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CPU Suggestions?

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August 7, 2004 6:06:33 PM

Hi everyone, so I'm doing some research on upgrading my system and thought I'd ask for some opinions after reading the buyer's guide posted by Spitfire.

I'm a college student studying computer science/engineering and an avid gamer. I'm currently running an AMD Duron 1GHz, so you can tell it's definitely time to upgrade before school starts again. :) 

I'm looking at getting at least a 3GHz although I want to keep the price relatively low and don't care about overclocking or spending $$ for a slight benchmark increase. The applications I'll mostly run are development apps, C++/Java compilers, VS .NET, VMWare Workstation to run Linux apps, and some graphics intensive MP games, FPS, etc. all under Windows XP.

So according to the guide, I'm looking at either a P4 3.0GHz, or an AMD Athlon64 3000+, Athlon64 3200+. So the decision is Intel vs. AMD which I know is the subject of much debate.

A very important characteristic I want of the system is reliability. I don't want this thing crashing or being unstable during the semester since it would take time away from my studies. My Duron has worked OKAY, temperature has been fine but I have noticed some random instability at times which I don't want. Of course at the time I was on a very tight budget so I understand if it's the cheap CPU and not AMD being less reiable than Intel necessarily. I do want a cool running CPU since my computer tends to warm up the room and I leave it on all the time.

Lastly, should I care about Intel's new architecture, PCI Express, DDR2, etc.? I don't plan on upgrading for at least another year or so and don't want to be left out in the cold with components later on. I'd appreciate any suggestions/experiences you might offer.

Thanks!,

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August 7, 2004 7:58:28 PM

Well AMD 64 with cool and quiet technology with a good branded mobo should give you satisfaction for years to come. Just get a good PSU (branded 400w minimum)and a good, vented case too. If air stay hot inside the case, dont expect the cpu to cool down. HDD and graphic card add lot of heat inside the case. You better have 3 fans efficiently placed running half speed than one running full speed making lot of noise to exhaust the heat.

cool and quiet lower the speed of the cpu when not used at full load (like surfing the net), minimizing the heat produced.

Cheap cpu are oftenm used with cheap mobo with cheap parts to create cheap system. No matter if it is AMD or Intel. I've seen intel system running instable too, but not because of the processor. Cheap psu will fluctuate and can crash the system under load. poorly vented will keep hot air inside and the cpu will heat it up more instead of cooling down. I've used AMD CPU since Athlon XP with a good PSU in a well vented case and they alway have been very reliable. And since you are develloping apps, well you'll be 64 bits ready too...


-Always put the blame on you first, then on the hardware !!!
August 7, 2004 8:06:55 PM

for complete 100% compatibility , i'd go intel. They make good chipsets, mobos, and cpus. universal support of SSE2, hyperthreading, SSE3m and soon EM64T. Plus you can't lose with mhz. It's something that will always be there. while lower frequency cpus such as the A64 has some disadvantages such as slow video and audio apps. No hyperthreading which means , multi-tasking is slower. Plus x86-64 isn't being utilized , and it looks like it won't be anytime soon either. M$ just delayed windows xp 64-bit till 2005. Who knows when it will come.

DOom3 , and Farcry runs better on my 3.2E for somereason than some dude with an A64 3200+. Maybe because i have a 6800GT , and he as an x800pro.

------
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1GB PC 3200 Dual channel(PAT)
Asus P4P800 Bios 1016
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August 7, 2004 8:40:17 PM

"Plus you can't lose with mhz."

Please kanavit quit saying that it makes you look more than uninformed but completly hopless.

More MHz is always better but only when comparing <b>identical</b> CPU's (why is this so hard for you to grasp) Take the p4 celeron of the <b>NON "D" variety.</b> over clock it to 3 giz and it would prolly be much slower than a amdFX under clocked to 1 giz. So don't say you cant go wrong with MHz it's just plain silly :lol: 

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
August 7, 2004 8:58:30 PM

Damn Kanavit you post is full of errors....
1) AMD has universal support of SSE2

2) EMT64 = AMD64

3) Clockspeed doesn't mean a damn thing, not even in encoding, and if you havent noticed A64 is very competitive when it comes to performance in encoding jobs

4) Ofcourse your 3.2E with GT is faster than one with a XT, doom3 performance is much better with nvidia hardware

To the original poster, i would buy the athlon 64 because you said you are an avid gamer and the A64 perform very good in this area, cool 'n quiet will clock down you processor when you use word and just do basic windows task, this lowers power consumption, lowers temperature, and saves money on the electricity bill.

