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finally upgrade time....

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April 18, 2004 12:24:56 AM

Well its about time to join the 64 bit revolution. Here are my parts list and I was wonder on your thoughts about what I should and shouldn’t get.

Cpu ------
Amd Athlon 64 3000+ retail
$223 -newegg
Ram-------------
Corsair VS1GBKIT400 PC3200 1GB DDR Kit of 2 (Retail)
$199 - accupc
--or---
Corsair Value Select Dual Channel Kit 184 Pin 1G(512MBx2) DDR PC-3200 - OEM
$203 - newegg
--or---
Corsair Value Select (Dual Pack) 184 Pin 1G(512MBx2) DDR PC-3200 - OEM
$212 -newegg
--or---
Kingston PC3200 DDR400 1GB Dual Channel Memory Kit
$215 -accupc
--or---
Kingston ValueRAM Dual Channel Kit 184 Pin 1G(512MBx2) DDR PC-3200 - Retail
$218 - newegg
--or---
Ram part II---------------------
OCZ Performance Series Dual Channel Kit 184 Pin 1GB(512MBx2) DDR PC-3500 - Retail
$229 (heatsink)
Motherboards-----------------
AOpen K8T800 Chipset Motherboard for AMD Socket 754 CPU, Model "AK86-L" -RETAIL
$99 – can’t use promise controllers (newegg)
--or--
ASUS K8T800 Chipset Motherboard for AMD Socket 754 CPU, Model "K8V SE Deluxe" -RETAIL
$129 (newegg)
---or--
ABIT K8T800 Chipset Motherboard for AMD Socket 754 CPU, Model "KV8-MAX3" -RETAIL
$147 (newegg)
--or--

Also I have a thermaltake 420 watt psu, will this be enough power? In the rest of my system I have the 9800xt, sb audigy, 1 dvdrom, 1 dvdrw, & 1 cdrw, 1 74gb raptor, 2x 200gb Maxtor sata drives and 5 lighted fans.

What configuration should I use? Any experience with these parts? Problems? Geeze look at the ram prices!

Thanks guys!

Supporting AMD with your breakable stuff.

More about : finally upgrade time

a b à CPUs
April 18, 2004 7:19:09 AM

Why not get an nForce3 250 chipset board. Do you have something against quality? Hate nVidia? Or just prefer companies who behave unethically?

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
April 18, 2004 8:45:46 AM

>Why not get an nForce3 250 chipset board

Because they are not available yet ?

>Or just prefer companies who behave unethically?

*yawn*. He clearly doesnt, as he didn't opt for an intel system. Crash, not again, please.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
Related resources
a b à CPUs
April 18, 2004 10:27:00 AM

Quote:
Because they are not available yet ?

Didn't Chaintech just release one?
Quote:
Crash, not again, please.

Now look what you started! You KNOW what VIA did to put SiS out of business, you KNOW that's illegal in the U.S., and you KNOW SiS has a better product. You simply back up this company because they're as dishonest as you are!



<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
April 18, 2004 10:45:16 AM

>Now look what you started!

No, you started it.

> You KNOW what VIA did to put SiS out of business, you KNOW
>that's illegal in the U.S

I wasnt invited to those board meetings, so I do not claim to KNOW that, all I think I know, is that VIA doesnt have a monopolistic power, so I do not really see how they even could illegally drive anyone out of business, and further more, I leave it up to the courts to decide when and if what company would have broken what law.

Every company competes as hard as they can, bordelining the limits of what is legally allowed, and often even beyond those limits. That applies to *every* company, including Microsoft, Intel, VIA, AMD, IBM, etc. Its not my job to rule on how "ethical" a company conducts its business, because its nonsense. Either they broke the law, and I expect justice to condemn and fine them for it, like it has done with so many other companies/cases (including intel and microsoft I never see you raging against), or they didn't.

Either way, its not my problem, I buy/recommend a product on its merrits, not on wether or not I like the CEO of the company, or the country where the company resides.

> You simply back up this company because they're as
>dishonest as you are!

Yeah, I am a liar like anyone disagreeing with you.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
April 18, 2004 3:53:18 PM

Ahem, well after all of that. I have no idea what you are talking about. Concerning via doing something illegal against sis, I will research this further.

The reason I am not buying an nforce3 250, is why should I spend more money for no performance improvement? After all the chaintech mb doesn’t overclock better then any other mb based on the k8t800, so why pay more for almost nothing? $60 extra for a hardware firewall? No thanks.


Supporting AMD with your breakable stuff.
April 18, 2004 4:22:58 PM

If building highend I'd go ASUS K8V Deluxe (k8t8000)

Anandtech just made this board their "first" pick in the high end. A64 cpu's are not known to be great overclockers so overclocking is not an issue here so don't let anyone try and scare you with a (there is no agp lock on that board)

The ASUS K8V Deluxe offers several different advantages and features over other Socket 754 Athlon 64 motherboards that it makes it our recommendation today. First off, the K8V Deluxe's combined performance and price is superb; the K8T800 chipset's outstanding performance combined with features like Serial ATA (RAID), Gigabit Ethernet, IEEE 1394 FireWire, SPDIF, and IDE RAID, among other nice features makes the K8V Deluxe a great high end board for the price. Normally, we wouldn't place a great deal of emphasis on price for a high end system like this, assuming we're not talking over $200. However, for just under $140, it's truly amazing the number of cutting edge features that can fit on a motherboard these days. Of course, this is not to mention the renowned reliability of ASUS motherboards. Having tested the K8V Deluxe extensively, we can assure that you will indeed enjoy a reliable and trouble-free experience for the most part. Overclockers may be especially pleased with this motherboard if they delve into Athlon 64 territory.


If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
April 18, 2004 5:29:22 PM

OCZ Performance Series Dual Channel Kit 184 Pin 1GB(512MBx2) DDR PC-3500 - Retail
$229 (heatsink)
___________________________________________________________


The verdict is out on that ram. I had one stick out of two bad out of the box. Now I've got to RMA both sticks as they are matched. RAM prices are going through the roof so some careful shopping is in order.

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds. Now, let's eat!
a b à CPUs
April 18, 2004 6:11:15 PM

No bitch, you started it when you stepped into a conversation that didn't concern you. At them time, VIA had just as much control over the AMD chipset market as MS has over the software industry. And we saw what the DOJ did there.

