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Visual Pinball Sold to Ultracade

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Anonymous
August 26, 2005 11:50:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Here's a post from David Foley (who tried to (c) the MAME name (see
story at
http://aarongiles.com/weblog/archives/2005/03/mame_trad...)

Quote:

Let me clarify what we have done, what we are doing, and what we are
not doing.

1) We are building a multi-game pinball machine called Pinball Legends.
Similar in style to our Arcade Legends and UltraCade machines.

2) We have licensed the Visual Pinball engine from Randy Davis to use
as a basis for our product.

3) We are in the process of licensing other code libraries and engines
for this product as well.

4) We have offered VP table & script authors a royalty to use the work
that they have already done.

5) We have absolutely no intention of doing anything but bringing to
market a commerical product based on the great body of work that
already exists, and combine it with the rights to many of the classic
pinball tables that we have secured.

6) Any rumors of us trying to change what is going on in the community
is just bad rumors. In fact, we will be offering our custom designed
I/O card with motion sensor and digital plunger as stand alone items so
that people that wish to build a desktop pinball controller to play
with Visual Pinball will have the benefit of all of the inputs for
Visual Pinball, motion input to shake the table, and a real plunger
encoded to correspond with the plunger. We even intend on giving our
code modifications that we have been doing to Visual Pinball back to
Randy to be released into the community so that everyone who has
invested time and effort in the Visual Pinball platform will benefit
from the work that we are doing to the engine.

If you have questions or concerns feel free to contact me directly at
david.foley@ultracade.com

[end quote]


You can get the tables FOR FREE at www.vpforums.com/vptables
Please voice your opinion and don't let this guy's greed poison a great
thing.
http://www.vpforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadi...

Thanks
Phil
http://mrhide.pinnesota.org
(Table author / picture provider)

More about : visual pinball sold ultracade

Anonymous
August 27, 2005 12:08:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Here's the thing Mike:

I took thousands of pictures to help the project and seeing greedy
people just come and expect to sell it is just plain wrong. I am really
feeling bad about this
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 1:19:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Are they authoring their own tables, or at least compensating the
existing authors if they use their work? As long as the public domain
files remain available for free, it may be a tough sell for a unit that
plays the same games just with a bigger screen and a pin style cab???
Related resources
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 2:11:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

This is just stupid.
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 4:29:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

There's precedent for ripping off the work of people who thought they
were building a free online resource for all time:

Gracenote
aka CDDB

This sleazy company got started by taking all the work that people had
done, entering their artist/song/title information from their music CD
collections, and then cutting off access to the database except to
those who paid. Very disappointing.

I hope Ultracade doesn't follow the same footsteps as Gracenote.

What I hope for is that the existing practice of "look the other way"
continues, with respect to copyright infringement of pinball ROM's and
artwork. To this day, none of the VP/VPM tables are technically legal.
If they were to crack down now, it would be a disaster, and just drive
everything underground (more). They can go the other way, though, and
earn a lot of goodwill! It would be a good gesture of goodwill for
Ultracade and "Bally" to issue a statement retroactively legalizing all
freeware VP/VPM games for all time, and in exchange, they get to use
the entire VP/VPM body of work as a basis for their commercial product.

Josh
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 7:00:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

How the hell can making a profit be poisoning something? It sounds like he
is licensing this and doing the right thing. This might be a really cool
product! If you want to play it for free, then stay away and don't play one
IF you ever see one on location.
Mike

"Mrhide" <mrhide@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125111030.090380.82770@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Here's a post from David Foley (who tried to (c) the MAME name (see
> story at
> http://aarongiles.com/weblog/archives/2005/03/mame_trad...)
>
>
Quote:

> Let me clarify what we have done, what we are doing, and what we are
> not doing.
>
> 1) We are building a multi-game pinball machine called Pinball Legends.
> Similar in style to our Arcade Legends and UltraCade machines.
>
> 2) We have licensed the Visual Pinball engine from Randy Davis to use
> as a basis for our product.
>
> 3) We are in the process of licensing other code libraries and engines
> for this product as well.
>
> 4) We have offered VP table & script authors a royalty to use the work
> that they have already done.
>
> 5) We have absolutely no intention of doing anything but bringing to
> market a commerical product based on the great body of work that
> already exists, and combine it with the rights to many of the classic
> pinball tables that we have secured.
>
> 6) Any rumors of us trying to change what is going on in the community
> is just bad rumors. In fact, we will be offering our custom designed
> I/O card with motion sensor and digital plunger as stand alone items so
> that people that wish to build a desktop pinball controller to play
> with Visual Pinball will have the benefit of all of the inputs for
> Visual Pinball, motion input to shake the table, and a real plunger
> encoded to correspond with the plunger. We even intend on giving our
> code modifications that we have been doing to Visual Pinball back to
> Randy to be released into the community so that everyone who has
> invested time and effort in the Visual Pinball platform will benefit
> from the work that we are doing to the engine.
>
> If you have questions or concerns feel free to contact me directly at
> david.foley@ultracade.com
>
> [end quote]
>
>
> You can get the tables FOR FREE at www.vpforums.com/vptables
> Please voice your opinion and don't let this guy's greed poison a great
> thing.
> http://www.vpforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadi...
>
> Thanks
> Phil
> http://mrhide.pinnesota.org
> (Table author / picture provider)
>
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 7:20:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

It would be the same as if the pinball database wer to go "pay per use"
Sure the info was put into that persons hands, but it was a collective
effort of hundreds of people.
I feel the same way when I see someone selling a manual or schematic that I
personally spent hours scanning and digitally cleaning so that it would be
available for free to people who want to fix their machines.

Greg


"Mrhide" <mrhide@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125112115.155800.210840@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Here's the thing Mike:
>
> I took thousands of pictures to help the project and seeing greedy
> people just come and expect to sell it is just plain wrong. I am really
> feeling bad about this
>
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 7:30:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Well, this company is in the business of selling cabinets, not
software, right? I mean they do offer some games with their MAME cabs
but that was what sort of legitimized MAME legally...having some legal
games you could purchase and use on your setup.

For people that can't build their own cabinet or don't want to spend
the time, these companies are beneficial.
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 10:53:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I encourage anyone who wants to read more about this to see the
VPForums thread:

http://www.vpforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadi...

It's tough to convince people in VPForums that you're doing a good
thing, but I think the Ultracade folks have generally been very good
about explaining their intentions and what they do NOT want to do (kill
the VP community).

Here's an example from David Foley:

"Absolutely, we have no intention of changing the state of what has
gone on in the community. I'm even writing into the contract that we
are simply licensing the body of work to use in our implementation and
that we have no claim to it with respect to any other use. We have no
concerns about people continuing to get and play as they do now, we
simply are looking to save time and effort in recreating the tables.
Some great table authors have agreed to work with us and we are very
excited about that. We have secured some of the best tables ever seen
on VP, and look forward to putting out an amazing product.

On that note, if anyone here has suggestions for our product, we are
open to input from anyone. We think we have a great plan in place, but
are always open to great suggestions from the community."

Sounds like a lot of care is being taken with the fact that the VP
community has helped such a product to become possible. It looks like
it could be pretty sweet, actually. And Josh makes a great point here:
to this day, none of the VP/VPM tables are technically legal. The
Ultracade group has done the same thing with video, working on doing
things in a way that can be both commercially viable and legal. People
who have worked on VP can choose not to be involved, so I don't see how
this is a problem.

I also want to point out that almost everyone in the linked VPForums
discussion has been civil and thoughful in the discussion, except for
one "MrHide". His reply to the above quote from David Foley was:

"you want input ? Take your product and shove it into your output"

It's fine if you don't want to be involved. Sounds to me like the
Ultracade project could have lived on without any input from the VP
community other than Randy Davis' engine, so to me, it's pretty cool
that they would want to use (and improve, and PAY FOR) the existing
tables other VP people have made.