As far as stability is concerned it's a non-issue today simply because the chipset standard on AMD systems has improved dramatically, stability is NOT something i would worry about.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Madsn on 08/07/04 05:00 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
August 7, 2004 9:25:22 PM

The P4 runs SSE2 faster and more effeciently than Athlon SSE2, because of dynamics of netburst architecture, and some programs don't run SSE2 properly on Athlons because it doesn't recognize it as genuine intel processor.

And EM64T is not the same as AMD64. Intel reversed engineered the technology. It's not completely compatible 100%.

------
Prescott 3.2E 1MB L2 HT
1GB PC 3200 Dual channel(PAT)
Asus P4P800 Bios 1016
PNY Geforce 6800 GT 256MB DDR3
60,823 Aquamarks
August 7, 2004 9:35:42 PM

What a bunch of rubbish, there are no SSE2 errors in the A64.

A64 have a higher SSE2 execution rate / clock than intel and the small advantage The P4 has in SSE2 is entirely due to the clockspeed diffrence. So actually the AMD SSE2 is more effective than the Intel SSE2.

Well AMD64 is much better than EMT64, so why wait for an inferior 64 bit tecnology?
August 7, 2004 9:42:10 PM

Quote:
for complete 100% compatibility , i'd go intel.

good for you. too bad you dont know what your talking about eh :( 

Quote:
They make good chipsets, mobos, and cpus.

some AMD motherboards (usually nvidia chipsets) are some of the best motherboards ive ever seen. yes, Intel does make excellent chipsets. but there are equally excellent ones available for the AMD platform

Quote:
universal support of SSE2, hyperthreading, SSE3m and soon EM64T. Plus you can't lose with mhz. It's something that will always be there. while lower frequency cpus such as the A64 has some disadvantages such as slow video and audio apps. No hyperthreading which means , multi-tasking is slower. Plus x86-64 isn't being utilized , and it looks like it won't be anytime soon either. M$ just delayed windows xp 64-bit till 2005. Who knows when it will come.

A64 has "UNIVERSAL SUPPORT" for SSE2. new core revisions WILL have SSE3. theres rumours that Intels new 64bit prescotts wont be for desktops (servers), and theres also rumours that its not fast. AMD's x86-64 is fast. 64bit is irrelivant you are right because winxp-64 wont be coming out soon, so why mention it as a benifit for goign with new intel chips? oh thats right, beacuse your a snivelling fanboy

Quote:
DOom3 , and Farcry runs better on my 3.2E for somereason than some dude with an A64 3200+. Maybe because i have a 6800GT , and he as an x800pro.


its your GT. your Prescott is slower than just about every A64 model in Doom3

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August 7, 2004 10:14:34 PM

Here is the long and short of it...The intel fanboy is right about a couple things. the P4 has an advantage with video and audio encoding...its like 5-10%. But the A64 has a gaming advantage thats nearly 20%.
If i were you...(and i was in your situation like a month ago) i would go with what i have but upgraded because of the recent price drop.

A64 3000+, Chaintech VNF3-250...then get 1stick of 512MB name brand value RAM(i say one stick because then you can upgrade with another stick easily. the chaintech board doesn't have duel channel so one dimm is just the same as two to that board. and you can always add the extra RAM if you think you need it later.), the HD of your choice (i always recomend a 200GB IDE Western Digital, it has a great GB/$ ratio.), An optical drive of some kind, the vid card of your choice and all you need from that is a case and Power supply. Just make sure you get a decent power supply. Generic PSU are the devil. brand name cost more but are 99% relyable.

A64 holds it's own in all apps, but in games it KILLS P4's. You might want to figure out what processor brand you want and then figure out everything BUT a processor and then use the money left for the processor.
Its better to have a A642800+ with relyable RAM, Relyable power, and harddrive....then to have a A64 3200+ with nothing booting up.

Check the other topics, most of the main ones have some guides to kinda give you direction in your search.
August 7, 2004 11:10:48 PM

ok, Phial LOL

if ....if and why AMD 64 next 90nm revision will include SSE3???!!! Yes, Intel instructions are more supported in the computer industry , because Intel writes cpu instructions and sets the standards. That's why Dell and me use Intel. I was gonna buy an A64 3400+ , but was afraid that i would be shooting myself in the foot. No 64-bit future? no SSE3? No hyperthreading? NO SUPPORT! I feel more secure when i buy Intel for somereason. I always knew that Intel will still be in business 6 yrs down the road. That is reassurance i need. Can't say the same thing for AMD though..

