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CPU problem?

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Last response: in CPUs
May 9, 2005 8:29:09 PM

Hey everyone. I have two questions/problems that I hope someone can help me with. The first is my system itself. When I bought my computer I was told the FSB speed was 800. However, recently I have been looking into the bios and inside the computer and I think it may actually be only 400.
I downloaded the Intel Processor Identification application and ran it. Below are the relevant results from that.

Expected Processor Frequency- the highest speed at which the processor was manufactures to operate: 2.2 GHz

Reported Processor Frequency- the speed at which the processor is running: 2.2 GHz

Expected System Bus- the highest frequency at which the system bus on the processor was manufactured to operate: 400 MHz

Reported System Bus- the actual system bus speed at which the processor is currently operating: 400 MHz

Are FSB and system bus the same thing?

So I am guessing that the sytem that I thought I was buying (800 Mhz FSB) and the one that I actually got are different?
Aside from this fact though, is this the reason why things were fine for several months and now all of a sudden I am having problems? To elaborate on my problem, my system is hanging a lot and varies a lot in the time taken to boot up . One time it could be normal and the next time it could take up to 2 minutes, although the longer times are happening more frequently. As well, it doesn't multitask as well anymore. A lot of times if I close one program, it hangs a lot and kind of superimposes over another open program and I have to go into task manager and end the application or process to close it. Also when the program finally ends, the program name hangs in the task bar for 5-10 seconds and then disappears.

Here are the specs on my computer that I got from the bios and by taking the case off:

Motherboard- Intel D865 Perl
CPU- P4 2.2 Ghz
System Bus Speed- 400 Mhz
System Memory Speed- 266 Mhz
RAM- 512 Mb DDR 333. The memory mode is single channel and is operating in single channel dynamic paging mode. It is in one 512 Mb stick and occupies one slot with three empty ones. The slots are designated as channel A slot 0, channel A slot 1, channel B slot 0, and channel B slot1
Bios- RL86510A.86A.0056.P07
Hard Drive- Samsung 160Gb
Processor Zone temperature- 34'C/95'F
System Zone 1 temperature -28'C/82'F
System Zone 2 temperature -30'C/86'F
Processor Fan Speed 3655 RPM

You probably don't need all this, but if it helps....Appreciate any help you can give me.

More about : cpu problem

May 9, 2005 8:53:12 PM

Quote:
Are FSB and system bus the same thing?

No. FSB is the bus between the memory controller and the CPU. System bus usually refers to the bus that connects to the memory modules and other items via I/O bus.

When an application freezes, it is most likely a problem with memory or CPU overheating, check your fan to see if it is working properly. Problems can also be caused by corruption to the hard drive. If the program crashes, or your computer turns off, your best bet is to point at the power supply.

To test for corrupted hard drive and to narrow the problem as hardware specific:
-boot windows from a new hard drive and run the same application.
If it runs fine, you have a hardware problem.
If the application still freezes, you have a hardware problem: either CPU overheating, or memory.

You can test your memory using Memtest86.
Your CPU temperatures can be monitored using MBM5.

My guess is that you have a memory problem. Running Memtest86 should clear up this question.

<font color=green>*****
"Memory with lifetime warranty? So, whose lifetime is that?"
<A HREF="http://www.brentcrowley.com/" target="_new">homepage</A>
<font color=red>AIM BrentUnitedMem
May 10, 2005 3:08:13 AM

I tried running memtest86 from both the floppy and cd but both times it froze up at task 3 and wouldn't respond to any commands. I then ran Microsoft Windows Memory Diagnostic and everything came up error free. I will check the CPU temperatures next. Also, is there an application you can use to test how your power supply is running?
I forgot to mention before that I have been getting warnings about virtual memory when sevearl applications are running. I don't know if this may indicate something?
Thanks for the help.
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May 10, 2005 6:12:44 AM

Use MBM5 to log the voltages for your Power supply.

Virtual memory is managed by the operating system, and really has little to nothing to do with your hardware setup.

What memory brand are you using?
If no label on the memory, are there numbers on the chips?

I still susupect the memory... See if you can test your setup with another memory module- maybe you can borrow one?

Also, what OS are you using?

<font color=green>*****
"Memory with lifetime warranty? So, whose lifetime is that?"
<A HREF="http://www.brentcrowley.com/" target="_new">homepage</A>
<font color=red>AIM BrentUnitedMem
a b à CPUs
May 10, 2005 6:29:41 AM

First of all, Intel IS using the FSB for the System Bus report. Second Intel never made an 800 bus P4 2.2GHz. Third, the P4 2.2 wasn't even a production item with 800 bus was introduced. What you have is an extremely old CPU, it was introduced 3 or 4 years ago, and has a bus speed that wasn't even fast back then, the 533 bus was current back then, 400 bus was a leftover for upgrades.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
May 10, 2005 8:51:43 AM

Two things;

First, as crashman pointed out, your cpu is supposed to run at a 400 MHz FSB. Your motherboard, however, is most likely capable of running 800 MHz FSB chips, which is probably how they fooled you. Thats an old dog of a cpu with a fairly good motherboard you have there.. strange mix. Did you buy this new as a system ?

As for the crashing.. my intial thoughts where a virus or dying harddisk. memory errors usually result in spontaneous reboots, not long delays. But memtest86 hanging is odd, especially when the MS tool works fine ? Not quite sure you have a memory problem, but as someone else pointed out, try another memory stick, or try changing memory timings or voltage in the BIOS.

I would still scan for virusses or spyware though. Get AVG antivirus and I also recommend Microsoft Antispyware. Not often I recommend a MS product, but this one is very good.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
May 10, 2005 3:15:04 PM

When I was configuring MBM there were two choices for my mobo (D865PERL), one gave me a reading for the cpu and case and the other gave me a reading for my cpu, case and chipset so this is the one I went with. The results are as follows:
CPU - 34'C
Case - 32'C
Chipset - 32'C
For the power supply I am not sure what is relevant but here are all results
Core 0 - 1.49V
CPU/IO - 1.42V
+3.3 - 3.29V
+5.00 - 5.23V
+12.00 - 12.29V
-5.00 and - 12.00 are both 0.00V
According to the graphs these look alright?

