Black Hole- strange problems.

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I've still been working on this Black hole. Here are my current
problems:

With everything connected: GI lights in the head are all that work,
except for ONE light on the playfield (shoot again when lit)

With the CPU, Driver, and sound board out, I get all of the current
voltages at the PS board. With them CPU in, I get only 4.3 on the CPU
ROM. With CPU and Driver, I get only 4.1 at the driver. Obviously the
PS board is dropping way to much with the load...why? Also, this is a
new PS board from Rottendog Amusements.

Other strange occurences (maybe 5v related?):
With only the CPU-Driver connector undone(everything else in place), I
get GI lights in Head and PLayfield and I get score displays, but not
the attract-mode lights. It will accept credits and if I hit start it
subtracts a credit and says ball in play. No drivers work.

With only A1-J6 disconnected, it goes through the attract light
sequence, accept credits, and appears as thought it will work. The
captive hole on the lower playfield remains energized though. When I
hit start, it very weakly pushes the balls in the trough. No points
register.

I've done all the mandatory mods, including connectors. Everything in
the cab is testing OK as far as fuses, transistors, resistors and
everything on the playfield. The CPU (with different ROM in it) and
Driver were tested in a different System 80 machine (Time Line?) and
did fine, but that machine doesn't use all of the same drivers and
obviously this doesn't test my ROM, but otherwise they worked 100%.
That's it for now.

Any ideas? What should I do next?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

The GI doesn't go through the power supply. The 5V at the PS runs the
cpu and other boards. The GI comes right from the 5V bridge on the
bottom board,
I think. Let somebody chime in on that before you go testing alot of
other stuff.

zTim

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Hello,

Please read comments/observations/questions inserted below.


> With everything connected: GI lights in the head are all that work,
> except for ONE light on the playfield (shoot again when lit)

This sounds like the CPU is locked up. Because it sounds like your CPU
tested ok in the Time Line you may want to check the coin door switches,
tilt switches, and slam switch in the Black Hole. These may be faulty,
hence causing the CPU to lock up. Conversely, the Black Hole game rom may
be bad. See comment #3 below.

>
> With the CPU, Driver, and sound board out, I get all of the current
> voltages at the PS board. With them CPU in, I get only 4.3 on the CPU
> ROM. With CPU and Driver, I get only 4.1 at the driver. Obviously the
> PS board is dropping way to much with the load...why? Also, this is a
> new PS board from Rottendog Amusements.

>
> Other strange occurences (maybe 5v related?):
> With only the CPU-Driver connector undone(everything else in place), I
> get GI lights in Head and PLayfield and I get score displays, but not
> the attract-mode lights. It will accept credits and if I hit start it
> subtracts a credit and says ball in play. No drivers work.

This is probably normal behavior. The attract-mode lights work because the
driver board receives instructions from the CPU to illuminate the attract
mode lights. You simply have disconnected the communication.


> With only A1-J6 disconnected, it goes through the attract light
> sequence, accept credits, and appears as thought it will work. The
> captive hole on the lower playfield remains energized though. When I
> hit start, it very weakly pushes the balls in the trough. No points
> register.

This is probably normal behavior as well. The playfield switches input the
switch matrix at A1-J6, so again communication this time between the
playfield and the CPU has been cut off.


>
> I've done all the mandatory mods, including connectors. Everything in
> the cab is testing OK as far as fuses, transistors, resistors and
> everything on the playfield. The CPU (with different ROM in it) and
> Driver were tested in a different System 80 machine (Time Line?) and
> did fine, but that machine doesn't use all of the same drivers and
> obviously this doesn't test my ROM, but otherwise they worked 100%.
> That's it for now.
>
> Any ideas? What should I do next?
>

1. Have you replaced the big orange capacitor in the bottom of the cabinet?

2. Try using the power supply from the Time Line in your Black Hole. The
Rotten Dog device may be problematic.

3. Here is an experiment. Take your Black Hole CPU, with the Black Hole
rom, and plug it into your Time Line game. Turn the game on, and get into
the bookkeeping mode by pushing the button inside the coin door. Run test
20 (memory test), and see if you have bad devices on the CPU.

