that single
point earth ground. The only component required in every
protection 'system' is the one critical component - single
point earth ground.

This ground could be as minimal as an eight foot ground rod,
or more effective using Ufer grounds, halo ground, etc. Why
better earthing? Because earthing - not a protector - defines
effectiveness of that 'system'.

We must connect each incoming utility to that protection.
Easy for Cable TV. A ground block (ie sold in Home Depot for
about $2) connected by less than 10 feet of wire to the earth
ground is complete cable protection. Notice no protector
required. But essential is the connecting wire. Less than 10
feet. No sharp bends or splices. Not bundled with other
non-earthing wires. Runs independently until all earthing
wires meet at the single point earth ground.

Telephone already has a 'whole house' protector provided
free by the telco because it is so effective and so
inexpensive. But again, what makes their protector
effective? Follow that gray or green wire from their NID box
to protection - your single point earthing. Now phone line
has sufficient protection. It must be earth at same point as
all other incoming utilities.

Three AC electric wires enter your house. Per post 1990
code, one wire must have a connection to this single point
earthing. That would probably be a 6 AWG bare and solid copper
wire. AGain, no sharp bends, no splices. Even running that
wire up over the foundation and many feet back down to earth
only degrades its transient protection

You cannot earth the other two AC hot wires. And so we
install a 'whole house' protector that will connect each AC
hot wire, less than 10 feet, to earth ground.

The protector was not protection. The protector simply
connects a utility wire to earth ground only during the
transient. Surge protectors don't stop or block surges -
except where myths promote plug-in protectors. Protectors are
simply switches that make temporary earthing connections.
What is the protection? Not the protector. Earth ground is
the protection.

Defined is protection during each transient. Any and every
effective protector shunts a transient AND remain functional.
'Whole house' protector such as Square D, Leviton, Furse,
Intermatic, GE, Polyphaser, Cutler Hammer, and Siemens will
provide at least 1000 joules. Notice these are names of
responsible electrical manufacturers. Not names associated
with ineffective protectors such as PowerMax, Belkin, APC,
Panamx, Tripplite, etc who have poor reputations and grossly
overpriced products - except among myth purveyors that don't
even know what a protector does.

Joules determines a protector's life expectancy. More 'whole
house' protectors will not make the protectors better for one
transient. That better is defined by the quality of
earthing. But more protectors mean more joules - each
protector lasts exponentially longer.

The effectiveness during a transient is defined by earth
ground AND how connections are made to that earth ground.
Protector life expectancy is determined by number of joules.
Any protector that is damaged by a transient was grossly
undersized - undersized well in excess of what any MOV
manufacturer calls acceptable. And yet grossly undersizing
the protector is so profitable to ineffective plug-in
manufacturers.

To be equivalent, a plug-in (point of use) protector must be
3000 joules or greater. Since failure tends to hype sales AND
since plug-in protectors have no earth ground, then most
plug-in protectors are simply undersized. Appliances already
contain any protection that works on the power cord. If a
point of use (plug-in) protector is undersized, the protector
does nothing useful (vaporizes) while the appliance protects
itself. This causes increased protector sales, with less
$0.10 parts inside the protector, and massive profit
increases.

Again, the protector is not protection. Earth ground - what
plug-in protectors don't connect to - provides the protection.

Up top was protection for Cable TV. Why is that necessary
for a pin ball machine? Once permitted inside a building,
then destructive transients find numerous paths to earth
ground. Effective protection means the transient must be
earthed - on every incoming utility line - before transient
can enter a building. Just another reason why plug-in
protectors cannot be effective. It is possible for a cable TV
transient to find a destructive path to earth ground even via
the pin ball machine.

The utility can install a protector behind the meter. Is
that protection? Depends. They don't provide the earthing.
You do. Is your earth ground less than 10 feet, not through
metallic conduit, etc? The quality of your building's earth
ground determines ... Secondary protection. Yes that is what
we have discussed above. Secondary protection. You should
also inspect your Primary protection as demonstrated in
pictures:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

What is primary protection? Earth ground. Notice what point
of use or plug-in protectors must not discuss to promote
excessively profitable sales? Earth ground. No earth ground
- even for a 'whole house' protector - means no effective
protection. In fact, a 'whole house' protector without that
short connection to earth ground is just an ineffective as a
plug-in protector.

A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Pinfatuated wrote:
> I want to provide additional protection to the whole house - pins,
> computers, AV, home automation, etc. I have a 40 breaker panel, not
> sure what the main is (maybe 200A?). I've never heard of a meter surge
> suppressor, but if they are just as good, then the sooner the
> protection starts the better.
>
> Do they make reasonable priced whole house UPSes?
>
> I might also have a generator switch thing put in - just in case I need
> to have pin party during a power outage :-) or power the sump, fridge,
> etc.
Anonymous
July 24, 2005 3:26:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

WTF? I think you went off on a tangent. People here were asking about
'whole house surge suppresion' - not a seminar about grounding. We all know
good grounding is important but there is far more to it than just a good
ground.