I am using Kingston Ram (333) 512Mb and am using Windows Xp Pro.
I am not sure when I can test another RAM module. I may buy some yet.
Another point I forgot to mention was that my hard drive sometime makes a strange noise when it is booting. It is a mechanical sound and to use an old analogy, sounds similar to the way old lp's used to play (the arm slides over and drops the lp). It sounds like a platter is dropping or something, if that makes sense. it is a quick click and then a drop. I have checked some places on the Internet which said it could be a minor problem and some hard drives are just noisy. I was considering getting a new hard drive anyway. These problems might be some extra incentive. Thanks for the help
May 10, 2005 3:20:54 PM

Yes, this was bought as a new system and yes I think I may have been fooled. I think a call to the store may be in order but anyways...I have Mcafee Internet Security and scan on a regular basis. My hard drive is making strange sounds periodically as I mentioned in my previous post, but I just thought it was noisy. My hard drive is a Samsung 160Gb 7200RPM.
May 10, 2005 6:08:32 PM

A damaged hard drive can cause problems too.

If you suspect your hard drive, the best way to test is to switch the drive. It's always a good idea to have an extra drive lying around around or in your computer for two reasons:
A) You can keep the second drive as a storage medium or to keep program files on it during bootup.
B) In your case, you'd be able to troubleshoot your current drive by replacing it with one that works. If freezing persists, you will know the problem exists elsewhere.

Unfortunately, some troubleshooting requires additional hardware to test.

What is strange in your case is that Memtest86 wont complete. As you know, Memtest86 runs prior to booting from the hard drive. This would point to a problem with the memory, power supply or CPU overheating.

Also, I find it strange that you get a 0-volt reading for your -5 and -12 volt lines. Maybe MSM5 is not configured correctly. Read through the help files in MBM5 to make sure the program is setup correctly.

One other thing I would try...
Clear your CMOS settings. You might be running settings that are too tight for your system which may be causing crashing.
Look in your motherboard manual on how to clear the CMOS settings.



<font color=green>*****
"Memory with lifetime warranty? So, whose lifetime is that?"
<A HREF="http://www.brentcrowley.com/" target="_new">homepage</A>
<font color=red>AIM BrentUnitedMem
May 10, 2005 6:18:09 PM

As Crashman pointed out you have an old CPU which is probably folding under it's current load.

Since memtest86 is freezing, that would most likely eliminate the hard drive as the primary issue. But it could also be a combination of more than one problem; you do hear gremlins running around in your hard drive :p 

<font color=green>*****
"Memory with lifetime warranty? So, whose lifetime is that?"
<A HREF="http://www.brentcrowley.com/" target="_new">homepage</A>
<font color=red>AIM BrentUnitedMem
May 10, 2005 6:27:41 PM

I'll try some of things you mentioned and see what happens. Do the temperatures for the cpu look ok? Is there a maximum temperature for p4's? Thanks
May 10, 2005 6:45:30 PM

MBM5 can log temperatures for you. You need to log them while you are running your applications.

You aren't trying to play DOOM3 are you? hehe :p 

Anyway, you should still be able to run most applications fine with your current setup; I have an 800MHz CPU that runs WINXP, and current office software + accounting applications with no crashes.

<font color=green>*****
"Memory with lifetime warranty? So, whose lifetime is that?"
<A HREF="http://www.brentcrowley.com/" target="_new">homepage</A>
<font color=red>AIM BrentUnitedMem
May 10, 2005 7:10:05 PM

Ha. No, I am not much of a gamer. However, I do do a lot of video editing/conversion, photo vcd's, convert vhs to dvd etc. that have high stream rates and such.

i have been monitoring the temps while running applications and they range from 35-40'C.

I can run pretty much all of my apps, it is just the darn delays and freezes and occasional lockups that get annoying.
Thanks for all your help.
May 10, 2005 7:43:35 PM

Quote:
I can run pretty much all of my apps, it is just the darn delays and freezes and occasional lockups that get annoying.

My instincts say to watch your power supply. When things get undervolted (RAM, hard drive) they act funny. So if you can, monitor your voltages over a period of time (hopefully until a lockup) and then see if anything 3.3v, 5v, or 12v dip below spec in tandem with the weirdness.

<pre><font color=purple><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=purple></pre><p>@ 187K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
May 10, 2005 11:49:31 PM

Hey Guys,
I ran a hard drive diagnostic and from the report saw no errors and the status for the different areas being ok. I ran spybot and did find a couple of cookie entries and removed them.

I did some more looking inside and the power supply is a 350W Pentium 4 power supply. I don't see a specific company on it, but the case is a Vision Pentium 4 ATX case so I assume the power supply came with the case?

I also wanted to check my CPU to get some numbers to look for some info. After I removed the clips and went to remove the heatsink, I found a lot of resistance. I continued with even pressure not forcing it and the heatsink came out with the processor stuck to it. The processor came right out of the socket and stayed attached to the heatsink. I know about the theremal interface material Intel provides to go between the heatsink and processor, but this substance was quite "gummy" and it seems the processor was stuck to the heatsink. I don't know if this is normal, I can't see how it would be, but I was wondering if this could be some indicator to my processor overheating at one point and somehow "melting" the substance and sticking. I took a picture of it in case it could help. If you would like to see it and think it may help just let me know. Thanks
May 11, 2005 1:59:16 PM

Intel's thermal interface material is a phase change substance that more or less is a solid that melts when it gets hot. AMD prefers the same stuff because it's nice and clean to pre-attach it to the stock HSF and makes installation easy as hell. The downside is that on occasion some people have reported your problem, that it kind of epoxies the CPU to the HS. :o  Of course sometimes the same thing happens with thermal pastes when they dry up. (Especially stuff like Arctic Silver that 'sets'.)

