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Hi everyone, so I'm doing some research on upgrading my system and thought I'd ask for some opinions after reading the buyer's guide posted by Spitfire.

I'm a college student studying computer science/engineering and an avid gamer. I'm currently running an AMD Duron 1GHz, so you can tell it's definitely time to upgrade before school starts again. :)

I'm looking at getting at least a 3GHz although I want to keep the price relatively low and don't care about overclocking or spending $$ for a slight benchmark increase. The applications I'll mostly run are development apps, C++/Java compilers, VS .NET, VMWare Workstation to run Linux apps, and some graphics intensive MP games, FPS, etc. all under Windows XP.

So according to the guide, I'm looking at either a P4 3.0GHz, or an AMD Athlon64 3000+, Athlon64 3200+. So the decision is Intel vs. AMD which I know is the subject of much debate.

A very important characteristic I want of the system is reliability. I don't want this thing crashing or being unstable during the semester since it would take time away from my studies. My Duron has worked OKAY, temperature has been fine but I have noticed some random instability at times which I don't want. Of course at the time I was on a very tight budget so I understand if it's the cheap CPU and not AMD being less reiable than Intel necessarily. I do want a cool running CPU since my computer tends to warm up the room and I leave it on all the time.

Lastly, should I care about Intel's new architecture, PCI Express, DDR2, etc.? I don't plan on upgrading for at least another year or so and don't want to be left out in the cold with components later on. I'd appreciate any suggestions/experiences you might offer.

Thanks!,

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pat

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Well AMD 64 with cool and quiet technology with a good branded mobo should give you satisfaction for years to come. Just get a good PSU (branded 400w minimum)and a good, vented case too. If air stay hot inside the case, dont expect the cpu to cool down. HDD and graphic card add lot of heat inside the case. You better have 3 fans efficiently placed running half speed than one running full speed making lot of noise to exhaust the heat.

cool and quiet lower the speed of the cpu when not used at full load (like surfing the net), minimizing the heat produced.

Cheap cpu are oftenm used with cheap mobo with cheap parts to create cheap system. No matter if it is AMD or Intel. I've seen intel system running instable too, but not because of the processor. Cheap psu will fluctuate and can crash the system under load. poorly vented will keep hot air inside and the cpu will heat it up more instead of cooling down. I've used AMD CPU since Athlon XP with a good PSU in a well vented case and they alway have been very reliable. And since you are develloping apps, well you'll be 64 bits ready too...


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Kanavit

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for complete 100% compatibility , i'd go intel. They make good chipsets, mobos, and cpus. universal support of SSE2, hyperthreading, SSE3m and soon EM64T. Plus you can't lose with mhz. It's something that will always be there. while lower frequency cpus such as the A64 has some disadvantages such as slow video and audio apps. No hyperthreading which means , multi-tasking is slower. Plus x86-64 isn't being utilized , and it looks like it won't be anytime soon either. M$ just delayed windows xp 64-bit till 2005. Who knows when it will come.

DOom3 , and Farcry runs better on my 3.2E for somereason than some dude with an A64 3200+. Maybe because i have a 6800GT , and he as an x800pro.

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darko21

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"Plus you can't lose with mhz."

Please kanavit quit saying that it makes you look more than uninformed but completly hopless.

More MHz is always better but only when comparing <b>identical</b> CPU's (why is this so hard for you to grasp) Take the p4 celeron of the <b>NON "D" variety.</b> over clock it to 3 giz and it would prolly be much slower than a amdFX under clocked to 1 giz. So don't say you cant go wrong with MHz it's just plain silly :lol:

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
 

Madsn

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Damn Kanavit you post is full of errors....
1) AMD has universal support of SSE2

2) EMT64 = AMD64

3) Clockspeed doesn't mean a damn thing, not even in encoding, and if you havent noticed A64 is very competitive when it comes to performance in encoding jobs

4) Ofcourse your 3.2E with GT is faster than one with a XT, doom3 performance is much better with nvidia hardware

To the original poster, i would buy the athlon 64 because you said you are an avid gamer and the A64 perform very good in this area, cool 'n quiet will clock down you processor when you use word and just do basic windows task, this lowers power consumption, lowers temperature, and saves money on the electricity bill.