4. Please report back here with your findings.

Good luck,

Dan

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Dan-
First, thanks for the help. As for your suggestions-
1. Yes! I did all the mandatory mods.
2/3. I'm thinking the RottenDog board might be problematic too.
Unfortunately, Time Line is not my game. It belongs to a fellow
collector who is actually selling it on ebay right now. So, I can't
use that PS. I have my old PS, but it blows fuses when I put it in.
Same thing for testing the CPU in the TimeLine.
If I remember correctly, though, when we had Black Hole in test mode
earlier tonight it read "99" for test 20. I'll have to run it through
that again tomorrow or Monday to make sure.

I'm a little worried with that Captive Hole on the lower playfield
being energized each time I power on the machine. I figured it was a
driver issue, but I know all kinds of weird things will happen if it's
not getting a full 5v. I checked its transistor and diode and it's
good.

I'll let you know what I get for test 20 tomorrow/Monday.

Thanks again-
Kevin

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

By the way, does anyone know where I can download a manual for Black
Hole. I used to have it on my computer but lost it after it crashed a
while back. If not for download, does anyone sell paper copies?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

It's not likely to find a Gottlieb manual online any more. PBR sells
them for sure, though.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I used test #20 and received a "99" in the small display. Thoughts?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Hi Kevin,

>I used test #20 and received a "99" in the small display. Thoughts?

What happens when you perform test #18, the switch test?

Interesting. You are able to boot the game into bookkeeping mode, but not
into game mode. The integrities of the tilt, slam, and coin mechanism (I
should have specified "mechanism" earlier, sorry) switches are normal? Are
there 3 pinballs in the trough? If not, that could be a culprit...

What fuse(s) blow when you plug the old power supply in?

The energized lower Captive Hole is worrisome. This solenoid, which I
believe is the "hole kicker" in the schematic, has a "pre-driver"
transistor Q16 on the driver board, which could be bad on your board. Is
this solenoid one of the ones that needs a pull-up resistor retrofitted? I
do not remember. Of course, all this would make more sense if you had a
manual! I have the same 16 MB file Peter has, but in truth it is more
cumbersome to use a PC/CRT/flat screen version of a manual, than one you
can flip through in your hands. Pinball Resource can help you there.

Regards,
Dan

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I've got it, but it's very big file (16Mb)
If you like I can send it to you.

Peter


"BWAGNER5150" <wagner_benjamin@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1122798178.879732.240930@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> It's not likely to find a Gottlieb manual online any more. PBR sells
> them for sure, though.
>

 

[steve]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

First thing to do is fix the 5 volt PS problems. If the CPU
board doesn't get 5 volts (+/-0.2) it won't work properly.
If you're getting 5 volts at the PS, but 4.3 v at the CPU board,
you've got flaky connectors (big suprise!). Check for corrosion,
bad crimps, solder cracks around pins.

Steve

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I'm away from home until tomorrow afternoon, but I'll do my best to
answer some of the suggestions you guys gave and we'll see if there are
any other suggestions or ideas that come of it.
Here we go....

1)What happens when you perform test #18, the switch test?
- I'll let you know as soon as I get home. I can tell you right now
that I remember running that test and seeing a few switches come up. I
believe, but could be wrong, that 14, 15, and maybe 45 were among them.
I think maybe 4 switches showed up. I figured that one or two was
from the balls in the trough. Without the manual (not to mention left
town for a couple days) I couldn't check what other switches were
energized. I'll check for sure tomorrow.

2)Interesting. You are able to boot the game into bookkeeping mode,
but not
into game mode. The integrities of the tilt, slam, and coin mechanism
(I
should have specified "mechanism" earlier, sorry) switches are normal?
Are
there 3 pinballs in the trough? If not, that could be a culprit...
- Well, I only get displays and bookkeeping and game mode if the driver
board is not connected to the CPU. So, I detatched the CPU-->Driver
connector and ran the test. When I do that, everything appears
normal...I can drop in a quarter and it registers a credit...I hit
start and it says ball in play, but obviously the ball is never kicked
into play and no points register enen manually. I'm pretty sure I've
had three balls in that part of the trough, but not positive. I'll
make sure tomorrow.

