New Product: Display Saver Board

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

As I promised, there's a new mod coming from UFO Pinball. This is the
"mystery mod" that was presented at California Extreme.

The new mod is called the "Display Saver" board. It allows you to
decrease your display voltage in order to help preserve and prolong
the life of your pinball displays.

This board accomplishes this with NO SOLDERING, and gives you the
ability to reduce your display voltage in ~1 volt increments!!

If you tried to redo your power supply with the 1N4763A diode swap and
found that your displays wouldn't run properly at ~91 volts, you can
install this board and gradually adjust your display voltage down to a
point where your displays are still happy, yet also benefit from
running at a lower voltage.

This board should work on ANY Williams game prior to the WPC line. It
has been tested on all my System 11 era games, and a friend's System 6
game (F*irepower). This board should also work on Bally games that
were produced by Williams (again, prior to WPC) and even Data East
games prior to the Dot Matrix era. I have tested it on a 1990 DE
S*mpsons and it worked beautifully.

Lots more info is posted here:

http://www.ufopinball.com/

There are also some minor updates posted for the R*FM Mini-Saucer LED
kit ... which is still in development.

I plan to start taking presale orders for all the products listed on
the main page towards the end of August.

--
+-- Bill Ung --------------------------------------------+
| ÁTTÁCK FROM MÁRS: Come here, tasty human!! |
| The ÁFM Mini-Saucer LED mod kits second run is coming |
| soon!! R*FM Mini-Saucer LED kits are also on the way! |
| Visit: http://www.ufopinball.com/ for more info... |
+--------------------------------------------------------+

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

FWIW, the Pinball Lizard page you linked to
offers a product that already does this on
the earlier WMS power supply. It lowers the
voltage to 185vdc, provides protection in the
event of a short-to-ground, and a couple of
other neat things. This product doesnt work on
the later games that used the "smaller" power
supply. (List of games at the Liz site.) It is
not adjustable, but the other features incorporated
made that a non-issue.

Also, Is there some provision on your product
to guard against a high voltage shock or something
touching/shorting that area? A shield maybe?

Those jumpers look pretty scary!

Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
====================================
Bill Ung wrote:

> The new mod is called the "Display Saver" board. It allows you to
> decrease your display voltage in order to help preserve and prolong
> the life of your pinball displays.
>
> This board accomplishes this with NO SOLDERING, and gives you the
> ability to reduce your display voltage in ~1 volt increments!!
>
>
> This board should work on ANY Williams game prior to the WPC line. It
> has been tested on all my System 11 era games, and a friend's System 6
> game (F*irepower).

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Well. if a display won't light properly at ~ 185 vdc,
it is not any good, and should be replaced anyway.
I don't disagree with your logic that "lower is better",
but there is a limit. I've had no problems with any
of the games I've used the board in, and I've installed
quite a few over the years.

http://www.pinballlizard.com/id25.htm

You are mistaken. ONE jumper is required for each of
the two high power resistors. Everything else is simply
clipped off the board, no soldering. It is a piggyback
board that slips over the one connector on the power supply.
It is also reversable.

Yes, I did see the warning, but I was still concerned about
the hazard, and where would the board mount to avoid the danger.
A future owner may not see/understand what this board is, and
also miss the tiny warning on the board...

Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
=======================================

Bill Ung wrote:

> I have a number of System 11 era games, and each one has displays that
> perform differently. Some liked the new 91v display power, some did
> not. If the PinLiz board moves your displays down to a fixed voltage,
> I guarantee that it will not work for every display tube.
>
> It certainly will work for some, but if you have a display that can
> run even lower (and still look good), then I think you should have the
> option to do that. Might as well save your displays for as long as
> you possibly can. A fixed voltage won't give you that.
>
> Also, if I'm not mistaken, the PinLiz board requires a considerable
> amount of soldering. The pics show the entire high-voltage section
> removed from the power board. The Display Saver board requires no
> soldering and is completely reversable.
>

> There is also a big warning at the top of the Installation page that
> you may have missed:

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

On 11 Aug 2005 13:02:09 -0700, "Fred Kemper" <pbgarage@davlin.net>
wrote:

> FWIW, the Pinball Lizard page you linked to
>offers a product that already does this on
>the earlier WMS power supply. It lowers the
>voltage to 185vdc, provides protection in the
>event of a short-to-ground, and a couple of
>other neat things. This product doesnt work on
>the later games that used the "smaller" power
>supply. (List of games at the Liz site.) It is
>not adjustable, but the other features incorporated
>made that a non-issue.

I have a number of System 11 era games, and each one has displays that
perform differently. Some liked the new 91v display power, some did
not. If the PinLiz board moves your displays down to a fixed voltage,
I guarantee that it will not work for every display tube.

It certainly will work for some, but if you have a display that can
run even lower (and still look good), then I think you should have the
option to do that. Might as well save your displays for as long as
you possibly can. A fixed voltage won't give you that.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the PinLiz board requires a considerable
amount of soldering. The pics show the entire high-voltage section
removed from the power board. The Display Saver board requires no
soldering and is completely reversable.