I have a 2 x 3200J T&B surge suppression at the entry of my power box. I
don't expect it to stop a direct lightning strike... nor does it claim to.
But it will help when the strike is further away.

My neighbor has a power company surge suppressor for which he pays $7 per
month. It has 2x the dissipation of my suppressor (according to labels).
It's tied right at the power entry next to meter with a solid ground
connection right at the suppressor.

To me, the topic here - 'whole house surge supression' implies that the
suppression is to ground at the point of entry to the house ... where else?


----- Original Message -----
From: "w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.pinball
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: Opinion: Whole House Surge Suppressor


> Your replies are not based upon what a protector does. Step
> back first. Protection is not a protector. They are separate
> components of a protection 'system'. Protection is earth
> ground - not some $7 per month device from the electric
> company.

And their protection does not involve ground? That would sound pretty fool
hardy.

> Protection is defined by the quality of that single
> point earth ground. The only component required in every
> protection 'system' is the one critical component - single
> point earth ground.

Ground IS important but clearly not the only critical component. NOBODY
here said ground wasn't important.

>
> This ground could be as minimal as an eight foot ground rod,
> or more effective using Ufer grounds, halo ground, etc. Why
> better earthing? Because earthing - not a protector - defines
> effectiveness of that 'system'.

Wrong!!!
BOTH define the effectiveness of that 'system'.

A fantastic Earth ground and a 70Joule MOV is worthless. Likewise, a shitty
ground and a 6400Joule surge suppressor is equally worthless.

>
> We must connect each incoming utility to that protection.
> Easy for Cable TV. A ground block (ie sold in Home Depot for
> about $2) connected by less than 10 feet of wire to the earth
> ground is complete cable protection. Notice no protector
> required. But essential is the connecting wire. Less than 10
> feet. No sharp bends or splices. Not bundled with other
> non-earthing wires. Runs independently until all earthing
> wires meet at the single point earth ground.
>
> Telephone already has a 'whole house' protector provided
> free by the telco because it is so effective and so
> inexpensive.

Ever seen a distant lightning strike and hear that telltale 'ding' on your
old style ringer telephone at the same time. Says a lot about how effective
the telco system really is.

> But again, what makes their protector
> effective? Follow that gray or green wire from their NID box
> to protection - your single point earthing. Now phone line
> has sufficient protection. It must be earth at same point as
> all other incoming utilities.
>
> Three AC electric wires enter your house.

Two AC wires -- the two halves of the Edison split phase plus the center tap
(neutral) bonded to ground at the transformer. This Neutral really isn't
technically an AC wire but now I'm nit picking.
Actually there are four wires - two phases, neutral and ground.
OK, you could argue that Neutral and ground are the same. But they ARE ran
as four wires.

> Per post 1990
> code, one wire must have a connection to this single point
> earthing. That would probably be a 6 AWG bare and solid copper
> wire. AGain, no sharp bends, no splices. Even running that
> wire up over the foundation and many feet back down to earth
> only degrades its transient protection
>
> You cannot earth the other two AC hot wires.


Yes! You can! But it's much more fun to sit back and watch somebody else
do it!


> And so we
> install a 'whole house' protector that will connect each AC
> hot wire, less than 10 feet, to earth ground.

Typically, yes. For example, mine is 4.5 ft from suppressor connection to
ground bar.

>
> The protector was not protection.

?

> The protector simply
> connects a utility wire to earth ground only during the
> transient.

But that is exactly what the protector is *supposed* to do!

> Surge protectors don't stop or block surges -
> except where myths promote plug-in protectors. Protectors are
> simply switches that make temporary earthing connections.
> What is the protection? Not the protector. Earth ground is
> the protection.

WTF? An Earth ground by itself is NOTHING. You must have these
'protectors' to provide that path to ground.

>
> Defined is protection during each transient. Any and every
> effective protector shunts a transient AND remain functional.
> 'Whole house' protector such as Square D, Leviton, Furse,
> Intermatic, GE, Polyphaser, Cutler Hammer, and Siemens will
> provide at least 1000 joules. Notice these are names of
> responsible electrical manufacturers.

You forgot T&B.

> Not names associated
> with ineffective protectors such as PowerMax, Belkin, APC,
> Panamx, Tripplite, etc who have poor reputations and grossly
> overpriced products - except among myth purveyors that don't
> even know what a protector does.

Most of these guys listed make power distribution and standby UPS stuff.
True that these won't stop any real surge or any minor surge either but they
look pretty when the burn. Most standby UPS's will never stop a surge and
merely pass it through. A true UPS will stop them but you probably won't
ever find a true UPS in a residence. And if the surge is big enough, it
will take out any UPS - even a true UPS. Some of the bigger UPS equipment
has active power monitoring that will disconnect itself at the onset of a
surge. We installed a 450KW Liebert that advertised itself as doing such.
Would be interesting to test but I sure wouldn't want to be responsible if
it failed!