3)What fuse(s) blow when you plug the old power supply in?
-At least the 10v, 5A fuse in the cabinet. I think it's fuse 2 or 3,
but I don't know for sure. I'm not sure if any others blew because I
haven't had it in for a while. I have plenty of fuses so I can test
that board out again tomorrow too.

4)The energized lower Captive Hole is worrisome. This solenoid, which
I
believe is the "hole kicker" in the schematic, has a "pre-driver"
transistor Q16 on the driver board, which could be bad on your board.
Is
this solenoid one of the ones that needs a pull-up resistor
retrofitted?
-The resistor is already installed and the playfield mounted transistor
tested good. I even pulled it out and put in a new one and got the
same result.



5)First thing to do is fix the 5 volt PS problems. If the CPU
board doesn't get 5 volts (+/-0.2) it won't work properly.
If you're getting 5 volts at the PS, but 4.3 v at the CPU board,
you've got flaky connectors (big suprise!). Check for corrosion,
bad crimps, solder cracks around pins.
-I'm pretty sure it's not connectors since I just redid them all. Also
because the 5v drops to 4.4v with just the CPU attached and then to
4.1v with the driver attached. It's more like my PS just can't handle
the load and it shows as more and more things are pulling.

6) Dave....wow. There's a lot of info there. I'll check those bridges
(rectifiers?) in the lower cabinet, but I just replaced them all. I'll
take everything else you suggested one at a time, and I'll probably
need help along the way.

Thanks for all of the help....I'll try to be more helpful myself
tomorrow when I have the game in front of me and can test some things.
Hopefully, I can eliminate some of these suggestions and get to the
real problem. I appreciate the time you guys are taking to help.

Kevin

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Hi Kevin,

Sounds like your CPU or something beyond is pulling down your 5v on your
power supply. You might have a couple problems here.

1st I'd check all your bridges in the lower cabinet. Do you know how to
do that? If not it's on Clay's site in the sys 80 section.

Check that the switch in the ball trough is clean and working properly.
(you need to have 3 balls in the ready poisson). Not one in the drain
and two in the ready). I'm not talking about the switch in the drain
poisson that operated the coil that pushes the ball into the trough.
However make sure that that one is working also.

Next work on your lower captive hole problem. this may be the cause of
all your problems. My HH had the same problem and the damm thing would
NOT start a game or go into attract mode. Same as you my transistors and
pre drivers were good. The problem was back on the CPU board at the Z30
chip. Once I changed that out (I socketed it also) all was well and the
game booted up like normal and I could play a game. Recheck your
transistors and pre drivers. I think that on your BH that coil is
controlled differently then on HH. The coil on BH is controlled by a
stand up resistor under the lower playfield. It should be under there
right next to the kicker. I's called Q4 in the schematics and is a
2n5875 (MJ2955 from Ed at GPE). Look at Clays site to see if it is wired
properly. Someone in the past may have mis-wired it. If all is good here
go to the driver board and check it's pre driver transistor Q 13 to see
that it's good. It's a mps-u45 (CENU45 from Ed at GPE). If all is good
so far then socket and replace chip Z4 on the driver board. It's a
SN74175N (74LS175 or 74HCT175 from Ed at GPE). From there it looks to go
to Z12 (another SN74175N) but I'm not really sure as the schematics get
confusing for me here. Hopefully you will find the problem before you
get here. I know that a chip on the CPU board is the first that controls
that coil. I think from the schematics that it's U6. Some one please
check me here. A bad U6 will also keep a CPU board from starting up
properly (common problem). However sense you tried it in a different
game and it worked I don't think that is your problem.

