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a scary experiment

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December 15, 2003 1:02:52 PM

you know, it's Chrirstmas Vacation! so I got nth to do at home. I re-read some THG's articles, the "AMD Athlon 64 and FX51 vs P4EE" sth like that (forget the title :tongue: )
by downloading the short movie that they shown, I saw how P4 and A64 are protected against heat problem
then i'm curious, Athlon XP should have heat protection right??
In my mobo manual, it says it has "Thermal Protection" for AMD AthlonXP, which will shut down the computer when the CPU is higher than a certain temperature that I set.
There you go! by curiousty, I was trying if it really works..
I shut down the computer, and unplug the CPU Fan. Start the computer, get into Bios and set the limit temperature to 70C. Get into Windows, I start the program that monitoring cpu temperature, it's now at 39C.
oh, by the way, it's a XP2600+ (333FSB@2.08Ghz)
I started SUPER PI, and let it calculate..
39..40..41..42..43..44..and so on, the temperature keeps increasing.
when it hits 50, I can barely touch the heatsink for 2 secs!
50..51..52..53..54..55..keep increasing, when it reaches 71C, the computer didn't shut down
so i was thinking "oh well, the thermal protection is not working as MSI said"
while I was thinking to shut down the PC manually, "POOF", the computer shuts down suddenly, I didn't do anything, it's just gone.
wow, great, it's working! I should be happy to see..but wait..
I opened the case, plug the cpu fan back, push the power button. The computer doesn't turn on.
What is going on? I turn on and off PSU, push power button again, not working. I push the rest button, not working
geez, did I just fry my CPU or mobo?? :eek: 
I reset the Bios a few time, push the buttons again. It just won't turn on. I leave it cool down for about 5min, do everything I just mentionned again..
IT'S NOT WORKING, the computer just won't start, nth happens
geez..I'm gonna have to spend money I just earn to buy a new PC again...
wait, maybe I should try last thing, I remove the heatsink and CPU from motherboard, I put both of them outside (it's -10C outside)
I wait about 3 min, I bring them back, and installed them as it should..
I push the power button..
it's working! computer starts as it should.
"oof.." I won't need to spend money again..but on the other hand, i just lost another reason to get a nForce2 mobo to replace my KT333 .. :tongue:
Finally, just want to know if any of you ever tried this kind of things? I have no money, i'm not dare to do what THG did..remove the heatsink while it's running :smile:
AND, I'm not dare to try this again..
Another reason I tried this is because one of my friend is using the same board, he told me that his computer often crashes for no reason, he thinks it should be heat problem, cuz after his computer crashes, he said the Temperature is at 67C (in Bios), so I wanted to tell him whether the mobo is able to protect cpu or not..


-AMD Athlon XP 2600+ (333FSB@2083Mhz)
-MSI KT3-Ultra2, VIA KT333 based
-Micron DDR-SDRAM PC2700@ 2.5/2/2/5
-Sapphire Radeon8500LE 250/500
-Sound Blaster Audigy
-Enermax 350W PSU

More about : scary experiment

December 15, 2003 1:18:43 PM

I think the problem is the heat-sink material you used from your space ship, it is incompatible with the ions in the earths BIO-Sphere. I recommend going back to your planet with the receipt and fill out the full liquid metal complaint form at the front desk......That CPU is deader then a Clingon Targ.........................Anyone else posts to this I will personaly slap them!!

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December 15, 2003 2:02:43 PM

Learn how to spell Klingon, p'tak.

<font color=red> If you design software that is fool-proof, only a fool will want to use it. </font color=red>
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December 15, 2003 3:23:48 PM

Bet you will not do that again.
December 15, 2003 3:40:49 PM

Go back to collecting fairy dust!