Actually the only one I see repeatedly lying, then lying about it, was darko, I just suspected that you're intent, not your words, is dishonest. Like a scam artist skirting around the truth.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
April 18, 2004 6:43:55 PM

STFU crash you spoilt little brat.

You gotta link to ANYWHERE that I ever lied?




You just finished calling THG <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?nam..." target="_new"> liars </A> because of an ever so slight over sight (double-width cards won't fit in all SFF boxes.

Now p4man is dishonest?

You called me a liar earlier for the link below. Your pea sizes brain could not figure out I was using the link to debunk your idiot therory. You asumed that I was saying p4man is responding to you in the link. No he was responding to paul as we both fully knew I only used the link to debunk your idiot therory. Calling me a lair was a weak and desperate way to try and turn the tables around.

I think p4-man put it <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?nam..." target="_new"> nicely </A>on your junk platform opinion.



Crash your just a very sore looser. I proved you an idiot a # of times in this <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?nam..." target="_new"> thread </A> You were wrong on a # of things and did not have the balls to admitt you were wrong not even once (as usual) just tried to confuse the argument and mislead so you would not look wrong.

BTW nobody needs your aproval to comment on a conversation GET THAT THROUGH YOUR PEA SIZED BRAIN.


If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
April 18, 2004 7:33:28 PM

>No bitch

Hmm.. getting emotional over some $5 piece of silicon are we ?

> you started it when you stepped into a conversation that
>didn't concern you.

You where the one attacking the original poster with your " Or just prefer companies who behave unethically " statement. Hardly a "conversation", much more of a ridiculous insult to someone who just decided to buy a product and asked for comments.

> At them time, VIA had just as much control over the AMD
>chipset market as MS has over the software industry

The "AMD chipset market" ? Well, whats next, Sun abusing its monopoly in the Solaris market or Intel abusing its power in the "Intel cpu market" ? As I said, leave it to the courts. I'm not intimate with what happened, but I'm sure SiS knows how to start a lawsuit if they feel they have a case, just like Netscape did, Intergraph, Caldera, and countless others. I'm not aware of any rulings against VIA for monopoly abuse, and if there are, then it would seem the issue is solved. What's the problem ? Why arent you feverischly ranting against microsoft, which *has* been convicted on several occassions for monopoly abuse, against intel that has been convicted of patent infringements (like pretty much ANY company) ? No, its just VIA that would be "unethical" and "thieves" while MS and Intel and just about any company I'm aware off do the exact same thing. If they are selling crap products -which we all know they have- feel free to rant about it, but spare us your one sided "ethical" misjudgements.

>Actually the only one I see repeatedly lying, then lying
>about it, was darko,

I don't know, I have not seen it, but I <i>have</i> seen you repeatedly insult others, and accuse them of lying for no reason, other perhaps than disagreeing with you. That includes me on more than one occasion, once just because you failed to understand what I was writing. So I'd much rather give Darko the benefit of the doubt than you.

> I just suspected that you're intent, not your words, is
>dishonest.

Yeah, (baseless) suspicion clearly is reason enough for you to call someone a liar. Or a company a "bunch of thieves" who's CEO deserves the electrical chair. Well, that is not the sort of justice I believe in, nor the sort of purchase advice I or anyone should care about.

No need to respond to this btw, I'm not interested in any more of your ranting or insults.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
April 18, 2004 8:47:45 PM

>The reason I am not buying an nforce3 250, is why should I
>spend more money for no performance improvement?

Don't ask me :) 
If price is similar, and given the choice, I would probably opt for a nForce board just because of bad previous experience with VIA. Having said that, I fully realize there are precious little problems being reported on the K8T800 so I would not be willing to pay a serious premium either. It seems like VIA got their act together with their first attempt this time.

As for nForce 250 specifically; I see even less reason to wait for it, or wait for the "right" board, given what it brings over the nForce 150:
*) Gigabit ethernet + hardware firewall but at a extra cost. Could be nice for some, but already have hardware firewall, and really no need for GB Ethernet.
*) 4 SATA ports. I'm not planning on getting *8* SATA harddisks anytime soon/ever, so even having two (external) SATA ports + 2 PATA is already serious overkill for me. My optical drives are ATA anyway, as are most (all ?) new ones even today. Is 4 SATA harddisks (+2 PATA ones if you like) really a limitation ? Wouldnt even be able to fit them in my tower.
*) AGP lock. Hurray. I'd be curious to see any reviews contradict me, but I expect a near zero extra overclocking headroom / overclocked performance because of this. Since I care more about stability and data integrity as a few percent performance, I don't care about overclocking anyway.

People keep shouting:"wait for nForce 250", but really, unless you're one of the rare exceptions that wants to install 8 SATA harddisks, or wants a hardware firewalled ultrafast GB ethernet, or has a vapochill setup, why should you ? For the VIA-allergic people nforce 150 boards offers all you need for 99% of the users, and the performance difference really isnt measurable. And if you're not allergic, the K8T800 is a pretty credible solution as well.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
a b à CPUs
April 18, 2004 10:21:43 PM

I see you have the street gang mentality going, you see two people talking and you and your buddy think you can jump in and start a fight. Well guess what? It just shows how imature and pathetic you are when you follow me around post to post checking to see if I'm saying anything you can argue with me about.

And you've never proven anything except that you yourself are a sore looser and won't give up even when you KNOW you're wrong. I hope you act like this in real life so someone can call your bluff and kill your miserable ass, saving all of us from your abuse.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
a b à CPUs
April 18, 2004 10:24:44 PM

No, I get imotional when people are stalking me looking for fights. If I was arguing against any other companies products you'd step in there too. You just butted in, hence the bitch slap.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
April 19, 2004 12:28:05 AM

You started the fight numb nuts

Saying this

"Actually the only one I see repeatedly lying, then lying about it, was darko, I just suspected that you're intent, not your words, is dishonest. Like a scam artist skirting around the truth."

You are a spoilt little brat.

anandtech and p4man debunked your all current a64 motherboards are junk therory. Refering to the nforce150 and the k8t800.

And I debunked your amd lied with the xprating formula which you knew absolutly nothing about just bashing amd typical from you.

And now you are calling me a liar.. what a pathetic individual you are.

