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WMS Sys7 Power Supply - C10 Cap Size Question

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August 5, 2005 12:44:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

My BK game is resetting when I press either Flipper Button. I removed
the Power Supply and replaced it with a known working Power Supply and
now the game plays fine.

I want to replace this +5/12 Volt Filter Cap.

The spec calls for a 18000 mFd 20VDC capacitor.

The local electronics store here only has a 21000 mFd 20VDC cap.

Can I use this higher value (21000) in a Sys7 Power Supply?

NOTE: Clay gives a range btwn 12000 & 18000 for the Sys6 Power Supply
Cap (it uses a 12000) but no range is given for the Sys7 Power Supply
Cap.

Thanks
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
August 5, 2005 2:48:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Scott,

As your old cap's tolerance was probably rated for no better than + or
-10%, the old cap's range was 16200 to 19800 mFd.

So, 21000 mFd (nominal) is actually pretty close to the old cap's
higher tolerance.

In application like this, it's usually OK to go up in capacitance
rating. And, your voltage rating has stayed the same.

So, you should be fine with the new cap if you remember to observe
polarity.

--
PinTed


scott@farrar.com wrote:
> My BK game is resetting when I press either Flipper Button. I removed
> the Power Supply and replaced it with a known working Power Supply and
> now the game plays fine.
>
> I want to replace this +5/12 Volt Filter Cap.
>
> The spec calls for a 18000 mFd 20VDC capacitor.
>
> The local electronics store here only has a 21000 mFd 20VDC cap.
>
> Can I use this higher value (21000) in a Sys7 Power Supply?
>
> NOTE: Clay gives a range btwn 12000 & 18000 for the Sys6 Power Supply
> Cap (it uses a 12000) but no range is given for the Sys7 Power Supply
> Cap.
>
> Thanks
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
August 5, 2005 3:07:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Scott:

Really should not be a problem. Others may pipe in and get heavy on the
technicalities, but it is only 16% larger, not a big deal.

Chris

<scott@farrar.com> wrote in message
news:1123256673.247156.146670@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> My BK game is resetting when I press either Flipper Button. I removed
> the Power Supply and replaced it with a known working Power Supply and
> now the game plays fine.
>
> I want to replace this +5/12 Volt Filter Cap.
>
> The spec calls for a 18000 mFd 20VDC capacitor.
>
> The local electronics store here only has a 21000 mFd 20VDC cap.
>
> Can I use this higher value (21000) in a Sys7 Power Supply?
>
> NOTE: Clay gives a range btwn 12000 & 18000 for the Sys6 Power Supply
> Cap (it uses a 12000) but no range is given for the Sys7 Power Supply
> Cap.
>
> Thanks
>
Related resources
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
August 5, 2005 3:38:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Pinball Medic sells a replacement capacitor (15000 uf, 35 volt, High
Temp - 105 degree Celsius) and is in stock for $5 each. 35 volts is
higher then the stock 20 volt capacitor you are replacing and should
work for years in a Williams system 7 power supply board. They also
work on WPC driver boards.

Pinball Medic Amusements --- http://www.pinballmedic.net

Capacitor is listed on the PARTS page.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
August 5, 2005 4:09:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

The original cap isn't being made any more. The 21000uF cap should work
fine- I don't see any problems.

The replacement we use in all the games we restore and repair is a 15,000
uF, 50v unit. It's a lower charge but higher voltage and works excellent
for replacement in these games. This cap is a radial-lead mount (both leads
on one end) so you have to use jumper wires to connect it (held on by a blob
of silicone or tie-wraps), or on later Sys 11 power supplies, they made
mounting locations for both axial and radial lead caps- so just a "snap in"
setup on these.

We have these in stock- $9.95 ea. I think is the price- highly recommended.

Also, replace the bridge rectifier on that board at the same time- no point
doing the job halfway. The bridge actually fails more often than the cap,
but I always replace both together. We have heavier-duty 35a 400v
rectifiers which will far outlast and outperform the original (25a 200v).

See our site at: www.actionpinball.com for pictures, prices, online
ordering.

Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com

We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!