> Also, Is there some provision on your product
>to guard against a high voltage shock or something
>touching/shorting that area? A shield maybe?
>
> Those jumpers look pretty scary!

Sorry, didn't mean to scare you.

There is no voltage protection on any other boards in the backbox, it
is a dangerous place to be while the power is on.

There is also a big warning at the top of the Installation page that
you may have missed:

http://www.ufopinball.com/DisplaySaver/install.htm

There is also a warning printed on the board itself:

http://www.ufopinball.com/DisplaySaver/Proto1.jpg

The board also has two fuses on it, one for +100v and one for -100v.

--
+-- Bill Ung --------------------------------------------+
| ÁTTÁCK FROM MÁRS: Come here, tasty human!! |
| The ÁFM Mini-Saucer LED mod kits second run is coming |
| soon!! R*FM Mini-Saucer LED kits are also on the way! |
| Visit: http://www.ufopinball.com/ for more info... |
+--------------------------------------------------------+

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Bill Ung <ung@nospam.com*> wrote:
: As I promised, there's a new mod coming from UFO Pinball. This is the
: "mystery mod" that was presented at California Extreme.
:
: The new mod is called the "Display Saver" board. It allows you to
: decrease your display voltage in order to help preserve and prolong
: the life of your pinball displays.
:
: This board accomplishes this with NO SOLDERING, and gives you the
: ability to reduce your display voltage in ~1 volt increments!!

It looks like you're just dropping in diodes to knock down the voltage,
but they're going to be burning power, since the current needed to drive
the display is going through them at all times.

A much nicer solution would be to build a piggyback HV board with
lm317/337 adjustable regulators with zeners in the tails, so the
user can continuously adjust the base voltage on the TO3 power
transistors and get much finer control of the voltage. This would
also get rid of the coponents in the power path, so it'd be a lot more
robust.

--
Mark Spaeth mspaeth@mtl.mit.edu
50 Vassar St., #38.265 mspaeth@mit.edu
Cambridge, MA 02139
(617) 452-2354 http://rgvac.978.org/~mspaeth

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

On 11 Aug 2005 20:58:42 GMT, "Mark C. Spaeth"
<mspaeth@plancherel.mit.edu> wrote:

>Bill Ung <ung@nospam.com*> wrote:
>: As I promised, there's a new mod coming from UFO Pinball. This is the
>: "mystery mod" that was presented at California Extreme.
>:
>: The new mod is called the "Display Saver" board. It allows you to
>: decrease your display voltage in order to help preserve and prolong
>: the life of your pinball displays.
>:
>: This board accomplishes this with NO SOLDERING, and gives you the
>: ability to reduce your display voltage in ~1 volt increments!!
>
>It looks like you're just dropping in diodes to knock down the voltage,
>but they're going to be burning power, since the current needed to drive
>the display is going through them at all times.

If you look at some of the later System 11 schematics, you will find
that there are already zener diodes installed on the +100v line that
feeds the displays. Part of the reason I went this route was that the
technology was already tested and in use.

I have also run the sample boards in my games for many months now. I
have not found any ill effects with this method.

What are the downsides to using this technique? The zener diodes do
not even get warm.

>A much nicer solution would be to build a piggyback HV board with
>lm317/337 adjustable regulators with zeners in the tails, so the
>user can continuously adjust the base voltage on the TO3 power
>transistors and get much finer control of the voltage. This would
>also get rid of the coponents in the power path, so it'd be a lot more
>robust.

I am honestly not familiar with those parts ... I did do a quick
search on Google, but the only datasheets I found showed parts that
are only rated for around 50 volts. I don't believe these will work
here.

--
+-- Bill Ung --------------------------------------------+
| ÁTTÁCK FROM MÁRS: Come here, tasty human!! |
| The ÁFM Mini-Saucer LED mod kits second run is coming |
| soon!! R*FM Mini-Saucer LED kits are also on the way! |
| Visit: http://www.ufopinball.com/ for more info... |
+--------------------------------------------------------+

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I think i see what mark is saying. my interpretation is that the
voltage is suppressed going to the display itself. This is what you
want to protect the display. However adding the diode to the already
existing path does nothing for the high voltage power supply and its
componets. you are still having the +/-100v generated its just being
dropped at the diode instead of the display.

For saving the display this is a great device because it is non
intrusive to the origional hv power supply board or the display itself
or any of the wireing for that matter. Also it provides the ability to
adjust the the voltage in small incriments. It may not be exactly 1v
incriments but hay this is not theory either this is reality and the
individual diodes properties. having the small voltage incriments is
the important part. It doesnt matter if it is exactly 1v or not.

Bill I think you have made a dandy little device for saving the life of
the displays.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Per the manual, the voltage on my Williams display is +100V and -100V
(nominal). Is the 185V below the sum of these voltages? If not, we are
talking different kinds of high voltage supplies here.

For my part, I think the Display Saver is a good idea. I might buy or
build one myself.