Grow up and get back on your meds.. Looser


If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
April 19, 2004 1:50:18 AM

Darko, I can't say i have ever seen you or P4 man lie. Nope, can't say that at all. When P4man said K8T800 had working AGP and I showed him a link stating that they claim it but it doesn't work, he wasn't lying, just misinformed. But I will say i think P4man did little to prove the current A64 mobos are debomb and only people already on his side, like yorself,would agree.


First, the ram issues: He likened the Canterwood and Springdales to have the same problems in the same degree as the current A64 mobos. I don't think he was fibbing to me, I just think he is fibbing to himself. He was so far off base with those accuzations on the memory I couldn't believe he stuck to the arguement. I know from hands on expereince Corsair LL runs awesome on IS7's, even at 2-2-2-6 and F1 gaming enhancement. Not many ram sticks can handle F1 settings. If you don't know the IS7, then you wouldn't understand. Plus I have thrown such a variety of ram into dual channel i865pe setups that I know they are amzing with timings. A64 you have to turn back timings, flash the bios, or buy new ram. That sucks IMO!!!! For me I have loads of ram sticks, so it isn't a huge issue. But for other people, spending big bucks on ram because they don't have any and finding their A64 mobo hates it, that blows big time. And who wants to flash a bios while having ram issues?? Not to mention he thinks Tom's should have updated all the bioses rather than the mobo manufacturers, who as you say have proven their boards over time, and sent Tom's the mobos for review. Shipping mobos to Tom's that fail 7 out 10 tests, LOL, serves them right IMO. P4 setups for me have run at or below spd settings every time without a single exception. Fact is almost all other hardware reviews on the big sites were done on 865pe/875p mobos with P4's and corsair LL ram. He went by one issue he could find that happened to be on a prerelease mobo. Anands very next review was using that same mobo and the same ram and he was crazy about the IS7. I won't bother explaining it all to you again, but the facts have been put before you even if in book sized posts. And ignoring what Tom's said and saying THEY look like idiots or whatever instead of facing the facts that A64 mobos even being proven for many months like you said were still horrible with memory in a early 2004 review. Do you guys honestly think you looked wise on the memory compatablity topic?

Also, any time I say not the enthusiasts dream motherboards and show links to where the enthusiast sites point out why, he comes back to belittle their expert advice and state that those things aren't important. Enthusiast and OC'in go hand in hand, and when motherboards fail to offere AGP lock nowadays, that is a flaw to real enthusiasts. Like it or not, it's true. Believe him if you must. I'll stick with the experts.

Anyway, sure Anand likes the K8T800 for Asus. He always likes Asus. And it is currently the best you can do for A64. But if you think that Anand himself is thrilled with k8t800 and NF3-150 and wouldn't like to see it's shortcomings fixed. You've been brainwashed and have skipped over parts of his reviews.

And as for Via, I am between you two and Crash. I've had loads of via woes and don't care for their business practices, yet wouldn't claim to have spent much time looking into the situation. Via has a someone tainted taste in my mouth, but of used dozens and dozens of their KT333 and 400 mobos even after having KT133 nightmares. I am not anti via, and I am far from anti A64.

Anyway, I still think you guys are either partial fanboys or performance blinded with your views on current A64 mobos. Nothing you have said has discredited what the experts say and feel is K8T800 and NF3-150 shortfalls. Nothing! But to you guys the added features are nothing and 2-3% performance boost and working AGP lock is nothing; Waiting makes no sence, give your money to AMD NOW because they need it and then do it again in 2-4 months, yada yada yada.


Edit: I forgot to say, I like to argue with you because I feel you guys often paint a way too one side opinion. But I never consider "fighting" with you or starting any useless name calling. It isn't who I am, and I appreciate we all have common interests or we wouldn't even be here. I was hoping to be over this talk as with new A64 mobos, I'll have less reason to argue with you. I hope?!? Until then, bash each other up if you must, I'll turn my head and come back when the war is over.




ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Pauldh on 04/18/04 09:55 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
April 19, 2004 2:10:29 AM

Wow!...it seem's Crashman cant get along with anybody these days :lol: 
You guy's need to learn that Crash want's to be a hero in all the thread's he participates in, and if you dont let him, he'll attack you. The way that he's treating you guy's in this thread is completely unacceptable. Dont let him do it.
**edit**
Excellent post Paul, it's great to have your here on the boards.

<A HREF="http://rmitz.org/AYB3.swf" target="_new">All your base are belong to us.</A>
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=2216718" target="_new"><b>3DMark03</b></A>
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by GeneticWeapon on 04/18/04 10:12 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
April 19, 2004 2:50:13 AM

You know what Paul, I am getting tired of being nice to you.

Re: Anyway, I still think you guys are either partial fanboys or performance blinded with your views on current A64 mobos.

a64 and the current motherboard selection is the best option for a gamer period... If it was something the user concentrated on that Intel excels at like dvix or compression I'd say buy the Intel system. But anandtech just picked a64 on k8t800 over any Intel system in the high end over all. YOU on the other hand just endlessly say avoid a64 (for the time being) but buy Intel in the high end segment no matter what you are doing with your computer for today.

So Paul who is the partial fanboy now?

You know what Paul I really appreciate you saying you have never seen me lie because that was nothing but pathetic garbage being thrown around by a jealous looser. However please don't send any of your pm's saying I agree with you for the most part on your theories and let’s try get along. Then I reply ok I'll leave you with the last word on the subject. I do respect your opinion I just disagree is all I mean if anandtech says a64 on k8t800 is the best overall system in the high end who are you and your opinion to critize me recommending it to a gamer?


If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
April 19, 2004 3:11:50 AM

um ok besides all the figghting going on in this thread, ill try to actaully stay on topic.

right now the chaintech baord is a poor excuse for an nforce 3 250 baord, it is not the baord to buy if you want the nforce 3, i want to get a 250GB board. Right now, i would agree for amd that your best baord is the asus k8v deluxe. disregarding the past via issues and going by current state of the via baords, the asus k8v is a very nice baord with little problems, excpet for the wildly known
voltage regulators, which they seemed to have fixed in new revisions. I have personally installed several and no problems yet. It will do you well in your system.
April 19, 2004 4:08:34 AM

Re: right now the chaintech baord is a poor excuse for an nforce 3 250 baord

Yeah I feel the same way. who really knows though it could end up being the best nforce250 board ever made. but I would not hold my breath.