<scott@farrar.com> wrote:
> My BK game is resetting when I press either Flipper Button. I removed
> the Power Supply and replaced it with a known working Power Supply and
> now the game plays fine.
>
> I want to replace this +5/12 Volt Filter Cap.
>
> The spec calls for a 18000 mFd 20VDC capacitor.
>
> The local electronics store here only has a 21000 mFd 20VDC cap.
>
> Can I use this higher value (21000) in a Sys7 Power Supply?
>
> NOTE: Clay gives a range btwn 12000 & 18000 for the Sys6 Power Supply
> Cap (it uses a 12000) but no range is given for the Sys7 Power Supply
> Cap.
>
> Thanks
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
August 5, 2005 4:23:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

This is like religion and politics but my rule of thumb for filter caps is
you can go up with the capacitance within 20% and unlimited with the working
voltage (can go up but never down). The higher working voltage /
capacitance may mean a larger size capacitor. You are very ok with what you
are proposing.

Best Regards,

Bill
"Chris Munson" <chrismunson@bigtimecabinets.com> wrote in message
news:11f73p1qthkl65a@corp.supernews.com...
> Scott:
>
> Really should not be a problem. Others may pipe in and get heavy on the
> technicalities, but it is only 16% larger, not a big deal.
>
> Chris
>
> <scott@farrar.com> wrote in message
> news:1123256673.247156.146670@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > My BK game is resetting when I press either Flipper Button. I removed
> > the Power Supply and replaced it with a known working Power Supply and
> > now the game plays fine.
> >
> > I want to replace this +5/12 Volt Filter Cap.
> >
> > The spec calls for a 18000 mFd 20VDC capacitor.
> >
> > The local electronics store here only has a 21000 mFd 20VDC cap.
> >
> > Can I use this higher value (21000) in a Sys7 Power Supply?
> >
> > NOTE: Clay gives a range btwn 12000 & 18000 for the Sys6 Power Supply
> > Cap (it uses a 12000) but no range is given for the Sys7 Power Supply
> > Cap.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
>
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
August 6, 2005 4:31:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Based on the 12 volt input (ok, typically measures a hair under 12 for me)
and current draw -- the 18000uF caps that Williams installed were overkill.
A 12000uF or 15000uF capacitor should work just fine here. Don't go under
that 20 volt rating, though.

The 18000uF, 20V capacitors are no longer made. But, to replace them - you
can now buy 18000uF, 25V axial capacitors. CDE makes these -- part number
066X183U025JP2. I just got a quote for 400 of these two weeks ago - and
they weren't cheap! When I went to buy them last week... the barstards
hiked the price by 25% and would not stand by their quote. Told them to
take a flying leap....

Now looking to buy 15000uF, 25V axials from Illinois Capacitor. Plenty good
enough for a Williams System 3-11 machine.

You can probably go to the 21000uF cap. But, that's as high as I would go.
Going with a higher capacitance value puts more stress on your bridge
rectifier. The result of higher capacitance is a huge current spike during
a very brief recharge period. The larger the capacitor, the shorter the
spike interval... but also the larger the capacitor, the larger the spike in
amplitude. It is possible to degrade ... or kill... your bridge rectifier
due to too large of a filter capacitor AND a hefty load on the 5V supply.

-- Ed

<scott@farrar.com> wrote in message
news:1123256673.247156.146670@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> My BK game is resetting when I press either Flipper Button. I removed
> the Power Supply and replaced it with a known working Power Supply and
> now the game plays fine.
>
> I want to replace this +5/12 Volt Filter Cap.
>
> The spec calls for a 18000 mFd 20VDC capacitor.
>
> The local electronics store here only has a 21000 mFd 20VDC cap.
>
> Can I use this higher value (21000) in a Sys7 Power Supply?
>
> NOTE: Clay gives a range btwn 12000 & 18000 for the Sys6 Power Supply
> Cap (it uses a 12000) but no range is given for the Sys7 Power Supply
> Cap.
>
> Thanks
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
August 6, 2005 9:08:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I know you will yell at me ed, but i use 10,000 mfd 16 volt caps
all the time for these filter caps and it works just dandy. i get
them for like 70 cents each too, snap caps.