In the end, MrHide may think of it as "vulgar capitalism", and that's
fine. Opt out. Your free community won't be affected in the least.
You're welcome to try to bring the project crashing down, but in the
end they can (and will) get the job done without you. MrHide said in
this thread, "I took thousands of pictures to help the project and
seeing greedy people just come and expect to sell it is just plain
wrong. I am really feeling bad about this." I don't see how anything
Mr. Foley said would suggest he is trying to sell YOUR work. He can't
sell your work. He can sell the licensed work of the fine people of
Bly/Wms, Capcom, and other pin companies -- and he can sell licensed
work by people in the VP community. I suppose his company will need to
take a few thousand pictures instead of paying you a royalty for your
work.

I look forward to seeing Pinball Legends sometime in the next year.
Hopefully the game and physics will "feel" right...!

- Bowen
August 27, 2005 11:52:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

In article <1125111030.090380.82770@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Mrhide" <mrhide@yahoo.com> wrote:

> We even intend on giving our
> code modifications that we have been doing to Visual Pinball back to
> Randy to be released into the community so that everyone who has
> invested time and effort in the Visual Pinball platform will benefit
> from the work that we are doing to the engine.

Bullsh*t! If you knew how to code anything you wouldn't need to keep
STEALING other people's work.

Go do something yourself you scum!

Hopefully the authors will not sell their tables to this scumbag!

Hopefully, the rights to the Bally WIlliams stuff rests with Wayne and
Gene for this sort of thing. And I'm sure Stern won't go for it - I'd
hope!

Time for the community to stand up and be counted!

Cheers
MacMan
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 12:30:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

On 27 Aug 2005 00:29:38 -0700, "Krellan" <krellan@gmail.com> wrote:
>What I hope for is that the existing practice of "look the other way"
>continues, with respect to copyright infringement of pinball ROM's and
>artwork. To this day, none of the VP/VPM tables are technically legal.
> If they were to crack down now, it would be a disaster, and just drive
>everything underground (more). They can go the other way, though, and
>earn a lot of goodwill! It would be a good gesture of goodwill for
>Ultracade and "Bally" to issue a statement retroactively legalizing all
>freeware VP/VPM games for all time, and in exchange, they get to use
>the entire VP/VPM body of work as a basis for their commercial product.

And where is the profit for the owner of all that artwork
(Bally/Williams and Gottlieb being the only two still around to
enforce)? This should be *very* interesting to watch. It was one thing
when it was all freeware run on a PC. It's entirely something
different when it shows up in a pinball-like cabinet for sale in the
same places that Stern sells new machines, and presumably MPA will
also be selling machines.

Craig
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 1:36:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Maybe I'm naive here, but could this potentially be a *good* thing for
pinball?

Perhaps if Mr. Foley *licensed* all the ROMS/tables from Wayne or Gtb LLC
and made a product that made people want to play pinball?

He has said he will pay table creators to use their work, right? I would
assume (I know, dangerous) that means if you created a table and don't want
it used, he won't. Sounds like a perfect way to opt out.

Assuming the worst isn't good for anyone on RGP, or anyone involved with
this project. Give the guy a chance, take some time to think it out, and if
you still don't want him using your tables, opt out. Don't take his $$ and
don't give people who might never find these tables a chance to play them.

--
http://www.myhomegameroom.com


"Mrhide" <mrhide@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125111030.090380.82770@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Here's a post from David Foley (who tried to (c) the MAME name (see
> story at
> http://aarongiles.com/weblog/archives/2005/03/mame_trad...)
>
>
Quote:

> Let me clarify what we have done, what we are doing, and what we are
> not doing.
>
> 1) We are building a multi-game pinball machine called Pinball Legends.
> Similar in style to our Arcade Legends and UltraCade machines.
>
> 2) We have licensed the Visual Pinball engine from Randy Davis to use
> as a basis for our product.
>
> 3) We are in the process of licensing other code libraries and engines
> for this product as well.
>
> 4) We have offered VP table & script authors a royalty to use the work
> that they have already done.
>
> 5) We have absolutely no intention of doing anything but bringing to
> market a commerical product based on the great body of work that
> already exists, and combine it with the rights to many of the classic
> pinball tables that we have secured.
>
> 6) Any rumors of us trying to change what is going on in the community
> is just bad rumors. In fact, we will be offering our custom designed
> I/O card with motion sensor and digital plunger as stand alone items so
> that people that wish to build a desktop pinball controller to play
> with Visual Pinball will have the benefit of all of the inputs for
> Visual Pinball, motion input to shake the table, and a real plunger
> encoded to correspond with the plunger. We even intend on giving our
> code modifications that we have been doing to Visual Pinball back to
> Randy to be released into the community so that everyone who has
> invested time and effort in the Visual Pinball platform will benefit
> from the work that we are doing to the engine.
>
> If you have questions or concerns feel free to contact me directly at
> david.foley@ultracade.com
>
> [end quote]
>
>
> You can get the tables FOR FREE at www.vpforums.com/vptables
> Please voice your opinion and don't let this guy's greed poison a great
> thing.
> http://www.vpforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadi...
>
> Thanks
> Phil
> http://mrhide.pinnesota.org
> (Table author / picture provider)
>
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 5:19:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

He has the license from Williams ... so yes. They will be there
Nothing unique and new in there. it's all about nostalgia.
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 7:19:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug, Mrhide wrote:
> Here's the thing Mike:
>
> I took thousands of pictures to help the project and seeing greedy
> people just come and expect to sell it is just plain wrong. I am really
> feeling bad about this

How did you copyright your work? If you didn't protect it from uses you
don't like, then that's your own fault. If you did, then don't let them
use your work. It's really that simple.

This happens in the open source software world all the time. It's nothing
new.


--Donnie

--
Donnie Barnes http://www.donniebarnes.com 879. V.
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 7:39:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug, MacMan wrote:
> Bullsh*t! If you knew how to code anything you wouldn't need to keep
> STEALING other people's work.

Come on, this is what open source is all about. Do you *really* think the
world is a better place if we have to keep re-inventing the wheel every
time someone wants to do something in software? All that does is lead to
more problems for consumers (fewer standards, less interoperability, more
monopolies).


--Donnie

--
Donnie Barnes http://www.donniebarnes.com 879. V.
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 7:54:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

read the thread again ... more info is coming out that already answered
your question
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 9:04:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I see this as a good thing for pinball since newbies will be able to
walk up to a machine and play many different titles on one cabinet. You
want to play MM, AFM, TAF, how about Barb Wire or Tee'd Off? Perhaps
after that they will want to play the real thing. Also knowing the kind
of great work that Ultracade does and their stated commitment to the VP
community this can only be a good thing. I can't wait to play one. I
might even buy one to add to my collection.

On 2005-08-27 07:36:36 -0700, "John Wart, jr" <johnwartjr@johnwartjr.com> said:

> Maybe I'm naive here, but could this potentially be a *good* thing for pinball?
>
> Perhaps if Mr. Foley *licensed* all the ROMS/tables from Wayne or Gtb
> LLC and made a product that made people want to play pinball?
>
> He has said he will pay table creators to use their work, right? I
> would assume (I know, dangerous) that means if you created a table and
> don't want it used, he won't. Sounds like a perfect way to opt out.
>
> Assuming the worst isn't good for anyone on RGP, or anyone involved
> with this project. Give the guy a chance, take some time to think it
> out, and if you still don't want him using your tables, opt out. Don't
> take his $$ and don't give people who might never find these tables a
> chance to play them.


