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Suppliers Licensed to Make Parts

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Anonymous
August 1, 2005 8:16:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

We have tried to work with suppliers but as they are wanting to charge the
customers the 400% profit and not want to hand over the small amount we are
seeking we have decided to make the items ourselves.

All these items plus more will be remade like the originals with licences
obtained from any 3rd parties.

All websites selling pirate items will be pulled and any people selling them
will have their email accounts also pulled.

These items will be cheaper to the consumer than currently available, like
it or hate it we have no choice.

If things change we will keep you all updated

So regardless of what you are told as a consumer nobody has permission to
remake art or parts for Bally Williams games other than IPB & Mr Pinball
Australia.

Anyone making such parts are a supplier only to one of these 2 companies and
such cannot sell the goods themselves.

Anyone who has bought pirate art is within their right to request a refund
from the seller

John Anderson
Legal Dept
www.pinball.com
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 8:16:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

OK, then we can see from you smaller things like repo: Stickers,
decals, ramps, and even older Willams System 11 stuff? Im talking about
Back Glasses, Playfields etc. etc. While doing stuff for newer games
like CV and MM is wonderful, the other 50% of us need Badly the older
stuff! Please tell me/us that the older games arent going to be
fortotten in this errr... new business deal, as alot of what we need
are out there already. Thanks for your reply,~Pinball Bret
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 8:16:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

make the goods, sell 'em for 400% less than your competition, provide
top-notch service and stand behind your product.
that's the best step you can take. I'll buy something.

"Mr Pinball Australia" <sales@mrpinball.com.au> wrote in message
news:imhHe.68334$oJ.40308@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> We have tried to work with suppliers but as they are wanting to charge the
> customers the 400% profit and not want to hand over the small amount we
> are
> seeking we have decided to make the items ourselves.
>
> All these items plus more will be remade like the originals with licences
> obtained from any 3rd parties.
>
> All websites selling pirate items will be pulled and any people selling
> them
> will have their email accounts also pulled.
>
> These items will be cheaper to the consumer than currently available, like
> it or hate it we have no choice.
>
> If things change we will keep you all updated
>
> So regardless of what you are told as a consumer nobody has permission to
> remake art or parts for Bally Williams games other than IPB & Mr Pinball
> Australia.
>
> Anyone making such parts are a supplier only to one of these 2 companies
> and
> such cannot sell the goods themselves.
>
> Anyone who has bought pirate art is within their right to request a refund
> from the seller
>
> John Anderson
> Legal Dept
> www.pinball.com
>
>
Related resources
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 8:16:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

All websites selling pirate items will be pulled and any people selling
them
will have their email accounts also pulled.

These items will be cheaper to the consumer than currently available,
like
it or hate it we have no choice.

If things change we will keep you all updated

So regardless of what you are told as a consumer nobody has permission
to
remake art or parts for Bally Williams games other than IPB & Mr
Pinball
Australia.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love this. I really don't know the intention of "John" in the "legal
dept." but it
always amazes me to see, "Stop making these parts. We aren't going to
make them because there isn't enough profit in it for us, but we don't
want you
making them either. We won't commit to anything, but we're not going
allow
the community to have anything either". It's always the same thing.
I've become
somewhat of a radical in my old age so I say unless they state publicly
that the
item is available for purchase, make what you want. There are a lot of
avenues to
make "NEEDED" items available to the public community. This group is
one of
the best vehicles for repro parts. I have more than once received an
item that was
sold as "NOS" and after close examination discovered it to be a very
nice repro.

So if Mr. Pinball Australia wants respect they are going to have to
earn it. Put the
parts out there and keep the BS to yourself. I'll buy your parts, when
I see them.

Mario
Pinthetic
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 8:16:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

>The more I read from this guy the more I think he's no attorney at all.

Well, it must be a small legal department since he is using the email
addy and RGP name that Wayne uses.

Not sure if his post was a threat, whining, warning, bitching, or
whatever. These posts are so counter productive to MPA and their future
business that it isn't even funny.

>Anyone who has bought pirate art is within their right to request a refund from the seller

refund? no thanks. I'll keep the parts I have, thank you very little.
Besides, how do I know if they are NOS or "pirate" as you say?

Kirb
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 8:16:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

stop wasting your time, your pounding sand...

Pinlicious ( ...there is no spoon.)
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 8:16:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

> All websites selling pirate items will be pulled and any people selling them
> will have their email accounts also pulled.