If you look at the 12/5 volt circuit, it's basically the same
as the WPC-95 circuit. And williams went to 10,000 mfd caps
for WPC-95. Why? i'm sure cost was somewhat of a factor, but
i think the main reason was In-Rush current. The in-rush with a
15,000 mfd cap is enormous. This puts lots of strain on the
power supply apparantly. 10,000 mfd still filters nicely but
with less in-rush. I use 10,000 mfd on nearly all brands of
games (they really all use the same linear 5/12 volt circuit)
including bally, gottlieb, williams, stern.

anyway i didn't do the math of the circuit, this is just my
experience. before i replace the cap, i set my DMM to 2 volts AC
and measure the AC. i often see .200 vac or even .500 vac.
Then i put a new 10,000 mfd 16 volt cap in and the VAC is
like .005 vac! to me that shows it's working pretty good.
(exception: sys3-sys6 power supplies will never show below
..200 vac no matter what cap is installed, because it is only
half wave rectified on the power supply.)

GPE wrote:
> Based on the 12 volt input (ok, typically measures a hair under 12 for me)
> and current draw -- the 18000uF caps that Williams installed were overkill.
> A 12000uF or 15000uF capacitor should work just fine here. Don't go under
> that 20 volt rating, though.
>
> The 18000uF, 20V capacitors are no longer made. But, to replace them - you
> can now buy 18000uF, 25V axial capacitors. CDE makes these -- part number
> 066X183U025JP2. I just got a quote for 400 of these two weeks ago - and
> they weren't cheap! When I went to buy them last week... the barstards
> hiked the price by 25% and would not stand by their quote. Told them to
> take a flying leap....
>
> Now looking to buy 15000uF, 25V axials from Illinois Capacitor. Plenty good
> enough for a Williams System 3-11 machine.
>
> You can probably go to the 21000uF cap. But, that's as high as I would go.
> Going with a higher capacitance value puts more stress on your bridge
> rectifier. The result of higher capacitance is a huge current spike during
> a very brief recharge period. The larger the capacitor, the shorter the
> spike interval... but also the larger the capacitor, the larger the spike in
> amplitude. It is possible to degrade ... or kill... your bridge rectifier
> due to too large of a filter capacitor AND a hefty load on the 5V supply.
>
> -- Ed
>
> <scott@farrar.com> wrote in message
> news:1123256673.247156.146670@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > My BK game is resetting when I press either Flipper Button. I removed
> > the Power Supply and replaced it with a known working Power Supply and
> > now the game plays fine.
> >
> > I want to replace this +5/12 Volt Filter Cap.
> >
> > The spec calls for a 18000 mFd 20VDC capacitor.
> >
> > The local electronics store here only has a 21000 mFd 20VDC cap.
> >
> > Can I use this higher value (21000) in a Sys7 Power Supply?
> >
> > NOTE: Clay gives a range btwn 12000 & 18000 for the Sys6 Power Supply
> > Cap (it uses a 12000) but no range is given for the Sys7 Power Supply
> > Cap.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
August 6, 2005 7:36:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Just to put in my $.02, MOUSER sells the axial 400v 150mfd caps for
$8.48 & 140mfd for 6.88 part # 75-53D400V150 or 140.

Screw terminal VISHAY 25v 12,000 mfd caps for $7.24
part#75-36DY123F025AA2A

Maybe that's to expensive for some, but you can't beat Mouser's
service & shipping speed.

Pinball Bob
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
August 6, 2005 7:52:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Oh, I'm not going to yell at you.
In fact, you seem to completely support my point of view - that the 18000uF
caps are too dang big.
But, that 16 volt rating is cutting it pretty close, though. And 70 cents
for a cap... hey, that's pretty cheap!

Problem is - the people that buy parts tend to scoff at me when I tell them
to go -smaller- in capacitance. I've given up on explaining things and just
decided to carry some of the overkill capacitors. Still... just might stick
with 10000 or 12000uF axial's at 25V and at a reasonable price. Hopefully,
far less than the $7+ each that CDE wanted for the 18000uF 25V axials.

And, while speaking of oversized capacitors...
The 160uF cap on the high voltage section of the older Bally and Stern
machines. Did the math on these and it looks like anything 80uF and higher
should work just fine. For the heck ofit - I bought a 47uF, 350V cap - and
it worked just fine as well... but I wouldn't recommend a replacement cap
this small for this supply. But, 100uF caps (which are far easier to find
in 350V rating) should be just fine here.