<font color=blue>If the <font color=yellow>laurel</font color=yellow> is to big for your head, it becomes a hoola-hoop, and you have to keep your butt really busy.</font color=blue>
December 15, 2003 6:24:59 PM

didn't you watch that old thgc video that showed the thermal protection cannot react fast enough to shut down the cpu (btw isn't it crazy my piii has a feature that your AXP doesn't)?


If it isn't a P6 then it isn't a procesor
110% BX fanboy
December 15, 2003 7:07:50 PM

I did something similar with a blow torch. My PC was running, I didn't unplug the fan, and I angled my blowtorch directly on the heatsink fins. It caught a few of my power supply cables on fire and toasted one of my IDE ribbon cables. It also burned a f***ing hole in my MB. I think my thermal goo held up nicely though (AS).

The d*** thing didn't work afterwards no matter what I did... but I think that had mostly to do with the foam stuff I had to spray in there to put the flames out. I highly recommend investing in fire retardent IDE ribbon cables if you decide to duplicate my experiment.

My next experiment is going to be on a PC for the tub. Think of all the nerds that would be encouraged to bathe regularly lately if they could wash with their PC in front of them!
December 15, 2003 7:18:27 PM

i hope you are joking...


If it isn't a P6 then it isn't a procesor
110% BX fanboy
December 15, 2003 7:26:12 PM

What, about the bathing part? :D 
December 15, 2003 10:04:17 PM

no I won't..that's why I called it "scary experiment" :eek: 
December 15, 2003 10:12:53 PM

yes I did..that's another reason why I did it ONLY without cpu fan and not removing heatsink as well..
December 15, 2003 10:16:31 PM

Quote:
Anyone else posts to this I will personaly slap them!!

why? although I did sth stupid, why you have to slap people if they post to it?
December 15, 2003 11:02:26 PM

How fast was the temp rising, i suppose with the heatsink on it really shouldn't rise THAT fast. Anyhow, i think i'll hold on to my tully for now...


If it isn't a P6 then it isn't a procesor
110% BX fanboy
December 15, 2003 11:09:43 PM

It was supposed to be a joke Nights_L, not like a Robin Williams joke but more like British Humour like Monty Pythons Flying Circus.

gee I hope he doesn't ask me to explain what a Monty is or even the flying circus part ;) 

Barton 3200+ 400MHz
A7N8X Deluxe
Liquid
2x512 KinstonHyperX PC3200
GeForce FX5900
Maxtor DiamondMaxPlus9@80Gig
SONY CD 52x
SONY RW 52x/24x/52x
SONY DVD 16x/40x
December 16, 2003 12:08:57 AM

A similar thing happened to my Celeron 1.2 GHz. It has a Tualatin core, which turns off the CPU when it gets hotter than 72 degrees.

I'm cooling it passively with a Zalman flower cooler. One day I wanted to test if it still stayed cool if I removed my (very slow and noiseless) case fan. Well, a tiny bit of airflow really made a big difference because it exceeded the critical temperature after some benchmarks.

But it was really creepy that it didn't want to start any more even after installing the case fan again and waiting till the heatsink was touchable again. Only many minutes later it started up again.

So, either the core stayed really hot for a long time, or there's some kind of extra safety in it that doesn't allow you to start again right after the termal incident.

I find it strange though that my processor and your motherboard show the same behaviour...
a b à CPUs
December 16, 2003 1:49:02 AM

THG removed the sink while the system was running for a very good reason: To prove that the protection mechanism would work should a system get knocked over, I believe. You see, it's VERY common in the office environment for a system to get knocked over, and these heavy heatsinks often pop off when this happens. Forget special 4 point mounted coolers, we're talking about standard office systems. It's been the contention of companies like Dell that Intel systems are better for such use because of situations like this.