And how the hell do you plan on "pulling" people's email addresses?
Methinks you're just pulling our leg (ba-boom*CRASH*)

> Anyone who has bought pirate art is within their right to request a refund
> from the seller

...along with the right to install it and enjoy it? ;) 

> John Anderson

Hey, you wouldn't happen to be the author of Rally Speedway on the C-64
and Atari 800, would you? Great game.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 8:16:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

<copyright rant>

If this annoys anyone else besides me (I think it does), keep this in
mind when you vote for your congresscritters in 2006. If copyright
were still at the original 14 years, old games prior to WPC would be
public domain (as they should be, their moneymaking potential is
basically done). But no, we now have 90+ year copyrights, and this
nonsense is a direct result. Greed, pure and simple.

Tell me, anyone, why Gene, or Wayne, or anyone else should be
compensated for reproductions of artwork for these old games (1990 and
prior) ..? Manufacturers have already made their money, operators have
already made their money, locations have already made their money...
it's done, time to give it back. PD time, guys.

</copyright rant>

Cliffy wrote:
> Pinthetic@gmail.com wrote:
> > I love this. I really don't know the intention of "John" in the "legal
> > dept." but it
> > always amazes me to see, "Stop making these parts. We aren't going to
> > make them because there isn't enough profit in it for us, but we don't
> > want you
> > making them either. We won't commit to anything, but we're not going
> > allow
> > the community to have anything either". It's always the same thing.
> > I've become
> > somewhat of a radical in my old age so I say unless they state publicly
> > that the
> > item is available for purchase, make what you want. There are a lot of
> > avenues to
> > make "NEEDED" items available to the public community. This group is
> > one of
> > the best vehicles for repro parts. I have more than once received an
> > item that was
> > sold as "NOS" and after close examination discovered it to be a very
> > nice repro.
> >
> > So if Mr. Pinball Australia wants respect they are going to have to
> > earn it. Put the
> > parts out there and keep the BS to yourself. I'll buy your parts, when
> > I see them.
> >
> > Mario
> > Pinthetic
> >
>
> Because he doesn't apparently believe in capitalism, rather he seems to
> be a protectionist. As somebody already said, let him compete. In this
> day and age we all have to interview for our own jobs. Why should he be
> any different? I love that line where he says no one would "hand over"
> monies as royalties. puleeze. hand over? and this is supposed to be an
> attorney? The more I read from this guy the more I think he's no
> attorney at all. Just a made up name. He certainly doesn't write like
> attorney and no attorney I know would plead their case in public!
> Especially if he is the attorney for the plaintiff! :) 
>
> --
> Cliffy - CARGPB2
> A passion for pinball!
> http://www.passionforpinball.com
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 8:16:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

So ?
It's not because something is cheap in the usa it is elsewhere in the
world.
Ie flipperwinkel.nl also sells novus 3 at 10 euro a bottle which also
comes
to around $14. Someone especially imports it, which causes a high price
(shipping + import taxes).
And yes all these people will also have a nice markup, but don't just
think that because it sells i.e. for $5 in the usa, they have a $9
profit..

Aeneas
-- http://www.flippers.be
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 8:16:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Pinthetic@gmail.com wrote:
> I love this. I really don't know the intention of "John" in the "legal
> dept." but it
> always amazes me to see, "Stop making these parts. We aren't going to
> make them because there isn't enough profit in it for us, but we don't
> want you
> making them either. We won't commit to anything, but we're not going
> allow
> the community to have anything either". It's always the same thing.
> I've become
> somewhat of a radical in my old age so I say unless they state publicly
> that the
> item is available for purchase, make what you want. There are a lot of
> avenues to
> make "NEEDED" items available to the public community. This group is
> one of
> the best vehicles for repro parts. I have more than once received an
> item that was
> sold as "NOS" and after close examination discovered it to be a very
> nice repro.
>
> So if Mr. Pinball Australia wants respect they are going to have to
> earn it. Put the
> parts out there and keep the BS to yourself. I'll buy your parts, when
> I see them.
>
> Mario
> Pinthetic
>

Because he doesn't apparently believe in capitalism, rather he seems to
be a protectionist. As somebody already said, let him compete. In this
day and age we all have to interview for our own jobs. Why should he be
any different? I love that line where he says no one would "hand over"
monies as royalties. puleeze. hand over? and this is supposed to be an
attorney? The more I read from this guy the more I think he's no
attorney at all. Just a made up name. He certainly doesn't write like
attorney and no attorney I know would plead their case in public!
Especially if he is the attorney for the plaintiff! :) 

--
Cliffy - CARGPB2
A passion for pinball!
http://www.passionforpinball.com
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 8:49:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

400% is BS. In most cases it's more like 40%. Or less.

bogart
www.pinrestore.com

Mr Pinball Australia wrote:
> We have tried to work with suppliers but as they are wanting to charge the
> customers the 400% profit and not want to hand over the small amount we are
> seeking we have decided to make the items ourselves.
>
>
> John Anderson
> Legal Dept
> www.pinball.com
>
>
August 1, 2005 8:55:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 04:16:14 GMT, "Mr Pinball Australia"
<sales@mrpinball.com.au> wrote:

>All websites selling pirate items will be pulled and any people selling them
>will have their email accounts also pulled.