I belive crash only brought it up to try and make himself justified in his previous opinions that nforce150 k8t800 are all junk.

I am a reasonable enthusiast and if I was buying today i'd get the asus k8t800 deluxe over chaintech nforce250 in a heartbeat.

although I'd probably go nforce250 over via k8t800 over all.

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
April 19, 2004 5:25:06 AM

<You know what Paul, I am getting tired of being nice to you.>

Sorry to hear that.

<a64 and the current motherboard selection is the best option for a gamer period... >

Fastest reasonably priced option, I agree. A valid option I agree. Best option, that depends on many other factors that we have been through before. I think for many people waiting is a great option, but I know that opinion somehow threatens your current A64 utopia.

<But anandtech just picked a64 on k8t800 over any Intel system in the high end over all.>

Why wouldn't he, they are blazing fast. I see Anand also tested GF6800U with an A64, which marks one of the few times ever that a well know site has used A64 to test video cards. Ain't that odd when they are the fastest and have been so proven over time just like the P4C's that have been the highend review standard for 10 months now. Well, equally proven by your words anyway. Maybe they got their memory issues finally worked out, or maybe they just felt that at any cost they should use the fastest test system as to be as GPU limited as possible. Many other sites are sticking with their trusty P4 rock solid fast test systems. I guess they are being rediculous as both you and P4Man seem to suggest, nothing short of A64 is worthy of gaming. Maybe they and some of us know a little more about the P4C rocks than you do? otherwise all review sites would be using the BESTEST A64's for all reviews right?

<YOU on the other hand just endlessly say avoid a64 (for the time being) but buy Intel in the high end segment no matter what you are doing with your computer for today.>

Well no actually that's completely false, but you two will stick to that story i am sure. Odd, does my signature tick you off, because I have been gaming on a mobile XP system for a few weeks now since pulling the 9800pro from the P4 for some OC tests. Also, 98% of my posting here has been done on AMD systems I've built. I don't agree with you and P4Mans agenda of telling people for gaming only consider A64, pushing A64 to any P4 inquiring non-gamer, also for it's future 64-bitness, and suggesting that someone who asked for the BEST MOTHERBOARD and was considering the IS7 or IC7, should look toward A64 instead if he wants to game(this is what started all our bickering) I have often told people A64 will be their fastest option. I have recommended Xp2500+, Xp2500+ Mobile, P4 2.8C and A64 3000+ as the best chips to buy for a while now. Also informing (not misinforming) people that newer boards are right around the corner and it may be worth waiting. I also stated going A64 is fine but make sure you don't skimp on a video card. IMO way more important than A64 is having a good video card like an R9800Pro paired with it. Yet you guys hate to see Pentium 4 and games in the same sentence. And think waiting makes no sense. Whatever.

<So Paul who is the partial fanboy now?>

CPU wise, you and P4Man. Either that or just most interested in the performance charts showing a few more fps and not the smaller details in a review. Motherboard wise; I love 865pe, 875p, and NF2 because they have proven themselves to me and cost me very little tech support time, unlike some of the Via systems. So if I'm a fan for demanding great mobos, OK. Although I'll add that I saw P4Man give very good fair advice in another topic today. Very impressive. He spelled out two valid options.

<You know what Paul I really appreciate you saying you have never seen me lie because that was nothing but pathetic garbage being thrown around by a jealous looser.>

I call it like I see it and gave my honest input into that discussion. I think that was the thing to do. You and I differ in opinions but that's nothing to get overly worked up about. Crash has made sence to me often also and seems to have the expereince that I think adds credibility in my eyes. Not that expereince is the only way to earn credibility. Good advice helping others does too as well as a record of knowing what you are talking about. I welcome honest input from those who own A64 systems, and I'd ask them for Ram recommendations if I was going to use the same mobo. Anyway, I think civilized is almost always best. I have no enemies here and haven't been on this forum long enough to jump on pathetic topics like those who have grown sick seeing the same ? asked over and over. I'm not against people who do get fed up, it just isn't me.

<However please don't send any of your pm's saying I agree with you for the most part on your theories and let’s try get along. Then I reply ok I'll leave you with the last word on the subject.>

Honestly that wasn't what I was looking for in a reply, but I too was sick of the arguement and it wasn't helping the guy we spun in circles, so i accepted your answer with a thank you. But I'll let you have the last word in this thread if that will make it up to you. :smile: Strange thing is We do agree on lots of topics, but since I defended P4 as a valid option, you have a hard time seeing how much I have agreed with you. Either that or my long posts keep you from reading it all. Like I've told you I build way more AMD's by far and do hope to own an A64 someday. I don't need an upgrade, but right now A64 S939 NF3-250 R423 is a system i would love to own IF it proves itself when all that is released. Note the IF is important. But I'll note you don't want PM's, There are only 5 people who I have ever PM'ed total; 2 who I argued with and 2 who I looked for help answering qustions, and one to offer advice on something they had posted about in the others forum. So don't worry it wasn't high on my to do list either.

<I do respect your opinion>

Thanks, and I respect yours. I've said it before neither is wrong, but instead both are valid. The PM was a truce that we agree to differ and end that one long discussion where we ended up confusing the daylights out of the guy who started the thread.

<if anandtech says a64 on k8t800 is the best overall system in the high end who are you and your opinion to critize me recommending it to a gamer?>

He and you are certainly allowed to pick a current favorite. Many others disagree. Not a big deal as long as we don't mislead people into thinking their is only one high end choice and other opinions are worthless. Anand still used P4-C's for all reviews until the 6800U. SO I trust he knows exactly what I mean by fast and rock solid stable. He is one of the first to switch, but in time when the mobos improve, others will follow I am sure. :wink:

Anyway, I'll leave you to help make sure the guy posting here gets his hands on the right Ram for that A64 mobo. I don't want to touch the subject for obvious reasons. I just had to respond since you mentioned my name and linked to that same ole arguement. Without seeing my name I wouldn't have responded but would have let you guys fight it out yourself and maybe even help the topic starter too along the way.