------
Prescott 3.2E 1MB L2 HT
1GB PC 3200 Dual channel(PAT)
Asus P4P800 Bios 1016
PNY Geforce 6800 GT 256MB DDR3
60,823 Aquamarks
August 8, 2004 12:01:11 AM

dude....

first off, I know exactly what your feeling.. its the same kind of feeling you have when watchign your favorite hockey team. you dont care if they lose, they are still the best and you feel insulted if anyone says they arent

its a company dude. brand loyalty is dumb.. the securness you feel is unfounded. AMD chips are very high quality, they wont get crushed when you install your heatsink, they wont have scratches from shoddy manufacturing, they wont cause your windows to crash, they dont have a higher failure rate than Intel chips.

Quote:
if ....if and why AMD 64 next 90nm revision will include SSE3???!!! Yes, Intel instructions are more supported in the computer industry , because Intel writes cpu instructions and sets the standards. That's why Dell and me use Intel.

Intel has been around sinse the beginning of time, and basically created x86 afaik. thats why they set the standards. its just like every other industry, they have made a name for themselves.
Dell uses Intel for this very reason, because of the fact taht more people know of Intel (and support them) they will sell more computers. They dont use Intel because they are better/faster cpu's.

Quote:
I was gonna buy an A64 3400+ , but was afraid that i would be shooting myself in the foot. No 64-bit future? no SSE3? No hyperthreading? NO SUPPORT!


yes ive heard from mutliple places that new revisions will have some of SSE3.. most SSE3 are new HT instrutions, which obviously cant be implimented on A64's

Athlons made 5 years ago are STILL more than fast enough to use in WindowsXP for the averate home user. they are excellent fast chips, and when they came out they suprised the hell out of everyone. theres alot of poeple who still use Athlons tbirds, beacuse thats how fast they were. meanwhile i dont see alot of people using Pentium3's or Celeron2's at all ..

dude you like Intel just because they are Intel. it makes all their features liek "SSE3" sound cooler and more advanced, and it makes you feel justified paying more. Again, ive favored brands before (like ATI cards.. i was a hardcore fanboy until i realized how silly it was.. i thought that all ATI technology was better, but i didnt even know why or the technical details behind it al.. obviously you dont either, because you believe in the MHZ-myth for christ sake). you are complety wrong tho ..

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August 8, 2004 4:48:39 AM

Now that was well said! Nothing you can add from there! If you're going to recommend something over something else, it really helps if you have built both. Until you do, you are just guessing how good one really is over the other. I happen to like both AMD and Intel for different reasons. I am, however, an PC fanboy! :smile:

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August 8, 2004 5:48:23 AM

oh man, I love reading Phial's posts! :smile:
August 8, 2004 5:50:10 AM

I'd like to thank all of you for replying to my questions and giving me some good things to think about with regards to both Intel and AMD. I've actually built both kinds of systems but as I mentioned it's been a while so I have to catch up on the new technology and try to figure out what's best for me.

As for brand loyalty that doesn't play a role in my decision at all. Like Phial mentioned they're just companies and I'll vote with my $$ by buying the CPU that provides the better price/reliability/performance for the dollar. Competition is after all a good thing because we ultimately win as the customer. The only concern I have right now which maybe some of you can help me with, is Intel's new PCI Express and DDR2. Is this something I should care about right now or too early to tell, or only for early adopters with $$ to burn? I noticed some manufacturers are starting to build systems with PCI express in their high end systems.

As for compatibility Kanavit mentioned Intel being more compatible. To be honest, with the Duron I'm using now I haven't had any problems in compatibility. Even in development it's not an issue with modern compilers so that's not something I worry about. I mentioned stability being somewhat of an annoying problem with my current system but again the cheap CPU/Cheap RAM does make a cheap system as Pat said. That's one of the things I'm aiming to fix this time around.

I have to say I'm maybe leaning more towards AMD for a couple of reasons. Price/performance ratio seems to be on AMD's side. If stability/reliability is a non-issue with modern CPU's and chipsets and the AMD CPU runs cooler that's a plus. A cooler CPU makes me more comfortable in regards to stability/reliability. The performance advantage that Intel might have in encoding audio/video isn't so important since that's not my primary use for the system. Even if I do decide to do that, like I mentioned in the original post, I'm not trying to post the winning benchmark number with my system. I want to use it to run applications and if it takes a few more seconds to run an unattended encoding task, it's not worth the extra $$ to me personally.