I think you meant 'ebay account'. Good luck trying to "pull"
someone's email account.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 10:36:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

L*A*M*E

Seriously. What kind of lawyers do they have down under? This is,
like, 6th grade grammar and composition - done badly.

All I can say, is stop talking and start producing. These silly posts
aren't doing you any favors.

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 04:16:14 GMT, "Mr Pinball Australia"
<sales@mrpinball.com.au> wrote:

>We have tried to work with suppliers but as they are wanting to charge the
>customers the 400% profit and not want to hand over the small amount we are
>seeking we have decided to make the items ourselves.
>
>All these items plus more will be remade like the originals with licences
>obtained from any 3rd parties.
>
>All websites selling pirate items will be pulled and any people selling them
>will have their email accounts also pulled.
>
>These items will be cheaper to the consumer than currently available, like
>it or hate it we have no choice.
>
>If things change we will keep you all updated
>
>So regardless of what you are told as a consumer nobody has permission to
>remake art or parts for Bally Williams games other than IPB & Mr Pinball
>Australia.
>
>Anyone making such parts are a supplier only to one of these 2 companies and
>such cannot sell the goods themselves.
>
>Anyone who has bought pirate art is within their right to request a refund
>from the seller
>
>John Anderson
>Legal Dept
>www.pinball.com
>
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 11:38:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Right on. It's like why do we have to pay sales tax on something that
the tax was already paid on once? Ridiculous.
Cliffy
A passion for pinball!
www.passionforpinball.com
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 12:26:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Something doesn't ring true here. He is saying that the suppliers want
400% profit and won't hand over the "small amount" they are asking.

Has he examined the cost structure and profitability of all products
from all repro suppliers? Have they agreed to hand over this
information?

Is he saying all products from all repro suppliers have the same cost
structure and profit margin? How would he know?

MPA is asking for a "small amount" and not ONE of the suppliers
agreed? I wonder what the "small amount" really was. I doubt the
suppliers would agree that it was a "small amount".

And making an RGP announcement is supposed to accomplish what?
Wouldn't a business entity normally publish a press release and
quietly send letters to all the suppliers rather than blather on RGP?

One of the parties involved is lacking business sense, and my money is
on the dingo.

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 04:49:05 GMT, bogart <pinrestore@gmail.com> wrote:

>400% is BS. In most cases it's more like 40%. Or less.
>
>bogart
>www.pinrestore.com
>
>Mr Pinball Australia wrote:
>> We have tried to work with suppliers but as they are wanting to charge the
>> customers the 400% profit and not want to hand over the small amount we are
>> seeking we have decided to make the items ourselves.
>>
>>
>> John Anderson
>> Legal Dept
>> www.pinball.com
>>
>>
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 12:36:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

"John Anderson"? Hey, I voted for you for President back in the 80's!

Oh, sorry, Wayne. I didn't realize that was a ficticious name you're
using from your own email account to have an evil alter-ego that you
can later blame for being "over zealous".

Generalized threats of specific actions are really quite meaningless
posted in a public forum. If you're really serious, you'd send any
known offenders a certified letter from an attorney licensed in the
venue where the offender resides, citing a specific law (in that same
venue) which the offender may have broken.

To the others who question whether the guy is really an attorney,
based upon his writing: Who knows? The US legal system, which is the
most complex in the world, requires an undergraduate degree followed
by law school. Law school is difficult to get into, due to the many
people who apply for the small number of positions available. And,
once you graduate, you have to pass the Bar exam. Want to move to
another state? Your new state may or may not require you to pass THEIR
Bar exam to practice. Elsewhere in the world, the situation is
different. Most law degrees are earned like an undergraduate degree.
Some countries have no Bar exams. Even the worst student could legally
say "I am an attorney" if they graduate. I don't know what the
situation is in Australia, but the guy didn't even sign his message as
an attorney. He signed as "Legal Dept", which could mean, literally,
anything.