Good Luck, Dave



kevinlshirk@aol.com wrote:
> Dan-
> First, thanks for the help. As for your suggestions-
> 1. Yes! I did all the mandatory mods.
> 2/3. I'm thinking the RottenDog board might be problematic too.
> Unfortunately, Time Line is not my game. It belongs to a fellow
> collector who is actually selling it on ebay right now. So, I can't
> use that PS. I have my old PS, but it blows fuses when I put it in.
> Same thing for testing the CPU in the TimeLine.
> If I remember correctly, though, when we had Black Hole in test mode
> earlier tonight it read "99" for test 20. I'll have to run it through
> that again tomorrow or Monday to make sure.
>
> I'm a little worried with that Captive Hole on the lower playfield
> being energized each time I power on the machine. I figured it was a
> driver issue, but I know all kinds of weird things will happen if it's
> not getting a full 5v. I checked its transistor and diode and it's
> good.
>
> I'll let you know what I get for test 20 tomorrow/Monday.
>
> Thanks again-
> Kevin
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Hi Dave,


If all is good here
> go to the driver board and check it's pre driver transistor Q 13 to see
> that it's good. It's a mps-u45 (CENU45 from Ed at GPE). If all is good

Thanks for catching my mistake on Q13. Misread the manual--again!

Regards,

Dan

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I tried to reply once, and I guess it didn't go through. Anyway, I just
ran test 18 for the switches and got a long list. I did this with
everything connected to the CPU except the CPU-->Driver connector.
Here's what I got: 2,3,4,13,14,23,25,40,50. I had three balls in the
ready position when I did that.

With the CPU-->Driver connector in place, but not A1-J6, I get a 99.

I have no manual yet, so maybe someone here could tell me some of those
switches. It sounds to me like it's not actually open switches though,
since they all go away when A1-J6 is not attached. I'm probably wrong
though : )

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I just tested the 4 bridge rectifiers in the bottom of the cabinet. 3
of them tested bad when I put the black lead of my multimeter on the
DC- and red on the AC. I was getting numbers like 1.6
I find it odd that 3 out of 4 are bad, since I just replaced them not
long ago. I'm sure that I wired them in there right too.
If they are bad, why would they go bad?
The 3 that are testing bad are:
12vdc-PS Sound Board
+38vdc- non-controlled solenoids
24vdc- controlled solenoids.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Hi Kevin,

perhaps the bridge rectifiers were bad before you put them in? Seem
unlikely, I know. Do you have any extras from the same lot, to test?
Certainly all bets are off, if these are bad...:-(

The diagnostic tests were designed to be helpful when all the boards are
plugged in together. In my simple mind it is difficult to make conclusions
about test results when the boards are unplugged.

Have you hunted down the Q13 transistor Dave mentioned (NOT Q16, like I
mentioned...), on the driver board? That energized coil may be giving you
trouble, and a bad Q13 would explain it... What clouds the picture for me
here is that the driver board worked normally in the Time Line, right?

Sounds like you need a power supply rebuild, for the original supply.
Requires a number of new parts, but once you do that the supply will be
pretty stout, for home use.

Regards,
Dan

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I wish I could run those diagnostic tests with all connectors in place,
but when they're all connected I don't get any displays....only when
one of those two (A1J6, or CPU--Driver) is disconnected.
I'll test Q13 tomorrow.
Do rectifiers test differently when out of a game? I was thinking of
taking them out and testing them. Fortunately, I soldered quick
disconnects onto all of the wires that attach to the rectifiers, so I
can just slide them on and off. I'm glad I did that now.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I removed my two posts about the bridge rectifiers. I checked them
again before buying new ones, and they are testing fine. I'm not sure
how I messed that up (one tested fine, I guess I tested the other 3
wrong!)
So, eliminate rectifiers from the problem. Makes sense, since the PS
is getting in the correct voltages.
I tested Q13 and all seems good there.
I noticed that the coil that kicks that ball back up to the upper
playfield also stays energized. I never noticed this before because I
fused it and the fuse had blown.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

> I noticed that the coil that kicks that ball back up to the upper
> playfield also stays energized. I never noticed this before because I
> fused it and the fuse had blown.
>

After CAREFULLY (!) reading the schematic this coil's pre-driver transistor
is Q15. Both Q13 and Q15 are driven by the same 74175 chip, Z4 on the
schematic. Hmm, maybe that chip is the culprit, all along? Otherwise, I
would have to spitball and say recheck the wiring of the playfield mounted
power transistors for those coils. I have seen them wired incorrectly.