Some more info on what I have so far since some of you mentioned the importance of a good case/power supply. I have an Antec Sonata case with the 380W power supply it ships with:
http://www.antec.com/us/pro_details_enclosure.php?ProdI...

On their page it says 3.0GHz compatible, but is this good enough for the CPU's I'm considering?, the AMD Athlon64 3200+, or Intel 3.0GHz.

As for cooling the case has two fans, a large 80mm rear fan and the power supply fan which is also large. I didn't get the extra large fan in the front of the case because I was also trying to minimize noise(hence, the Sonata case). Anyone have any suggestions, do I need to add this front case fan for better airflow with the new CPU?

The only other component I have is a Maxtor 250GB 7200 RPM SATA drive which will me my main drive. I have an external firewire Western Digital combo drive for backups.

Thanks again for your help and I look forward to reading your suggestions.

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August 8, 2004 10:00:27 AM

If you want to keep your case quietier then buy 120mm fans. Not all fans run at 100% all the time. If the fans have temp sensors they will push as much air as they need to, and no more. An 80mm fan has to spin much faster, and therefor louder, then a 120mm fan to push just as much air.
Larger blades moving slower move as much air as small fans going quicker. And the noise comes from the speed of the fans not the size.
August 8, 2004 1:02:06 PM

> The only concern I have right now which maybe some of you
>can help me with, is Intel's new PCI Express and DDR2. Is
>this something I should care about right now or too early
>to tell, or only for early adopters with $$ to burn

Depends what you care about. If you care about performance, there is no point in either PCI-E or DDR2 right now. Neither offers any measurable performance enhancement over AGP or DDR1. In fact, especially in the case of DDR-2, there might be performance drops (even if quite small). You also shouldn't care about either if money is a concern at all. I'm not sure about PCI-E cards, but DDR2 is definately a whole lot more expensive than comparable DDR1 (you'd have to compare the fastest DDR2-533 with decent DDR1-400 to get similar performance).

There are some upsides though; DDR2 has some potential for faster clockspeeds, but unless your motherboard can handle these higher FSB's, its not gonna be for you. And PCI-E also looks promising further in the future. Its going to be the next standard over time, there can be little doubt about that, and it may also bring some performance and feature advantages in the future (things like SLI) so if you intend to hang on to your motherboard or videocard for 2 or 3 years, having PCI-E is a plus since a couple of years from here, AGP could well be dead for high end computing.

All in all, given the price premium and performance status quo as well as the fact it currently limits your choices severely, I feel safe ignoring both for the time being. Next year might be different though.

> I have an Antec Sonata case with the 380W power supply it
>ships with:
>On their page it says 3.0GHz compatible, but is this good
>enough for the CPU's I'm considering?, the AMD Athlon64
>3200+, or Intel 3.0GHz.

Yeah, normally it should be fine.

> Anyone have any suggestions, do I need to add this front
>case fan for better airflow with the new CPU?

Get the cpu/mb/video card first, install them and check temps. If they are too high, you can always add fans if you must, but having 2 case fans and a good PSU should be plenty unless you intend to install half a dozen Raptor harddisks in a cramped case, and/or do serious overclocking.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
August 8, 2004 1:17:33 PM

>if ....if and why AMD 64 next 90nm revision will include
>SSE3???!!

Who cares really. SSE3 is a very minor thing, real world apps making use of it are not likely to see more than a couple percent performance increase under the best circumstances. Those couple of precent are not even going to be enough to close to gap on A64 in any significant way. Its like claiming a Transmeta Efficeon with SSE3 would make more sense than a Northwood because of the "SSE3". Complelete nonsense.

>Yes, Intel instructions are more supported in the computer
>industry

Well, where are all those SSE3 apps then ?

>because Intel writes cpu instructions and sets the
>standards.

Oh, you mean they actually defined AMD64/EM64T ?

>That's why Dell and me use Intel.

No, Dell uses intel because they get very good prices and support for using intel only. You buy intel because don't know any better.

> I was gonna buy an A64 3400+ , but was afraid that i would
> be shooting myself in the foot

So you decided it was better to shoot both foots and a knee by getting a Prescott ?