Fred Kemper wrote:
> Well. if a display won't light properly at ~ 185 vdc,
> it is not any good, and should be replaced anyway.
> I don't disagree with your logic that "lower is better",
> but there is a limit. I've had no problems with any
> of the games I've used the board in, and I've installed
> quite a few over the years.
>
> http://www.pinballlizard.com/id25.htm
>
> You are mistaken. ONE jumper is required for each of
> the two high power resistors. Everything else is simply
> clipped off the board, no soldering. It is a piggyback
> board that slips over the one connector on the power supply.
> It is also reversable.
>
> Yes, I did see the warning, but I was still concerned about
> the hazard, and where would the board mount to avoid the danger.
> A future owner may not see/understand what this board is, and
> also miss the tiny warning on the board...
>
> Fred
> TX
> CARGPB#8
> =======================================
>
> Bill Ung wrote:
>
>
>>I have a number of System 11 era games, and each one has displays that
>>perform differently. Some liked the new 91v display power, some did
>>not. If the PinLiz board moves your displays down to a fixed voltage,
>>I guarantee that it will not work for every display tube.
>>
>>It certainly will work for some, but if you have a display that can
>>run even lower (and still look good), then I think you should have the
>>option to do that. Might as well save your displays for as long as
>>you possibly can. A fixed voltage won't give you that.
>>
>>Also, if I'm not mistaken, the PinLiz board requires a considerable
>>amount of soldering. The pics show the entire high-voltage section
>>removed from the power board. The Display Saver board requires no
>>soldering and is completely reversable.
>>
>
>
>>There is also a big warning at the top of the Installation page that
>>you may have missed:
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Yes. The 185vdc is the sum total. Original is ~ 200vdc

The original supply often ran higher than 200vdc as well.

They are designed differently, not simply replacing a
zener or two, (re: the Pinball Liz replacement board).

--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************


"Dr. Edward Cheung" <ed@edcheung.com> wrote in message news:gdQKe.18809$0d.16929@trnddc07...
> Per the manual, the voltage on my Williams display is +100V and -100V
> (nominal). Is the 185V below the sum of these voltages? If not, we are
> talking different kinds of high voltage supplies here.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Bill Ung <ung@nospam.com*> wrote:
: On 11 Aug 2005 20:58:42 GMT, "Mark C. Spaeth"
: <mspaeth@plancherel.mit.edu> wrote:
:
:>Bill Ung <ung@nospam.com*> wrote:
:>: As I promised, there's a new mod coming from UFO Pinball. This is the
:>: "mystery mod" that was presented at California Extreme.
:>:
:>: The new mod is called the "Display Saver" board. It allows you to
:>: decrease your display voltage in order to help preserve and prolong
:>: the life of your pinball displays.
:>:
:>: This board accomplishes this with NO SOLDERING, and gives you the
:>: ability to reduce your display voltage in ~1 volt increments!!
:>
:>It looks like you're just dropping in diodes to knock down the voltage,
:>but they're going to be burning power, since the current needed to drive
:>the display is going through them at all times.
:
: If you look at some of the later System 11 schematics, you will find
: that there are already zener diodes installed on the +100v line that
: feeds the displays. Part of the reason I went this route was that the
: technology was already tested and in use.

A kludgge is a kludge, regardless of who did it first.


: I have also run the sample boards in my games for many months now. I
: have not found any ill effects with this method.
:
: What are the downsides to using this technique? The zener diodes do
: not even get warm.

You're using zeners? The lowest voltage zeners I've seen are 1.8V,
so you wouldnt' be able to get the 1V resolution you tout.

There's a fundamental difference in the physics between a zener diode
running in reverse avalance breakdown, and a diode (zener or otherwise)
in forward conduction dropping .7-1V.



:>A much nicer solution would be to build a piggyback HV board with
:>lm317/337 adjustable regulators with zeners in the tails, so the
:>user can continuously adjust the base voltage on the TO3 power
:>transistors and get much finer control of the voltage. This would
:>also get rid of the coponents in the power path, so it'd be a lot more
:>robust.
:
: I am honestly not familiar with those parts ... I did do a quick
: search on Google, but the only datasheets I found showed parts that
: are only rated for around 50 volts. I don't believe these will work
: here.

That's what the zener's for =-P

You need to wrap some protection diodes around it, to ensure that there's
never more then 35V or so differentially between terminals on the device,
but by dropping a zener underneath it, you can float the terminal voltages
almost arbitrarily high.

--
Mark Spaeth mspaeth@mtl.mit.edu
50 Vassar St., #38.265 mspaeth@mit.edu
Cambridge, MA 02139
(617) 452-2354 http://rgvac.978.org/~mspaeth

