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Windows CE surpassed Palm OS in marketshare!

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November 26, 2004 2:13:24 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Windows CE knocks Palm OS off the top spot
Microsoft takes PDA operating system lead for the first time

Robert Jaques, vnunet.com 15 Nov 2004

Microsoft's Windows CE has knocked Palm off the PDA operating system
sales top spot for the first time, newly released market research has
revealed.

According to the latest report from Gartner, PDA shipments exceeded
2.8 million units in the third quarter of 2004, as Windows CE licences
surpassed the Palm OS for the first time.

Windows CE was found to account for 48.1 per cent of worldwide PDA
shipments in third quarter of 2004. Palm OS units represented just
29.8 per cent of the market, down from 46.9 per cent in the same
period last year.

"The robust Windows CE market has been driven in part by the wide
choice of vendors," said Todd Kort, principal analyst at Gartner's
Computing Platforms Worldwide group.

"Business customers tend to steer clear of markets dominated by a
single supplier, which is where the Palm OS market stands today."

A decline in Palm OS shipments was expected in the third quarter of
2004, but not of this magnitude, Kort added. "The company is pouring
the vast majority of its resources into its smartphone business. A
reduction in the number of PDA models palmOne offers is expected in
2005," he explained.

The analyst firm found that PalmOne continued to lead the worldwide
market in PDA hardware shipments, but declined 13.3 per cent in the
third quarter of 2004.

PalmOne's market share totalled 26.2 per cent, but HP and Research In
Motion showed substantial increases in shipments in the third quarter
of 2003.

Overall, Gartner expects worldwide PDA shipments to total 11.9 million
units in 2004, up approximately four per cent from 2003.

http://www.vnunet.com/news/1159383
Anonymous
November 26, 2004 10:45:48 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

At risk of feeding the troll.


In article <809c07a5.0411252313.27b7345@posting.google.com>,
starsupernova@att.net (Chris) wrote:

> Windows CE surpassed Palm OS in marketshare!

My, my. Here's another interesting fact:

Chevy sales exceed Mercedes Benz!
November 26, 2004 7:46:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Doug Hoffman <dhoffman@journey.com> wrote in message news:<dhoffman-DD6B08.07454826112004@news.chatlink.com>...

> At risk of feeding the troll.
>

Why is it considered trolling to point out Windows CE devices
surpassed Palm OS, according to one source?

You are engaging in reverse-trolling, which is similar to
reverse-discrimination. My original message wasn't a personal attack
against anyone; it was merely pointing out someone's opinion.

I've always supported Palm OS devices from the beginning to now, by
the way. But in my opinion, Tungsten T5 will result in PalmOne's
demise, as this article implies.
Related resources
Anonymous
November 26, 2004 8:27:22 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

starsupernova@att.net (Chris) wrote:

> Windows CE was found to account for 48.1 per cent of worldwide PDA
> shipments in third quarter of 2004. Palm OS units represented just
> 29.8 per cent of the market, down from 46.9 per cent in the same
> period last year.
> [...]
> http://www.vnunet.com/news/1159383

That server is not responding, so I can't check the actual article for
more details. However, when I saw similar statistics last month, I found
that the people counting PDA shipments put the Treo in the "phone"
category, and didn't include it as a "PDA". Account for that and PalmOS
is still on top.
Anonymous
November 26, 2004 10:58:10 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

In article <809c07a5.0411252313.27b7345@posting.google.com>,
starsupernova@att.net (Chris) wrote:

> Windows CE knocks Palm OS off the top spot
> Microsoft takes PDA operating system lead for the first time
>
> Robert Jaques, vnunet.com 15 Nov 2004
>
> Microsoft's Windows CE has knocked Palm off the PDA operating system
> sales top spot for the first time, newly released market research has
> revealed.
>
> According to the latest report from Gartner, PDA shipments exceeded
> 2.8 million units in the third quarter of 2004, as Windows CE licences
> surpassed the Palm OS for the first time.

"Shipments" not sales. Companies such as HP can stuff their channels to
make their books look better. They do it for PCs, for example. Shipments
do not equal sales.