--
Pins - M*M - M*B - A*FM - R*FM - ST*TNG - L*OTR - R*F

Vids - D*nkey Kong

Past Pins - H*S#1 - T*Z - H*S #2 - C*C - S*C - C*V - W*H20
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 10:14:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug, Kevin L'Heureux wrote:
> I see this as a good thing for pinball since newbies will be able to
> walk up to a machine and play many different titles on one cabinet. You
> want to play MM, AFM, TAF, how about Barb Wire or Tee'd Off? Perhaps
> after that they will want to play the real thing. Also knowing the kind
> of great work that Ultracade does and their stated commitment to the VP
> community this can only be a good thing. I can't wait to play one. I
> might even buy one to add to my collection.

Well, it isn't likely they'll get a license to put Williams titles in their
cabinet, so many of those probably won't be there. That doesn't mean they
won't have some good games to play, and it's definitely easier to create
your own VP table than your own *real* table, so they'll probably have a
lot of unique stuff, too.


--Donnie

--
Donnie Barnes http://www.donniebarnes.com 879. V.
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 12:13:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug, Cliffy wrote:
> Thanks for your story, Donnie. I too tried to force Linux onto unwilling
> hardware back then :) 
> I agree this all could be a good thing. My point is that it was
> unexpected and a bit of a shock :) 

Understood. If nothing else it had *better* make folks realize that the
license under which you contribute your work to a project like this should
jive with what you had in mind for your work.

Anything good enough to get fairly popular, even for free, will eventually
have a commercial audience, too. :-)


--Donnie

--
Donnie Barnes http://www.donniebarnes.com 879. V.
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 3:41:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I doubt Williams will let them use Williams except maybe on the game
display.
If we want to make a past Williams Game it must be a TPF game or a
Bally.
Bally=Bally
Williams = TPF or Bally
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 1:02:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

sales@mrpinball.com.au wrote:
> I doubt Williams will let them use Williams except maybe on the game
> display.
> If we want to make a past Williams Game it must be a TPF game or a
> Bally.
> Bally=Bally
> Williams = TPF or Bally

Mr Foley said this on the VP board:

"In answer to the table rights, the rights to the parts and physical
tables were licensed to the folks in Australia, and the digital rights
were secured by our manufacturing partner. We have a long standing
relationship with many of the rights holders and have been licensing
video game and other IP rights for decades now. We have the exclusive
rights to the digital versions of all Williams tables for the platform.
We also have rights to tables from Bally and Capcom. We are in the
midst of negotiating rights from several other manufacturers."

Looks to me like Wayne doesn't really own what he says he does, or
Foley is lying. Which is it? I believe Foley, he has a real company
and sells real product.
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 3:08:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Your the guys on "Wayne Avenue, San Jose"?

Ping

PinFan1983 wrote:
> sales@mrpinball.com.au wrote:
> > I doubt Williams will let them use Williams except maybe on the game
> > display.
> > If we want to make a past Williams Game it must be a TPF game or a
> > Bally.
> > Bally=Bally
> > Williams = TPF or Bally
>
> Mr Foley said this on the VP board:
>
> "In answer to the table rights, the rights to the parts and physical
> tables were licensed to the folks in Australia, and the digital rights
> were secured by our manufacturing partner. We have a long standing
> relationship with many of the rights holders and have been licensing
> video game and other IP rights for decades now. We have the exclusive
> rights to the digital versions of all Williams tables for the platform.
> We also have rights to tables from Bally and Capcom. We are in the
> midst of negotiating rights from several other manufacturers."
>
> Looks to me like Wayne doesn't really own what he says he does, or
> Foley is lying. Which is it? I believe Foley, he has a real company
> and sells real product.
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 5:23:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

On Sun, 28 Aug, sales@mrpinball.com.au wrote:
> I doubt Williams will let them use Williams except maybe on the game
> display.
> If we want to make a past Williams Game it must be a TPF game or a
> Bally.
> Bally=Bally
> Williams = TPF or Bally

You're actually making a pinball machine, though. This is a video game.
Note that they've licensed their name to be used on the
Defender/Stargate/etc remakes...


--Donnie

--
Donnie Barnes http://www.donniebarnes.com 879. V.
!