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Can't get Temp to go down!

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November 22, 2004 4:41:47 PM

My configuration:

P160 ANTEC case
120mm SmartCool ANTEC Case Fan X 2 (1 input front, 1 output back)
550W True Power ANTEC power supply
P5AD2 Premimun ASUS M/B
3.6Ghz Intel 560
2 x DDR2 667 Corsair PC5400 (currently 1GB)
EAX 800XT ASUS video card
Raptor WD740GD 74GB Serial ATA 10,000RPM Hard Drive w/8MB Buffer X 2

Using the stock CPU fan and heatsink with the factory thermal pad, I was having 50c idle temp and 70c max load temp. I thought this was too high and started reading the forums here about temp issues. Everyone keeps saying to change to Artic Silver 5, which I did today. Now I have idle temp of 54c and max load of 75c. It went up!!!! It's scaring me to death. I cannot figure out if I am doing something wrong or not. I have taken the heatsink off twice now and reapplied and both times the artic 5 was spread very nicely, so I do not believe I am applying it wrong. I don't really want to go to watercooling but I am beginning to feel I will have no choice. Please give me some suggestions, I need to get this solved for piece of mind. I do not wish to see my new rig melt down.

I know now after reading that I should have gone with AMD because of the 560 heat issues, but, hindsight is 20/20 so I am stuck for now.

GTFouts

More about : temp

November 22, 2004 4:50:37 PM

1) Have you read the <A HREF="http://www.arcticsilver.com/as5.htm" target="_new">instructions for AS5</A>?
Quote:
Due to the unique shape and sizes of the particles in Arctic Silver 5's conductive matrix, <b>it will take a up to 200 hours and several thermal cycles to achieve maximum particle to particle thermal conduction</b> and for the heatsink to CPU interface to reach maximum conductivity. (This period will be longer in a system without a fan on the heatsink or with a low speed fan on the heatsink.) On systems measuring actual internal core temperatures via the CPU's internal diode, <b>the measured temperature will often drop 2C to 5C over this "break-in" period</b>. This break-in will occur during the normal use of the computer as long as the computer is turned off from time to time and the interface is allowed to cool to room temperature. Once the break-in is complete, the computer can be left on if desired.

(Bold is my emphasis.)

2) Have you considered just getting a better heatsink than the stock one that Intel provides? I doubt that you'll need watercooling, but you'll likely benefit from investing in top-end air-cooling.

<pre><b><font color=red>"Build a man a fire and he's warm for the rest of the evening.
Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." - Steve Taylor</font color=red></b></pre><p>
November 22, 2004 4:56:35 PM

You have an awesome system, awsomely hot! *kidding, not really tho.

It could be that you used to thick a layer of Artic Silver, or heat sink is a little off center.

Anyway, I think as long as CPU temp is under 80c you wont fry it.
The stock cooler is a very good quality one, just loud.

My 3200 Prescott with 3d Cooler Pro runs between 55c and 65c

<font color=red><pre>\\//__________________________________
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre><p></font color=red>
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November 22, 2004 5:26:46 PM

I read an article here at Toms where they tested the stock fan/heatsink against aftermarket ones and the conclusion was that the stock ones were just as good if not better than the others. If you know of better fans then please give me a direction to go and I will research it most definetly.

I didn't know about the 200 hours on the artic, do now tho...I will give it a little time.

Yes the heatsink is positioned properly, would be hard to mis-position it the way its designed IMHO. Besides, I am very careful with all that.

GTFouts
November 22, 2004 5:49:29 PM

Quote:
I read an article here at Toms where they tested the stock fan/heatsink against aftermarket ones and the conclusion was that the stock ones were just as good if not better than the others.