The NPD Group found that the share of the retail market grew for the Palm
OS, and that the Palm OS is the market share leader based on *sales.* "...
U.S. unit share for Palm Powered handhelds in September 2004 was 76
percent, exceeding that of all of its competitors combined, and gaining
roughly 10 points since September 2003."

http://palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=7300

Make sure to compare apples with apples.
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 12:36:37 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 23:13:24 -0800, Chris wrote:

> Windows CE knocks Palm OS off the top spot Microsoft takes PDA operating
> system lead for the first time

Great! And how does this matter, at all, to most of us?

I don't buy my devices because of the market share, I buy them
because they serve a very specific need I have. Since WindowsCE/PocketPC
do not support any of my platforms, they are the wrong device, right from
the start. Add to that the fact that their UI, applications, memory
management, battery life, size, weight, and price are all completely
ridiculous, that further reinforces my decision to stay with Palm devices.
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 12:39:44 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:46:25 -0800, Chris wrote:

> But in my opinion, Tungsten T5 will result in PalmOne's demise, as this
> article implies.

As long as you are comfortable knowing your opinion is wrong, you're
fully entitled to have it ;) 

Seriously though, I can't think of one company with a large portfolio of
products, that has "met their demise" by making one bad decision. That's
how businesses grow, by making spectacular, good, mediocre, and bad
decisions.

Palm has been around since 1996, as you know.. for 8 years, they've held
the lead in the market. Just because WindowsCE devices are higher in
percentage (reflected ONLY because of the number of independent vendors
making devices with PocketPC on them, not popularity), does not mean
they're going to die as a company.

Use your head, and your business degree, if you have one.
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 12:44:11 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Thu 25 Nov 2004 11:13:24p, Chris, wrote:

> Overall, Gartner expects worldwide PDA shipments to total 11.9
million
> units in 2004, up approximately four per cent from 2003.
>
> http://www.vnunet.com/news/1159383

Oh, now I see. The source is Gartner Group. They're one of the few who
found SCO *really, really* did have a case against IBM -- helping SCO's
stock to jump at the time (and, "oh, incidentally," helping M$ in their
FUD campaign against Linux). We've since seen that their claims about
Linux and SCO were bogus -- and now, it appears, these claims for
Windows CE are also skewed (if not outright fabrications). Figures
don't lie, but liars figure.

In actual retail sales (where people can choose), Palm OS has grabbed
an even bigger chunk of the market in the last quarter.

--
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
November 27, 2004 1:26:31 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Chris wrote:

> Windows CE knocks Palm OS off the top spot
>
> ...[snip]...
> "Business customers tend to steer clear of markets dominated by a
> single supplier, which is where the Palm OS market stands today."
>
> ... [snip] ...

Err, who else supplies Windows CE/PPC besides MicroSoft?????
And who is really competing with HP for the hardware component?


--
--
Rory
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 2:47:41 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

In article <Xns95AD8BBCCBDEezboard1lycoscom@130.133.1.4>, RonB
<ronbNOSPAM@bliz.org> wrote:

> On Thu 25 Nov 2004 11:13:24p, Chris, wrote:
>
> > Overall, Gartner expects worldwide PDA shipments to total 11.9
> million
> > units in 2004, up approximately four per cent from 2003.
> >
> > http://www.vnunet.com/news/1159383
>
> Oh, now I see. The source is Gartner Group. They're one of the few who
> found SCO *really, really* did have a case against IBM -- helping SCO's
> stock to jump at the time (and, "oh, incidentally," helping M$ in their
> FUD campaign against Linux). We've since seen that their claims about
> Linux and SCO were bogus -- and now, it appears, these claims for
> Windows CE are also skewed (if not outright fabrications). Figures
> don't lie, but liars figure.

Too bad the "industry analyst" industry isn't regulated. Companies such as
Gartner are rife with conflicts of interest. They "research" how bad
companies are and they sell "consulting" services to the same companies to
help them get "better." The companies buy their services with the hope of
getting better reviews in the future.
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 7:03:55 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Let's not continue to feed the troll. It is what he wants. The best
reaction is none.
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 7:11:19 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

In article <809c07a5.0411261646.3a5d1402@posting.google.com>,
starsupernova@att.net (Chris) wrote:

> Doug Hoffman <dhoffman@journey.com> wrote in message
news:<dhoffman-DD6B08.07454826112004@news.chatlink.com>...
>
> > At risk of feeding the troll.
> >
>
> Why is it considered trolling to point out Windows CE devices
> surpassed Palm OS, according to one source?