At least this is what I've read and heard from other people. I've never run into it myself.

But they say that usually if you're careful with a good knife you can widge it between the HS and the CPU and pry them apart. Some people report it working even better if you drop the stuck components into your freezer first. Just be careful not to use force between the CPU's PCB and the HS to pull them apart, as there's a small possibility that the CPU's protective cover can come unglued instead of the CPU-to-HS bond breaking. That's why it's better to pry them apart with a knife between the cover and the HS.

So I've heard anyway.

As for your power supply, it sounds like a rebadged generic PoS. It probably did come with the case. It'd be my first suspect. All components are powered by it. It's like building a house. Give it a bad foundation and god only knows what will go wrong over time. So were it me, I'd probably replace it with a good dependable PSU just on principle alone, and if problems still continued I'd know that at least it isn't my power supply. **ROFL**. But of course that's just my advice. It can be expensive to replace components, so maybe you'll want more proof of the actual culprit first and replace that only.

<pre><font color=purple><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=purple></pre><p>@ 187K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
May 11, 2005 2:02:15 PM

Quote:
i have been monitoring the temps while running applications and they range from 35-40'C.

Oh, and your temps sound fine. I doubt that you're having overheating problems.

Unless, of course, what is overheating is your PSU. With a good exhaust fan on the case, a PSU fan can fail and yet the rest of the system can be cooled well. Is your power supply's fan still running?

<pre><font color=purple><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=purple></pre><p>@ 187K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
May 11, 2005 4:17:17 PM

Thanks for all ther responses. I did manage to seperate the CPU and the HS. I have put them back together now and nack in my machine and they seem to be no worse for the wear.

I put my RAM in another slot to see any difference and memtest still froze up at the same spot.

The fan on my power supply is working fine. I was wondering why in MBM5 tha I am getting a 0.00V reading for -5.00 and -12.00. Is this normal?
May 11, 2005 5:13:56 PM

Quote:
I was wondering why in MBM5 tha I am getting a 0.00V reading for -5.00 and -12.00. Is this normal?

It happens quite a bit in MBM5. I'm not sure exactly why, and there may be a way to fix it in the settings somewhere, or there may not be. **shrug** It's usually nothing to worry about though since the negative rails are hardly ever a concern.

<pre><font color=purple><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=purple></pre><p>@ 187K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
May 11, 2005 5:20:08 PM

It sounds like you're having problems all over your system...

The 'clicking' noise you're hearing from your hd, normally i would say is a good indicator of your problem. In addition, since you're having problems with other things (memory...), i would look pretty hard at your psu. If your power supply isn't working properly then it can cause problems with any number of components in your system. As a warning, if a bad psu is left in a system (that is supplying inconstant voltages to components) it can eventually destroy those components.

This can end up being pretty costly overall...since nobody here can reliably tell you it's <i>definately</i> one thing over another. This is where you will save money by taking it to a tech (or using your warrenty if it's still good) to let them try to fix it. They should have all of the components in shop to try testing these different problems. Keep in mind though, if this was caused by some sort of power flicker/voltage problem/psu issue, that any number of your components <i>could</i> wear out and begin to cause similar problems because of the stress put on them by the issues described above in the upcoming year or so.

F@H:
AMD: [64 3500+ down][64 3000+][2500+][2000+][1.3x2 down][366]
Intel: [X 3.0x3][P4 3.0x2][P4 2.4x5 down][P4 1.4]

"...and i'm not gay" RX8 -Greatest Quote of ALL Time
May 11, 2005 10:50:46 PM

Hey everyone,
I think I agree you are saying about the power supply.I was thinking about doing an upgrade bit by bit anyways so I will eventually come to some sort of conclusion as I go.

I am going to start with the power supply. I am going to look on the web tonight but would appreciate any suggestions on things to look for such as specs and brands when it comes to buying one. Thanks
May 12, 2005 4:03:26 AM

Your 2 biggest problems are memory band width, and too much shite on your start menu.
If you want your old speed back, try a re-install.
If you want a little faster, add another stick of the same type of ram, for dual channel.
You biggest benefit would be from getting a P4c chip, with dual channel ram.
May 12, 2005 9:33:28 AM

I'm probably the only one here, but I don't think its your PSU. A faulty PSU can cause reboots, instability, but doesn't cause slowdowns, and won't make memtest lock up at same spot each time. Furthermore, your voltages look perfect. CPU overheating is another issue that is *not* causing your issues. First, your temps are fine, second, P4s will throttle when overheating, but that doesn't explain any of the effects you are seeing.

So what IS your problem ? Sound like you may have more than one, but my biggest concern is the harddisk. I'm not sure what utility you ran, but did it test S.M.A.R.T ? Do you have SMART enabled in your bios (if it supports it ?). SMART is not fail proof, but it does really help in detecting hard drive problems before the drive dies. But even if SMART doesn't detect anything, I'd be very warry, get a new drive, and move your data to it.

The memtest issue.. I've never seen memtest lockup, even with bad memory modules or extreme overclocks. It will usually either report an error, or reboot the machine. are you sure you are waiting long enough ? Some test are really slow. Either way, while there might be an issue here or not, once more, it doesn't explain the behaviour you are seeing. Bad memory will also reboot the machine, cause exceptions or blue screens, but not slow response.

I saw you ran spybot, but you might also want to run a registry cleaner. I tried tweaknow regclear, and I was very impressed with the speedup I saw, but the program isnt free (got a serial from some porn ridden keygen site). Maybe someone can point you (and me) to a free alternative ?