Craig


On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 04:16:14 GMT, "Mr Pinball Australia"
<sales@mrpinball.com.au> wrote:

>We have tried to work with suppliers but as they are wanting to charge the
>customers the 400% profit and not want to hand over the small amount we are
>seeking we have decided to make the items ourselves.
>
>All these items plus more will be remade like the originals with licences
>obtained from any 3rd parties.
>
>All websites selling pirate items will be pulled and any people selling them
>will have their email accounts also pulled.
>
>These items will be cheaper to the consumer than currently available, like
>it or hate it we have no choice.
>
>If things change we will keep you all updated
>
>So regardless of what you are told as a consumer nobody has permission to
>remake art or parts for Bally Williams games other than IPB & Mr Pinball
>Australia.
>
>Anyone making such parts are a supplier only to one of these 2 companies and
>such cannot sell the goods themselves.
>
>Anyone who has bought pirate art is within their right to request a refund
>from the seller
>
>John Anderson
>Legal Dept
>www.pinball.com
>
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 12:42:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Did you look for the secret authenticity hologram?
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 12:48:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

It seems like you've been living *two* lives, Mr. Anderson...
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 12:53:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Kenbo wrote:

> One of the parties involved is lacking business sense, and my money is
> on the dingo.

The dingo ate my repro parts! : (

- Josh A.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 1:00:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

So, I guess Jeff can't sell his stuff either??

He's now not , "licensed"?

Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
===============================
Pinthe...@gmail.com wrote:
> All websites selling pirate items will be pulled and any people selling
> them
> will have their email accounts also pulled.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 1:02:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Also part of me wonders if this is just trying to build hype.

Looks like we're stepping up a notch to not only the makers of the
parts but the people selling the repro parts. The one thing that i
really hope is that come October we're not left holding an empty bag of
threats and no parts. Or, almost even worse, having MPA only make the
parts that people have already reproduced and saturated the market.

Enough with the cage rattling. If you're making parts then tell us
what's coming. You can't lose out right?

-c
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 1:14:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

well if he is going to sell this stuff for 400% less

why does he need lawyers to put people out of business?

john

www.kansascitypinball.com
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 1:40:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Hee, very good Chris! Here is another one:

Do you hear that, Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability.

Jim

Chris Lyon wrote:
> It seems like you've been living *two* lives, Mr. Anderson...
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 1:53:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

AGENT SMITH It seems that you have been living two lives. In one life,
you are Thomas A. Anderson, program writer for a respectable software
company. You have a social security number, you pay your taxes and you
help your land lady carry out her garbage.

AGENT SMITH The other life is lived in computers where you go by the
hacker alias Neo, and are guilty of virtually every computer crime we
have a law for, including the unauthorized use of the D.M.V. system for
the removal of automobile boots.

AGENT SMITH One of these,lives has a future. One of them does not.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 2:23:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

So the subject says Suppliers Licensed. Who are they? Or did you mean
NO Suppliers Licensed.

John!

Mr Pinball Australia wrote:
> Idle threats and childish rants deleted>
> John Anderson
> Legal Dept
> www.pinball.com
>
>
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 2:29:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

> All websites selling pirate items will be pulled and any people selling
> them
> will have their email accounts also pulled.

No Black Rose parts!!! Woo Hoo!! ;-)

--
Mike S.
Kalamazoo, MI

Gameroom: http://tinyurl.com/4hfev
W C S Owner's List: http://tinyurl.com/39cjo
M B Scoop Repair: http://tinyurl.com/9lfu
--------------------------------------------
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 7:00:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

> >>We have tried to work with suppliers but as they are wanting to charge the
> >>customers the 400% profit and not want to hand over the small amount we are
> >>seeking we have decided to make the items ourselves.

How many of these "suppliers" did "try" and work with?

> >>These items will be cheaper to the consumer than currently available, like
> >>it or hate it we have no choice.

Of course you will make them cheaper to the consumer. They will cost
zero $ because you will not produce anything. Stop nickeling and diming
with the lawyer stuff and produce your machine and/or parts.

> >>If things change we will keep you all updated

I should still have the same email address in ten years. Looking
forward to the update next decade.

> >>Anyone who has bought pirate art is within their right to request a refund
> >>from the seller.

What kind of pirate art? You mean like drawings of pirates and swords
and buccaneers and booty?
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 8:58:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

We haven't heard from a single supplier about this.

I am so sick of this guy speaking in riddles that lead to far more
questions than answers.

Legal dept....yea right LOL

The whole operation seems amateurish.