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

"Mark C. Spaeth" <mspaeth@plancherel.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:42fbd1e4$0$569$b45e6eb0@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...
> Bill Ung <ung@nospam.com*> wrote:
> : On 11 Aug 2005 20:58:42 GMT, "Mark C. Spaeth"
> : <mspaeth@plancherel.mit.edu> wrote:
> :
> :>Bill Ung <ung@nospam.com*> wrote:
> :>: As I promised, there's a new mod coming from UFO Pinball. This is the
> :>: "mystery mod" that was presented at California Extreme.
> :>:
> :>: The new mod is called the "Display Saver" board. It allows you to
> :>: decrease your display voltage in order to help preserve and prolong
> :>: the life of your pinball displays.
> :>:
> :>: This board accomplishes this with NO SOLDERING, and gives you the
> :>: ability to reduce your display voltage in ~1 volt increments!!
> :>
> :>It looks like you're just dropping in diodes to knock down the voltage,
> :>but they're going to be burning power, since the current needed to drive
> :>the display is going through them at all times.
> :
> : If you look at some of the later System 11 schematics, you will find
> : that there are already zener diodes installed on the +100v line that
> : feeds the displays. Part of the reason I went this route was that the
> : technology was already tested and in use.
>
> A kludgge is a kludge, regardless of who did it first.
>
>
> : I have also run the sample boards in my games for many months now. I
> : have not found any ill effects with this method.
> :
> : What are the downsides to using this technique? The zener diodes do
> : not even get warm.
>
> You're using zeners? The lowest voltage zeners I've seen are 1.8V,
> so you wouldnt' be able to get the 1V resolution you tout.
>
> There's a fundamental difference in the physics between a zener diode
> running in reverse avalance breakdown, and a diode (zener or otherwise)
> in forward conduction dropping .7-1V.
>
>
>
> :>A much nicer solution would be to build a piggyback HV board with
> :>lm317/337 adjustable regulators with zeners in the tails, so the
> :>user can continuously adjust the base voltage on the TO3 power
> :>transistors and get much finer control of the voltage. This would
> :>also get rid of the coponents in the power path, so it'd be a lot more
> :>robust.
> :
> : I am honestly not familiar with those parts ... I did do a quick
> : search on Google, but the only datasheets I found showed parts that
> : are only rated for around 50 volts. I don't believe these will work
> : here.
>
> That's what the zener's for =-P
>
> You need to wrap some protection diodes around it, to ensure that there's
> never more then 35V or so differentially between terminals on the device,
> but by dropping a zener underneath it, you can float the terminal voltages
> almost arbitrarily high.


There are other methods of voltage regulation out there - but I wouldn't go
the LM317 or LH317HV route.
When operating at a higher voltage than 60 (for the HV) -- these will work
fine as long as the differential between input and output is 60 or less.
These have built in short circuit protection. BUT - these fail
catastrophically (and violently!) when you have a higher voltage....say 100
or so.... and you short the output. BOOM! I know because I tried this to
see what would happen.

A better choice -could- have been the Texas Instruments TL783CKC. These
have a 150V max input and a 125V max output. Within the range of this
supply. However, TI has put out a trouble report regarding these where they
don't operate as well as advertised (funny they don't post it on their
website). If I remember right - it's regulation went bad under low loads.

-- Ed


>
> --
> Mark Spaeth mspaeth@mtl.mit.edu
> 50 Vassar St., #38.265 mspaeth@mit.edu
> Cambridge, MA 02139
> (617) 452-2354 http://rgvac.978.org/~mspaeth
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

On 11 Aug 2005 14:42:13 -0700, "Fred Kemper" <pbgarage@davlin.net>
wrote:

> Well. if a display won't light properly at ~ 185 vdc,
>it is not any good, and should be replaced anyway.

I'm confused. The displays run a +100/-100v. What does 185vdc mean?

If you mean the difference between the + and - voltages, then the
system was originally designed to run a 200vdc. I think that if you
lower the voltage to 185vdc and your displays can't handle it, then
you need to run them at a higher voltage, not throw them out!!

Saving working display tubes is the goal here...

>I don't disagree with your logic that "lower is better",
>but there is a limit. I've had no problems with any
>of the games I've used the board in, and I've installed
>quite a few over the years.

Which games in particular? I know Williams updated the circuits a
little over the years. The System 11 era games do already have some
zener diodes in the circuit, and are probably more susceptible to not
being able to handle such a significant drop in voltage. The System 6
game that I tested actually fared far better ... but then I think that
if you count ALL the zener diodes in the circuit, it was probably
pushing more voltage to the display tubes than the later games did.

> http://www.pinballlizard.com/id25.htm
>
> You are mistaken. ONE jumper is required for each of
>the two high power resistors. Everything else is simply
>clipped off the board, no soldering. It is a piggyback
>board that slips over the one connector on the power supply.
>It is also reversable.

Again, I am confused. If you clip everything off the high voltage
power board, how is this reversable?

> Yes, I did see the warning, but I was still concerned about
>the hazard, and where would the board mount to avoid the danger.
>A future owner may not see/understand what this board is, and
>also miss the tiny warning on the board...

Is this any different with the PinLiz board?

Don't get me wrong ... I certainly share your concern. However, there
is only so much I can do to prevent someone from poking fingers inside
an area known to be filled with dangerous voltages. If you see
something that you do not understand, I think the first inclination
should not be "poke it with your finger while the power is on".

Note for the record that the board is fused at 1/8 amp. I'm not sure
that's enough amperage to do any serious harm.

--
+-- Bill Ung --------------------------------------------+
| ÁTTÁCK FROM MÁRS: Come here, tasty human!! |
| The ÁFM Mini-Saucer LED mod kits second run is coming |
| soon!! R*FM Mini-Saucer LED kits are also on the way! |
| Visit: http://www.ufopinball.com/ for more info... |
+--------------------------------------------------------+

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

No, they are junk. Throw them out.

