Strange TZ flipper problem

[Mike]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Hi, I am a long time reader, but have not posted much.

I am having a problem with my TZ flippers and I hope someone can help.

They work fine until the machine warms up. Then, both upper flippers
get very weak. The lower flippers seem to get weaker too, but it is
hard to tell. Both upper flippers get extremely weak. This is very
simillar to what is described in Clay's WPC fix guides.

The strange thing is this: When in play, I can flip and hold all
flippers. When I enter the flipper diagnostics, the hold test does not
work on any of the flippers. You can tell it is trying to hold, but
can not get the flipper up. Even stranger, the actual flip test works
fine for all flippers weahter the machine has warmed up or not.

Here is what I have tried:

cleaning the fipper Optos, no change.
Rebuilt the two left flippers, no change.
resolder all contacts on both flipper opto boards, no change.

I have a feeling I am looking at circuit board tests and repairs. Can
anyone tell me where to start?

Any help would be appreciated.

Also, If I need to repair a board, who do you reccomend to do the work?

thanks,
-Mike

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

"Mike" wrote:
> Hi, I am a long time reader, but have not posted much.
>
> I am having a problem with my TZ flippers and I hope someone can help.
>
> They work fine until the machine warms up. Then, both upper flippers
> get very weak. The lower flippers seem to get weaker too, but it is
> hard to tell. Both upper flippers get extremely weak. This is very
> simillar to what is described in Clay's WPC fix guides.

A really common problem for "weak upper flippers" on games that have more
than 2 flippers, is adjustment problems with the blade on the flipper opto
board assemblies in the main cabinet. The upper flippers are controlled by
the lower optos on these boards and the plastic interrupter blade that
breaks the opto beam (to turn off flippers) has to be moved ALL THE WAY out
of the path of the beam to make for a proper, strong flip. If the blade
isn't quite clearing the beam, you can get a weak flip.

I don't know why, but I've seen this problem a lot more on TZ games than any
others, so may be something inherent in the design.

So you might check for this. You can make some adjustments to the PC board
as it mounts on the cabinet wall by adding shims behind (to push it out-
toward the blade) or add a screw or other spacer on the end of the tip of
the flipper button to make it's "throw" longer- it will push the blade
further out- have had to do this on many "in the field" fixes.

See if this helps. If so, you're fixed. If not, then some more head
scratching is in order- I haven't seen this related to a "warm/cold"
situation specifically- that may just be coincidence.

> The strange thing is this: When in play, I can flip and hold all
> flippers. When I enter the flipper diagnostics, the hold test does not
> work on any of the flippers. You can tell it is trying to hold, but
> can not get the flipper up. Even stranger, the actual flip test works
> fine for all flippers weahter the machine has warmed up or not.

This is normal. The "hold" test is activating only the weak "hold" winding
in the coil. This winding, on most coils, is not strong enough to actually
pull the whole flipper to the "up" position- it's only designed with enough
strength to hold the flipper in the "up" position after it's been pulled
there by the higher-powered "pull" or "power" winding.

The general rule of thumb is to "help" the flipper up with your finger when
the "hold" test is running- this will show you if the computer is actually
able to activate the flipper's hold winding (if power is present of course).

So what you're seeing is correct.

On games with more powerful flipper coils like FL-11629 or FL-17636, the
"hold" test will be able to pull the flipper mech to the up position. But
on all other coils (FL-15411 like TZ lower flippers) and lower, the coil
power isn't enough to pull the flipper up during "hold" winding test.

> I have a feeling I am looking at circuit board tests and repairs. Can
> anyone tell me where to start?

That's often a conclusion that's jumped to prematurely as circuit boards and
"chips" are some of the most unknown and misunderstood components in any
game, so they're always easy suspects. But 9 times out of 10 problems like
you're describing are of a physical nature- dirty optos (yes, you've cleaned
your's), worn out or misadjusted flipper mechanical parts (you mentioned you
rebuilt your's- with new parts I assume), or adjustments to the interrupter
blade- those sorts of things.

Good luck!

Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com

We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I highly suggest using these replacement
flipper opto boards for your TZ, (whether
it needs them or not).

http://www.pbliz.com/id33.htm

It does correct the 'weak flipper' problem
if the optos are an issue. No other replacements
available have this design correction.

"Hold" test does not normally activate the flipper
in diagnostics. You will have to manually lift the
flipper, and see if it 'holds' then.

--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************



"Mike" <crazydragrace@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> They work fine until the machine warms up. Then, both upper flippers
> get very weak. The lower flippers seem to get weaker too, but it is
> hard to tell. Both upper flippers get extremely weak.
>

>. When I enter the flipper diagnostics, the hold test does not
> work on any of the flippers. You can tell it is trying to hold, but
> can not get the flipper up.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Don't know if this is your only WPC but if you have another, first
thing I would do is swap the flipper driver board and see if you still
have the problem. If you do then you know it's most likely in the opto
boards as mentioned above. I like elimenating the main logic first.
Saves a lot of guess work and narrows things down faster.
I have seen weak flips with of course dirty optos but you said you
cleaned them. I would do as suggested and make sure that tab comes all
the way out of the opto when pressed.
Good luck

PS
if it IS your flipper board ,check for a cold solder joint on the back
side. As long as you have it out to inspect you might as well flow some
solder in the pins. Can't hurt. Since you said it's a problem when it's
warm, I would definately do this step. Solder contracts and expands
with heat/cool cycles and eventually cracks.

 

[Mike]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Thanks for all the advice. I really appreciate it.

I did not know about the flip hold test not pulling the flipper up.
Thanks. This makes diagnosis easier.

I am leaning toward replacing the flipper opto boards. When I
resoldered them, it was obvious that they were previously repaired.
Also, I forgot to mention that I did swap the flipper driver board with
one in my TAFG. It worked fine in the TAFG for a few days.

I'll try the PBL flipper opto boards and let you all know how it works
out.

Thanks,
-Mike