Mike Oxlawng wrote:
> > >>We have tried to work with suppliers but as they are wanting to charge the
> > >>customers the 400% profit and not want to hand over the small amount we are
> > >>seeking we have decided to make the items ourselves.
>
> How many of these "suppliers" did "try" and work with?
>
> > >>These items will be cheaper to the consumer than currently available, like
> > >>it or hate it we have no choice.
>
> Of course you will make them cheaper to the consumer. They will cost
> zero $ because you will not produce anything. Stop nickeling and diming
> with the lawyer stuff and produce your machine and/or parts.
>
> > >>If things change we will keep you all updated
>
> I should still have the same email address in ten years. Looking
> forward to the update next decade.
>
> > >>Anyone who has bought pirate art is within their right to request a refund
> > >>from the seller.
>
> What kind of pirate art? You mean like drawings of pirates and swords
> and buccaneers and booty?
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 10:00:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Ray,

No, BMI is a minor annoyance as we know what he is about.

Wayne, on the other hand seems to be adversely affecting pinball
enthusiasts and small businesses which support the hobby.

Not sure why you think BMI is involved.

Mark

Ray Johnson - Action Pinball wrote:
> I missed the first of this thread. Are we talking about BMI?
>
> Ray J.
> --
> Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
> Salt Lake City, Utah USA
> Web: www.actionpinball.com
>
> We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
>
>
>
> "Mark_in_PA" <mark_in_penna@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1122940716.839851.280140@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > We haven't heard from a single supplier about this.
> >
> > I am so sick of this guy speaking in riddles that lead to far more
> > questions than answers.
> >
> > Legal dept....yea right LOL
> >
> > The whole operation seems amateurish.
> >
> >
> > Mike Oxlawng wrote:
> > > > >>We have tried to work with suppliers but as they are wanting to
> charge the
> > > > >>customers the 400% profit and not want to hand over the small amount
> we are
> > > > >>seeking we have decided to make the items ourselves.
> > >
> > > How many of these "suppliers" did "try" and work with?
> > >
> > > > >>These items will be cheaper to the consumer than currently
> available, like
> > > > >>it or hate it we have no choice.
> > >
> > > Of course you will make them cheaper to the consumer. They will cost
> > > zero $ because you will not produce anything. Stop nickeling and diming
> > > with the lawyer stuff and produce your machine and/or parts.
> > >
> > > > >>If things change we will keep you all updated
> > >
> > > I should still have the same email address in ten years. Looking
> > > forward to the update next decade.
> > >
> > > > >>Anyone who has bought pirate art is within their right to request a
> refund
> > > > >>from the seller.
> > >
> > > What kind of pirate art? You mean like drawings of pirates and swords
> > > and buccaneers and booty?
> >
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 10:19:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I missed the first of this thread. Are we talking about BMI?

Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com

We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!



"Mark_in_PA" <mark_in_penna@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1122940716.839851.280140@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> We haven't heard from a single supplier about this.
>
> I am so sick of this guy speaking in riddles that lead to far more
> questions than answers.
>
> Legal dept....yea right LOL
>
> The whole operation seems amateurish.
>
>
> Mike Oxlawng wrote:
> > > >>We have tried to work with suppliers but as they are wanting to
charge the
> > > >>customers the 400% profit and not want to hand over the small amount
we are
> > > >>seeking we have decided to make the items ourselves.
> >
> > How many of these "suppliers" did "try" and work with?
> >
> > > >>These items will be cheaper to the consumer than currently
available, like
> > > >>it or hate it we have no choice.
> >
> > Of course you will make them cheaper to the consumer. They will cost
> > zero $ because you will not produce anything. Stop nickeling and diming
> > with the lawyer stuff and produce your machine and/or parts.
> >
> > > >>If things change we will keep you all updated
> >
> > I should still have the same email address in ten years. Looking
> > forward to the update next decade.
> >
> > > >>Anyone who has bought pirate art is within their right to request a
refund
> > > >>from the seller.
> >
> > What kind of pirate art? You mean like drawings of pirates and swords
> > and buccaneers and booty?
>
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 10:29:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Well, that is interesting.
I want to see a full range of parts then.

For all the Bally Williams machines!


These guys do wonders for the hick image of fellow Australians.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 10:35:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

And speaking of markup.

Novus 1, 2 or 3 from MrPinball Au at $20au a bottle ($15US). For a 8 oz
bottle.


Nuff said.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 10:52:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Legal dept. Yeah, didn't you see it? It was located to the left (on
the workbench) of the 10 yr old MAC in the development dept.
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 12:08:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

> One thing to note is that all the chatter about this has actually helped the lawyers.

Exactly.. it's even possible Wayne deliberately posted this message in
un-legal lingo..
we do get the message (don't buy illegal repros as the only legal parts
comes from them or IPB) but can't resist posting so he has proof we all
now it.
It'd be much better to just ignore posts like this in the future.