Anyway, in short, I'd ignore the memtest issue for now. If windows memory diagnostics doesn't report anything, any problem you might have is not likely huge. Ignore the PSU and CPU, both seem fine (though a slow pcu). Focus on your harddisk and windows setup. Once that works out, have a closer look at the memtest thing, once you figured that out, consider what you'll upgrade next.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
May 12, 2005 1:18:24 PM

Quote:
A faulty PSU can cause reboots, instability, but doesn't cause slowdowns

I hate to tell you this, but you're <i>really</i> wrong on this one. I've seen a faulty PSU cause slowdowns on a number of systems.

When hard drives get slightly undervolted. ATA, like so many communications standards, is designed to repeat a transmission on a miscommunication. So when the hard drive is sending weak signals and has to repeat itself a lot, this causes a significant and noticable slowdown. Ditto for ethernet, especially with Windows kernels, and also for memory. Hell, really, for pretty much everything in a PC these days. The more PCs have been designed to handle bad transmissions by repeating the communication, the more a bad PSU can cause slowdowns without bringing the system to a halt.

While I agree with you that the voltages don't look <i>low</i>, what is strange is that the 5V line is almost dangerously <i>over</i>volted. 5.23V is only .02V from the 5.25V allowed maximum variation in the ATX spec, which itself is a bit scary IMHO. So it's entirely possible that the power supply has burned or is burning something out.

What is also possible is that the power supply is fluxuating, which is why we've been pushing for a log of the voltages over time, preferable in association to adverse behavior. Fluxuations would certainly explain a lot. But even without any fluxuations occuring, the overvolting is a little worrisome.

And while possible, it seems highly unlikely that it's the hard drive because:
1) The drive already passed a test and by the description of the noise there probably would have been head clashes that damaged a platter were that really the problem, so it shouldn't have passed any tests if it were failing.
2) The memtest failure couldn't be caused by a failing hard drive, but memtest flat out failing like that would indicate a serious problem.

So my first concern is the PSU. My second concern is what you've already sagely suggested earlier, to nudge the VDIMM up a little.

<pre><font color=purple><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=purple></pre><p>@ 187K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
May 12, 2005 2:01:49 PM

>I hate to tell you this, but you're really wrong on this one.

Why would you hate it ? Nah, quite on the contrary, you'd just love to prove me wrong on something, anything, .. it would be a shame for the original poster however, if you abuse this thread to try and do just that, creating alternative universes again to prove the unprovable.

>When hard drives get slightly undervolted. ATA, like so many
> communications standards, is designed to repeat a
>transmission on a miscommunication.

Thats the first time I ever heard of that. Got a link for me ? I know there is an ECC algoritm in ATA, but that wouldn't cause (noticable) slowdown, and no retransmission, it works pretty much transparently like ECC RAM. In fact, I've never heard ATA would retransmit under any circumstance. If it where as fault tolerant as you seem to suggest, bad ATA cables or too high overclocks wouldn't cause the HD corruption that is seen so often.

>While I agree with you that the voltages don't look low,
>what is strange is that the 5V line is almost dangerously
>overvolted.

Considering the error in measuring such values, these seems perfectly healthy to me. Further more, harddisks are powered by the 12v rail afaik. 12.29V is a-ok.

>So it's entirely possible that the power supply has burned
>or is burning something out.

Nothing would burn at those voltages.

>And while possible, it seems highly unlikely that it's the
>hard drive because:
>1) The drive already passed a test

Yes, but surely you remember deskstar 60XPs ? they would pass any test when the click of death began, IBM would go as far as saying the sound was normal, but a couple of months later, the drive was toast. I haven't heard his disk, so I don't know if it really has a problem (some disks make odd noises without it being troublesome) but if a ball bearing is wearing out for instance, no diagnose pogram will pick it up until it causes the disk to fail.

BTW, I assume he just ran a surface scanner, which would certainly not detect these kind of errors, and will keep claiming the disk is okay until the day it fails to spin up.

> and by the description of
> the noise there probably would have been head clashes that > damaged a platter were that really the problem,

Head clashes ? Damaged platter ? What on earth makes you think that ? A head crash will kill the drive, or at least data, and would have been picked up even by a surface scan. Highly unlikely that happens every time he boots. Doesn't mean his disk is okay though.

>so it shouldn't have passed any tests if it were failing.

well there are so many different kinds of failing, other than head crashes. Worn out ball bearing is another common one, but it could be *anything*. Might as well be the mechanism moving the head over the platter.

>2) The memtest failure couldn't be caused by a failing hard
>drive,

Agreed, but since none of his symptons seem to indicate a ram error, and MS memory diag test completed without error, I don't believe bad ram is his real problem either. Might be an incompatibility between memtest and his motherboard or videocard as well for all I know. And even if the memtest failing is correct, he cearly has another issue as bad ram doesn't cause long delays in windows either.

>So my first concern is the PSU. My second concern is what
>you've already sagely suggested earlier, to nudge the VDIMM
>up a little.

Neither makes sense to me. One or the other *might* cure memtest failing (but I doubt it already), but neither will cure his slowdowns or HD clicking sounds.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
May 12, 2005 8:37:52 PM

Quote:
Why would you hate it ? Nah, quite on the contrary, you'd just love to prove me wrong on something, anything

Actually, you couldn't be further from the truth, <i>especially</i> because this is in a thread to help someone with a problem. Unlike you, I'm not petty enough to even think of it.

Quote:
it would be a shame for the original poster however, if you abuse this thread to try and do just that, creating alternative universes again to prove the unprovable.

You really need to get a life. Not only are you delusional, but you're seriously warped to even be thinking like that.

Quote:
I know there is an ECC algoritm in ATA, but that wouldn't cause (noticable) slowdown, and no retransmission, it works pretty much transparently like ECC RAM.

Hello? Are you even trying to make sense? Just what do you think that it's for? It just flat out fails if it detects a simple checksum error? That'd be downright stupid. Like just about every communication protocol with error checking to ever be written, if an error is detected the data request is resent. Generally most protocols will attempt three times before raising an error.