***
You are not simply raising the voltage to
the displays, you're raising the voltage to
the semi precious board components, (UDN7180s)
ALSO. So, what exactly are you trying
to save? The tube? The components are
the weak link, even by the specs and design.
200vdc is the upper limit for the ICs.

WMS tried changing this on several occasions.
Notice the "91v" zener. Later, they lowered voltages
to the DMD display games without much fanfare.
THAT was in an effort to save pieces, too. WMS
changed things all the time, and schematics and
game manuals often do not show this.

***
The board alteration is reversable as nothing is
altered on the board. You will just be replacing
normally damaged and stressed components
anyway. Unsolder the two jumpers, add the parts
that were removed. Normally, you would be purchasing
the Liz part to repair/replace a damaged high voltage section.

The bonus is the "stress" that the display driver board and
it's components are being freed of.

Of course, removing the LiZ board puts the HV section
back to *dead*, so it's back to what it was - dead....

***
What is different with your product is that it requires
a remote, non-stock mounting. An unexpected part
in an unexpected place. There is no difference in
the shock you might receive from either product.....!

A cheap plexi cover similar to the BLY/STN design
might do the trick. Just a suggestion.

--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************



"Bill Ung" <ung@nospam.com*> wrote in

> On 11 Aug 2005 14:42:13 -0700, "Fred Kemper" <pbgarage@davlin.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Well. if a display won't light properly at ~ 185 vdc,
> >it is not any good, and should be replaced anyway.
>
> I'm confused. The displays run a +100/-100v. What does 185vdc mean?
>
> If you mean the difference between the + and - voltages, then the
> system was originally designed to run a 200vdc. I think that if you
> lower the voltage to 185vdc and your displays can't handle it, then
> you need to run them at a higher voltage, not throw them out!!
>
> Saving working display tubes is the goal here...
>
> >I don't disagree with your logic that "lower is better",
> >but there is a limit. I've had no problems with any
> >of the games I've used the board in, and I've installed
> >quite a few over the years.
>
> Which games in particular? I know Williams updated the circuits a
> little over the years. The System 11 era games do already have some
> zener diodes in the circuit, and are probably more susceptible to not
> being able to handle such a significant drop in voltage. The System 6
> game that I tested actually fared far better ... but then I think that
> if you count ALL the zener diodes in the circuit, it was probably
> pushing more voltage to the display tubes than the later games did.
>
> > http://www.pinballlizard.com/id25.htm
> >
> > You are mistaken. ONE jumper is required for each of
> >the two high power resistors. Everything else is simply
> >clipped off the board, no soldering. It is a piggyback
> >board that slips over the one connector on the power supply.
> >It is also reversable.
>
> Again, I am confused. If you clip everything off the high voltage
> power board, how is this reversable?
>
> > Yes, I did see the warning, but I was still concerned about
> >the hazard, and where would the board mount to avoid the danger.
> >A future owner may not see/understand what this board is, and
> >also miss the tiny warning on the board...
>
> Is this any different with the PinLiz board?
>
> Don't get me wrong ... I certainly share your concern. However, there
> is only so much I can do to prevent someone from poking fingers inside
> an area known to be filled with dangerous voltages. If you see
> something that you do not understand, I think the first inclination
> should not be "poke it with your finger while the power is on".
>
> Note for the record that the board is fused at 1/8 amp. I'm not sure
> that's enough amperage to do any serious harm.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

On 11 Aug 2005 22:32:04 GMT, "Mark C. Spaeth"
<mspaeth@plancherel.mit.edu> wrote:

>Bill Ung <ung@nospam.com*> wrote:
>: On 11 Aug 2005 20:58:42 GMT, "Mark C. Spaeth"
>: <mspaeth@plancherel.mit.edu> wrote:
>:
>:>Bill Ung <ung@nospam.com*> wrote:
>:>: As I promised, there's a new mod coming from UFO Pinball. This is the
>:>: "mystery mod" that was presented at California Extreme.
>:>:
>:>: The new mod is called the "Display Saver" board. It allows you to
>:>: decrease your display voltage in order to help preserve and prolong
>:>: the life of your pinball displays.
>:>:
>:>: This board accomplishes this with NO SOLDERING, and gives you the
>:>: ability to reduce your display voltage in ~1 volt increments!!
>:>
>:>It looks like you're just dropping in diodes to knock down the voltage,
>:>but they're going to be burning power, since the current needed to drive
>:>the display is going through them at all times.
>:
>: If you look at some of the later System 11 schematics, you will find
>: that there are already zener diodes installed on the +100v line that
>: feeds the displays. Part of the reason I went this route was that the
>: technology was already tested and in use.
>
>A kludgge is a kludge, regardless of who did it first.

Why is it a kludge? Again, I have run these boards in my games for
many months now, including during a recent "League Night" at my house.
The games were on for several hours and did not exhibit any ill
effects.

Are there some symptoms that I should be looking for? How exactly is
this bad?