As far as stability is concerned it's a non-issue today simply because the chipset standard on AMD systems has improved dramatically, stability is NOT something i would worry about.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Madsn on 08/07/04 05:00 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

Kanavit

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The P4 runs SSE2 faster and more effeciently than Athlon SSE2, because of dynamics of netburst architecture, and some programs don't run SSE2 properly on Athlons because it doesn't recognize it as genuine intel processor.

And EM64T is not the same as AMD64. Intel reversed engineered the technology. It's not completely compatible 100%.

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Madsn

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What a bunch of rubbish, there are no SSE2 errors in the A64.

A64 have a higher SSE2 execution rate / clock than intel and the small advantage The P4 has in SSE2 is entirely due to the clockspeed diffrence. So actually the AMD SSE2 is more effective than the Intel SSE2.

Well AMD64 is much better than EMT64, so why wait for an inferior 64 bit tecnology?
 

phial

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for complete 100% compatibility , i'd go intel.
good for you. too bad you dont know what your talking about eh :(

They make good chipsets, mobos, and cpus.
some AMD motherboards (usually nvidia chipsets) are some of the best motherboards ive ever seen. yes, Intel does make excellent chipsets. but there are equally excellent ones available for the AMD platform

universal support of SSE2, hyperthreading, SSE3m and soon EM64T. Plus you can't lose with mhz. It's something that will always be there. while lower frequency cpus such as the A64 has some disadvantages such as slow video and audio apps. No hyperthreading which means , multi-tasking is slower. Plus x86-64 isn't being utilized , and it looks like it won't be anytime soon either. M$ just delayed windows xp 64-bit till 2005. Who knows when it will come.
A64 has "UNIVERSAL SUPPORT" for SSE2. new core revisions WILL have SSE3. theres rumours that Intels new 64bit prescotts wont be for desktops (servers), and theres also rumours that its not fast. AMD's x86-64 is fast. 64bit is irrelivant you are right because winxp-64 wont be coming out soon, so why mention it as a benifit for goign with new intel chips? oh thats right, beacuse your a snivelling fanboy

DOom3 , and Farcry runs better on my 3.2E for somereason than some dude with an A64 3200+. Maybe because i have a 6800GT , and he as an x800pro.

its your GT. your Prescott is slower than just about every A64 model in Doom3

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phial

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common you never respond to me. try to prove me wrong!

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pickxx

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Here is the long and short of it...The intel fanboy is right about a couple things. the P4 has an advantage with video and audio encoding...its like 5-10%. But the A64 has a gaming advantage thats nearly 20%.
If i were you...(and i was in your situation like a month ago) i would go with what i have but upgraded because of the recent price drop.

A64 3000+, Chaintech VNF3-250...then get 1stick of 512MB name brand value RAM(i say one stick because then you can upgrade with another stick easily. the chaintech board doesn't have duel channel so one dimm is just the same as two to that board. and you can always add the extra RAM if you think you need it later.), the HD of your choice (i always recomend a 200GB IDE Western Digital, it has a great GB/$ ratio.), An optical drive of some kind, the vid card of your choice and all you need from that is a case and Power supply. Just make sure you get a decent power supply. Generic PSU are the devil. brand name cost more but are 99% relyable.

A64 holds it's own in all apps, but in games it KILLS P4's. You might want to figure out what processor brand you want and then figure out everything BUT a processor and then use the money left for the processor.
Its better to have a A642800+ with relyable RAM, Relyable power, and harddrive....then to have a A64 3200+ with nothing booting up.

Check the other topics, most of the main ones have some guides to kinda give you direction in your search.
 

Kanavit

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ok, Phial LOL

if ....if and why AMD 64 next 90nm revision will include SSE3???!!! Yes, Intel instructions are more supported in the computer industry , because Intel writes cpu instructions and sets the standards. That's why Dell and me use Intel. I was gonna buy an A64 3400+ , but was afraid that i would be shooting myself in the foot. No 64-bit future? no SSE3? No hyperthreading? NO SUPPORT! I feel more secure when i buy Intel for somereason. I always knew that Intel will still be in business 6 yrs down the road. That is reassurance i need. Can't say the same thing for AMD though..