Quote:
If it where as fault tolerant as you seem to suggest, bad ATA cables or too high overclocks wouldn't cause the HD corruption that is seen so often.

That might be true if it was a two way system, but generally it isn't.

Quote:
Considering the error in measuring such values, these seems perfectly healthy to me.

How nice for you. I however don't see being a mere away 0.02V from the maximum allowable <i>over</i>volting to be perfectly healthy, and believe that the poster should be made aware of this so that they can make their own decision about trusting it.

Quote:
Further more, harddisks are powered by the 12v rail afaik. 12.29V is a-ok.
...
Nothing would burn at those voltages.

In an exceedingly quick search I found <A HREF="http://www.maxtor.com/_files/maxtor/en_us/documentation..." target="_new">this PDF file</A>. Note that it specifically states "<font color=red><b>Voltage Requirements 5V+/-5% 12V+/-10%</b></font color=red>". So not only do hard drives use the 5V line as well as the 12V line, but they also <i>could</i> burn at +5% of the 5V lead.

Quote:
but if a ball bearing is wearing out for instance, no diagnose pogram will pick it up until it causes the disk to fail.

1) Most hard drives today use fluid bearings, not ball bearings.
2) The description of the noise sounds a lot more like a head dragging than a bearing clicking IMHO.

Quote:
BTW, I assume he just ran a surface scanner, which would certainly not detect these kind of errors, and will keep claiming the disk is okay until the day it fails to spin up.

Do you even know what you're talking about? Surface scanners pick up physical errors <i>long</i> before the drive fails to spin up.

Quote:
Head clashes ? Damaged platter ? What on earth makes you think that ? A head crash will kill the drive, or at least data, and would have been picked up even by a surface scan. Highly unlikely that happens every time he boots.

That's exactly my point. That's what the noise described sounds like to me. It <i>is</i> highly unlikely, and <i>were</i> it happening so frequently it'd be a serious problem. Since the surface scan didn't pick up any such errors however, that rules this out as being the most likely cause of problems. So whatever <i>is</i> causing the disk's noise is <i>not</i> the immediate problem. It may be indicative of a problem down the line, but the system clearly has more pressing concerns than that.

Quote:
Agreed, but since none of his symptons seem to indicate a ram error

None of course <i>except</i> for the failed memtest and sluggish behavior that <i>could</i> be indicative of undervolted RAM.

Quote:
and MS memory diag test completed without error

I don't even know what test this is, but if it's from MS that already makes it suspect IMHO.

Quote:
Might be an incompatibility between memtest and his motherboard or videocard as well for all I know.

Right. Because video card incompatabilities with memtest happen all the time... :\ Are you trying to spread disinformation on purpose or what here? What could possibly inspire you to say something like that? I mean <i>other</i> than your petty and childish behavior.

Quote:
And even if the memtest failing is correct, he cearly has another issue as bad ram doesn't cause long delays in windows either.

Long delays? Not usually. Usually bad RAM causes lockups and blue screens. And slightly undervolted RAM generally causes short delays.

One component having possible problems (hard drive making noise and possibly slowing Windows down) is one thing. But two components having possible problems (memory not completing memtest) indicate something else common to these components may be causing them to behave abnormally. And that pretty much indicates either power supply or mobo.

Quote:
Neither makes sense to me. One or the other *might* cure memtest failing (but I doubt it already), but neither will cure his slowdowns or HD clicking sounds.

Considering how much sense you're making, I'm not surprised. The HD clicking sounds could be the head dragging, or possibly even the head <i>over</i> shooting and dragging on restraints because of overvolting. And the performance problems can be from HD delays, or any number of delays from other components that could be caused by a funny power supply.

Is either a guaranteed fix? No. Would a more dependable PSU or slightly upping the VDIMM in any way hurt? No. So even if they don't fix, they don't hurt to try either.

<pre><font color=purple><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=purple></pre><p>@ 187K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
May 12, 2005 9:29:45 PM

>You really need to get a life. Not only are you delusional,
>but you're seriously warped to even be thinking like that.

Sure.. whatever. Maybe someone believes you. Still looking forward to continuing the 0.9r discussion you bailed out of though.. parellel universes do interest me.

>Hello? Are you even trying to make sense? Just what do you
>think that it's for? It just flat out fails if it detects a
>simple checksum error? Like just about every communication >protocol with error checking to ever be written, if an error
> is detected the data request is resent.

ECC not only detects errors, it *corrects* them on the fly, eliminating the need of a retransmission (well, which is impossible in the case of ECC RAM, so eliminating a system halt). I don't know how ATA is implemented, but noticeable slowdownss/hickups because of this just seem unreal, especially as the result of "overvolting" by 3%. But again, if they frequently occur, a SMART diagnostic utility should be able to tell him. But considering there is also a strange noise, a failing mechanical part makes a lot more sense than your claim. Unless you think this error correction system produces noises..

>In an exceedingly quick search I found this PDF file. Note
>that it specifically states "Voltage Requirements 5V+/-5%
>12V+/-10%". So not only do hard drives use the 5V line as
>well as the 12V line, but they also could burn at +5% of the
> 5V lead.

Yup. Considering this persons PSU is deliviring voltages which are completely within the (usually, conservative) specs for which this HD manufacturer <b>guarantees</b> its disks to work.. I think its likely he should be concerned about burning anything. Quite likely, honestly.

FWIW, i just threw on eye on MBM, and I'm getting: +3.25v, +5.1v +12.6v from my Enermax PSU. I better call the fire department right away, before anything ignites.

>2) The description of the noise sounds a lot more like a
>head dragging than a bearing clicking IMHO.

Show me one disk that still works ok that "drags it head". One link, anything.

>Do you even know what you're talking about? Surface scanners
> pick up physical errors long before the drive fails to spin
> up.

