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XP or 64?

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January 19, 2004 11:55:33 PM

I'm doing a computer upgrade very soon (like, tomorrow morning?) and i'm still torn over which processor i'm going to pick up.

The Athlon XP 2500+ fits more into my needs and price budget (really, a bigger cpu doesn't increase game performance much anymore compared to graphics card), but the lack of upgrade potential is telling me to shy away a bit. I would basically need to get a whole new motherboard/cpu all over again if i ever wanted to upgrade.

The athlon64 3000+ is still 'sorta' in my price range (though pushing the evelope a bit), and the potential for increased performance in the future when more 64 bit applications come out really intrigues me. This suggests that i won't even have to upgrade in the future.. Also, having a new socket means i have the potential to just swap the processor in a year or so.

I was wondering if the potential to run 64bit applications seems to be worth it? And what type of upgrade potentials are on the horizon with the ahtlon 64? Or am i going to have to swap my motherboard out no matter what I do.. (in which case i'll go with the XP 2500+)

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a b à CPUs
January 20, 2004 4:11:32 AM

Get the XP2500+ and overclock it to 3200+ speed. ALL current boards will be outdated in a year, even A64 boards. To the scrap heap! PCI Express is replacing AGP all together and PCI eventually.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
January 20, 2004 4:21:43 AM

What do you have right now? Maybe just get some more ram, or put in a new cpu to tide you over a little while.

Some day I'll be rich and famous for inventing a device that allows you to stab people in the face over the internet.
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January 20, 2004 4:27:33 AM

bleh, I have an athlon 800 (slot A). This thing is NOT upgradeable.

the 'tide over' option is the xp2500+. I just wasn't sure if there was 'new mobo tech' on the horizon (such as pci express?)... since there is, looks like my next upgrade would include a mobo either way, so might as well go for the 2500+.
January 20, 2004 12:04:15 PM

you will be very happy with a 2500+

My own beast: Athlon 2700xp+ (oc: 3200xp+ with 200fsb) , Radeon 9800pro (oc: 410/370) , 512mb ddr400. SO MUCH faster than my last computer (pIII 550......)
January 20, 2004 1:38:24 PM

Go XP! The a64 has been a sham cause of the poor mobos for them. Both will be obselete in about a year or so. The XP will give you a much bigger bang for the buck.

Barton 2500+ @ 2200mhz (10x220 vcore @ 1.8)
Asus A7N8X Dlx 440 FSB
1gb Geil GD pc3500 Dual Channel (2-3-3-6)
Segata 80gb SATA 8.5ms seek
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro(420/720)
January 20, 2004 3:13:46 PM

Abit NF7-S + ACP 2500+ at 3200+ speeds it is then :) 

Some day I'll be rich and famous for inventing a device that allows you to stab people in the face over the internet.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 20, 2004 6:36:14 PM

> ALL current boards will be outdated in a year, even A64
>boards. To the scrap heap! PCI Express is replacing AGP all
>together and PCI eventually.

Hmmm.. just like AGP 1x replaced PCI graphics cards and you felt any compelling reason to ditch your motherboard and videocard back then to get a 440GX (or whatever the predecedor to the BX was called) and AGP 1x card? AFAIR, PCI cards (Voodoo) reigned the gfx world for at least a few years after the introduction of AGP. It wasnt until AGP 4x came along that it made a somehwat measurable difference over PCI. AGP 8x hardly gives any real world benefit over AGP x4, even today. I don't think PCI Express will be any different. A good thing eventually, but wait for the second or even thrid incarnation before you really want to upgrade to it..

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
a b à CPUs
January 20, 2004 9:34:03 PM

It's worse than that. It was worse than you're implying, and now it's worse yet.

To begin with, everything you said is wrong. The first Intel chipset to support AGP was the LX, it was AGP2x.

Now about implying that there wasn't any benefit until AGP4x, you can put a Radeon 9800XT on AGP2x and loose only a few FPS in most games compared to AGP8x. Also, AGP came out around the time of the nVidia Riva 128, an excellent card that nearly pushed 3DFX out of the market. The fact they followed it with the 128ZX, TNT, and TNT2 actually DID push 3DFX out of the market.

Now that we cleared up the past, let's look at the future: In the past, you could install your VooDoo3 into a PCI slot and ignore the AGP slot. But PCI-Express and AGP are exclusive to each other. So if you buy a PCI-Express board, it won't even HAVE AGP. That is, unless SiS finds a workaround.

But you're saying...keep the old board and buy new AGP cards as needed? ATI and nVidia have plans to quit producing high end cards for AGP motherboards. Think about it, what's the most powerfull PCI video card you can get, the Radeon 9100?