> No 64-bit future?

Ahem.. well, its not like A64 requires 64 bit software to be usefull, is it ? And how about the 64 bit future of your Prescott ? How bright does that look ?

>no SSE3?

Who cares ?

>No hyperthreading?

Again, for most part: WHO CARES ?
Just as silly as saying, prescott offers no:
-3Dnow! Professional
-SOI
-Cool&Quiet
-integrated memory controller
-Hypertransport
-AMD64 long mode, with enhanced SSE2 performance
-QuantiSpeed architecture
-blah blah blah

What it boils down to is what these chips offer right now, and what they may/will offer additionally in the future, and on both accounts, for most apps (especially games), the A64 leads significantly over Prescott, no matter how many buzzwords you throw at it.

>NO SUPPORT!

Excuse me ? can you name one relevant app that works on Prescott, but not on A64 or something ?

>I feel more secure when i buy Intel for somereason.

I find that easy to believe.

> I always knew that Intel will still be in business 6 yrs
>down the road. That is reassurance i need.

And why is that ? Did you get a 6 year warranty perhaps ? You expect to keep your cpu (or motherboard for that matter) for 6+ years, and if it fails, you would actually bother RMA-ing it ? If not, who the hell cares how long intel or AMD will be around ? Not that there is any reason to believe AMD is going anywhere. Are you as worried about nVidia, Asus or PNY ? You realize your GPU is more expensive than the CPU, and you bought it from it tiny unknown company that may well close their doors even this year ? Do you care ??


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
August 8, 2004 2:50:30 PM

P4man, when i talked about platform stability. I meant intel offers better upgrade path and stable socket platform. AMD has 4 different sockets now 462, 940, 939, and 754, this will confuse a lot of users uncertainty on which is most futureproof and which will be discontinued, while Intel offers 478 better upgrade path for system longevity. Intel offers prescott cores for 478, celerons, Gallatin cores, and soon more powerful future chips will support 478. That's what i meant. Intel has more stable platform to build upon.

------
Prescott 3.2E 1MB L2 HT
1GB PC 3200 Dual channel(PAT)
Asus P4P800 Bios 1016
PNY Geforce 6800 GT 256MB DDR3
60,823 Aquamarks
August 8, 2004 3:26:30 PM

Some more info on what I have so far since some of you mentioned the importance of a good case/power supply. I have an Antec Sonata case with the 380W power supply it ships with:
http://www.antec.com/us/pro_details_enclosure.php?ProdI...

On their page it says 3.0GHz compatible, but is this good enough for the CPU's I'm considering?, the AMD Athlon64 3200+, or Intel 3.0GHz
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

A lot depends on your Vid card selection. Worry about the case you want and choose the power supply you need. The 6800 and X800 cards are power hogs. Stick four or five drives in there and a GB of ram and you will be gasping for amps. I would get a big Fortron Source, Thermaltake, Enermax, etc. in the 450 watt range at least. :smile:

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August 8, 2004 3:38:09 PM

Well if you count socket940, don't forget Intel's Xeon.

AMD's aiming for 754 for mainstream and 939 for enthusiasts, 940 is for servers with its ECC support. 462? Who cares it's time to get rid of it.

Don't listen to anything Kanavit says, because he's a limped dick Intel loving pussy.

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August 8, 2004 3:49:04 PM

Let's count the intel sockets, 478, lga775, 604 and 603(i'll include these 2 since you included amd's server socket). Oh wow, it looks like they have the same amount of sockets..........

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August 8, 2004 3:51:52 PM

Quote:
Some more info on what I have so far since some of you mentioned the importance of a good case/power supply. I have an Antec Sonata case with the 380W power supply it ships with:
http://www.antec.com/us/pro_details_enclosure.php?ProdI...

On their page it says 3.0GHz compatible, but is this good enough for the CPU's I'm considering?, the AMD Athlon64 3200+, or Intel 3.0GHz.



i have the same case, using a AthlonXP overclocked to 2.4-2.5ghz, with a 9800pro along with the other standard parts. my voltages are quite stable. i dnot think im using up nearly what this PSU can put out (because the PSU fan is always running at the minimum RPM, it isnt getting very hot)

as for the rear fan, if you are using the one that came with the case it is a 120mm fan. i find this alone to be very acceptable (it sucks so much air that i have dust lines around the front of my case and around the intake holes, and you can feel the air current by placing your hand at the side of the case holes as well)



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August 8, 2004 3:54:17 PM

Quote:
Let's count the intel sockets, 478, lga775, 604 and 603(i'll include these 2 since you included amd's server socket). Oh wow, it looks like they have the same amount of sockets..........

and lets not forget Socket 423 (P4 Willamette days), which is totally dead.