>
> Joules determines a protector's life expectancy. More 'whole
> house' protectors will not make the protectors better for one
> transient. That better is defined by the quality of
> earthing. But more protectors mean more joules - each
> protector lasts exponentially longer.
>
> The effectiveness during a transient is defined by earth
> ground AND how connections are made to that earth ground.
> Protector life expectancy is determined by number of joules.
> Any protector that is damaged by a transient was grossly
> undersized - undersized well in excess of what any MOV
> manufacturer calls acceptable. And yet grossly undersizing
> the protector is so profitable to ineffective plug-in
> manufacturers.
>
> To be equivalent, a plug-in (point of use) protector must be
> 3000 joules or greater. Since failure tends to hype sales AND
> since plug-in protectors have no earth ground, then most
> plug-in protectors are simply undersized. Appliances already
> contain any protection that works on the power cord. If a
> point of use (plug-in) protector is undersized, the protector
> does nothing useful (vaporizes) while the appliance protects
> itself. This causes increased protector sales, with less
> $0.10 parts inside the protector, and massive profit
> increases.
>
> Again, the protector is not protection. Earth ground - what
> plug-in protectors don't connect to - provides the protection.

Yes, the protector IS the protection. And ground connection is ALWAYS a
crucial -part- of this protection.

>
> Up top was protection for Cable TV. Why is that necessary
> for a pin ball machine?


Again - topic was for "whole house surge suppressor". I would assume a
cable TV protector would be for... a TV, maybe? Or maybe the cable modem?


> Once permitted inside a building,
> then destructive transients find numerous paths to earth
> ground. Effective protection means the transient must be
> earthed - on every incoming utility line - before transient
> can enter a building. Just another reason why plug-in
> protectors cannot be effective. It is possible for a cable TV
> transient to find a destructive path to earth ground even via
> the pin ball machine.
>
> The utility can install a protector behind the meter. Is
> that protection? Depends. They don't provide the earthing.
> You do.

Yes, and every residence is required to have an earth ground. Usually two
if you count the copper cold water connection as well. But, you can't
always rely on the latter.

> Is your earth ground less than 10 feet, not through
> metallic conduit, etc?

Does code anywhere allow grounding through metal conduit?

> The quality of your building's earth
> ground determines ... Secondary protection. Yes that is what
> we have discussed above. Secondary protection. You should
> also inspect your Primary protection as demonstrated in
> pictures:
> http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html


Interesting pix. Typical of what you can find out there. This is why surge
suppresion is important - because of stuff like this.


>
> What is primary protection? Earth ground. Notice what point
> of use or plug-in protectors must not discuss to promote
> excessively profitable sales? Earth ground. No earth ground
> - even for a 'whole house' protector - means no effective
> protection. In fact, a 'whole house' protector without that
> short connection to earth ground is just an ineffective as a
> plug-in protector.
>
> A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Ground AND the protector itself.

>
> Pinfatuated wrote:
>> I want to provide additional protection to the whole house - pins,
>> computers, AV, home automation, etc. I have a 40 breaker panel, not
>> sure what the main is (maybe 200A?). I've never heard of a meter surge
>> suppressor, but if they are just as good, then the sooner the
>> protection starts the better.
>>
>> Do they make reasonable priced whole house UPSes?
>>
>> I might also have a generator switch thing put in - just in case I need
>> to have pin party during a power outage :-) or power the sump, fridge,
>> etc.
Anonymous
July 24, 2005 3:54:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

That guy always shows up when this topic
comes back around.

Pay him no mind... ;) 

--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************




"GPE" <See_my_website_for_email@cox.net> wrote
> WTF? I think you went off on a tangent. People here were asking about
> 'whole house surge suppresion' - not a seminar about grounding. We all know
> good grounding is important but there is far more to it than just a good
> ground.
>
> I have a 2 x 3200J T&B surge suppression at the entry of my power box. I
> don't expect it to stop a direct lightning strike... nor does it claim to.
> But it will help when the strike is further away.
>
> My neighbor has a power company surge suppressor for which he pays $7 per
> month. It has 2x the dissipation of my suppressor (according to labels).
> It's tied right at the power entry next to meter with a solid ground
> connection right at the suppressor.
>
> To me, the topic here - 'whole house surge supression' implies that the
> suppression is to ground at the point of entry to the house ... where else?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.games.pinball
> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 4:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Opinion: Whole House Surge Suppressor
>
>
> > Your replies are not based upon what a protector does. Step
> > back first. Protection is not a protector. They are separate
> > components of a protection 'system'. Protection is earth
> > ground - not some $7 per month device from the electric
> > company.
>
Anonymous
July 24, 2005 1:48:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

>To me, the topic here - 'whole house surge supression' implies that the
>suppression is to ground at the point of entry to the house ... where else?

This guy always trolls for this topic. His long winded point is that
you need a good earth ground at the panel point. The whole house
protection works best with that.

I'm sure he will respond with a bunch of tripe, but that this the
basics.

Kirb
Anonymous
July 24, 2005 5:45:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

For someone so into Grounding, he sure is not.

John!

Fred Kemper wrote:
> That guy always shows up when this topic
> comes back around.
>
> Pay him no mind... ;) 
>
> --
> Fred
> TX
> CARGPB#8
> ******************
>
>
>
>
>
!