There are additional reasons for Dell not to go AMD, such as earlier backorders, etc, problems with VIA chipsets, etc, and incentives from Intel. For those later reasons Dell has become Intel's right arm! But Dell isn't the "only" large supplier of office systems.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
December 16, 2003 2:04:50 AM

Re: and incentives from Intel.
That's the key here everything else is just a poor excuse in-order to justify the ends. That and Intel pays for a good portion of there advertising with the intel inside tune on their adds. Dell needs advertising in a big way (no stores)

Dell has no excuse for ripping consumers off with the celron systems they sell which could contain a cheaper and better performing athlon.

I hate Dell.

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
a b à CPUs
December 16, 2003 2:58:14 AM

IN fact Dell has had several "excuses"
1.) Until last year, ALL AMD chipsets were problematic garbage. Dell doesn't change that fast
2.) The likelyhood of heat damage
3.) AMD had shipping shortages, couldn't keep up with demand, which is why Gateway dropped them temporarily. Dell doesn't change that fast, they still remember.

#1 was the biggest deal, #3 was a HUGE factor. Oh, and let's not forget the incentives from Intel.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
December 16, 2003 3:21:51 AM

IN fact Dell has had several "excuses"

Well, at least your calling what they are Excuses..

Intel has had it's share of problems. remember rambus and the early recall for mother boards.. or the faulty p3 at 1giz THG helped them recall but it never really matterd cause intels big customer dell only ever shipped 2 or 3 comps with this CPU. Like I said Dell has no excuse ripping off uninformed consumers by selling the celeron system..

As far as I'm concerned dell just sugar coats their bull crap and probably always will.

The overheating argument can be addressed with a modern motherboard and bios somthing dell could easliy do with there expertise. Don't ya think?

Re: Until last year, ALL AMD chipsets were problematic garbage.

If this be true will Dell now change? I won't argue that Intel can make a great chip set or that Intel for the most part (times) offers the top performing CPU. But Dells stance is dispicable at least in my opinion.


If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
December 16, 2003 8:25:50 AM

dell doesnt need excuses for why they dont use amd chips, they need REASONS to switch to amd chips. why would they? intel is proven by the test of time to be reliable. and im not talking about system stability or speed.

wpdclan.com cs game server - 69.12.5.119:27015
December 16, 2003 1:02:40 PM

the temp was rising gradually, like 1 deg/2~3sec..so yeah, it didn't rise THAT fast
December 16, 2003 1:08:28 PM

even though my computer is not an office system, my pc still often get knocked, that's why i'm a bit worried
Just a question, what system are you using? AMD or Intel? and which one do you personaly prefer?
December 16, 2003 1:09:33 PM

Are the Celerons' protection mechanism as good as Pentium?
December 16, 2003 1:30:48 PM

What everyone should understand regarding DELL, is that there's more to being a PC manufacturer than performance. The average consumer doesn't know what a FSB is or any of the other common topics you find in this forum.

DELL and Intel have a partnership. There is the cost factor, Intel's ability to deliver processors and supporting MB's in a timely fashion (Dell uses Just-In-Time delivery for much of it's manufacturing process... meaning their suppliers stock them AS they need componants). This helps DELL keep their inventory low and their manufacturing process lean -- it's an operations goal manufacturers stive for... low/no inventory!

Can AMD accomodate this? How do average consumers feel about owning an AMD machine? It's certainly not DELL's job to support or advertise for AMD.

Whether or not somebody likes DELL, you should be impressed with what they've managed to do. My father was buying a PC and though I was more than happy to help him with problems, I suggested he buy a DELL. My biggest reason was that I felt good about the quality of their componants AND their level of support.

Has there EVER been a major manufacturer that successfully sold AMD processors in the majority of their machines? How well is AMD able to supply manufacturers? I suppose a manufacturer is forced to deal with AMD *and* a MB supplier, where DELL might be able to deal with Intel for both!

I own both AMD and Intel machines. I like AMD as an enthusiest, but I'm still not sure how/if they are going to break into the major manufacturing channels. I think MS's delay on their 64bit OS really screwed AMD out of a big lead they held over Intel with 64bit processing. I was thinking that 64bit processing was going to provide AMD with a way to pull some marketshare from Intel. This seems less likely now.
December 16, 2003 4:15:17 PM

Re: DELL and Intel have a partnership.