And to Corncob: imo it was just much easier for Wayne to license
everything from WMS at once. If you want to make new games and new
designes, you can't get around WMS as they have too many patents. And
their assemblies were good. It would have cost much more to develop a
ball through, pop bumper, .. which doesn't conflict with a patent of
WMS or Stern, and which does the job as good. And trying to negotiate a
license for every single part would take too much time. So therefor
Wayne just licensed everything, so he can use every part for his own
machine and even got the tools/designs so he doesn't have to develop
that himself. Also to have a foot in the door at distributors, who'll
be happy not to punch in new codes to order parts in their inventory
systems and can order 'original' parts again.
And as the artwork was included, he's just protecting that investment.
>From october on we'll see what he does with it and if he really sells
and produces something.

But as I try to say: people repro'ing parts now should try to work
something out with either Wayne or IPB. And if it doesn't work out,
then try to stay underneath the radar..

Aeneas
--http://www.flipers.be
August 2, 2005 1:12:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

LOL - now that's a good one!
August 2, 2005 1:19:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Look at it this way - he paid an American company money (IMPORT) and he
hasn't recvd any income by making an selling parts (EXPORT). At this
point the USA is way ahead in the deal. Until he makes any parts - and
there are no signs he will - the USA will still be ahead in this game.

This will be interesting - Gene vs. Wayne - as far as the cost of these
parts. I sure would like to hear what Steve Young or any of the big
Vendors have to say on this topic...
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 8:29:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Mark_in_PA wrote:
> We haven't heard from a single supplier about this.

Any supplier who has a competent attorney or contacts one would be told
not to post any response to the claim of copyright, because that simply
shows the supplier is on notice of the claim. Please understand I am
not expressing any opinion as to the validity or lack of validity as to
the claim, but why should a supplier go on record as knowing of the
claim being asserted? After all, from my limited knowledge of the
field of copyright law, I believe the burden is on the person claiming
the infringement to prove the person doing the infringing had notice...
and I believe that is generally given in the form of a Cease and Desist
letter sent certified mail, return receipt requested. IMHO
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 7:37:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Well Steve you're correct too, I also feel he could consider more his
customer relations, try to build a positive image for himself in the
pinball world..

On the other hand, RGP is not the whole pinball world, although some
here seem to think it is.
Whatever Wayne or Gene do or say, some people will always complain
about it. Even if they release new parts or playfields, quality will
not be good enough, or they'll find something else to complain about
(value of their nos parts lowers because of the repros). So pleasing
all of RGP and not getting one bad reply is for anyone impossible to
do. Just too many different people here.

If I recall correct, Wayne started the whole pinball business because
Stern didn't want to make him a distributor and he could make his own
games cheaper ?
Seems like Australia as a market is already large enough for him then.
He won't need RGP to survive. And being nice here may help him sell a
few more parts, but in the end, if people need a part badly they'll
probably buy it anyway, he doesn't have to be friends with all of us.

Upgrades about what Wayne does are nice, but if he says he ordered
thousands of pcb's and other parts, people just seem to reply they
don't believe it before they see it.
And yes - I'm also like that, getting parts from China/India or moving
assembly there may make parts/games cheaper, but I have my doubts about
the quality.
If I were Wayne I would also not be motivated anymore to try to be nice
to rgp and keep people updated if that's all you get as an answer. And
not telling everything in public what he does sounds a safe thing to
do, as Gary Stern (and maybe other competitors, like Suzo which also
makes replacement parts) will also read everything.

Compare to what Stern does, no replies to RGP, and they say
distributors and operators are their main business, not collectors.

Wayne is the essentially the same (and therefor using the Bally name,
keeping part numbers the same, ..).
His main business is to make his new games. Distributors are who he'll
be nice to. That's who he needs to survive.

And because he got all the rights to older games, which he needed to
make his new games (and he's a collector himself probably and knows we
need parts), he's just trying to recoup his initial investment. Every
$1000 earned on making playfields or old parts, is $1000 less that he
has to make with his new games. And every $1 he gets because someone
repros a decal, is also profit for him because he has the rights it.

But catering to collectors and ie selling old playfields is not his
main business. Compare it to Williams and gambling machines - pinball
was in the end a way to provide money to the gambling department, which
was their main business.
In the same way I think making these old parts is just an extra for
Wayne, and his new pinball machines are his only main business.

Anyway, this is all my opinion - I can be totally wrong. I have no
special information from Wayne, can't read his mind.. but that's what I
think is going on based on what I know of this industry and what I've
read here..

Aeneas.
--http://www.flippers.be
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 7:42:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

We just don't know what's going on.. maybe the seller did work out a
deal, or just doesn't care.