Because that's not what the source said. And because the implication you
drew is not backed by other research.

The source says shipments of PPC devices exeeded those of the Palm OS.
That does not mean they have *sold* more. Neither is one data point
indicative of a trend.

Other sources, that track sales, show that Palm OS devices sold far in
excess of PPC devices.
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 7:32:53 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Fri 26 Nov 2004 03:47:41p, Guy Bannis, wrote:

> Too bad the "industry analyst" industry isn't regulated. Companies
> such as Gartner are rife with conflicts of interest. They "research"
> how bad companies are and they sell "consulting" services to the same
> companies to help them get "better." The companies buy their services
> with the hope of getting better reviews in the future.

I totally agree.

--
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
November 27, 2004 11:00:40 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

"David A. Desrosiers" <hacker@gnu-designs.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.27.02.39.44.382056@gnu-designs.com>...
> On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:46:25 -0800, Chris wrote:
>
> > But in my opinion, Tungsten T5 will result in PalmOne's demise, as this
> > article implies.
>
> As long as you are comfortable knowing your opinion is wrong, you're
> fully entitled to have it ;) 
>

Your opinion is wrong that my opinion is wrong, but are entitled to
have it as well.


> Seriously though, I can't think of one company with a large portfolio of
> products, that has "met their demise" by making one bad decision. That's
> how businesses grow, by making spectacular, good, mediocre, and bad
> decisions.
>

You are obviously a clueless FREEWARE Palm developer who obviously
lives in a bubble and does not see reality. You work on GNU stuff like
plucker and think that everything is all great and well with PalmOne.
Have you EVEN read complaints about Tungsten T5 on various websites?
Every review is negative, including New York Times.

For a flagship model, T5 lacks

1. cradle
2. metal case
3. vibration
4. led light
5. OS 6 (it's been out for OVER a year now since PalmSource released
it)
6. wi-fi ($279 Dell Axim's have it STANDARD)
7. Original graffiti does not work on T5

Combine all that with extremely slow flash memory, and the buggy OS
5.4 it runs. OF COURSE you knew all this since you are probably
spending night and day getting your freeware to work on this poor
excuse for a PDA.

Visit major PDA websites first, read reviews of NORMAL everyday people
who are writing negative reviews about T5, and then comment on the
type of sales you think T5 will get. Then comment on your prediction
of the future of PalmOne, and learn of their demise.

It isn't just T5 either; Treo 650 has a similar buggy OS, slow flash
memory, hijacked Bluetooth which can only connect to headsets and
nothing else. (CONFIRMED with Sprint)

>
> Use your head, and your business degree, if you have one.

Hmm, that was uncalled for. GNU freeware troll, I have a degree in
something more useful than that in which I work for high-level U.S.
government researchers, thank you very much. I use my head more often
than you do, which is writing freeware GNU programs for a bunch of
cheapskates who don't buy real software packages.
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 1:17:28 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

I wrote:

> Let's not continue to feed the troll. It is what he wants. The best
> reaction is none.

My newsreader did not show Chris's follow-up. I went to Google Groups
and found it there. He is not a troll, apparently.

In article <809c07a5.0411261646.3a5d1402@posting.google.com>,
starsupernova@att.net (Chris) wrote:

> Doug Hoffman <dhoffman@journey.com> wrote in message
> news:<dhoffman-DD6B08.07454826112004@news.chatlink.com>...
>
> > At risk of feeding the troll.
> >
>
> Why is it considered trolling to point out Windows CE devices
> surpassed Palm OS, according to one source?

It surely read like a troll post, IMHO. It would have helped to have
also included the following (which you eventually did):

> I've always supported Palm OS devices from the beginning to now, by
> the way.


Regards,

-Doug
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 4:19:18 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

>Add to that the fact that their UI, applications, memory
>management, battery life, size, weight, and price are all completely
>ridiculous, that further reinforces my decision to stay with Palm devices.