A surface scan picks up next to *nothing* these days, since they don't even scan the surface anymore. The entire disk is virtualized for the scanner (and bios and OS) and has been for over ten or so years. These things are as obsolete as disk head parking programs, and its not for no reason you need brand or even model specific HD diag tools.

>I don't even know what test this is, but if it's from MS
>that already makes it suspect IMHO.

Still it stresses your ram more than booting windows. i wouldn't bet on a stick never producing any errors because the MS tool doesnt find any, but I would bet that that stick will not produce constant problems when doing next to nothing like opening or closing windows.

>Right. Because video card incompatabilities with memtest
>happen all the time... :\ Are you trying to spread
>disinformation on purpose or what here?

No; again it seems I overestimated your knowledge. Many memory testers, especially those that can start from within an OS like DOS, will TSR themselves into *video memory* to be able test all the system RAM. I have several such tools here, because they work from my (DOS) bootable USB dongle (unlike memtest86), and these tools DONT work on motherboads with UMA video, or certain specific videocards for exactly that reason.

>And slightly undervolted RAM generally causes short delays.

Got a link for me ? I *never* heard this, nor do I see how it could be possible.

>One component having possible problems (hard drive making
>noise and possibly slowing Windows down) is one thing. But
>two components having possible problems (memory not
>completing memtest) indicate something else common to these
>components may be causing them to behave abnormally. And
>that pretty much indicates either power supply or mobo.

Yes, I agree its odd, but I wouldn't focus on finding a possible single problem source, when there is none that is anywhere remotely likely. The HD sound isnt caused by his motherboard or PSU. So if the clicking sound is symptomatic for a hardware failure, he likely has more than one problem. lets just wait for him to report back what the Samsung utility tells him.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
May 13, 2005 1:56:53 AM

guys the man whos problem ur arguing kindly abour has left the building.

take some kronic from me and chill.

<font color=purple> MY FINGER IS ON THE BUTTON! </font color=purple>
May 13, 2005 2:10:15 PM

Quote:
Sure.. whatever. Maybe someone believes you. Still looking forward to continuing the 0.9r discussion you bailed out of though.. parellel universes do interest me.

Unlike you, I really don't care if anyone believes me. I don't suffer from some insane need to constantly prove myself. The reason <i>why</i> I didn't want to correct you is that I've simply grown tired of playing your little games. So you might as well stop looking forward to it. Were it not for your plethora of misinformation I wouldn't have even bothered.

I also find it very inappropriate that you even bring things like this up in a thread to help someone diagnose their problems. Seek help. Or a life.

<pre><font color=purple><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=purple></pre><p>@ 187K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
May 13, 2005 2:11:14 PM

Quote:
take some kronic from me and chill.

I couldn't agree more.

<pre><font color=purple><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=purple></pre><p>@ 187K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
May 13, 2005 5:05:37 PM

Hey guys,
No I haven't left the building, just had to step out. Soory about no reponse yesterday. To elaborate, I work with a general contractor and the weather is getting nice now so we are busy and long days are nothing new (not that I am the only one who works long days). However yesterday we got to a job which was supposed to be repair one section of a fence. We get there and are greeted by "I think we will replace the fence" followed by "Is it possible to replace our patio". Fine enough. However this was followed by (and this is the kicker) "Can everything be done by tommorow (Friday). We are having a party and would like this all done." The boss is a nice guy so he said we'll try. Anyways, we called it a day at 10:00 last night after a 15 hour day (Is it possible to get RAM for my back. Ha). I got home at 11:00, dropped on the couch and maybe saw 5 minutes of tv before I crashed. We finished it up this morning and now I am home and able to get back to you. What is the relevance of this? I just wanted to let everyone know that I really appreciate all the help and I am learning a lot. Any lack of response is not because I don't care or don't appreciate it, it's just that I am not always able to repond as quick as I would like to. As for the kronic, sounds like an idea together with a group hug. Ha. I will be around today. Very sore but here (doctor syas I need a backeotomy. Ha. All the talk of kronic, someone should recognize that line from a great movie). Again, I appreciate all the help and have all along.

Back to the issue. I agree that this problem has to many possible influences to narrow it down to one. As I said, I am planning an upgrade anyways so I should get to the heart of the problem eventually. I think I will start with the power supply. I am not sure if I mentioned it but my power supply seems to be some generic brand as I can see no company name on it. I am going to run the Samsung diagnostic and see what it says. Following that I am going to contact Samsung and see what they say. They seem to have a three year warranty on their hard drives so I will explain what is going on to them and see what happens. I have started keeping a log for MBM5 but initially had the number of entries too low (corrected now) so I am missing some earlier ones. Below is what is contained in the log.

+---------------+---------------+----------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+
| | | | Case | Chipset | CPU | Core 0 | CPU/IO | +3.3 | +5.00 | +12.00 | -12.00 | -5.00 | Fan 1 | Fan 2 | Fan 3 | CPU0 |
+---------------+---------------+----------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+------------+
| 13/05/2005 | 12:52:27 PM | 2195 MHz | 33° C | 33° C | 37° C | 1.48 V | 1.44 V | 3.27 V | 5.23 V | 12.29 V | 0.00 V | 0.00 V | 3368 RPM | 0 RPM | 0 RPM | 0.00 % |


| 13/05/2005 | 12:19:07 PM | 2195 MHz | 33° C | 33° C | 37° C | 1.49 V | 1.44 V | 3.27 V | 5.23 V | 12.29 V | 0.00 V | 0.00 V | 3360 RPM | 0 RPM | 0 RPM | 0.00 % |


| 13/05/2005 | 11:45:47 AM | 2195 MHz | 33° C | 33° C | 37° C | 1.49 V | 1.44 V | 3.27 V | 5.23 V | 12.29 V | 0.00 V | 0.00 V | 3368 RPM | 0 RPM | 0 RPM | 0.00 % |