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 20, 2004 10:00:45 PM

>To begin with, everything you said is wrong. The first
>Intel chipset to support AGP was the LX, it was AGP2x.

Thx for refreshing my memory on that one

>Now about implying that there wasn't any benefit until
>AGP4x, you can put a Radeon 9800XT on AGP2x and loose only
>a few FPS in most games compared to AGP8x.

Which kind of proofs my point that the AGP interface isnt really a bottleneck for gaming, especially not a 8x one. If AGP is not a bottleneck, then PCI express won't bring any tangible performance improvements any time soon.

>Also, AGP came out around the time of the nVidia Riva 128, >an excellent card

Euh, no it wasnt. I had one, and it was far inferior to the Voodoo's of my friends for pretty much any game. Not too mention many games only supported Glide acceleration back then. But that is beside the point...

> TNT2 actually DID push 3DFX out of the market

Yeah, TNT2 finally overtook the Voodoo's, but mainly because 3DFX had not come up with any decent new product since the venerable Voodoo2. Not because of the superiority of nVidia's AGP cards versus 3DFX's PCI cards.

> In the past, you could install your VooDoo3 into a PCI
>slot and ignore the AGP slot. But PCI-Express and AGP are
>exclusive to each other. So if you buy a PCI-Express board,
>it won't even HAVE AGP.

If true, that begs the question how many people will line up to get a PCI express board that will not take their Radeon 9800 or GFFX card, and force them to buy a new videocard as well that uses an interface that doesnt bring them anything.
I see your point, and I have no doubt PCI express will indeed replace AGP, but I do not feel compelled to wait for it, or let it weigh upon my purchase decissions now, as I'm sure AGP is here to stay for a good while, and PCIXpress won't bring much, beside the necessity to ditch my expensive Radeon/GFFX.

Maybe I'm old, or conservative, but I didnt wait for PCI boards to hit the shelves, and worked hapily for years on my VESA local bus system. Didnt wait for SATA before buying a new motherboard either, and I still have no problem sourcing ATA disks or ATA optical drives. I didnt wait for AGP 8x boards to hit the shelves, and I am still quite happy with my AGP 4x performance.

Anyway, if I'm wrong then we are all suckers for buying high end AGP cards, since those are much more expensive than motherboards anyway, and if PCI Express takes off that quick, we won't be able to use it our new motherboards, but I doubt it will be that quick...

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
January 21, 2004 1:25:44 AM

Don't contradict Crashman! Nothing good could come of that.

My Rig:
AthlonXP 2000+ 1.677ghz
GeForce Verto FX5200 128mb DDR
Maxtor 7200RPM 80GB, Stock 40gb
Kingston 384MB DDR
Cendyne 52x24x52 CD-RW
Lite-On 4x DVD-RW
Go EMachines...:( 
a b à CPUs
January 21, 2004 1:52:51 AM

No, you've forgotten my point entirely: The question was asked if he should spend the extra cash for A64 in order to assure his platform lives longer than the nearly dead 462 platform, my response is that since either motherboard will be outdated at the end of the year, a new Socket 462 platform has nearly as much life left as a current A64 platform.

You're implying I'm telling him to wait, when what I'm really telling him is to buy for now, not the future, because either platform will be worthless in the not very distant future.

In fact, since everything changes this year, current A64 platforms are just as much a dead end as the old Socket 478! All the boards get replaced at once!

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 21, 2004 1:59:03 AM

Well, and I disagree. I don't see how PCI Express would kill his A64 platform, or its upgradeability. If he buys an AGP based motherboard now, you think he won't be able to upgrade to newer AGP cards for the next year or two at least ? -if he'd ever wanted/needed to. Its not because PCI express is around the corner, that AGP will die instantly, not by a long shot. Installed base is *way* to big to ignore for GFX manufacturers, and will remain for quite some time.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
January 21, 2004 2:09:15 AM

I agree with Crashman's post and get his point, however...

I'm in a similar situation myself. I believe I will choose the A64 over the XP solution because although I would like to try overclocking, I don't feel comfortable with it, and the A64 offers XP 3200+ performance without overclocking.

Plus for overclocking you need high performance parts. I believe the extra expense of a high-end motherboard, high quality paired RAM (PC3500 or better), nice heatsink and fan, etc., almost offsets the cost of buying an A64 and using a mid-grade motherboard, RAM (don't have to buy in pairs--yet), and stock cooling.

Also, it is not clear to me from AMD's roadmap whether Socket 754 will actually go away at the end of the year, or just will be the lower-cost alternative to the upcoming Socket 739.

In any case, I'm waiting to make my final move until the nVidia3 250 boards come out next month. I might still end up with the overclocked XP solution...