I haven't read that article, but I find it difficult to believe that any Intel stock cooler is as good as or better than a <A HREF="http://www.thermalright.com/a_page/main_product_xp120_7..." target="_new">Thermalright XP-120</A> with a 120mm fan. Call me crazy, but it's hard to imagine any stock heatsink beating this thing. :) 

I don't know if that puppy will fit in your system mind you, but <A HREF="http://www.thermalright.com" target="_new">Thermalright</A> is always a good place to start for top-end air cooling. There are others to look for, but I tend to look there first. Enjoy.

<pre><b><font color=red>"Build a man a fire and he's warm for the rest of the evening.
Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." - Steve Taylor</font color=red></b></pre><p>
November 22, 2004 5:52:36 PM

Oh, and my experience has been that Intel's thermal interface material is actually really good ... so long as you're mounting their stock heatsink and don't plan on ever unmounting it. There's usually no need to strip it and go with Arctic Silver. But live and learn, right? :) 

<pre><b><font color=red>"Build a man a fire and he's warm for the rest of the evening.
Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." - Steve Taylor</font color=red></b></pre><p>
November 22, 2004 6:04:49 PM

Anyone who uses the Intel cooler in a socket 775 system should stick to it. There is no really persuasive argument for buying a different cooler, apart from looks. And even in that respect there are few differences between the coolers.

Someone who does not yet have a cooler and is looking for a cost-effective one should pick up the EKL model or the small one from Coolermaster. Anyone who wants to spend a little more money has the choice of the remaining 3 coolers, which cost the same and offer similar performance.

<A HREF="http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20041103/cooler-08.html" target="_new"> Benchmarks </A>


<font color=red><pre>\\//__________________________________
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre><p></font color=red>
November 22, 2004 6:15:09 PM

http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20041103/index.html

Finally found that article...was beginning to think I had imagined it...geesh.

OK, so I looked at the Thermalright XP-120. WOW, what a monster! I bet that keeps things very cool indeed. Not sure if it will fit, going to have to do some measuring and see. If it won't fit, then I was thinking about the Zalman CNPS 7000B, only I am not sure if I should use the solid copper model or the copper/aluminum model.

I am assuming that whatever I do go with I should keep using the artic 5?

GTFouts
November 22, 2004 6:18:29 PM

I linked the benchmarks above your post, but it shows the stock cooler is the best of those 5 reviewed.

Unless you go to water cooling or something like it, your not going to lower temp much more than stock cooler.

<font color=red><pre>\\//__________________________________
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre><p></font color=red>
November 22, 2004 6:24:18 PM

Hmmmm...that article does keep haunting me when I think of spending yet more money on this system. I have alot of faith in TH. I just do not understand why I have such a temp issue with this setup when others have a 10 to 15 degree better difference than I do.

GTFouts
November 22, 2004 7:06:39 PM

Quote:
There is no really persuasive argument for buying a different cooler, apart from looks. And even in that respect there are few differences between the coolers.

Are you trying to be argumentative, or are you that ignorant? After reading THG's 'review' (and I'm forced to use that term very loosely in this case ... come on THG, you can do better) I have to laugh. Those heatsinks all suck. There are so many better ones out there that they could have tested.

A measurement of thermal resistance of the Thermalright XP-120 done at <A HREF="http://www.overclockers.com/articles1043" target="_new">Overclockers.com</A> done with various 120mm fans puts its resistance at 0.28 with a quiet fan. (And at 0.16 with a loud one.) Do you see where in THG's article Intel wins with only 0.37? Now put the XP-120's 0.16 in that chart.

I hate to say it, but THG really f'ed up that review. They chose some really crappy heatsinks to compare. There are plenty of high-end coolers that will literally blow Intel's cooler away.

<pre><b><font color=red>"Build a man a fire and he's warm for the rest of the evening.
Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." - Steve Taylor</font color=red></b></pre><p>
November 22, 2004 7:15:52 PM

Quote:
OK, so I looked at the Thermalright XP-120. WOW, what a monster! I bet that keeps things very cool indeed. Not sure if it will fit, going to have to do some measuring and see.