| 13/05/2005 | 11:12:27 AM | 2195 MHz | 30° C | 31° C | 36° C | 1.46 V | 1.44 V | 3.27 V | 5.25 V | 12.16 V | 0.00 V | 0.00 V | 3360 RPM | 0 RPM | 0 RPM | 0.00 % |


| 13/05/2005 | 10:05:47 AM | 2195 MHz | 32° C | 33° C | 37° C | 1.49 V | 1.44 V | 3.27 V | 5.23 V | 12.29 V | 0.00 V | 0.00 V | 3360 RPM | 0 RPM | 0 RPM | 0.00 % |


| 13/05/2005 | 9:32:27 AM | 2195 MHz | 32° C | 32° C | 37° C | 1.47 V | 1.44 V | 3.27 V | 5.23 V | 12.29 V | 0.00 V | 0.00 V | 3368 RPM | 0 RPM | 0 RPM | 0.00 % |


| 13/05/2005 | 8:59:07 AM | 2195 MHz | 31° C | 32° C | 37° C | 1.48 V | 1.44 V | 3.27 V | 5.25 V | 12.23 V | 0.00 V | 0.00 V | 3351 RPM | 0 RPM | 0 RPM | 0.00 % |


| 12/05/2005 | 10:19:29 PM | 2195 MHz | 32° C | 32° C | 34° C | 1.49 V | 1.44 V | 3.29 V | 5.23 V | 12.29 V | 0.00 V | 0.00 V | 3351 RPM | 0 RPM | 0 RPM | 0.00 % |



| 12/05/2005 | 9:46:09 PM | 2195 MHz | 32° C | 32° C | 35° C | 1.49 V | 1.44 V | 3.29 V | 5.25 V | 12.23 V | 0.00 V | 0.00 V | 3360 RPM | 0 RPM | 0 RPM | 0.00 % |


| 12/05/2005 | 9:12:49 PM | 2195 MHz | 32° C | 33° C | 34° C | 1.49 V | 1.44 V | 3.29 V | 5.23 V | 12.29 V | 0.00 V | 0.00 V | 3368 RPM | 0 RPM | 0 RPM | 0.00 % |


| 12/05/2005 | 8:39:29 PM | 2195 MHz | 32° C | 32° C | 35° C | 1.49 V | 1.44 V | 3.29 V | 5.23 V | 12.29 V | 0.00 V | 0.00 V | 3360 RPM | 0 RPM | 0 RPM | 0.00 % |


| 12/05/2005 | 8:06:09 PM | 2195 MHz | 32° C | 32° C | 35° C | 1.49 V | 1.44 V | 3.27 V | 5.25 V | 12.23 V | 0.00 V | 0.00 V | 3360 RPM | 0 RPM | 0 RPM | 0.00 % |


| 12/05/2005 | 7:32:49 PM | 2195 MHz | 32° C | 32° C | 35° C | 1.49 V | 1.44 V | 3.29 V | 5.23 V | 12.29 V | 0.00 V | 0.00 V | 3377 RPM | 0 RPM | 0 RPM | 0.00 % |


| 12/05/2005 | 6:59:29 PM | 2195 MHz | 32° C | 33° C | 35° C | 1.49 V | 1.44 V | 3.29 V | 5.23 V | 12.29 V | 0.00 V | 0.00 V | 3368 RPM | 0 RPM | 0 RPM | 0.00 % |
May 13, 2005 5:08:37 PM

Got cut off by mistake. I was wondering why the negative voltages are always 0. Could this be a problem. Again thanks to all for their help.
May 13, 2005 6:17:34 PM

Sorry about the long hours at work. I've been there myself. Do you at least get paid overtime and/or comp time? It really sucks when you don't.

But hey, it could have been worse. When I hired a contractor to rip a crappily-constructed back extension from my house and replace it with a deck, it was only as he pulled the extension away from the house with his cat that we found a nest of honey bees and a nest of wasps had merged together in the roofing. :o  They honey bees weren't so evil, but the wasps stung a few folks. I felt so bad about that. Had I know I would have called an exterminator first. I offered to call one afterwords, but they wanted to get the job done, so we just bought a crap load of raid for wasps and hosed down the nests with it.

Anywho, back to the topic at hand though. I'm even more concerned about the power supply now. The 5V rail actually is fluxuating all the way up to 5.25V, which is the absolute limit for the ATX spec. I've seen components fail when undervolted by less than the 5% range ATX allows for. I've never really dealt with overvolting before, but I wouldn't be surprised if weird things happened when overvolted by 5%. Hopefully nothing is actually being damaged by that.

<pre><font color=purple><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=purple></pre><p>@ 187K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
May 13, 2005 6:21:19 PM

Quote:
I was wondering why the negative voltages are always 0. Could this be a problem. Again thanks to all for their help.

They're probably just not being reported by your motherboard. Not all mobos report everything, and pretty much anytime MBM can't detect something it gives it a value of 0. I wouldn't worry.

<pre><font color=purple><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=purple></pre><p>@ 187K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
May 13, 2005 6:40:10 PM

Ouch. Sounds like fun. Don't get me wrong though. Days like yesterday are great. Long hours=fat cheque=nice upgrades (or other toys). My kinda math.
I am not sure if I mentioned this before, but I do a lot of work with photos and streaming video such as converting vhs tapes to dvd's, vcd's etc. I use a variety of applications. Could this be a load on the power supply when I start doing things like this such as converting a vhs tape to dvd. In other words, could the change in voltage correspond to when one of these conversions start/run? The device that captures the vhs video has it's own plug for the wall and connects to the usb port, video and sound cards
May 13, 2005 6:54:03 PM

Well, the CPU, RAM, hard drive, etc. all being used would increase the load on the power supply. But I don't think that VHS device would be draining it any.