I have owned PPC's and HPC's (even got a used Mobilepro 780 off of ebay this
week), and I have longed to buy a Dell Axim...but nothing these units have come
up with can ever convince me to part with my Sony Clie TH-55. >Add to that the
fact that their UI, applications, memory
>management, battery life, size, weight, and price are all completely
>ridiculous, that further reinforces my decision to stay with Palm devices. I
am not happy that Sony left the market...it weakened the market share for Palm
OS. Tapwave is more of a niche item. Then again, most of the PPC
manufacturers have bowed out of the market as well. Only HP and Dell are
significant players in that market anymore. With companies like Toshiba,
Uniden, Casio, Philips and many others having dropped the product from their
lines, it leaves PPC in kind of a lurch as well. Palm started out on its own,
and for the longest time, it was the only company making and selling Palm
devices. Then Hawkins went off and formed handspring, and we had the Visor (a
very cometent product). Then TRG, maker of memory upgrade products for Palm
devices, got into the game themselves...but not for very long. Sony came on
the scene, and now Tapwave. Only Palm and Tapwave remain. I think the real
question is...not whose market share is bigger or smaller, but where is the PDA
headed, as a device and consumer item, in the future?

My Clie not only does my PIM apps, but I use it to listen to music and
audiobooks, read ebooks, play games, as a multi-function calculator, photo
album and camera. It has amazing battery life, a great screen, fantastic
memory size (Palm requires so much less than PPC), fast response time and there
is no other PDA on the market that could entice me away from my beloved Clie.

$0.02

Mark
The Catman
>^..^<
isobutane@aol.com
www.geocities.com/mark_rosengarten
Owner/Coordinator of the Neko Ultraportable Solar Observatory
Fun WITH The Sun for Everyone!
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 5:00:47 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

After takin a swig o' Arrakan spice grog, guy@ether.net (Guy Bannis) belched out:
> In article <Xns95AD8BBCCBDEezboard1lycoscom@130.133.1.4>, RonB
> <ronbNOSPAM@bliz.org> wrote:
>
>> On Thu 25 Nov 2004 11:13:24p, Chris, wrote:
>>
>> > Overall, Gartner expects worldwide PDA shipments to total 11.9
>> million
>> > units in 2004, up approximately four per cent from 2003.
>> >
>> > http://www.vnunet.com/news/1159383
>>
>> Oh, now I see. The source is Gartner Group. They're one of the few who
>> found SCO *really, really* did have a case against IBM -- helping SCO's
>> stock to jump at the time (and, "oh, incidentally," helping M$ in their
>> FUD campaign against Linux). We've since seen that their claims about
>> Linux and SCO were bogus -- and now, it appears, these claims for
>> Windows CE are also skewed (if not outright fabrications). Figures
>> don't lie, but liars figure.
>
> Too bad the "industry analyst" industry isn't regulated. Companies
> such as Gartner are rife with conflicts of interest. They "research"
> how bad companies are and they sell "consulting" services to the
> same companies to help them get "better." The companies buy their
> services with the hope of getting better reviews in the future.

Unfortunately, coming up with a way to "regulate" them would likely
have unforeseen and unfortunate side-effects.

It would mean that every "publicly stated opinion" (based on some
definition of that) would have to be somehow 'touched' by the
regulations.

A way would have to be introduced to police it, which might easily be
_way_ worse than the present situation.

You might need to be somehow "licensed" in order to say things in
public. For this to be an "objective" process that a government
agency could deal with would require that "competence" be evaluated in
some bureaucratic fashion. There are plenty of disasters to be found
there...
--
output = reverse("moc.liamg" "@" "enworbbc")
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/lisp.html
Programming is one of the most difficult branches of applied
mathematics; the poorer mathematicians had better remain pure
mathematicians. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
November 27, 2004 5:24:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 10:17:28 -0500, Doug Hoffman
<dhoffman@journey.com> removed the duct tape and proclaimed:

>I wrote:
>
>> Let's not continue to feed the troll. It is what he wants. The best
>> reaction is none.
>
>My newsreader did not show Chris's follow-up. I went to Google Groups
>and found it there. He is not a troll, apparently.