AMD's socket A has been around for years, before Socket 423 actaually, so there goes the "platform stability" theory. AMD just released a new CPU (Sempron) for SocketA so its still being supported. in fact, my current motherboard will accept CPU's as far back as 600mhz Durons. And my first socketA board which my mother now has, will take AthlonXP tbreds , and this board is 4 years old.

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August 8, 2004 4:32:21 PM

I wanted to add my 2 cents. I build computers all the time. I have 4 pc's in my home. One for me and 2 for my kids, and a notebook. I have no preference for different cpu manufactures. It's simple. Make the best product and I'll buy it.

My opinion on the different cpu's depend on how much you are willing to spend. First less than a $100 for cpu. AMD wins this one all the way. Celeron's absolutely suck. I bought a celeron 2.4 with the intention of getting rid of it pretty quick. It has been in my machine for 6 months and thank's to doom3, it is now being replaced with a 2.4c Northwood. My kid has a amd athalonxp 2000+ and it smokes the celeron. Celeron's suck.
The only good thing about a celeron is that it has the same pin package as a real p4 chip which will allow you to upgrade easily.

$200. I'd say this is pretty much a toss up but my prevalence goes to intel. The p4 with 800fsb will just about ruin any athalon xp's day and the 2.4c will smoke my athalon64 3000+ in my notebook. Maybe when we see the 64bit extensions taken advantage of the amd processors will do better.

$200 or better. Well, I don't recommend any in this price category. The new intel chips, motherboards, and PCI-e are just to pricy and are on the leading edge of computing. Who knows whether this will make it down to the mainstream market. I say it will but with several redesigns on the way. I'd leave this stuff alone until it starts getting into the markets more and has a clear upgradeable path otherwise you could be just out of a whole bunch of money.

Thank goodness for competition though. It gives all of us choices. The worst company in the world right now is Microsoft. They think there ***t don't stink and they are putting it to each and every one of us right now. Where do they get off with these prices of theirs. Somebody needs to do something about this. Please.

All that was stated above was just my opinion. Opinions are like ***holes. Everybody's got one.
August 8, 2004 4:39:44 PM

thanks for the input, but i disagree on some things..


you statement "The p4 with 800fsb will just about ruin any athalon xp's day and the 2.4c will smoke my athalon64 3000+ in my notebook." is a little too broad. it depends on the application. and I know my Athlonxp-Mobile is faster for just about everything but the multimedia apps' that P4's shine in

and the 3000+ A64? what kinda ram and chipset do you have along with this processor? comparing a desktop computer to a laptop has too many other things that could make the comparison inaccurate

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August 8, 2004 5:08:48 PM

Sry man have to agree with phial, it all depends on what you do, i'm a gamer, so s754 a64 is for me, my dad's not, that's why he has a P4 Northwood system, faster multiprocessing, and mobos can handle 4x512mb rams, and my mom just needs something for email/word stuff, so she has an athlonXP, cause it's cheap.


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August 8, 2004 5:18:54 PM

Your both right. My athalon64 comparison is not accurate. A laptop in general cannot be as powerful as a desktop. The reason being is you can't customize the parts like you can a desktop.

But also let me add something. What i was talking about above was running everything stock and at stock speeds. I know that the athalon xp mobile when overclocked will damn near out run everything. It is the absolute bargain right now if you overclock. It is going to be my next processor.

Right now I do not overclock but that's probably going to change real quick. I just get enough problems as is without kind of asking for it. I have a network here and the kids constantly do something that screws something up. I don't trust them with an overclocked system just yet.
Overall, I think amd is the better platform, but in that little window that I was talking about P4's really shine.
August 8, 2004 6:44:43 PM

yea, overclocking is definately NOT a common thing, so your stock AthlonXP to P4C comparison is actually pretty accurate.. but then theres also price/performance, but you mentioned taht as well and i agree for the most part :) 



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August 8, 2004 8:41:43 PM

Thanks again for all the info, I've decided on which CPU to get now so this upgrade can start coming together. I'm going with the AMD 64 3200+ ClawHammer. Spitfire's guide doesn't seem to mention this one but it does mention the Newcastle which is the same but only 512k L2 cache? Correct me if I'm wrong, I decided the ClawHammer was a better deal with 1MB L2 and the price difference is $6 at Newegg.com. The Newcastle is $208, the ClawHammer is $214. :)  Might want to mention that in the guide which is already quite excellent.