--
+-- Bill Ung --------------------------------------------+
| ÁTTÁCK FROM MÁRS: Come here, tasty human!! |
| The ÁFM Mini-Saucer LED mod kits second run is coming |
| soon!! R*FM Mini-Saucer LED kits are also on the way! |
| Visit: http://www.ufopinball.com/ for more info... |
+--------------------------------------------------------+

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

"mjmmx" <mjmmx@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1123820292.141548.128900@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I think i see what mark is saying. my interpretation is that the
> voltage is suppressed going to the display itself. This is what you
> want to protect the display. However adding the diode to the already
> existing path does nothing for the high voltage power supply and its
> componets. you are still having the +/-100v generated its just being
> dropped at the diode instead of the display.
>
> For saving the display this is a great device because it is non
> intrusive to the origional hv power supply board or the display itself
> or any of the wireing for that matter. Also it provides the ability to
> adjust the the voltage in small incriments. It may not be exactly 1v
> incriments but hay this is not theory either this is reality and the
> individual diodes properties. having the small voltage incriments is
> the important part. It doesnt matter if it is exactly 1v or not.
>
> Bill I think you have made a dandy little device for saving the life of
> the displays.
>

I agree. If you have a display that can't handle the lower voltages, step
it up. If they can handle lower voltage, step it down. The reduced voltage
does have an important advantage of helping to save them precious UDN7180A's
that have an absolute maximum rating of 100V.

-- Ed

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:58:04 -0500, "Fred Kemper"
<pbgarage@davlin.net> wrote:

> No, they are junk. Throw them out.
>
> ***
> You are not simply raising the voltage to
>the displays, you're raising the voltage to
>the semi precious board components, (UDN7180s)
>ALSO. So, what exactly are you trying
>to save? The tube? The components are
>the weak link, even by the specs and design.
>200vdc is the upper limit for the ICs.

I guess it's a toss-up, as both parts are hard to find. I would still
rather not throw out working tubes if they can be saved. I have lost
a few tubes, but I have yet to lose a display chip.

Right now, I have a board running in my Cyclone that has reduced the
voltage to +/- 95 volts (or 190vdc in your terms). I have working
displays, and my chips aren't being run at 200vdc.

> WMS tried changing this on several occasions.
>Notice the "91v" zener. Later, they lowered voltages
>to the DMD display games without much fanfare.
>THAT was in an effort to save pieces, too. WMS
>changed things all the time, and schematics and
>game manuals often do not show this.

Yes, I believe I stated this in a previous post. The design of my
board allows you to select different voltages than just 100v, or 91v.

> ***
> The board alteration is reversable as nothing is
>altered on the board. You will just be replacing
>normally damaged and stressed components
>anyway. Unsolder the two jumpers, add the parts
>that were removed. Normally, you would be purchasing
>the Liz part to repair/replace a damaged high voltage section.

I think your definition of "reversable" significantly differs from
mine. Reversal of my board takes only a minute, does not require
ordering of any new parts, and needs no soldering.

>The bonus is the "stress" that the display driver board and
>it's components are being freed of.

This holds true for my board as well. The voltage is reduced on the
way to the display driver board, before the display chips see it.

> Of course, removing the LiZ board puts the HV section
>back to *dead*, so it's back to what it was - dead....

You are assuming that it was dead in the first place. Many are not.
All of mine are humming along just fine. This product is aimed at
people who currently have working displays (tubes, chips, power) that
want to keep them that way. This board will help them do that.

Certainly if your HV power *is* dead, then by all means buy the PinLiz
product. I do state this on my site...

> ***
> What is different with your product is that it requires
>a remote, non-stock mounting. An unexpected part
>in an unexpected place. There is no difference in
>the shock you might receive from either product.....!

Sorry, but I just don't share this concern. PinLiz's board is also
non-standard, and it will draw just as much curiosity as any other
non-standard board would. Just because it sits where the old HV
section sat does not make it any safer. 12 months ago, I did not know
which secton of the power supply board was the HV section anyway.

Plainly put, if you know enough to know that this board is a non-
standard piece of equipment, then I think you'd know enough not to
touch it with the power on.

If you don't know enough to recognize that the board is non-standard,
then you're not likely to start messing around with things you
admittedly know nothing about.

Finally ... I'm thinking that if you decide to sell that game, you'd
probably remove the Display Saver board and transfer it to one of your
keeper games. Then you get to list your game for sale as having all
the original boards with no hacks ... totally untouched by a soldering
iron.

>A cheap plexi cover similar to the BLY/STN design
>might do the trick. Just a suggestion.

I will certainly keep it in mind...

--
+-- Bill Ung --------------------------------------------+
| ÁTTÁCK FROM MÁRS: Come here, tasty human!! |
| The ÁFM Mini-Saucer LED mod kits second run is coming |
| soon!! R*FM Mini-Saucer LED kits are also on the way! |
| Visit: http://www.ufopinball.com/ for more info... |
+--------------------------------------------------------+

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Bill Ung said:

>Right now, I have a board running in my Cyclone that has reduced the
>voltage to +/- 95 volts (or 190vdc in your terms). I have working
>displays, and my chips aren't being run at 200vdc.