He is a jerk, though.


--
"We have been following developments very closely
and are deeply disturbed by the extensive and
credible reports of fraud in the election"
- Colin Powell
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 7:06:22 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

In article <809c07a5.0411261646.3a5d1402@posting.google.com>,
starsupernova@att.net (Chris) wrote:

> Doug Hoffman <dhoffman@journey.com> wrote in message
> news:<dhoffman-DD6B08.07454826112004@news.chatlink.com>...
>
> > At risk of feeding the troll.
> >
>
> Why is it considered trolling to point out Windows CE devices
> surpassed Palm OS, according to one source?

Trolling is dropping a message in a newsgroup designed to elicit
negative responses. It's a kind of twisted way some people get their
jollies. What you did is analogous to posting in a Ford newsgroup that
Chevy sales are superior, according to one (unreliable) source. No, I
had you pegged correctly the first time. You are a troll.


> You are engaging in reverse-trolling, which is similar to
> reverse-discrimination.

Reverse trolling? Reverse discrimination? What on earth are you
babbling about?


> My original message wasn't a personal attack
> against anyone; it was merely pointing out someone's opinion.

Read definition of troll/trolling above. Has nothing to do with
personal attacks.


> I've always supported Palm OS devices from the beginning to now, by
> the way.

Oh yeah, right. Looking at other posts in this newsgroup I can see what
a huge supporter of Palm you are. For example:

starsupernova@att.net (Chris) wrote:
>Yeah wait 2-4 months, and your Tungsten E screen will start buzzing.
>The case will be all scratched up since the case scratches so easily.
>(Like Zire 72's case) Of course your 90 day warranty will be up, so
>there will be nothing you can do about it. But that's the point; they
>get your money, and you get a really expensive paper weight.

Do us all a favor and take your negativity and trolling elsewhere.
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 11:30:36 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Sat 27 Nov 2004 06:00:47a, Christopher Browne, wrote:

> After takin a swig o' Arrakan spice grog, guy@ether.net (Guy Bannis)
> belched out:

>> Too bad the "industry analyst" industry isn't regulated. Companies
>> such as Gartner are rife with conflicts of interest. They "research"
>> how bad companies are and they sell "consulting" services to the
>> same companies to help them get "better." The companies buy their
>> services with the hope of getting better reviews in the future.
>
> Unfortunately, coming up with a way to "regulate" them would likely
> have unforeseen and unfortunate side-effects.

But are the "likely unforeseen and unfortunate side-effects" reason to
not to try to rein them in at all? After all, we now have entities,
like Gartner Group, who can float bogus "facts" which can cause the
rise and fall of stock prices. It's fraud -- and isn't that already
illegal?

> It would mean that every "publicly stated opinion" (based on some
> definition of that) would have to be somehow 'touched' by the
> regulations.

Either that, or simply make entities like Gartner Group responsible for
the veracity of their "findings." After all, how many "research"
organizations are there like Gartner Group? And wouldn't conflict of
interest be a relatively easy thing to prove? Put them on notice -- you
lie to give your customers an unfair advantage -- which is fraud --
you'll be punished -- probably there are existing laws that could be
used here.

> A way would have to be introduced to police it, which might easily be
> _way_ worse than the present situation.

It could be. The new drug laws might actually make drug usage more
widespread -- but does that mean we give on drug laws altogether?

> You might need to be somehow "licensed" in order to say things in
> public. For this to be an "objective" process that a government
> agency could deal with would require that "competence" be evaluated
> in some bureaucratic fashion. There are plenty of disasters to be
> found there...

Or you might be able to use current agencies and current laws to keep
entities like Gartner Group from lying to promote their own customers
welfare (and, incidentally, their own) -- which is an obvious conflict
of interest and fraud.