I haven't been to cpu's much lately with GF6800U released and R420 near. Also trying to get a few systems out the door as well as finish farcry when I need a break. SO have the last word because it's your turn. :smile:




ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt
April 19, 2004 5:26:54 AM

Ah shucks, why thank you GW. :redface:

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt
April 19, 2004 6:26:11 AM

Re: SO have the last word because it's your turn.

why thank you Paul I don't mind if I do.

Re: Sorry to hear that.

I was truly sorry to have to say it.

Re: Fastest reasonably priced option, I agree. A valid option I agree. Best option, that depends on many other factors that we have been through before. I think for many people waiting is a great option, but I know that opinion somehow threatens your current A64 utopia.

Yes best option in pretty much in every case for a serious gamer. To say otherwise would be like a guy wants a dvix compression computer but Intel is not the system for you because a lack of NX or heat or no 64 bit tech.


Re: Why wouldn't he, they are blazing fast. I see Anand also tested GF6800U with an A64, which marks one of the few times ever that a well know site has used A64 to test video cards. Ain't that odd when they are the fastest and have been so proven over time just like the P4C's that have been the highend review standard for 10 months now. Well, equally proven by your words anyway. Maybe they got their memory issues finally worked out, or maybe they just felt that at any cost they should use the fastest test system as to be as GPU limited as possible. Many other sites are sticking with their trusty P4 rock solid fast test systems. I guess they are being rediculous as both you and P4Man seem to suggest, nothing short of A64 is worthy of gaming. Maybe they and some of us know a little more about the P4C rocks than you do? otherwise all review sites would be using the BESTEST A64's for all reviews right?


or maybe it was nothing but smoke and mirrors from thg trying to drive up hits from all the controversy. No other site had those mem problems.


Re: Well no actually that's completely false, but you two will stick to that story i am sure. Odd, does my signature tick you off, because I have been gaming on a mobile XP system for a few weeks now since pulling the 9800pro from the P4 for some OC tests. Also, 98% of my posting here has been done on AMD systems I've built. I don't agree with you and P4Mans agenda of telling people for gaming only consider A64, pushing A64 to any P4 inquiring non-gamer, also for it's future 64-bitness, and suggesting that someone who asked for the BEST MOTHERBOARD and was considering the IS7 or IC7, should look toward A64 instead if he wants to game(this is what started all our bickering) I have often told people A64 will be their fastest option. I have recommended Xp2500+, Xp2500+ Mobile, P4 2.8C and A64 3000+ as the best chips to buy for a while now. Also informing (not misinforming) people that newer boards are right around the corner and it may be worth waiting. I also stated going A64 is fine but make sure you don't skimp on a video card. IMO way more important than A64 is having a good video card like an R9800Pro paired with it. Yet you guys hate to see Pentium 4 and games in the same sentence. And think waiting makes no sense. Whatever.


It's not completely false at all... We are talking a64 here please show a thread where you recommended an a64 system OVER a p4 for today? I'm waiting.. "and my signature tick you off" I don't play games like that those are crashman tactics christ there are basicaly 2 cpu's to pick from so that would make everyone a fanboy.


Re: CPU wise, you and P4Man. Either that or just most interested in the performance charts showing a few more fps and not the smaller details in a review. Motherboard wise; I love 865pe, 875p, and NF2 because they have proven themselves to me and cost me very little tech support time, unlike some of the Via systems. So if I'm a fan for demanding great mobos, OK. Although I'll add that I saw P4Man give very good fair advice in another topic today. Very impressive. He spelled out two valid options.


No Paul this is where you go completely astray. I would recommend p4 high end p4man would recommend p4 in the high-end it all depends on what the client plans on doing with the computer. YOU however have NEVER recommended the a64 in ANY thread no mater what the client is doing. Just buy p4 now and wait for a64 chipsets to improve.

Re: I call it like I see it and gave my honest input into that discussion. I think that was the thing to do. You and I differ in opinions but that's nothing to get overly worked up about. Crash has made sence to me often also and seems to have the expereince that I think adds credibility in my eyes. Not that expereince is the only way to earn credibility. Good advice helping others does too as well as a record of knowing what you are talking about. I welcome honest input from those who own A64 systems, and I'd ask them for Ram recommendations if I was going to use the same mobo. Anyway, I think civilized is almost always best. I have no enemies here and haven't been on this forum long enough to jump on pathetic topics like those who have grown sick seeing the same ? asked over and over. I'm not against people who do get fed up, it just isn't me.

If you did not call it as you see it I'd probably think less of you. So I appreciate what you said and I take my hat off to you for that. I do disagree with you on crash though yes the vast majority of his posts are helpful to the novice and he knows lots of computer stuff. But he's anything but perfect, borderline freak with some kind of monstrous ego who does not learn from mistakes or admit he was wrong. then accuses people of lying based on what he fully knows is nothing now that is twisted. Crash is in these forums not to help the novice but to boost his ego and hopefully get hired as an editor.


Re: Honestly that wasn't what I was looking for in a reply, but I too was sick of the arguement and it wasn't helping the guy we spun in circles, so i accepted your answer with a thank you. But I'll let you have the last word in this thread if that will make it up to you. Strange thing is We do agree on lots of topics, but since I defended P4 as a valid option, you have a hard time seeing how much I have agreed with you. Either that or my long posts keep you from reading it all. Like I've told you I build way more AMD's by far and do hope to own an A64 someday. I don't need an upgrade, but right now A64 S939 NF3-250 R423 is a system i would love to own IF it proves itself when all that is released. Note the IF is important. But I'll note you don't want PM's, There are only 5 people who I have ever PM'ed total; 2 who I argued with and 2 who I looked for help answering qustions, and one to offer advice on something they had posted about in the others forum. So don't worry it wasn't high on my to do list either.

I fully see where we agree and disagree. I just have a hunch that when nforce-250 is fully available you will have a different excuse like wait, like for socket 939 or whatever. When dealing with today deal with today. No I have no proof you would pull a stunt like that but based on your weak arguments to avoid a64 in the past I would not be surprised.

Re: Thanks, and I respect yours. I've said it before neither is wrong, but instead both are valid. The PM was a truce that we agree to differ and end that one long discussion where we ended up confusing the daylights out of the guy who started the thread.