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phial

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dude....

first off, I know exactly what your feeling.. its the same kind of feeling you have when watchign your favorite hockey team. you dont care if they lose, they are still the best and you feel insulted if anyone says they arent

its a company dude. brand loyalty is dumb.. the securness you feel is unfounded. AMD chips are very high quality, they wont get crushed when you install your heatsink, they wont have scratches from shoddy manufacturing, they wont cause your windows to crash, they dont have a higher failure rate than Intel chips.

if ....if and why AMD 64 next 90nm revision will include SSE3???!!! Yes, Intel instructions are more supported in the computer industry , because Intel writes cpu instructions and sets the standards. That's why Dell and me use Intel.
Intel has been around sinse the beginning of time, and basically created x86 afaik. thats why they set the standards. its just like every other industry, they have made a name for themselves.
Dell uses Intel for this very reason, because of the fact taht more people know of Intel (and support them) they will sell more computers. They dont use Intel because they are better/faster cpu's.

I was gonna buy an A64 3400+ , but was afraid that i would be shooting myself in the foot. No 64-bit future? no SSE3? No hyperthreading? NO SUPPORT!

yes ive heard from mutliple places that new revisions will have some of SSE3.. most SSE3 are new HT instrutions, which obviously cant be implimented on A64's

Athlons made 5 years ago are STILL more than fast enough to use in WindowsXP for the averate home user. they are excellent fast chips, and when they came out they suprised the hell out of everyone. theres alot of poeple who still use Athlons tbirds, beacuse thats how fast they were. meanwhile i dont see alot of people using Pentium3's or Celeron2's at all ..

dude you like Intel just because they are Intel. it makes all their features liek "SSE3" sound cooler and more advanced, and it makes you feel justified paying more. Again, ive favored brands before (like ATI cards.. i was a hardcore fanboy until i realized how silly it was.. i thought that all ATI technology was better, but i didnt even know why or the technical details behind it al.. obviously you dont either, because you believe in the MHZ-myth for christ sake). you are complety wrong tho ..

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Now that was well said! Nothing you can add from there! If you're going to recommend something over something else, it really helps if you have built both. Until you do, you are just guessing how good one really is over the other. I happen to like both AMD and Intel for different reasons. I am, however, an PC fanboy! :smile:

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AvatarX

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I'd like to thank all of you for replying to my questions and giving me some good things to think about with regards to both Intel and AMD. I've actually built both kinds of systems but as I mentioned it's been a while so I have to catch up on the new technology and try to figure out what's best for me.

As for brand loyalty that doesn't play a role in my decision at all. Like Phial mentioned they're just companies and I'll vote with my $$ by buying the CPU that provides the better price/reliability/performance for the dollar. Competition is after all a good thing because we ultimately win as the customer. The only concern I have right now which maybe some of you can help me with, is Intel's new PCI Express and DDR2. Is this something I should care about right now or too early to tell, or only for early adopters with $$ to burn? I noticed some manufacturers are starting to build systems with PCI express in their high end systems.

As for compatibility Kanavit mentioned Intel being more compatible. To be honest, with the Duron I'm using now I haven't had any problems in compatibility. Even in development it's not an issue with modern compilers so that's not something I worry about. I mentioned stability being somewhat of an annoying problem with my current system but again the cheap CPU/Cheap RAM does make a cheap system as Pat said. That's one of the things I'm aiming to fix this time around.

I have to say I'm maybe leaning more towards AMD for a couple of reasons. Price/performance ratio seems to be on AMD's side. If stability/reliability is a non-issue with modern CPU's and chipsets and the AMD CPU runs cooler that's a plus. A cooler CPU makes me more comfortable in regards to stability/reliability. The performance advantage that Intel might have in encoding audio/video isn't so important since that's not my primary use for the system. Even if I do decide to do that, like I mentioned in the original post, I'm not trying to post the winning benchmark number with my system. I want to use it to run applications and if it takes a few more seconds to run an unattended encoding task, it's not worth the extra $$ to me personally.