--
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 11:41:21 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

In article <Xns95AE7F4424B85ezboard1lycoscom@130.133.1.4>, RonB
<ronbNOSPAM@bliz.org> wrote:

> On Sat 27 Nov 2004 06:00:47a, Christopher Browne, wrote:
>
> > After takin a swig o' Arrakan spice grog, guy@ether.net (Guy Bannis)
> > belched out:
>
> >> Too bad the "industry analyst" industry isn't regulated. Companies
> >> such as Gartner are rife with conflicts of interest. They "research"
> >> how bad companies are and they sell "consulting" services to the
> >> same companies to help them get "better." The companies buy their
> >> services with the hope of getting better reviews in the future.
> >
> > Unfortunately, coming up with a way to "regulate" them would likely
> > have unforeseen and unfortunate side-effects.
>
> But are the "likely unforeseen and unfortunate side-effects" reason to
> not to try to rein them in at all? After all, we now have entities,
> like Gartner Group, who can float bogus "facts" which can cause the
> rise and fall of stock prices. It's fraud -- and isn't that already
> illegal?

The kind of regulation appropriate for industry analysts should be pretty
much the same as that for Wall Street investment banks, security firms,
etc.

They perform the same kind of analyses. Their opinions, couched as "fact,"
definitely affect the fortunes of the companies they review. I don't see
why they're not already regulated by the SEC.

(Of course, regulation is difficult but it is a recourse, and does
represent protection for the consumer.)
Anonymous
November 29, 2004 9:52:02 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

"ROC" <NoSpam@for.me> wrote in message
news:r4Opd.2966$Mu3.644402@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> Chris wrote:
>
>> Windows CE knocks Palm OS off the top spot
>>
>> ...[snip]...
>> "Business customers tend to steer clear of markets dominated by a
>> single supplier, which is where the Palm OS market stands today."
>>
>> ... [snip] ...
>
> Err, who else supplies Windows CE/PPC besides MicroSoft?????
> And who is really competing with HP for the hardware component?
>
>
> --
> --
>
Dell and Toshiba on the hardware side. Perhaps others that I am not familiar
with.

TC
Anonymous
November 29, 2004 8:21:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

In article <mGzqd.6284$NU3.2758@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Tony
Clark" <curiousgeorge1964@hotmail.com> wrote:

> "ROC" <NoSpam@for.me> wrote in message
> news:r4Opd.2966$Mu3.644402@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> > Chris wrote:
> >
> >> Windows CE knocks Palm OS off the top spot
> >>
> >> ...[snip]...
> >> "Business customers tend to steer clear of markets dominated by a
> >> single supplier, which is where the Palm OS market stands today."
> >>
> >> ... [snip] ...
> >
> > Err, who else supplies Windows CE/PPC besides MicroSoft?????
> > And who is really competing with HP for the hardware component?
> >
> >
> > --
> > --
> >
> Dell and Toshiba on the hardware side. Perhaps others that I am not familiar
> with.

Their market shares? HP still "dominates" the PPC market.
Anonymous
December 5, 2004 8:54:53 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

I must say I've truly enjoyed this thread. Its good to see everyone so
passionate about this topic ;-) One thing that should be clearly pointed
out, however, is that the Gartner study is talking about Worldwide
marketshare and the NPD study is talking about U.S. marketshare. Palm has
historically led in both categories, but has always been stronger in the
U.S. than Worldwide.

Also, this Gartner article from Q104 adds some interesting info to the mix
because it includes PDA's with cellular capabilities. So this is a more
valid data set when trying to compare Palm OS vs. Windows CE marketshare.
Unfortunately, it too shows a 20% decline in the Palm OS compared to Q103.
At that time, Palm and CE were essentially tied at 40% of the market. Notice
that it was essentially RIM that came in and took Palm's shipments away. In
terms of actual shipments, CE stayed about the same (grew slightly) and Palm
dropped by about the number of shipments that RIM had (not quite, but
almost).
http://www.palmzone.net/modules.php?name=News&file=arti...

Now, back to the Gartner article at hand
(http://www.palmzone.net/modules.php?name=News&file=arti...). It
pulls OUT the Treo 600 and shows an even bigger decline in Palm OS sales. I
really wish they would have left those in there, so a true comparison could
be made. Why the iPAQ 6315 IS included is beyond me. Its no different than
the Treo's. This data can't really be used to make statements on Palm OS vs.
CE. Nor is it good data for predicting the demise or success of palmOne,
since it excludes the very products they are stating are their focus moving
forward. Gartner's main statement of interest with these statistics was that
smartphones are taking over and PDA's are falling off. Really, PDA's are
getting "smarter" (adding connectivity) as are phones (adding PDA features).
So its a convergence phenomenon.