Or maybe he found a loophole - after all as long as you don't use
trademarked words like 'Medievel Madness' (tm) there's nothing wrong..
Only i.e. if the font type is very specific maybe it could be
considered as art, but if it's a regular font type, all he does is
selling words and numbers drawn in circles or boxes.. imo it's
difficult to claim copyright on that.

Aeneas.
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 9:21:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Those items were _never_offered by a manufacturer because
they never existed. This is a part designed to _repair_a
damaged game, not original.

Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
====================================

Eisner wrote:
> Something interesting that I found out is that if I do reproduction
> target decals, I would be stopped from doing so but there are still
> insert decals being made and nothing is done about thoes.
>
> I am not against them being made, I just point out an inconsistancy in
> what is being stopped and what is being allowed.
>
> David...
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 1:42:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

> Upgrades about what Wayne does are nice, but if he says he ordered
> thousands of pcb's and other parts, people just seem to reply they
> don't believe it before they see it.
> And yes - I'm also like that, getting parts from China/India or moving
> assembly there may make parts/games cheaper, but I have my doubts about
> the quality.

Why would you have your doubts about the quality of parts made in Japan
or India? Look around man. Just about everything you use is made there!


I think I heard or read somewhere that Wayne's opinion on RGP reflects
what you said at the beginning of this response. RGP is but a small
part of the pinball community. People crying and bitching on this group
will not affect him at all. He will simply work through distributors
and people out there needing their games fixed will simply have a
distributor or technician involved with a distributor fix it using his
parts.

I really hate to see situations where the nose is cut off to spite the
face. Everyone is blasting Wayne but no one knows any real info but
Wayne himeself. Shouldn't the people in this group sit back, buy from
their current suppliers and repro people and just see what happens
after October?

Doug
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 2:32:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

On 3 Aug 2005 09:42:23 -0700, "Kansas Pinball"
<cyberolds1@comcast.net> wrote:

[...]

>
>I really hate to see situations where the nose is cut off to spite the
>face. Everyone is blasting Wayne but no one knows any real info but
>Wayne himeself. Shouldn't the people in this group sit back, buy from
>their current suppliers and repro people and just see what happens
>after October?

I'm hoping that a Chinese based black market in pinball parts springs
up. It would be fun to watch the lawyers stop that.
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 3:04:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

it could be named....
"the pinball black market"

anyone got a friend in china who wants to be the main player ;-)

everyone sells their stuff through 1 guy, i website. :-)

Pinlicious ( ...there is no spoon.)
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 3:19:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

"Eisner" wrote:
> Something interesting that I found out is that if I do reproduction
> target decals, I would be stopped from doing so but there are still
> insert decals being made and nothing is done about thoes.
>
> I am not against them being made, I just point out an inconsistancy in
> what is being stopped and what is being allowed.
>
> David...

As I understand it, "insert" decals aren't considered "art", per se-
basically lettering- numerals/letters- that sort of thing.

You can't copyright the letter "A", nor the phrase "when lit", nor the shape
of the letter "X" regardless of what font/size/color it's printed in.

A picture (image of a face, etc.) printed on an insert might be different.
A larger phrase, "Shoot vault to lock balls." on an insert might be
questionable as it's a verbatim copy of a work already produced.

It's sort of a "gray" area, but so far it doesn't look like an issue of
copyright violation for them to be made/sold w/o licensing.

Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com

We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 3:24:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

"Fred Kemper" wrote:
> Those items were _never_offered by a manufacturer because
> they never existed. This is a part designed to _repair_a
> damaged game, not original.
>
> Fred

But I don't think that excuses anything from copyright protection. If the
side-art on Indiana Jones was never originally a decal (or even if it was),
that doesn't mean you can reproduce the artwork (scan, print) and sell it.
That is a violation of copyright because you're copying a work that belongs
to someone else.

If "Ford" never made a tie-clip with it's logo on it, it doesn't mean you
can take Ford's logo and make tie-clips with it on, and sell those. You're
copying their logo, and that is a violation of copyright.

Insert decals are a gray area- some are just letters, or just numbers-
those, as I understand it, aren't considered "art", so can be reproduced
without copyright issues. Some are phrases, some have images printed on,
etc. Those may be more in the area of being protected by copyright.

Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com

We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 3:24:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

It doesn't have to be in China to be difficult to shutdown. :) 

Ping

Koz Pinlicious wrote:
> it could be named....
> "the pinball black market"
>
> anyone got a friend in china who wants to be the main player ;-)
>
> everyone sells their stuff through 1 guy, i website. :-)
>
> Pinlicious ( ...there is no spoon.)
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 3:35:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Nor do I, but the issue at hand was "license to make parts".
The arguement thus far has been for making the _same_ parts
that were/are offered from the OEM.