It stands off pretty high from the base before it sweeps out, so it shouldn't be much of a problem for most. It should be over your DIMMs and such. :)  I'm actually going to have to do some measurements myself though, as I may use that one with a very low RPM fan to lower my PC's noise. I'm a little worried about my northbridge's heatsink because it's passive, so it's big.

Quote:
I am assuming that whatever I do go with I should keep using the artic 5?

You might as well. :)  There's probably not much better, and you've already bought it.

Quote:
Hmmmm...that article does keep haunting me when I think of spending yet more money on this system.

A good air cooler is expensive, but then, it's much better than the stock cooler and much cheaper (and less scary) than watercooling. :) 

Quote:
I just do not understand why I have such a temp issue with this setup when others have a 10 to 15 degree better difference than I do.

There could be any number of reasons, but I'd guess that most likely either:
1) Your CPU just happens to run at the hot-end of Intel's validation limits where as other people's run at the cool end.
2) Your ambient temperatures are higher.

<pre><b><font color=red>"Build a man a fire and he's warm for the rest of the evening.
Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." - Steve Taylor</font color=red></b></pre><p>
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November 22, 2004 10:27:07 PM

I seriously doubt the AS layer is too thick. Do you have any idea how much clip pressure is applied? Enough to smash a 2" layer of AS down to less than the thickness of bible paper.

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November 22, 2004 11:55:05 PM

That chip needs a BTX form case. You might be able to get away with putting a side mount fan just in front of and below the chip. What is the room temp like? What temp is your mobo at?
November 23, 2004 10:10:07 AM

I keep the house right around 70F. The ambient temp is not an issue here. I even have the side of the case off for now just to see if there is a difference, not much of one tho but a tad better. Not enough for me to feel comfortable yet.

The MB temp hangs right around 40c. Now all the temps I am talking about are all comming from the ASUS Probe prg that came with the MB, so I am assuming they are reading the correct values. I know alot of people say that there are times when the monitor prgs dont display the correct temp, but I have no choice but to believe that ASUS is reading it properly. One would hope so anyway.

As far as the case goes, I really don't want to buy another unless everything else fails. That may not be the correct route but this case cost me a pretty penny and to get another decent case will cost yet another bundle, then I will have a brand new case which will be nothing more than a worthless pile of aluminum sitting in the corner. Like he said earlier in this post...live and learn...sigh.

GTFouts
November 23, 2004 12:11:03 PM

If taking the side panel off of your case makes a difference, that means that your air flow isn't optimal. So here are some other things to try:

If your power supply has any 'fan only' leads, make sure that you <i>don't</i> hook your fans up to these. Run your fans from the regular power leads.

Since the Antec P160 case is more or less just an aluminum version of their Sonata, then maybe the same trick will work with it. Leaving off any floppy bay panels that you can might help the intake airflow. Also, if the front fan is actually in the middle of the case like the Sonata then try mounting the front fan by its bottom two holes to the top two mount holes with screws. (Thus moving the fan up by almost 120mm.)

And if that doesn't work then try higher CFM fans. The Antec's SmartCool fans are nice for quiet rigs, but not the best of solutions for hot rigs. Sometimes you just have to force higher RPMs. Try either fixed-rate high RPM fans, or I think Antec and Enermax both make manually adjustable 120mm fans that you could try.

Or, if you want to try other funky devices you can add a 5.25 bay fan device such as <A HREF="http://www.startech.com/ststore/ItemDetail.cfm?ProductI..." target="_new">this</A>. Or PCI slot devices such as <A HREF="http://www.startech.com/ststore/ItemDetail.cfm?ProductI..." target="_new">this</A> or <A HREF="http://www.startech.com/ststore/ItemDetail.cfm?ProductI..." target="_new">this</A>.

I can't promise that any of these will fix your problems, but they're at least options that might help.