As for my Sonata case, someone mentioned the case actually has a 120mm fan in the rear which I incorrectly stated as 80mm. I do feel a pretty good airflow so I'll stick with the two stock fans on the Sonata and see how the temps look as someone suggested.

For the CPU heatsink/Fan I'm considering the Zalman CNPS7000B-Cu. Anyone using this combo or have other suggestions? I'm using a slightly older Zalman on my current system and it's worked well and quietly too. Also I was wondering, AMD recommends thermal paste for installing the heatsink/fan, which is a good kind nowadays? Make much difference?

Thanks,

AvatarX
August 8, 2004 9:38:34 PM

Quote:
For the CPU heatsink/Fan I'm considering the Zalman CNPS7000B-Cu. Anyone using this combo or have other suggestions? I'm using a slightly older Zalman on my current system and it's worked well and quietly too. Also I was wondering, AMD recommends thermal paste for installing the heatsink/fan, which is a good kind nowadays? Make much difference?



im the one that has the Sonata case

i have the Zalman CNPS7000B-Cu as well. its one of the best HSF"s you can buy for the money, and its almost silent. im very impressed with it. and combined with the good airflow/sound dampening features of the Sonata case, i find it to be an excellent setup


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August 10, 2004 7:00:57 AM

So I'm trying to find one of these Zalman CNPS7000B-Cu and I can't find any place to buy one online. Where did you get yours and how much?

AvatarX
August 10, 2004 7:23:49 AM

>P4man, when i talked about platform stability.

When did you ? I saw you post a lot of meaningless BS, and I have yet to see you reply on those issues.

>I meant intel offers better upgrade path and stable socket
>platform. AMD has 4 different sockets now 462, 940, 939,
>and 754, this will confuse a lot of users uncertainty on
>which is most futureproof and which will be discontinued,

Intel has (had) even more:
PGA603
mPGA604
s423
s478 P4
s478 Pentium M
s775
I could even toss in Itanium sockets

Not that this matters, because nearly no one upgrades their cpu anyway..

>and soon more powerful future chips will support 478.

Whoha.. some upgrade path there.. maybe another 6% clockspeed ? At least of your motherboard happens to support the correct FMB version. Anyway, maybe you ought to recommend socket 370 still, you can buy VIA chips that plug into it and even more powerfull versions are on their way.


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
August 10, 2004 9:21:00 AM

Quote:
I'm going with the AMD 64 3200+ ClawHammer. Spitfire's guide doesn't seem to mention this one but it does mention the Newcastle which is the same but only 512k L2 cache? Correct me if I'm wrong, I decided the ClawHammer was a better deal with 1MB L2 and the price difference is $6 at Newegg.com. The Newcastle is $208, the ClawHammer is $214. :) 

Newcastle 3200+ has 10% higher clock than Clawhammer 3200+. With Athlon64, 10% higher clock will result in 7-9% higher performance, but with extra 512k L2 cache, you won't gain more than 3% in most of the apps.

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August 10, 2004 7:31:28 PM

Thanks for the info Spitfire, I was a bit confused about that and didn't realize the clock speed difference. I went ahead and ordered the 3200+ Newcastle from NewEgg yesterday so can't wait to put the system together.

Thanks for all your help!
August 11, 2004 2:33:42 AM

Your problems with the duron probably stemmed from the chipset. I would bet via 133 type. Most Durons have been very stable.
The reason I bring this up is to encourage you to get a mobo with a better chipset. Please get a board with the Nforce3 250 chipset.
A little history for Kanguy et al. Amd was manufacturing ics before Intel existed. The first mass produced x86 chips were made by Amd. At the time, Intel had no fabs, and relied on Amd to do the production
August 11, 2004 3:03:56 AM

my moms duron has been running for 4 years, and its on almost 24/7

has a crappy heatsink, CPU is usually at 60c.. id hate to see its temps right now sinse its summer LOL!

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August 11, 2004 6:31:24 AM

I haven't been here in the CPU board for quite some time now. LOL this thread is really amusing. Kanavit should be called dimwit from now on.