"Copyright" goes into something else altogether.

Again, no real clear definition of what these people want/expect.

Just _more_speculation.

Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
===========================


Ray Johnson - Action Pinball wrote:
> "Fred Kemper" wrote:
> > Those items were _never_offered by a manufacturer because
> > they never existed. This is a part designed to _repair_a
> > damaged game, not original.
> >
> > Fred
>
> But I don't think that excuses anything from copyright protection. If the
> side-art on Indiana Jones was never originally a decal (or even if it was),
> that doesn't mean you can reproduce the artwork (scan, print) and sell it.
> That is a violation of copyright because you're copying a work that belongs
> to someone else.
>
> If "Ford" never made a tie-clip with it's logo on it, it doesn't mean you
> can take Ford's logo and make tie-clips with it on, and sell those. You're
> copying their logo, and that is a violation of copyright.
>
> Insert decals are a gray area- some are just letters, or just numbers-
> those, as I understand it, aren't considered "art", so can be reproduced
> without copyright issues. Some are phrases, some have images printed on,
> etc. Those may be more in the area of being protected by copyright.
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 3:45:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I think most bases have been covered pretty well in this thread, but I
really don't unerstand where some people think they are entitled to
reproduce patented and copyrighted parts and artwork. I don't care how
badly you need them, if it's illegal, then you probably aren't going to
get them unless those reproducing the parts are willing to pay for
selling what isn't theirs.

I don't think it's Wayne's responsibility to let others reproduce parts
or provide any information on his intentions to the pinball community.
Of course, like everyone else, I would like to know what is going on,
but Wayne is under no obligation to keep us informed. The same holds
true for letting others reproduce parts. I need parts for my pins,
too, but that doesn't mean that the IP owner has the obligation to
provide parts or let others do it. Hey, why not complain about the
'black market' manufacturers who haven't worked out a deal with Wayne?
I'm sure the decals, plastics, and other parts would be of a higher
quality if they had the origianl artwork files to work from.

There are alot of people demanding that Wayne put his business plan on
RGP for review and criticism. Is anyone here volunteering to put their
personal or business information on RGP for all of us to critique?

Of course, it's only my opinion, and we all have strong convictions in
what we believe. I just hope that all of the parties involved work
things out and we continue to get high quality reproduction parts.

Steve
August 3, 2005 4:58:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Well it depends... Artwork can be copyrighted. And so can fonts... but
how many different Ariel and Helvetica fonts are there. Too much grey
area to bother.

Cheers
MacMan

In article <1123071697.867854.72810@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"Fred Kemper" <pbgarage@davlin.net> wrote:

> Those items were _never_offered by a manufacturer because
> they never existed. This is a part designed to _repair_a
> damaged game, not original.
>
> Fred
> TX
> CARGPB#8
> ====================================
>
> Eisner wrote:
> > Something interesting that I found out is that if I do reproduction
> > target decals, I would be stopped from doing so but there are still
> > insert decals being made and nothing is done about thoes.
> >
> > I am not against them being made, I just point out an inconsistancy in
> > what is being stopped and what is being allowed.
> >
> > David...
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 7:21:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I think most bases have been covered pretty well in this thread, but I
really don't understand where some people think they are entitled to
reproduce patented and copyrighted parts and artwork.


Two things in this comment are worth disecting for what it's worth.

"People", a variable. It's human nature to make things, to invent, to
copy, to promote, and to boast. Laws are not made by the people. So
many times I have to just sit back and shake my head. If "the people"
made the laws that refelct on our everyday life there would be a lot
less laws, cops, judges, lawyers, courthouses, heavily fortified police
stations, or for a better word, "waste". As an indivivual a person
weighs out what they do as "for the good of the people" against what
some bureaucrat wants. It's called "being an American".

Why is it everyone thinks they are such a law abiding citizen? You
break laws everyday. There are so many on the books they can get you
for almost anything.

These copyrights and patents that are spoken of. How much actual money
are we talking? It's minimal. Damn folks, were talking about
collectors, not the entire world population here. Add up all the games
that were made prior to Stern's games, and subtract about 50% as junked
or parted out. Take out 25% of those to cover who just play them and
don't give a damn if thier tray liner has a scratch or not. Take out
another 10% as there isn't enough interest or quantity of that
particular title left to cover initial costs of repro. I estimate you
are under 15% of what was ever made left in the world that I think
anyone would give a damn about it not looking pristine.

There's more effort in it than reward. So what it's against the law,
what isn't? How many rolling stops did you make today while driving
around?

Mario
Pinthetic
!