That's the key here is it not?

Every single issue can be addressed. Dell has the expertse to construct a reliable stable cheaper faster entry level system using AMD over the Celeron.

Why then won't Dell do this? because.... DELL and Intel have a partnership.


Re: There is the cost factor, Intel's ability to deliver processors and supporting MB's in a timely fashion (Dell uses Just-In-Time delivery for much of it's manufacturing process... meaning their suppliers stock them AS they need componants). This helps DELL keep their inventory low and their manufacturing process lean -- it's an operations goal manufacturers stive for... low/no inventory!

So your saying Dell has been in talks with AMD about the above concerns. We are not asking Dell to drop Intel here just just put amd into the mix. This is not going to happen anytime soon WHY>>>> because DELL and Intel have a partnership.

Dell has (gets) advantages being Intels biggest buyer and dealing exclusivly with Intel. I know it's a free market and Dell never has to deal with AMD.. But I hate all the rehtoric excusise people come up with about how bad AMD is..

If a jounalist were to ask dell are you now going to start including AMD in your production line. Dell cannot reply "DELL and Intel have a partnership" and we don't want to jeperdise that. They say instead somthing like (Dell uses Just-In-Time delivery for much of it's manufacturing process... meaning their suppliers stock them AS they need componants). This helps DELL keep their inventory low and their manufacturing process lean -- it's an operations goal manufacturers stive for... low/no inventory!

Other big OEM's use AMD with no problems if there are concerns they address them.. I'll call a spade a spade. In my opinion it's all bull the real reason is because.....DELL and Intel have a partnership.


If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
December 16, 2003 4:30:18 PM

Did'nt AMD fix the problem after the THG video? I tried taking off the heatsink on a new ASUS nforce2 mobo, one of the mobos that implement the fix, and nothing(bad) happened.

<font color=blue>If the <font color=yellow>laurel</font color=yellow> is to big for your head, it becomes a hoola-hoop, and you have to keep your butt really busy.</font color=blue>
December 16, 2003 5:54:11 PM

For starters, I want to say that I do not personally own a Dell, nor have I ever owned a Dell machine. The last machine I bought that was pre-assembled was a 75Mhz Gateway Pentium machine. I think a lot of Dells because I've got a lot of clients with Dell hardware and I know people who own Dells. One of my former college professors worked for Dell and used Dell's internal processes in many of his examples. I'm not a Dell Fanboy, but you only need to look at the numbers to be impressed.

I think Gateway was 100% Intel, then started to offer AMDs, and then backed off again. (I believe this is true, correct me if I'm wrong). Compaq/HP offers AMDs. IBM offers Intel processors for their PCs. Who else is a big player in PC manufacturing? Whoever it is, they have had their a$$ kicked all over the place by Dell. It's not because of the processors they offer.

Dell isn't in the "promote competition among chip manufacturers" business, they are in the business of selling PCs. They've done very well, carrying a <i>very</i> low amount of inventory and coming up with a top-notch manufacturing process.

The day Dell begins to lose marketshare because they don't offer AMD processors is the day you'll see a Dell AMD line. As long as Dell has a winning formula and can manage to grow, why change it?

AMD has an uphill battle. If they want to beat out Intel, AMD has to provide a compelling reason for people to buy their product and for PC manufacturers to sell it. The Opteron <i>might</i> have been that reason, if Microsoft hadn't screwed AMD by delaying their 64bit OS.

It has been proven for YEARS that AMD's price performance ratio advantage over Intel isn't compelling enough to sway the battle in their favor. Intel will just stick a Celeron or something out there to prevent AMD from sneaking in as a low-cost competitor.