The NPD study is real positive for Palm OS, as long as you only look at the
U.S. and exclude corporate sales. While Its reasonable and valid to weigh
the U.S. heavy since most of us live here, excluding corporate sales just
swings things too far. I bet the Mac OS would have a lot better marketshare
too if corporate PC sales were excluded.

Neither study, then, is any good for debating what we are trying to debate
here and that's unfortunate. Both sides are manipulating the stats. Why
can't some research firm actually look at U.S. and Worldwide total
shipment/sales? Or maybe you have to buy their study to get those numbers
;-)

Anyway, thanks for spurring on this interesting discussion. It has caused me
to write a follow-up article on PalmZone.net, since we originally covered
the Gartner report. This will give a more balanced view of the situation to
our readers.

http://www.palmzone.net/modules.php?name=News&file=arti...

--
tim@palmzone.net
http://www.palmzone.net
Check out the new fully interactive, community-based PalmZone.net!


"Guy Bannis" <guy@ether.net> wrote in message
news:guy-2611042011340001@192.168.1.100...
> In article <809c07a5.0411261646.3a5d1402@posting.google.com>,
> starsupernova@att.net (Chris) wrote:
>
>> Doug Hoffman <dhoffman@journey.com> wrote in message
> news:<dhoffman-DD6B08.07454826112004@news.chatlink.com>...
>>
>> > At risk of feeding the troll.
>> >
>>
>> Why is it considered trolling to point out Windows CE devices
>> surpassed Palm OS, according to one source?
>
> Because that's not what the source said. And because the implication you
> drew is not backed by other research.
>
> The source says shipments of PPC devices exeeded those of the Palm OS.
> That does not mean they have *sold* more. Neither is one data point
> indicative of a trend.
>
> Other sources, that track sales, show that Palm OS devices sold far in
> excess of PPC devices.
December 5, 2004 8:54:54 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:54:53 GMT, "Tim Nicholson"
<tim@pdainfosource.com> removed the duct tape and proclaimed:

><SNIP>

So Gartner is full of it, then.


--
I put 2 and 2 together and got 22.
Anonymous
December 6, 2004 11:46:27 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

In article <NXHsd.516994$D%.354392@attbi_s51>, "Tim Nicholson"
<tim@pdainfosource.com> wrote:

> I must say I've truly enjoyed this thread. Its good to see everyone so
> passionate about this topic ;-) One thing that should be clearly pointed
> out, however, is that the Gartner study is talking about Worldwide
> marketshare and the NPD study is talking about U.S. marketshare. Palm has
> historically led in both categories, but has always been stronger in the
> U.S. than Worldwide.

Gartner: worldwide share of *shipments*
NPD: share of *sales*
Anonymous
December 6, 2004 8:20:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Yes. Shipments vs. sales, but that is small compared to the fact one is
talking about worldwide marketshare and the other is talking about the US
only. I don't see how manufacturers could "stuff" their channels for any
extended period of time to sway the shipments vs. sales issue much. Maybe
for a quarter, but not sustained. Am I missing something here?

--
Tim Nicholson
tim@pdainfosource.com
Check out our MobileWeb Site Index at http://mobileweb.pdainfosource.com


"Guy Bannis" <guy@ether.net> wrote in message
news:guy-0612040046250001@192.168.1.100...
> In article <NXHsd.516994$D%.354392@attbi_s51>, "Tim Nicholson"
> <tim@pdainfosource.com> wrote:
>
>> I must say I've truly enjoyed this thread. Its good to see everyone so
>> passionate about this topic ;-) One thing that should be clearly pointed
>> out, however, is that the Gartner study is talking about Worldwide
>> marketshare and the NPD study is talking about U.S. marketshare. Palm has
>> historically led in both categories, but has always been stronger in the
>> U.S. than Worldwide.
>
> Gartner: worldwide share of *shipments*
> NPD: share of *sales*
Anonymous
December 6, 2004 11:08:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

In article <gx0td.453711$wV.174907@attbi_s54>, "Tim Nicholson"
<tim@pdainfosource.com> wrote:

> Yes. Shipments vs. sales, but that is small compared to the fact one is
> talking about worldwide marketshare and the other is talking about the US
> only. I don't see how manufacturers could "stuff" their channels for any
> extended period of time to sway the shipments vs. sales issue much. Maybe
> for a quarter, but not sustained. Am I missing something here?