Some more info on what I have so far since some of you mentioned the importance of a good case/power supply. I have an Antec Sonata case with the 380W power supply it ships with:
http://www.antec.com/us/pro_details_enclosure.php?ProdID=15138

On their page it says 3.0GHz compatible, but is this good enough for the CPU's I'm considering?, the AMD Athlon64 3200+, or Intel 3.0GHz.

As for cooling the case has two fans, a large 80mm rear fan and the power supply fan which is also large. I didn't get the extra large fan in the front of the case because I was also trying to minimize noise(hence, the Sonata case). Anyone have any suggestions, do I need to add this front case fan for better airflow with the new CPU?

The only other component I have is a Maxtor 250GB 7200 RPM SATA drive which will me my main drive. I have an external firewire Western Digital combo drive for backups.

Thanks again for your help and I look forward to reading your suggestions.

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phial

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=p

oh btw id like to note that im totally off on the SSE3 thing. must have been something i read from the Inquirer.. hah

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Spitfire_x86

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That PSU should work fine with Athlon64 3200+

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pickxx

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If you want to keep your case quietier then buy 120mm fans. Not all fans run at 100% all the time. If the fans have temp sensors they will push as much air as they need to, and no more. An 80mm fan has to spin much faster, and therefor louder, then a 120mm fan to push just as much air.
Larger blades moving slower move as much air as small fans going quicker. And the noise comes from the speed of the fans not the size.
 

P4Man

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> The only concern I have right now which maybe some of you
>can help me with, is Intel's new PCI Express and DDR2. Is
>this something I should care about right now or too early
>to tell, or only for early adopters with $$ to burn

Depends what you care about. If you care about performance, there is no point in either PCI-E or DDR2 right now. Neither offers any measurable performance enhancement over AGP or DDR1. In fact, especially in the case of DDR-2, there might be performance drops (even if quite small). You also shouldn't care about either if money is a concern at all. I'm not sure about PCI-E cards, but DDR2 is definately a whole lot more expensive than comparable DDR1 (you'd have to compare the fastest DDR2-533 with decent DDR1-400 to get similar performance).

There are some upsides though; DDR2 has some potential for faster clockspeeds, but unless your motherboard can handle these higher FSB's, its not gonna be for you. And PCI-E also looks promising further in the future. Its going to be the next standard over time, there can be little doubt about that, and it may also bring some performance and feature advantages in the future (things like SLI) so if you intend to hang on to your motherboard or videocard for 2 or 3 years, having PCI-E is a plus since a couple of years from here, AGP could well be dead for high end computing.

All in all, given the price premium and performance status quo as well as the fact it currently limits your choices severely, I feel safe ignoring both for the time being. Next year might be different though.

> I have an Antec Sonata case with the 380W power supply it
>ships with:
>On their page it says 3.0GHz compatible, but is this good
>enough for the CPU's I'm considering?, the AMD Athlon64
>3200+, or Intel 3.0GHz.

Yeah, normally it should be fine.

> Anyone have any suggestions, do I need to add this front
>case fan for better airflow with the new CPU?

Get the cpu/mb/video card first, install them and check temps. If they are too high, you can always add fans if you must, but having 2 case fans and a good PSU should be plenty unless you intend to install half a dozen Raptor harddisks in a cramped case, and/or do serious overclocking.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
 

P4Man

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>if ....if and why AMD 64 next 90nm revision will include
>SSE3???!!

Who cares really. SSE3 is a very minor thing, real world apps making use of it are not likely to see more than a couple percent performance increase under the best circumstances. Those couple of precent are not even going to be enough to close to gap on A64 in any significant way. Its like claiming a Transmeta Efficeon with SSE3 would make more sense than a Northwood because of the "SSE3". Complelete nonsense.

>Yes, Intel instructions are more supported in the computer
>industry

Well, where are all those SSE3 apps then ?

>because Intel writes cpu instructions and sets the
>standards.

Oh, you mean they actually defined AMD64/EM64T ?

>That's why Dell and me use Intel.

No, Dell uses intel because they get very good prices and support for using intel only. You buy intel because don't know any better.

> I was gonna buy an A64 3400+ , but was afraid that i would
> be shooting myself in the foot

So you decided it was better to shoot both foots and a knee by getting a Prescott ?