Regards,
Dan

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I'll replace that chip soon. I have some 74175s ordered along with
sockets, so as soon as they arrive, I will put it in and fire it up.
Thanks for the help...I'll check back in if anything new comes up
before the chips arrive.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Hi Dan,
I really need to disagree with you on this one. From what I read and
comparing it to my BH the transistor pre driver in the driver board is
Q13. The name of Kevin's coil that's stuck on is "Hole Kicker" on the
"Lower Playfield" part of the Main Driver Board Schematics. I think your
confusing this with the "Ball Left Kicker". The coil in question goes to
pin 25 on A3J3 of the Main Driver Board, through "Q13" and then on to
Z4. This is my story and I'm sticking to it.

Till next time, Dave

Dan Beck wrote:
>>I noticed that the coil that kicks that ball back up to the upper
>>playfield also stays energized. I never noticed this before because I
>>fused it and the fuse had blown.
>>
>
>
> After CAREFULLY (!) reading the schematic this coil's pre-driver transistor
> is Q15. Both Q13 and Q15 are driven by the same 74175 chip, Z4 on the
> schematic. Hmm, maybe that chip is the culprit, all along? Otherwise, I
> would have to spitball and say recheck the wiring of the playfield mounted
> power transistors for those coils. I have seen them wired incorrectly.
>
> Regards,
> Dan
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Oops, Stupid me. I didn't read the whole thread. Were now talking about
two coils being stuck on. Your of course right here Dan. I'll sulk away
now with my head down.

Dave

Dan Beck wrote:

>>I noticed that the coil that kicks that ball back up to the upper
>>playfield also stays energized. I never noticed this before because I
>>fused it and the fuse had blown.
>>
>
>
> After CAREFULLY (!) reading the schematic this coil's pre-driver transistor
> is Q15. Both Q13 and Q15 are driven by the same 74175 chip, Z4 on the
> schematic. Hmm, maybe that chip is the culprit, all along? Otherwise, I
> would have to spitball and say recheck the wiring of the playfield mounted
> power transistors for those coils. I have seen them wired incorrectly.
>
> Regards,
> Dan
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Here's a quick update: I just put in the sockets and 74175s at z4 and
z12 on the Driver board. This seems to have stopped the kickers from
firing on power-up.
The PS is still putting out 5v until I attach the CPU, then it drops
the 4.5-4.6, then to 4.3 if the driver is connected.

It feels good to get that one problem out of the way, but I'm still
stuck with this PS that won't work right.

That's my next step...anyone want to chime in on that now that we've
eliminated the coils being stuck on?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Hi Kevin,

Regarding that power supply, have you measured the voltage going into the
power supply board? Make sure it isn't drooping or have excessive AC on it?
How about the main filter cap by the transformer? Original? Try measuring
the AC voltage across that capacitor (the 12V filter cap!).

Also - since the voltage is dropping with load increasing - sounds like
excessive resistance somewhere. Try reflowing the J1 and J2 connectors on
the power supply? Bad connection to Q3 transistor on power supply?

If you taking off that transistor & heatsink plate from the power supply ---
may as well replace the C1, C2 and C4 electroltyics, R10, CR7 and that POT1
while you're at it.

-- Ed



<kevinlshirk@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1125778774.416358.8890@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Here's a quick update: I just put in the sockets and 74175s at z4 and
> z12 on the Driver board. This seems to have stopped the kickers from
> firing on power-up.
> The PS is still putting out 5v until I attach the CPU, then it drops
> the 4.5-4.6, then to 4.3 if the driver is connected.
>
> It feels good to get that one problem out of the way, but I'm still
> stuck with this PS that won't work right.
>
> That's my next step...anyone want to chime in on that now that we've
> eliminated the coils being stuck on?
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Ed- Thanks. Somewhere in this thread I mentioned that I'm actually
using a newer PS board that I ordered from Rottendog Amusements. The
origina PS that I had in there when it broke blows fuses when I put it
in now, so I tried that new board.
If someone would finish beta-testing their new Gottlieb System 80 PS
board, I could try that ; )

Seriously though, until that becomes an option, I think I'm going to
have to try to repair the orginal. I know they aren't terribly
complex, but I have to make a list of the parts that I may need and
make the order.

By the way, incase you have a suggestion, the original was blowing the
10v, 5a fuse, which is listed as "F2 Power Supply 10vac".