I like AMD, my next processor will likely be an AMD processor. My main attraction to AMD has to do with price/performance and my ability to upgrade my MB with one of their newer processors. All the same, I can't think of a single reason why Dell would want to offer AMD processors right now.
December 16, 2003 6:21:15 PM

Quote:
I suggested he buy a DELL. My biggest reason was that I felt good about the quality of their componants AND their level of support.


*Snicker*

I'm sorry... I couldn't help myself.

Dell is like any other OEM... use the cheapest crap you can get away with. After working on hundreds of these things as a tech... 'quality' isn't something I'd equate with Dell more than with anyone else.

<font color=red> If you design software that is fool-proof, only a fool will want to use it. </font color=red>
December 16, 2003 6:36:21 PM

Quote:
Are the Celerons' protection mechanism as good as Pentium?

On the piii's it was/is exactly the same protection mechanism i assume the same is true for the p4.



If it isn't a P6 then it isn't a procesor
110% BX fanboy
December 16, 2003 6:37:03 PM

i'm not sure...


If it isn't a P6 then it isn't a procesor
110% BX fanboy
December 16, 2003 7:14:15 PM

too lazy to find all the articles but... <A HREF="http://www20.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20020509/kt33..." target="_new"> one on toms </A>

This article compares KT333 mobos.

Quote:
Less than half a year ago, Tom's Hardware Guide pointed out the lack of thermal protection with the video clip Hot Spot - How Modern Processors Cope With Heat Emergencies and only now are there the first signs of improvement. Following the video, AMD got down to the problem of thermal protection and came up with a simple switch mechanism. This IC logic is to be integrated on all motherboards starting June 10, 2002 - as long as the individual motherboard manufacturers want to get direct support from AMD, that is. Otherwise, AMD is giving no guarantees for overclocked CPUs that have died a thermal death. Among the latest test candidates, there are two motherboards that are equipped with overload protection (for Palomino and Thoroughbred cores). We were pleasantly surprised by Soltek and Asus boards, <b>both of which switched off immediately when the CPU cooler was removed during operation </b>

As was the case in my personal experiance.

<font color=blue>If the <font color=yellow>laurel</font color=yellow> is to big for your head, it becomes a hoola-hoop, and you have to keep your butt really busy.</font color=blue>
December 16, 2003 7:18:20 PM

I agree with most of what you are saying. Dell is pretty much #1 in sales so they are doing somthing right. I have no problems understanding why Dell uses this bussiness model (it works) as with any company bottom line is the dollar.

What I have a problem with is why Dell and some posters claim Dell only use Intel. It is not because AMD is bad (exploding cpu's, droping computers off a desk, shortages, bad chipsets, etc etc) those are just lame excuses..
It's the stratigic alliance and advatages they get with that partnership like Intel paying a portion of the advertising these OEM's so desperatly rely on, and being one of the chosen to market the performance crown p4ee etc etc..

The way I see it every time Dell sells a celeron they are putting intel and their partnership first and the uninformed consumer second.

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
December 16, 2003 7:40:53 PM

Quote:

Dell is like any other OEM... use the cheapest crap you can get away with. After working on hundreds of these things as a tech... 'quality' isn't something I'd equate with Dell more than with anyone else.

I have to disagree with that, I don't think it's even close... my former company was an HP/Compaq service center. You would not believe the number of Compaq Presarios we saw. It was so bad that my company eventually called compaq and told them we'd no longer service Compaq Presarios, only their business line. There is no way to fix junk.

I don't know about Gateways now, but they were putting together some pretty shoddy stuff too. E-machines and Packard Bell machines are known as being shoddily assembled without even saying anything.

My buddy, despite my protests, bought a Compaq Presario with an Athlon 1900 processor. A couple of months later, I cracked the case to see what was inside... viola, a 200W power supply!!! Piece of [-peep-]! It ended up killing a TI4400 and an ATI 9700 Pro before he bought a new power supply.