I respect your opinion but I disagree on neither is wrong... P4man and I both recommend the p4 in the high end (openly) in any thread based on the use for computer. You however never recommend the a64 in the high-end today under any situation just p4 system is better over all wait wait wait for a64 systems to improve.


Re: He and you are certainly allowed to pick a current favorite. Many others disagree. Not a big deal as long as we don't mislead people into thinking their is only one high end choice and other opinions are worthless. Anand still used P4-C's for all reviews until the 6800U. SO I trust he knows exactly what I mean by fast and rock solid stable. He is one of the first to switch, but in time when the mobos improve, others will follow I am sure.


You and I are irrelevant. How many frigging a64 setups have you ever tested? I don't care if you have assembled over 100 p3's over the years you don't know jack about the a64. Anandtech has tested this thing extensively (they know what they are doing) They don't base their opinions on strange emotions but facts. The fact anandtech rated the a64 on k8t800 over any Intel setup in the high end segment speaks volumes. This was not for just a gamer but over all.

Re: Anyway, I'll leave you to help make sure the guy posting here gets his hands on the right Ram for that A64 mobo. I don't want to touch the subject for obvious reasons. I just had to respond since you mentioned my name and linked to that same ole arguement. Without seeing my name I wouldn't have responded but would have let you guys fight it out yourself and maybe even help the topic starter too along the way.


You are too kind.


Re: I haven't been to cpu's much lately with GF6800U released and R420 near. Also trying to get a few systems out the door as well as finish farcry when I need a break. SO have the last word because it's your turn.


Thanks we will see if it's the last word. See I can make super long posts aswell :-)

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
April 19, 2004 6:36:17 AM

wow the via hate runs deep, which i can agree with to a point...


i odnt mind if people have personal preferences, but whne you recommmend a system, personal preferences mean nothing and shoudlnt affect that recommendation.

given that, i question anyone that would not recommend an amd 64 system, specifically the via chipset, to a user, especially to an avid gamer. no one in there right mind could say intel p4's are bad for gaming, of course they are fine for gaming, but since there are 2 companies, well you need to compare the numbers and experinces of other users.
Im sure youd agree at the moment amd chips are the better gaming chip. So that makes the choice easy for a gamer. I cna see your question is more about the chipset, but agian I see more personal preference then real recommendation here. Everyone has heard over and over agian about the problems. The memory issue is not HUGE, yes the memory controller is picky, which apperntly amd wil try and fix in the next revision, but with some careful planning, that problem is avoided every time, at least in my experince with boards using it. Do I wish it wasnt so picky? Sure , does it maek me avoid it atogether? No, becuase its perfect for my gaming system, not for my video editing/rendering system, thats a p4.

This isnt really directed to you but more like to other people ive seen make remarks about not liking somehting becuase they read about problems but have never actaully tried it themselves. Now i know there are chipset problems that are documented and are real, but the good thing is, its not wide spread and if it does occur, problems like those specific to a board, can be replaced.

All I can say is form my experince, and that is that the via chipset is a fine chipset and can perform up to any gamers wishes and will perform stable. Is it perfect? Nope, but its a stable platform and very fast for the time being. Maybe its not the best for overclockers or other such enthusiasts, but thats not an area that matters for this range.

Ive seen so much bickering on many forums about these things, and they can get viscous lol, especially here, i guess thats to be expected for those that are passionate in what they may think or believe. Thats fine most of the time, but i really think it distorts many people's views, those that are looking for guidance about something like a part. Its hard for people to guide others in a direction they themselves would never go for whatever reason.
April 19, 2004 7:04:51 AM

is that all?

..this is very useful and helpful place for information...
April 19, 2004 7:56:56 AM

You're still making the same logical error Paul. Memory latency is just one of many factors that make up overall performance. So even <b>if</b> A64 boards would not allow you to run those memory sticks at equally low latencies as P4 boards, its a non issue when performance is still head and shoulders above that of the P4 for a given type of software. You can't just compare BIOS settings to conclude anything between the inherent much lower latency ODMC of the A64 versus the northbridge approach of the P4. Its really no different than claiming the P4 would be a better enthousiast choice because it runs at higher clockfrequency. You can compare CPU clockfrequencies within a given cpu/platform as an aproximation of performane, and you might use latency (as well as bandwith) as an aproximation of memory performance within a given platform, but its useless outside that. Look at it this way: which platform do you think gives you (by FAR) the lowest overall memory latency ? Hint: its not the P4. Have a look here:
<A HREF="http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=60000258" target="_new">http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=60000258&lt;/A>
The A64 offers up to <b>300%</b> lower memory latency as the p4, so why on earth bitch about a 2 or 5% 3-2-2 would offer over 2-2-2 or something ? Makes no sense.

As for the AGP lock; its the same thing really. Why rant against the absense of an AGP lock, and not an unlockable multiplier which are only available on the AXP and AFX ? And again, overall overclocked performance (/$$$) should be considered when comparing two totally different platforms, not just one functional detail. You don't see anyone recommending a AXP 3200+ to overclockers instead of a P4C just because it does come with an AGP lock, as well as selectable multipliers do you ? You have a point that P4's tend to be better overclockers, in the sense that you are much more likely to achieve a higher percentage increase, but for a gamer, I still don't see the relevance of this when it takes a P4 4 GHz to catch up with stock performance of the A64.

Lastly, enthiousast<>hardcore overclocker. Again, as I pointed out already, its contradictory to recommend a certain platform for better "perceived stability", when you toss that all away when you start overclocking to the limit. Its simple really, when you love to achieve 30-50% overclocks, get a P4, when you care about absolute gaming performance, get a A64 regardless if you're an overclocker or not.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
a b à CPUs
April 19, 2004 9:44:18 AM

You debunked nothing, we both know AMD changed their rating system to better suit P4 processors after saying it was based on the Thunderbird core. You just keep saying you proved me wrong because, as the movie said...

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

Anyway, for you to claim otherwise is just a long list of lies in your dishonest life, I bet you cheated in school too.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
a b à CPUs
April 19, 2004 9:51:46 AM

I get along with all but a handfull of people who seem to take darko's side on these matters. Which is fine, because I understand the gang mentality, you guys like beating up on people, it makes you feel powerfull.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
April 19, 2004 4:34:22 PM

Re: You debunked nothing, we both know AMD changed their rating system to better suit P4 processors after saying it was based on the Thunderbird core. You just keep saying you proved me wrong because, as the movie said...