> No 64-bit future?

Ahem.. well, its not like A64 requires 64 bit software to be usefull, is it ? And how about the 64 bit future of your Prescott ? How bright does that look ?

>no SSE3?

Who cares ?

>No hyperthreading?

Again, for most part: WHO CARES ?
Just as silly as saying, prescott offers no:
-3Dnow! Professional
-SOI
-Cool&Quiet
-integrated memory controller
-Hypertransport
-AMD64 long mode, with enhanced SSE2 performance
-QuantiSpeed architecture
-blah blah blah

What it boils down to is what these chips offer right now, and what they may/will offer additionally in the future, and on both accounts, for most apps (especially games), the A64 leads significantly over Prescott, no matter how many buzzwords you throw at it.

>NO SUPPORT!

Excuse me ? can you name one relevant app that works on Prescott, but not on A64 or something ?

>I feel more secure when i buy Intel for somereason.

I find that easy to believe.

> I always knew that Intel will still be in business 6 yrs
>down the road. That is reassurance i need.

And why is that ? Did you get a 6 year warranty perhaps ? You expect to keep your cpu (or motherboard for that matter) for 6+ years, and if it fails, you would actually bother RMA-ing it ? If not, who the hell cares how long intel or AMD will be around ? Not that there is any reason to believe AMD is going anywhere. Are you as worried about nVidia, Asus or PNY ? You realize your GPU is more expensive than the CPU, and you bought it from it tiny unknown company that may well close their doors even this year ? Do you care ??


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
 

Kanavit

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P4man, when i talked about platform stability. I meant intel offers better upgrade path and stable socket platform. AMD has 4 different sockets now 462, 940, 939, and 754, this will confuse a lot of users uncertainty on which is most futureproof and which will be discontinued, while Intel offers 478 better upgrade path for system longevity. Intel offers prescott cores for 478, celerons, Gallatin cores, and soon more powerful future chips will support 478. That's what i meant. Intel has more stable platform to build upon.

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Cybercraig

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Some more info on what I have so far since some of you mentioned the importance of a good case/power supply. I have an Antec Sonata case with the 380W power supply it ships with:
http://www.antec.com/us/pro_details_enclosure.php?ProdID=15138

On their page it says 3.0GHz compatible, but is this good enough for the CPU's I'm considering?, the AMD Athlon64 3200+, or Intel 3.0GHz
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

A lot depends on your Vid card selection. Worry about the case you want and choose the power supply you need. The 6800 and X800 cards are power hogs. Stick four or five drives in there and a GB of ram and you will be gasping for amps. I would get a big Fortron Source, Thermaltake, Enermax, etc. in the 450 watt range at least. :smile:

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scottchen

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Well if you count socket940, don't forget Intel's Xeon.

AMD's aiming for 754 for mainstream and 939 for enthusiasts, 940 is for servers with its ECC support. 462? Who cares it's time to get rid of it.

Don't listen to anything Kanavit says, because he's a limped dick Intel loving pussy.

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DonnieDarko

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Let's count the intel sockets, 478, lga775, 604 and 603(i'll include these 2 since you included amd's server socket). Oh wow, it looks like they have the same amount of sockets..........

AMD64 2800+
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phial

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Some more info on what I have so far since some of you mentioned the importance of a good case/power supply. I have an Antec Sonata case with the 380W power supply it ships with:
http://www.antec.com/us/pro_details_enclosure.php?ProdID=15138

On their page it says 3.0GHz compatible, but is this good enough for the CPU's I'm considering?, the AMD Athlon64 3200+, or Intel 3.0GHz.


i have the same case, using a AthlonXP overclocked to 2.4-2.5ghz, with a 9800pro along with the other standard parts. my voltages are quite stable. i dnot think im using up nearly what this PSU can put out (because the PSU fan is always running at the minimum RPM, it isnt getting very hot)

as for the rear fan, if you are using the one that came with the case it is a 120mm fan. i find this alone to be very acceptable (it sucks so much air that i have dust lines around the front of my case and around the intake holes, and you can feel the air current by placing your hand at the side of the case holes as well)



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