Presarios are the worst I've seen. Gateways were pretty bad for a while... they lost so many customers, I don't know if they've gotten better. I've got lots of clients who run hardware from different vendors and the Dell customers seem to do the best.

I can't think of a single OEM, outside of some of the specialty places that build gaming rigs, that I'd choose over Dell. Their business line is very solid for my clients too.

Still... I'll continue building my own, but for people who can't support their own stuff I'll continue to recommend Dell. I'm always impressed with their support... it's probably the best thing about Dell.
December 16, 2003 8:09:29 PM

"Presarios are the worst I've seen. Gateways were pretty bad for a while... they lost so many customers, I don't know if they've gotten better. I've got lots of clients who run hardware from different vendors and the Dell customers seem to do the best."

I want to chime in here and say this has been exactly my experience as well with my customers and in past work places. Dell has it's problems, but out of the big vendors, they win hands down in the reliability and support department in my experience.

You mentioned Packard Bell. UGH! Anyone who thinks Dell is garbage needs to get their hands on a Packard Bell. From the inadequate power supply, to the motherboards that seem little more durable than rice paper, I've never seen a Packard Bell I didn't hate. Okay, the rice paper comment is a bit over the top... If Dell is trash, then Packard Bell is every land fill in the world.

"Still... I'll continue building my own, but for people who can't support their own stuff I'll continue to recommend Dell. I'm always impressed with their support... it's probably the best thing about Dell."

I agree completely. Those without clue buying a PC, ought to get Dell if they are choosing from the big vendors(though I'd still recommend some smaller shops over Dell if they're open to that). I'd never buy one personally, nor would I recommend Dell to anyone capable of building their own system. But if I were setting up servers for non-tech customers, or doing a multiple desktop installation for non-tech customers, I'd recommend Dell completely and without hesitation.

It's worth noting I'm Compaq certified and went with AMD for my own processor needs, so I'm far from a Dell fanboy...

<i>The wrath of penguins shall be felt. No windows shall be left unbroken.</i>
a b à CPUs
December 16, 2003 10:20:31 PM

I have a mild preference for the P4, but recommend a lot of AMD systems to my friends (as a system builder, all my friends are clients). Also, I prefer nVidia chipsets, but that wasn't enough to sway me last time I made a purchase.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
December 16, 2003 11:28:54 PM

hahhahahahahahahahhahahahaha Kudos!! Nice one:) 

The one and only "Monstrous BULLgarian!"
December 17, 2003 2:33:32 AM

so your last purchase was a P4?
what are the reasons that make you recommend an AMD?
sry if I ask too much..just curious :tongue:
December 17, 2003 2:38:11 AM

Quote:
I tried taking off the heatsink on a new ASUS nforce2 mobo, one of the mobos that implement the fix, and nothing(bad) happened.

You're brave! Anyway, if nothing bad happened, either ASUS or AMD implemented some sort of thermal protection mechanism...I'm not sure which one, though.

Damn Rambus.
December 17, 2003 2:38:13 AM

lol..haha, thanks~
do you think I should try to remove the heatsink while the system is running?? :eek: 
a b à CPUs
December 17, 2003 4:07:37 AM

Value, the last AMD system I built used an XP2400 which was cheap, an MSI K7N2 Delta-ILSR for it's onboard nForce APU, etc. It's a great system with great sound at a moderate price. Cheap RAM, etc, all cheap, using a 9 year old case with a Fortron 350W power supply (mostly for it's 120mm exhaust fan, needed to draw heat away from the CPU).

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
January 7, 2004 3:53:53 PM

LOL||||
NEWBIE....hehe...
I`m the friend who has a crash computer,
but now..fixed..the problem is only because my heatsink had too too much dust...LOL....

-AMD Athlon XP 2000+ (133FSB@1698Mhz)
-MSI KT3-Ultra2, VIA KT333 based<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by NiGHTsC on 01/07/04 07:12 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
!