--
My system's too embarrassed to tell you about itself.
a b à CPUs
January 21, 2004 2:13:44 AM

OK, so disagree:
1.) Either platform (current A64 or XP) will support a current speed processor for another year. So will socket 478 platforms for that matter. Disaggree all you want, an XP3200+ will still be considered fast at the end of the year (just as an XP 2400+ is still considered fast now).
2.) Both platforms will die. The A64 will get replaced with a PCI-Express version, the XP platform will die off all together (as will the Socket 478).
3.) Both ATI and nVidia are committed to providing next years top cards ONLY in PCI-Express format.

Conclusion: Since ANY current platform is limitted to PCI/AGP, ANY current top platform will have similar relavence to the market next year. So your ONLY good choice is to buy for NOW.

One more thing: nForce2 chipsets are the best AMD chipsets on the market NOW. SiS is the best A64 chipset on the market but only ECS offers one with their 755-A. Soyo offers an ALi chipset board which is also a top performer, but they haven't been around long enough for me to give a solid recommendation (also Soyo has the worst RMA service I've ever seen, even though they do make some good boards).

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
a b à CPUs
January 21, 2004 2:17:31 AM

Wrong on the overclocking part. The reason for buying an XP2500+ instead of a 3200+ is to save money. You would use standard PC3200 for either the XP2500+ at 3200+ speed, or the 3200+. No need for expensive overclocking memory, not even PC3500.

So that's a matter of finances, the XP2500+ at 3200+ speed makes a lot more sense financially than the 3200+ or A64 versions.

If the nForce3 250 doesn't impress, there's always the 755, look for more 755 boards to be available by the time the 250 is.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
January 21, 2004 3:25:41 AM

Nvidia is talking about a bridge, so you can run your express card on your older mobo, can a bridge to run an agp card on express be far behind?
January 21, 2004 3:42:11 AM

or whatever the predecedor to the BX was called

I430 triton

I dont like french test
January 21, 2004 3:52:58 AM

.) Both ATI and nVidia are committed to providing next years top cards ONLY in PCI-Express format

I be happy to see a link for that.

I dont like french test
January 21, 2004 4:40:58 AM

eh, might as well state my decision.

Athlon XP 2500+
Abit AN7 mobo
1 stick of 512mb Kingston ram (forget that ddr stuff, paired ram is expensive and the performance increase is slight).

i saved a fair chunk of cash compared to the athlon64, which will EASILY cover any 'extra' costs i will have (and might have had even with the athlon64) in a year or so for more upgrading...
a b à CPUs
January 21, 2004 5:21:24 AM

Possible, but certainly sounds less than ideal.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
a b à CPUs
January 21, 2004 5:26:26 AM

I'd still go with the NF7-S for it's MCP-T southbridge with included nForce APU.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
January 21, 2004 5:28:31 AM

by the way for what type of use

I dont like french test
a b à CPUs
January 21, 2004 5:31:56 AM

Information gathered from various websites and product roadmaps from both companies. Tired of looking for links, look up the roadmaps yourself...all over the web.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
January 21, 2004 5:34:03 PM

That my point i look at most website from mainframe to desktop i saw a quote like that or a roadmap from any official.

I dont like french test
January 21, 2004 6:46:21 PM

Has anyone seen my ISA Slots I know I left them around here some place.......Let me see back when, when we had them things called ISA slots we used to run 2 phone modems at the same time in those ISA slots on old Intel rigs and I have to tell you if you ran 2 modems in shotgun (sideXside) in those old ISA slots we nearly had what are DSL speeds today.

That was before all the bandwidth locks came into play and your connection was open to all you could eat or your P.C could handle.

In the olden days those old ISA slots kicked some holy ass. Now I am stuck with 2 crumby ASUS A7N8X Deluxe motherboards with built in RJ45 1GHz 3-Com LAN and a separate RJ45 Nvidia LAN.

Ya I say we go back to the old days when things worked faster because we did not know any better ;) 

Barton 3200+ 400MHz
A7N8X Deluxe
Liquid
2x512 Crucial DDR 400 PC3200
GeForce FX5900
Two Maxtor 40Gig 8MB cach 7200rpm
SONY RW 52x/24x/52x
SONY DVD 16x/40x
January 21, 2004 7:52:51 PM

The reason most ISA modems were faster / better was the fact that they had a hardware COM port built in. Most PCI modems rely on the CPU to emulate a COM port... obviously eating up CPU cycles in the process. It is possible, though to get PCI hardware modems. If you're on 56K and even if you have a 3.0GHz machine, I think they're still worth the extra money you'll pay for one... especially if you play online games with your 56K connection.

<font color=red> If you design software that is fool-proof, only a fool will want to use it. </font color=red>
!