The Gartner findings are only for a quarter ...

See analyses of HP's recent 27% increase in profits for the last quarter.
In the fine print, there is the usual concern that PC "profits" look
better because HP may have stuffed the channels ... again.
Anonymous
December 7, 2004 12:04:48 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

I'm with you on this. But when I researched things further, I came up with a
Q1 2004 Gartner report that still showed Palm's marketshare had dropped 20%
at that time as compared to Q1 2003. So this is really measuring a downward
trend from Q1 2003 all the way through Q3 2004. That's a long enough period
that I didn't think manufacturers could inflate their shipments.
http://www.palmzone.net/modules.php?name=News&file=arti...

Anyway, I understand your point which is that statistics can be manipulated
pretty much in any way to support whatever opinion you are trying to get
across. The fact that Gartner is unfair in its exclusion of the Treo's, but
inclusion of similar Pocket PC phones really slants things. And the NPD
study ignoring corporate sales and only looking at retail sales is silly
too.

Here is the article I wrote that pulled all these surveys together and tried
to point out how to interpret them. If I'm off base on anything, I'm happy
to update it. I'm just trying to help my readers understand these surveys
and what they do and don't mean.
http://www.palmzone.net/modules.php?name=News&file=arti...

--
Tim Nicholson
tim@pdainfosource.com
Check out our MobileWeb Site Index at http://mobileweb.pdainfosource.com


"Guy Bannis" <guy@ether.net> wrote in message
news:guy-0612041208570001@192.168.1.100...
> In article <gx0td.453711$wV.174907@attbi_s54>, "Tim Nicholson"
> <tim@pdainfosource.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes. Shipments vs. sales, but that is small compared to the fact one is
>> talking about worldwide marketshare and the other is talking about the US
>> only. I don't see how manufacturers could "stuff" their channels for any
>> extended period of time to sway the shipments vs. sales issue much. Maybe
>> for a quarter, but not sustained. Am I missing something here?
>
> The Gartner findings are only for a quarter ...
>
> See analyses of HP's recent 27% increase in profits for the last quarter.
> In the fine print, there is the usual concern that PC "profits" look
> better because HP may have stuffed the channels ... again.
Anonymous
December 7, 2004 2:48:36 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

In article <QP3td.214364$R05.36443@attbi_s53>, "Tim Nicholson"
<tim@pdainfosource.com> wrote:

> Anyway, I understand your point which is that statistics can be manipulated
> pretty much in any way to support whatever opinion you are trying to get
> across.

I don't feel that about statistics. Just wanted to point out what Gartner
is measuring.

Also, I don't think Palm (One/Source) should be confident right now ...
Anonymous
December 7, 2004 7:17:20 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw when "Tim Nicholson" <tim@pdainfosource.com> would write:
> Yes. Shipments vs. sales, but that is small compared to the fact one
> is talking about worldwide marketshare and the other is talking
> about the US only. I don't see how manufacturers could "stuff" their
> channels for any extended period of time to sway the shipments
> vs. sales issue much. Maybe for a quarter, but not sustained. Am I
> missing something here?

If there's one quarter that's vital to determining the big bonuses for
the year, then that will be the quarter that people will push to bias.
--
let name="cbbrowne" and tld="gmail.com" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;;
http://linuxfinances.info/info/x.html
The only problem
with Haiku is that you just
get started and then
Anonymous
December 8, 2004 8:43:45 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On 25 Nov 2004 23:13:24 -0800, starsupernova@att.net (Chris) wrote:

>Windows CE knocks Palm OS off the top spot
>Microsoft takes PDA operating system lead for the first time

Maybe a bunch of people are buying iPAQs to put Linux on them? :) 
!