<pre><b><font color=red>"Build a man a fire and he's warm for the rest of the evening.
Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." - Steve Taylor</font color=red></b></pre><p>
November 23, 2004 9:57:59 PM

Sorta dumb question heh, have you doublechecked the 4 legs on the HS? You have to push down pretty hard till they click before you turn them to lock. I had one leg that was almost right, but even being a tiny bit off was enough to give me the same temps you are getting now, if not hotter. I switched to a gigabyte rocket cooler mainly for noise reduction, but a nice side benefit is with the mounting kit I don't have to mess around with any stupid leg lock scheme.
November 23, 2004 10:08:37 PM

40c is too high for a mobo. You have an irrigation problem. To prove it, try using a regular portable fan to blow air at the open side of your case. If this doesn't make your temps go down by 10c, your probe temps a wrong.
November 23, 2004 10:36:00 PM

? 40C seems about right for a mb not in a BTX case with a Prescott on it. My IS7 is 35C right now.

Abit IS7 - 3.0C @ 3.6ghz - Mushkin PC4000 (2 X 512) - Sapphire 9800Pro - TT 420 watt Pure Power
Samsung 120gb ATA-100 - Maxtor 40gb ATA - 100
Sony DRU-510A - Yellowtail Merlot
November 23, 2004 11:01:53 PM

35c is fine with an fsb of 240, at 200, it is not good. The v-core supply cct is a major heat source, and is affected by fsb speed. My concern with such a mobo temp is the board's life expectancy. Great way to kill a capacitor.
November 24, 2004 10:18:35 AM

Well, I have become so frustrated with this temp issue, and a little scared also, that I decided to buy the XP-120 CPU heatsink which I should get today. I am thinking of changing out the fans to constant speed fans also. I plugged the rear fan into a regular power connector instead of the fan only connector from the PS and it sped up some, so thats good, but it did no difference, so I tried something just to see what would happen. Being that I have the side off of the case, I turned the rear fan around so it blows into the case right across the top of the CPU trying to add a little more fresh air, but, it didnt make a difference. Actually it seemed to slow down the CPU fan during idle time from 3800rpm to 2200rpm. Maybe thats a good sign being that the CPU fan doesnt need to work so hard, tho I am not sure.

I am beginning to feel that the case is not at all what I thought it was supposed to be. Perhaps I do need a serious cooling case because of the Prescott's heat output. If I do this, sigh, yet more money but I need to protect this investment, then I need to go with a really SERIOUS cooler case. Don't care about the window or light stuff, and I dont think my walls do either...:)  Either that or just swallow my fear and go with watercooling. Some suggestions on a proper case would be appreciated, one that has the room for this XP-120. I bought it, so I might as well use it until water becomes the only option. Perhaps a case that is built for water yet has excellent air cooling capabilities also, if one like that even exists. I have read and read the case forum and get a bit overwhelmed. There are so many cases that offer so much that it is very hard to decide without some input from those who have had trials and tribulations with them. I guess I will go read somemore.

As far as the fan legs go, maybe I am doing it wrong and thats the whole issue, you tell me. I push them down until they click once, only the heatsink is not tight against the CPU. So then I push them down as far as I can, doing my best to keep the HS flat and straight across the CPU, because if you just push them down unevenly then the HS looks angled from the side, so I use the legs to straighten it out. The strange thing is that when I have the HS level across the CPU from both side views and down as tight as I can get it, the feet are not evenly spaced off of the MB. Just doesnt seem proper. But, like I said before, I have taken it off a few times thinking I did it wrong only to find that the Artic 5 was spread nicely and evenly and thinly. (is that even a word?)