Its all here in black and white in this <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?nam..." target="_new"> thread </A> .This is also the thead where you started calling me a liar based on nothing you did it because you could not win the argument. I don't expect people to read it as its way to long but the proof is all there.

Re: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

That was inteligent!

Re: Anyway, for you to claim otherwise is just a long list of lies in your dishonest life, I bet you cheated in school too.

Long list of lies? Dishonest life? I must have been a cheater in school?

On the first 2 you are out to lunch as usual! I am sure I cheated on a couple of tests here or there in high school although nothing comes to mind. Hell no one is perfect. What are you anyway some kind of religous freak.


If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
April 19, 2004 4:41:21 PM

Re: I get along with all but a handfull of people who seem to take darko's side on these matters. Which is fine, because I understand the gang mentality, you guys like beating up on people, it makes you feel powerfull.

There is no gang mentality here. You keep calling me, others and even thg liars. You seriously expect people to back you on that? I think most of the posters in this thread have a very good idea on what has transpired between the two of us. If you are going to run around like a child screaming the sky is really purple expect people to disagree.


If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
April 19, 2004 5:45:43 PM

i think its just best to let it settle now, all your guys fighting here is worthless and not helping the original poster, just need to calm down just a tad, or move it to another thread.
April 19, 2004 5:53:41 PM

The clown is calling me a liar based on nothing.

I have every right to refute that.

Just watch his next post he probably reply "see you are a liar cause I never said the sky was purple anywhere"

This is the kind of childish crap I have to put up with.

You would get worked up too if someone was calling you a liar over and over based on NOTHING

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
April 19, 2004 8:21:31 PM

i understand that, im just saying you could open another thread about it.
April 19, 2004 9:09:03 PM

I fully agree name calling, basless accusations, is childish and can ruin a thread beyond repair.

But try see it from my point of view. He calls me an endless liar with nothing to back it up (and I am not the only one) THG are liars p4mans dishonents VIA is run by criminals and should be put to death and in the previous thread he was calling AMD liars.

Now you want me to start a thread somwhere else to discuss how I'm a liar? You are asking a bit too much there. Crash is the root of all these problems with his baseless acusations. Go back and take a look how it started in this thread.

I suppose I should be the bigger person, However, I let him off rather easy in the previous thread we argued in (I did not have to). I get rewarded now by him calling me a liar in this thread with no prevoking.

The guy is a worthless sore looser.

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
April 19, 2004 9:14:56 PM

you both dragged a grudge into a thread it doesnt belong, open one to discuss your problems. if i was in your place i would not even bring it up in threads or respond to attacks in threads where it doesnt belong. i was just saying this isnt the place.
April 19, 2004 9:23:32 PM

Wrong!

He brought it up not me! I was just defending myself.

I refuse to let basless acusations go unchecked.

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
April 19, 2004 9:32:06 PM

Hey dude, what got into you ? You're spoiling the good fun ! Never ever try to stop a good mud slinging name calling pissing contest thread :)  C'mon Cashman and darkdude, gimme more !

---------------------------------------------------
I am severly limited in what my mind can perceive.
April 19, 2004 10:24:18 PM

oh yeah sorry, let the uselessness continue lol, i do realize it happens in almost every thread
April 19, 2004 11:08:04 PM

Looks like I have to check in more often. Another FIGHT. YA. :smile:
a b à CPUs
April 19, 2004 11:51:50 PM

Nope, I never cheated in school because...I'm honest. Which is probably why you stalk me so much.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
a b à CPUs
April 19, 2004 11:55:32 PM

I never called THG liars, I simply stated that they lied by mistake. You see, people make mistakes all the time. And I wouldn't have used such a harsh word except that children don't seem to understand otherwise.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
a b à CPUs
April 20, 2004 12:02:07 AM

Darko's problem with me stems from the fact that I believe the XP rating system is a bit flawed and so does he, but he won't admit it. It has to do with the fact they said it was based on the Thunderbird, but tried to adjust it to fit the P4 better. One of those "little white lies" they couldn't state it was based on the P4 because of liability issues. Darko said it was never adjusted for Socket A processors. Darko believes everything AMD says, even promotional stuff like the "XP Formula" which is not even a benchmark.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
April 20, 2004 12:19:29 AM

Re: Nope, I never cheated in school because...I'm honest. Which is probably why you stalk me so much.

Calling me a liar is honest? how could you ever have cheated in school by the looks of it you never even went to school! Stalk you? You called me a frigging liar numb nuts how am I stalking you?


Re: I never called THG liars, I simply stated that they lied by mistake. You see, people make mistakes all the time. And I wouldn't have used such a harsh word except that children don't seem to understand otherwise.

Lied by mistake what is that? Do you not know the difference between a lie and a mistake? CHILDREN is that what you think the forum people here are your children to teach? man oh man are you messed up.


Re: Darko's problem with me stems from the fact that I believe the XP rating system is a bit flawed and so does he, but he won't admit it. It has to do with the fact they said it was based on the Thunderbird, but tried to adjust it to fit the P4 better. One of those "little white lies" they couldn't state it was based on the P4 because of liability issues. Darko said it was never adjusted for Socket A processors. Darko believes everything AMD says, even promotional stuff like the "XP Formula" which is not even a benchmark.


My original problem with you started based on the fact you were acusing AMD of lying with the xprating formula. See as you knew ABSOLUTLY nothing on how it works it was another basless acusation. Typical crash stuff. Check the link here in this <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?nam..." target="_new"> thread </A> it shows you acusing and arguing about xp rating formula something you knew nothing about.

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
a b à CPUs
April 20, 2004 1:35:40 AM

no, you know nothing of how the XP rating formula works. In fact, it doesn't. It's an amalgumation of several "formulas", which are actually scales, based on what processors AMD has sold and what they named them. The "formula" is based on what AMD names their CPU's, not vice versa. You overclock an XP2400+ to XP3200+ speed and it magically tells you that you're at XP3200+ performance, simply by comparing the core used to the speed you set it at. It has no relevance to actual performance. Actual performance on which the model numbers were assigned was a judgement call on the part of AMD, they simply said "this performs like a P4 2.8B, let's call it a 2800+. There is no "formula" behind that, it's derived from testing the CPU using real application benchmarks and so forth. It's not a flawless automated system, it's not quantitative but qualitative.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
a b à CPUs
April 20, 2004 1:39:54 AM

Oh, and you can lie by mistake. If you make a mistake on the witness stand you might not go to jail for purgery, but your entire testimony will come into doubt.