Isn't the net result of +/- 95 VDC 190volts? So the display
glass/board components run at 190 volts - it's simply easier to make a
power supply pos and neg and just use those as the +voltage and -ground
voltage - looking at a random schematic for an sys11 era machine, the
only connections going to the glass are +90vdc and -100 vdc - no actual
"ground" there - it's like when you want your case fans in a computer
to spin faster, instead of ground, you hook it to the -5vdc line,
giving your fan 17vdc. Or, you want less noise and your fan to spin
slower, so you replace the ground (0volt) line with the +5vdc line,
giving your fan +7 volts. Maybe I missed it on the schematic or
reading marvin's repair guides, but that's the way I always understood
it.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

<seymour-shabow@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1123868865.987392.245700@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Bill Ung said:
>
>>Right now, I have a board running in my Cyclone that has reduced the
>>voltage to +/- 95 volts (or 190vdc in your terms). I have working
>>displays, and my chips aren't being run at 200vdc.
>
> Isn't the net result of +/- 95 VDC 190volts? So the display
> glass/board components run at 190 volts - it's simply easier to make a
> power supply pos and neg and just use those as the +voltage and -ground
> voltage - looking at a random schematic for an sys11 era machine, the
> only connections going to the glass are +90vdc and -100 vdc - no actual
> "ground" there - it's like when you want your case fans in a computer
> to spin faster, instead of ground, you hook it to the -5vdc line,
> giving your fan 17vdc. Or, you want less noise and your fan to spin
> slower, so you replace the ground (0volt) line with the +5vdc line,
> giving your fan +7 volts. Maybe I missed it on the schematic or
> reading marvin's repair guides, but that's the way I always understood
> it.
>

You're exactly right. That is why the Bally used only positive supplies and
referenced them to ground. It's the total voltage differential between the
pins on the display that lights them up. And that differential can be
either 190VDC to ground or +95VDC to -95VDC.

Bally used a set of transistors (Digit drivers) to make the positive
connection to +190VDC and they used a set of transistors (segment drivers)
to complete the connection to ground. Net result is approx 190VDC across
the display.

Williams used a split supply to do this function. The plus supply to the
digit drivers (6118's) and the minus supply to the segment drivers (7180's).
When both are turned on - you have a net of approx190 across the display.

They are both based on the same basic principle - I just think that the
Bally method was far more reliable and easier/cheaper to repair. It's far
easier to just rebuild one higher voltage section than two high voltage
sections.

-- Ed

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

On 11 Aug 2005 21:18:12 -0700, "mjmmx" <mjmmx@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I think i see what mark is saying. my interpretation is that the
>voltage is suppressed going to the display itself. This is what you
>want to protect the display. However adding the diode to the already
>existing path does nothing for the high voltage power supply and its
>componets. you are still having the +/-100v generated its just being
>dropped at the diode instead of the display.

This is partially true. The board is not lowering the input voltage
to the HV power supply, it lowers it on the way to the displays. I
don't know if the power supply sees the world any differently with the
new board installed.

My board *does* include two fuses, one each for the +100v and -100v
power lines. Williams did not include these on games till F*ire! ...
thus if you had a glass that shorted out, there was a greater chance
that it would also fry the power supply (and maybe take some driver
chips with it). Now, hopefully it will just take out the fuse(s). In
this way, it does add some protection for your HV power supply, and
the rest of your display hardware.

>For saving the display this is a great device because it is non
>intrusive to the origional hv power supply board or the display itself
>or any of the wireing for that matter. Also it provides the ability to
>adjust the the voltage in small incriments. It may not be exactly 1v
>incriments but hay this is not theory either this is reality and the
>individual diodes properties. having the small voltage incriments is
>the important part. It doesnt matter if it is exactly 1v or not.
>
>Bill I think you have made a dandy little device for saving the life of
>the displays.

Thanks...

--
+-- Bill Ung --------------------------------------------+
| ÁTTÁCK FROM MÁRS: Come here, tasty human!! |
| The ÁFM Mini-Saucer LED mod kits second run is coming |
| soon!! R*FM Mini-Saucer LED kits are also on the way! |
| Visit: http://www.ufopinball.com/ for more info... |
+--------------------------------------------------------+

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

On 12 Aug 2005 10:47:46 -0700, "seymour-shabow@excite.com"
<seymour-shabow@excite.com> wrote:

>Bill Ung said:
>
>>Right now, I have a board running in my Cyclone that has reduced the
>>voltage to +/- 95 volts (or 190vdc in your terms). I have working
>>displays, and my chips aren't being run at 200vdc.
>
>Isn't the net result of +/- 95 VDC 190volts? So the display
>glass/board components run at 190 volts - it's simply easier to make a
>power supply pos and neg and just use those as the +voltage and -ground
>voltage - looking at a random schematic for an sys11 era machine, the
>only connections going to the glass are +90vdc and -100 vdc - no actual
>"ground" there

True ... though from my perspective (and more to the point, the
board's perspective), there are +100v, -100v, +5v and ground
connections. The +/-100v lines may add up to 200v differential, but
the board doesn't see it in that way.