-- Ed


<cfh@provide.net> wrote in message
news:1123330126.944509.300370@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>I know you will yell at me ed, but i use 10,000 mfd 16 volt caps
> all the time for these filter caps and it works just dandy. i get
> them for like 70 cents each too, snap caps.
>
> If you look at the 12/5 volt circuit, it's basically the same
> as the WPC-95 circuit. And williams went to 10,000 mfd caps
> for WPC-95. Why? i'm sure cost was somewhat of a factor, but
> i think the main reason was In-Rush current. The in-rush with a
> 15,000 mfd cap is enormous. This puts lots of strain on the
> power supply apparantly. 10,000 mfd still filters nicely but
> with less in-rush. I use 10,000 mfd on nearly all brands of
> games (they really all use the same linear 5/12 volt circuit)
> including bally, gottlieb, williams, stern.
>
> anyway i didn't do the math of the circuit, this is just my
> experience. before i replace the cap, i set my DMM to 2 volts AC
> and measure the AC. i often see .200 vac or even .500 vac.
> Then i put a new 10,000 mfd 16 volt cap in and the VAC is
> like .005 vac! to me that shows it's working pretty good.
> (exception: sys3-sys6 power supplies will never show below
> .200 vac no matter what cap is installed, because it is only
> half wave rectified on the power supply.)
>
> GPE wrote:
>> Based on the 12 volt input (ok, typically measures a hair under 12 for
>> me)
>> and current draw -- the 18000uF caps that Williams installed were
>> overkill.
>> A 12000uF or 15000uF capacitor should work just fine here. Don't go
>> under
>> that 20 volt rating, though.
>>
>> The 18000uF, 20V capacitors are no longer made. But, to replace them -
>> you
>> can now buy 18000uF, 25V axial capacitors. CDE makes these -- part
>> number
>> 066X183U025JP2. I just got a quote for 400 of these two weeks ago - and
>> they weren't cheap! When I went to buy them last week... the barstards
>> hiked the price by 25% and would not stand by their quote. Told them to
>> take a flying leap....
>>
>> Now looking to buy 15000uF, 25V axials from Illinois Capacitor. Plenty
>> good
>> enough for a Williams System 3-11 machine.
>>
>> You can probably go to the 21000uF cap. But, that's as high as I would
>> go.
>> Going with a higher capacitance value puts more stress on your bridge
>> rectifier. The result of higher capacitance is a huge current spike
>> during
>> a very brief recharge period. The larger the capacitor, the shorter the
>> spike interval... but also the larger the capacitor, the larger the spike
>> in
>> amplitude. It is possible to degrade ... or kill... your bridge
>> rectifier
>> due to too large of a filter capacitor AND a hefty load on the 5V supply.
>>
>> -- Ed
>>
>> <scott@farrar.com> wrote in message
>> news:1123256673.247156.146670@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> > My BK game is resetting when I press either Flipper Button. I removed
>> > the Power Supply and replaced it with a known working Power Supply and
>> > now the game plays fine.
>> >
>> > I want to replace this +5/12 Volt Filter Cap.
>> >
>> > The spec calls for a 18000 mFd 20VDC capacitor.
>> >
>> > The local electronics store here only has a 21000 mFd 20VDC cap.
>> >
>> > Can I use this higher value (21000) in a Sys7 Power Supply?
>> >
>> > NOTE: Clay gives a range btwn 12000 & 18000 for the Sys6 Power Supply
>> > Cap (it uses a 12000) but no range is given for the Sys7 Power Supply
>> > Cap.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
August 7, 2005 1:12:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Wow!
That's REAL expensive for 150uF and 140uF capacitors. More than 2x what
that cap should cost.

That Vishay capacitor - that's the same one I use. I have a case of them on
order now... but not from Mouser.

-- Ed


<kul4skool1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1123367810.974362.173030@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Just to put in my $.02, MOUSER sells the axial 400v 150mfd caps for
> $8.48 & 140mfd for 6.88 part # 75-53D400V150 or 140.
>
> Screw terminal VISHAY 25v 12,000 mfd caps for $7.24
> part#75-36DY123F025AA2A
>
> Maybe that's to expensive for some, but you can't beat Mouser's
> service & shipping speed.
>
> Pinball Bob
>
August 11, 2005 11:32:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Thanks Ray - that worked.

I installed the new Cap (15,000 uF, 50v unit) and, while the game
played longer, it still locked up.

I measure the BR (35a 400v) while it was still attached to the board
and the nbrs were all over the place, however, still in spec.

I installed the BR and now my game doesn't lock up during game play.

Later
!