Exagerations, over-generalizations, all different degrees of a lie. If you told me you caught a 5lb bass because you were so excited you embelished by mistake, I'd weigh it out at 3.5lb and everyone would still call it a fish story. And the only way I'd come outright to call it a lie is if someone insisted it was completely true.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
April 20, 2004 2:01:01 AM

It's a bios thing butt plug. I'd suppose amd uses the formula to get the rating then feeds the info to mb manufactuers so it can determin multiplier fsb cache in the bios and boot with a rating over mHz

<A HREF="http://www20.tomshardware.com/cpu/20011009/athlonxp-12...." target="_new"> clicky for amd hater crashman </A>

AMD's New Model Policy

The benchmarks show quite clearly that AthlonXP 1800+ is able to beat Intel's flagship Pentium 4 2 GHz in the majority of benchmarks. From that point of view, the AthlonXP at 1533 MHz would have rather deserved the model number 1900+ or even 2000+. However, AMD was basing its model rating on the expected performance of the next Pentium 4 core 'Northwood', which will be performing better per clock than current Pentium 4 CPUs.

AMD's problem is the fact that Athlon processors are able to do a lot more work per clock cycle than Intel's Pentium 4. We just saw that AthlonXP at 1533 MHz is able to reach or even beat Pentium 4 running at an almost 33% higher clock speed. Normal buyers won't care about the 'work per clock' issue. They just ask for 'megahertz' and that's AMD's trouble. Hence, AMD didn't have any other choice than introducing a measure that would reflect the actual performance of its processors. The new model numbers are a first step in this direction.

AMD's new model rating is based on 14 benchmarks that represent 34 applications of the three fields 'visual computing', 'gaming' and 'office productivity'. AMD was trying to be as fair as possible, with the effect that the current model numbering of AthlonXP processors is a bit overly humble, as you can see from our benchmarks. Once Intel releases Pentium 4 processors based on Northwood however, the model numbers may become more realistic.

The model numbering is only an intermediate solution. AMD is trying to help establish an independent institution that creates a new performance measure that is fairer and more realistic than the current MHz-rating in 2002. This institution is supposed to benefit every PC customer, regardless if he buys Intel or AMD processors, by providing a reliable way of determing performance.

We will see how successful AMD will be in helping to establish this institution. Intel won't have any interest in giving aid, because it benefits from the clock frequency (hype) lead of Pentium 4. Microsoft will have to join in, since a majority of software comes from the software giant. OEMs might or might not be interested. Especially the old buddies of Intel won't be willing to help or recognize AMD's initiative. The media could help a lot, but certainly not the crazy fanatics found in so many Internet publications. It will be a long way and this institution will need a strong spokesperson that is able to take a lot of abuse from the AMD as well as Intel fanatics across the globe. The noble idea behind this institution might not be good enough to make it real. Let's see what happens.

There will be a lot of criticism of AMD now. Yes, it is true that the model numbering might confuse customers right now, since it is indeed difficult to know if Athlon 1400 is now slower or faster than AthlonXP 1500+. However, these are transitional times. AMD's new model number system deserves better than being compared with the old and confusing P-Rating. AMD hasn't got an alternative right now and so I respect the new system and accept it, even though I might not like it too much. I suggest that we all give it a chance.



If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
April 20, 2004 2:01:58 AM

Re: Oh, and you can lie by mistake. If you make a mistake on the witness stand you might not go to jail for purgery, but your entire testimony will come into doubt. Exagerations, over-generalizations, all different degrees of a lie. If you told me you caught a 5lb bass because you were so excited you embelished by mistake, I'd weigh it out at 3.5lb and everyone would still call it a fish story. And the only way I'd come outright to call it a lie is if someone insisted it was completely true.


Just look at that desperate atempt to make a simple mistake appear as a lie. You are so sad.

Of frigging course you can't go on the witness stand and say I never lied it was a mistake that is why both parties have lawyers. but anyone can make a mistake and it is clearly not a lie.


If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
April 20, 2004 3:26:51 AM

Hey crash where did you ever learn

"It's an amalgumation of several formulas" ????


You certianly did not used to know that! Do you remember me pointing that out in the last <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?nam..." target="_new"> thread </A> we argued in a few days ago?


I thought you said you were always right and never wrong! We would not want to see your children misled. So take a look at the idiot posts you made a few months ago..... Crash do you remember making those idiot posts? see below or am I lying?

Quote:
It was even a rip off back then, because the 1600+ wasn't twice as fast as a PIII 800EB. You could compare it to the sucky Willy and say it was better, or the Northwood and say it was about right, but it was supposed to be based on previous AMD processors, which was a complete falsehood.

Hehe, no. AMD CLAIMED the PR system was based on the Thunderbird. Now, the Thunderbird was a bit faster than the Coppermine, clock for clock. It had about the same power except for it's better floating point.

So that was their claim. Of course, we all suspected that claim was a lie, and that they were really trying to compare to the P4. But you still expect around 14% better performance from a 1600+ than an Athlon 1400, and that's what AMD was claiming, and we know it's a lie.

So my PIII comparison was based on easy numbers: 1600 is twice as large as 800, a DDR266 bus has twice the bandwidth of a 133MHz SDR bus. And since the Thunderbird was a hair more powerfull than the Coppermine, a buyer would expect the XP1600+ to be MORE than twice as powerfull as an 800EB.




If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart. <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by darko21 on 04/19/04 11:39 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
a b à CPUs
April 20, 2004 5:00:29 AM

BIOS get's it's XP number from a table. AMD tells companies what speeds and cores represent what model numbers, and the companies plug that value in. I'm telling you, it's all smoke and mirrors, based on estimates made by people, not machines. Most of the estimates are good...the early ones were low, the last ones were high, and the ones in the middle were just about right.

I already told you that I build mostly AMD systems for my clients. You said it was irrelavent. Then you say I hate AMD. You make no sense. Which is how you prove to everyone else that in spite of your good use of words, you're still trolling.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
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