Since the +100v line and the -100v lines are separate, the board keeps
them separate, and allows you to configure them independently. I have
also noticed that on some of the older schematics, the -100v line was
labeled "keep alive". I'm not sure what that means, or if there are
some games that require that line to actually supply -100v. My tests
on a F*irepower (Sys 6) game didn't appear to mind as I decreased both
of the high voltage signals.

>- it's like when you want your case fans in a computer
>to spin faster, instead of ground, you hook it to the -5vdc line,
>giving your fan 17vdc. Or, you want less noise and your fan to spin
>slower, so you replace the ground (0volt) line with the +5vdc line,
>giving your fan +7 volts.

Neat idea, I never considered that...

--
+-- Bill Ung --------------------------------------------+
| ÁTTÁCK FROM MÁRS: Come here, tasty human!! |
| The ÁFM Mini-Saucer LED mod kits second run is coming |
| soon!! R*FM Mini-Saucer LED kits are also on the way! |
| Visit: http://www.ufopinball.com/ for more info... |
+--------------------------------------------------------+

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Bill,

Good point on the fuses. I didnt catch that. I didnt catch that.

Bill Ung wrote:
> On 11 Aug 2005 21:18:12 -0700, "mjmmx" <mjmmx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>

> My board *does* include two fuses, one each for the +100v and -100v
> power lines. Williams did not include these on games till F*ire! ...
> thus if you had a glass that shorted out, there was a greater chance
> that it would also fry the power supply (and maybe take some driver
> chips with it). Now, hopefully it will just take out the fuse(s). In
> this way, it does add some protection for your HV power supply, and
> the rest of your display hardware.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:52:38 GMT, Bill Ung <ung@nospam.com*> wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:23:35 -0500, "GPE"
><See_my_website_for_email@cox.net> wrote:
>>The only thing I'd be worried about are all the exposed high voltage pins on
>>there. Not that there aren't already a bunch of exposed high voltage pins.
>
> I'm concerned as well ... but as you say, there is already a lot of
> exposed high voltage back there. I'm less concerned about the jumper
> pins, and more concerned about the dual sets of header pins.

Add a couple of standoffs, and put a Lexan or PETG cover over it with a
"Warning - High Voltage" sticker on it.


--
| David Gersic http://www.zaccaria-pinball.com |
| Pentium, the computer your kids can relate to. It can't do fractions either.
| Email address is a spam trap. Visit the web site for contact info. |

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I just pulled up a schmatic of the driver board for HS and came to the
discovery that the udn6118 and udn7180 are on the board. this does mean
bills display saver board is protecting the udn chips from high
voltage. Is there a good place in the back box to mount the display
saver board?

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

"mjmmx" <mjmmx@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1124460718.814922.201840@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I just pulled up a schmatic of the driver board for HS and came to the
> discovery that the udn6118 and udn7180 are on the board. this does mean
> bills display saver board is protecting the udn chips from high
> voltage. Is there a good place in the back box to mount the display
> saver board?


That's exactly what this little saver board would do.
The UDN7180's were rated with an absolute maximum of -115 volts and were
typically operated at -100 volts by the Williams machines. The UDN6118A-1's
were rated with an absolute maximum of 110 volts. HOWEVER, the bulk of
remaining UDN6118A's remaining are without the "-1" suffix. These are rated
with an absolute maximum of 80 volts (85 volts for the NEC parts). Williams
runs these at a typical of 90 volts. This actually exceeds the voltage of
many of the UDN6118A's out there. For the most part, the UDN6118A's seem to
hold out at this voltage ok but this voltage is probably pushing the parts
pain threshold.

Best to get the voltage going thru these as low as possible as they are both
getting harder to find. Too bad we can't reduce the current thru these
parts as well as the voltage.

Also, there were UDN6184's used in many machines in place of the UDN6118's.
These are a much older Sprague parts and I can't find any data on these.

Also, also -- avoid at all costs any of the UDN parts with a "-2" suffix.
These are rated with a maxium of 60 volts.

-- Ed

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

On 19 Aug 2005 07:11:58 -0700, "mjmmx" <mjmmx@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I just pulled up a schmatic of the driver board for HS and came to the
>discovery that the udn6118 and udn7180 are on the board. this does mean
>bills display saver board is protecting the udn chips from high
>voltage.

Yup! The reason this board won't work on WPC-line Alpha-Numeric games
is that the WPC games have the HV power supply integrated with the
display driver board ... there's no wires between them, so there is no
easy way to intercept the voltage and lower it before it gets to the
chips.

On all the supported games, though ... the Display Saver board will
help protect both the display tubes, as well as the display driver
chips.

>Is there a good place in the back box to mount the display saver board?

One possible location is on the back of the insert board, right next
to the main display controller board.

--
+-- Bill Ung --------------------------------------------+
| ÁTTÁCK FROM MÁRS: Come here, tasty human!! |
| The ÁFM Mini-Saucer LED mod kits second run is coming |
| soon!! R*FM Mini-Saucer LED kits are also on the way! |
| Visit: http://www.ufopinball.com/ for more info... |
+--------------------------------------------------------+