GTFouts
November 24, 2004 11:13:13 AM

OK, I have this little 8" floor fan and set it next to the open case blowing in. It dropped my MB temp down to 32c at idle and 34c full load. But it did nothing for the CPU temp. Under full load it stays at 76-77c then drops down to 55-56c at idle. Don't have the new HS yet but I will soon. If that drops my CPU down to decent levels then it will verify that this case is not the one for a prescott, tho I think I have done that already. SO....it would seem that a decent cooling case will be comming. Some suggestions would be very helpful. Please take into consideration that I don't want to buy a third case..:)  I am not worried about what the case costs, I am more interested in the cooling capabilities, and they need to be MAX! If I need more and better fans then I will buy them, I just don't want to modify the case to add them is all.

You guys have been so helpful. I can't even begin to express my appreciation for all the help.

GTFouts
November 24, 2004 2:43:32 PM

I read your story and damn! I tought I would never buy a Prescott and you comfort me in my decision to do so!

I hope you will find some kind of solution to the heat issue... If you underclock or overclock your CPU, do you see a difference? Ususally, a bad contact between HSF and CPU would result in high CPU temperature even at low CPU speed.

You might try the "undervolt" trick. Set your vCore a bit lower than the default value and see if your PC stay stable, this may cool your CPU a bit, but if your PC crash, this would not help!

Good Luck!

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November 24, 2004 10:22:02 PM

Since the case temp droped, but the chip temp didn't, it is probably that your hsf is not making good contact. Not to worry, your new hsf comes with a mounting bracket that should set you up. Before you start the changeover, watch the video they have on thier website on installing that monster.
November 24, 2004 11:01:14 PM

An easy way to increase the airflow directly to the CPU is to mount a fan to the side panel of your case. I used a fan that came out of an old Compaq, so you dont need to spend much on a fan. The next thing you need is a piece of clear plastic or ruber hose. It shoud be aprox the same size as the fan. I found a clear piece of rubber hose that was just big enough to fit over the fan bracket. I picked the hose up at an auto parts store. The hose simply runs from the side panel to aprox 2-3 inches short of the CPU heatsink. This little addition took about 45 mins and less than $15.00. It dropped my temps an average of about 2-4 degrees. That may not be a huge difference, but it counts. Hope this helps.
November 25, 2004 3:28:31 AM

Well, I just finished installing the Thermalright XP-120 HS on the CPU. WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!! WHEW!! I am alot happier and more relaxed now. I would like to personally thank slvr_phoenix for that suggestion.

COVER ON
MB - 37 CPU - 68 MAX'd
MB - 37 CPU - 56 Idle

COVER OFF
MB - 36 CPU - 63 MAX'd
MB - 35 CPU - 51 Idle

COVER OFF with 8" floor fan blowing into case
MB - 31 CPU - 59 MAX'd
MB - 31 CPU - 47 Idle

Those temps are totally acceptable to me, tho it does prove that the standard ANTEC P-160 case is definetly not for Prescott use. Since I cant send the case back anymore, I may play with cutting holes into the side and adding a couple 120mm fans. Should work ok and if I get good quiet Panaflo fans, the noise factor should be at a minimum. I used a Panaflo 120mm with the XP-120 and the noise of the PC running with the case open is less than half of what it was with the Intel factory fan already. Alot quieter. As a matter of fact, I believe the noise I do hear is the Antec fans I have and not the Panaflo.

Again, Thankyou ALL for you suggestions and help. I can sleep better now that the temps are down and a meltdown is not in the picture anymore!!! WOOO WOOOOOOOO!!

GTFouts
November 25, 2004 6:05:56 AM

One last thing =) The suggestion to lower CPU voltage is really good for Prescotts. The lowest volt on my AA8 Duramax is 1.38 and on the other board I tried it was 1.32. On the AA8 I idle about 40-43C and get up to 55-58C under load. On the lower volt board the temps were about 35C/50C. So running at the lowest stable voltage can help.

Other thing I noticed is that the break in on AS5 is for real hehe. It took a few days, but when that stuff finally settles in you get a decent drop too. Glad to hear you got some peace of mind with the new cooler, and it should get better from here =)
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