:cool: :eek:  :redface: :frown: :lol:  :mad:  :eek:  :smile: :tongue: :wink: :evil: 
August 11, 2004 8:46:30 AM

>The first mass produced x86 chips were made by Amd. At the
>time, Intel had no fabs, and relied on Amd to do the
>production

I don't believe that really. AMD may exist longer than intel for all I know or care, but Intel made their own cpu's. Only later it used AMD as a second source to satisfy IBM's demand for having a second supplier. Not that any of this really matters today though..

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
August 11, 2004 5:37:38 PM

Yes. As I recall, intel began selling it's products to the US Armed Forces. The armed forces had a policy then (not sure if they still do) that they would never buy any product from just one manufacturer. They always wanted to be able to buy from at least 2, that way they would be assured that one of the manufacturers would not arbitrarily raise prices, because the other would undercut them. Intel had nobody that made a similar enough product, so AMD was basically started as a secondary supplier of Intel chips. I think it was around 386-486 maybe policy changed, or Intel stopped selling to the armed forces, but they didn't resign with AMD to produce their new generation of chips. then AMD started white-boxing to produce pin-out compatible chips for intel sockets. I don't know when the actual processors became divergent enough to need separate sockets.

"It's too late now anyway. That song is stuck in my head and the only way to get rid of it is to blow it out. With a bullet!! - Carl
August 11, 2004 9:56:03 PM

>As I recall, intel began selling it's products to the US
>Armed Forces. The armed forces had a policy then (not sure
>if they still do) that they would never buy any product
>from just one manufacturer.

I always understood it was actually IBM's policy, and to make sure IBM could pitch two suppliers against each other, but I could be wrong..

>I think it was around 386-486

I know for fact AMD produced the 286 under licence, and I'd be suprised if they didn't make the 8088/8086 as well.

> or Intel stopped selling to the armed forces

Intel no longer selling to the US army or intellgence agencies ? I sort of doubt it really :D  Its more likely that IBM just was no longer in a position to demand anything from intel (with Compaq and other clone makers putting so much pressure on it), so intel wanted to see AMD stop competing with it.

>then AMD started white-boxing to produce pin-out compatible
>chips for intel sockets.

there was a legal battle, I don't know the details either, but from what I remember, since the 386, AMD couldn't use intel's masksets anymore, since the 486 they where forced to write their own microcode (which they reverse engineered), and ever since after (K5 /K6/...), the entire cpu was their own design (or purchased, like Next Gens K6). AMD and intel settled outside court I think, and the deal was AMD could no longer use Intel's design after the 486, not the same socket after the Pentium (pro/2/3..) but AMD could use (actually, licence) the x86 instruction set with all its extentions (MMX, SSE,..), and vice versa, Intel could use all of AMD's ISA extentions (like 3DNow, which they never did, and AMD64, which they adopted now).

Anything else, like bus/FSB/socket infrastructure is no longer shared, and obviously process engineering and implementation details are patents both companies own -or violate in the case of clipper :p 

BTW, intel tried a different approach when they started IPF. They cemented it with patents to make sure no one could ever legally make compatible clones. The result is no one even tries, but also that Itanium has a very hard time taking off. Intel should have learned from Apple that a closed ISA has much less of a chance than one where there is competition driving innovation (like in the x86 world). Its this competition that made x86 the huge success it is now, not its technical merrits since pretty much everyone agrees x86 ISA is an anachronism compared to Power/Alpha/Mips/IPF

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
August 12, 2004 1:34:41 AM

As far as I recall, Intel was the patent holder for 8088, but IBM could not get chips from them, as thier fab was basicly R&D bassed, with some memory capabilities. IBM looked to AMD at Intel's request, as they had working relations.
The speaker that I heard this from, implied that the Technicians at AMD were the people who actually got the thing to work.
I should mention that the topic of the lecture was F. Faggin, Father of Silicon Technology.
August 12, 2004 2:50:43 AM

I'm in a smiliar situation and from all the reading I've done it appears at this time the best performance for the money is the AMD 64, particulary if you are into gaming. The only thing that leans me toward the Intel is its better ability at encoding video. But still, it appears the A64 is a better bet if you aren't looking at upgrading for awhile and want a good value. If you do go with the AMD check out Nvidia's latest Nforce3 250, the older NForce3 150 was inferior but the new chipset seems to be the better choice right now (if not by much). Hope that helps.
!