But really, in your case, with that power supply, draining it doesn't look like a problem. In fact I think what you'd <i>want</i> is to drain it. :o  It looks like the power supply is just putting out too much voltage.

So how well does the VHS to VCD/DVD conversion go? I'd contemplated doing the same myself (mostly because I'm tired of old and cheap VHS tapes going bad), but I never got around to buying a VCR to keep near my PC. (Since my PC is no where near my TV.) Is the quality still as good as the VHS after the encoding?

<pre><font color=purple><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=purple></pre><p>@ 187K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
May 13, 2005 10:14:58 PM

I just ran the Samsung hard drive diagnostic and everything came up ok. Below is the log from the test.
[SELF DIAGNOSTIC (Hutil v1.24)]
Model Name : SAMSUNG SP1604N
Rom Revision : TM100-24
Serial Number : 0651J1FWA48577
Drive Size : 152627MB (LBA : 312581808)
Start Time : Fri May 13 15:43:27 2005


-------------------------------------------------
Test Loop Number : 1/1
-------------------------------------------------
>> CHECK CHANNEL INTEGRITY : Testing... Pass !
>> CHECK M.C. : Testing... Pass !
>> CHECK S.M.A.R.T. : Testing... Pass !
>> SPIN DOWN / UP : Testing... Pass !
>> SIMPLE READ / WRITE : Testing... Pass !
>> SIMPLE SURFACE SCAN : Testing... Pass !
>> WRITE VERIFY : Testing... Pass !
>> AVERAGE SEEK TIME : Testing... Pass !
>> MAXIMUM SEEK TIME : Testing... Pass !
>> RANDOM SURFACE SCAN : Testing... Pass !
>> READ SURFACE SCAN : Testing... Pass !

Scan Elapsed Time : 00:55:28
End Time : Fri May 13 16:40:52 2005
Test was completed.
=================================================

The only thing of note is that I heard the same clicking sound right as it finishes the SPIN DOWN / UP part of the test or the beginning of SIMPLE READ / WRITE parts of the test. I tested twice to verify the sound.

As for the conversions, I use a product called DVD Express. The website is http://www.adstech.com
It is a really good product and very easy to use. I am only using it to convert actual vhs movies to dvd right now but you can do quite a lot with it and the software included with it is good. The quality is excellent. The sound is even better than before and the picture is just as good as the actual vhs. If you have a lot of movies or other things on vhs and you want to put them on dvd this device is a good investment. It works with camcorders too. Basically you connect your vcr or camcorder to the device and connect the device to the computer via usb. You can go right to disc or save it to edit it later then burn it. You can view it on your computer as well and create menus and other features.
May 14, 2005 12:02:04 AM

Did some googling for you, and may interest you:
<A HREF="http://www.dreamcatchergames.com/forums/showthread.php?..." target="_new">this thread</A> may interest you:
Similar sympton: strange noises on a fairly new disk, slowdowns, hickups and freezes, yet no errors to be found even when running HD specific diagnostic tools for an hour nonstop. He cured it by changing the disk though.

Not saying that is guaranteed to be your problem, but its still far and away my first thought.

Your voltages look just fine to me, stable and they are within specs your disk is guaranteed to work; furthermore, slightly higher voltages are quite normal under light load, I wouldn't worry.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
May 14, 2005 1:43:42 AM

That was a good thread. Thanks for the link. i am planning to replace the hard drive soon. I am going to call Samsung first and see what they say. Funny thing, I was thinking about the 160Gb WD. Ha. I think I will have to do a little more research
May 14, 2005 2:45:43 AM

Looks like another of those ripoff PC retailers who say half truths just to make a sale.

They can make a lot of extra profit buy using old/secondhand parts and selling as new/current components installed.

I bet they said to themself, "here's another sucker".

<font color=red><b>DCB</b></font color=red><font color=white><b>_</b></font color=white><font color=blue><b>AU</b></font color=blue>
May 14, 2005 3:04:09 AM

I agree. Just a few months ago I heard that the company I bought my system off had sold some with secondhand hard drives in them in years past.

My computer has been really bad tonight. I have done a few restarts and it takes a long time to boot every time. During bootup it seems to hang right before it counts the RAM. Once it counts the RAM it finds everything and carries on. There is also a delay and a black screen right before the blue screen comes up to log in.
We are having thunderstorms here tonight (any connection??) so I am shutting everything down for the night. Thanks for all the responses.
May 14, 2005 3:19:25 AM

What are everyone's experiences with Maxtor vs. Western Digital hard drives. I have had experience with Maxtor ones, albeit no bigger than 10Gb, but have never had a problem. I am looking at a Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 9 160Gb 7200 RPM or a Western Digital Caviar 160GB 7200RPM. The main differences seem to be the maxtor has a maximum data transfer rate of 133Mbps and the WD has 100Mbps and the Wd has a 40 pin EIDE interface while the Maxtor has a IDE interface. Also the Maxtor is an OEM. I can't remember what that means again. Appreciate any insights.
May 14, 2005 12:18:49 PM

Hey everyone. I got an error message this morning to go along with something else. AS windows was loading and the programs were starting up I got this error:

mghtml.exe Application error.
The instruction at "0x008c94f4'" referenced memory at 0x7170bd18". The memory could not be "read". Click ok to terminate problem.

I don't recognize mghtml.exe. I went into msconfig but it is not listed as something that should run on startup. Any thoughts?
a b à CPUs
May 14, 2005 2:58:03 PM

When I googled MGHTML.exe Application error I got a lot of virus hits. Have your run a virus scan like Norton or McAfee with updated definitions? Spyware/Freeware detector/cleaner like Adaware?

__________________________________________________
<font color=red>You're a boil on the arse of progress - don't make me squeeze you!</font color=red>
May 14, 2005 3:03:18 PM

I saw that too when I googled. I have Mcafee virus scan (updated regularily) and ran it , found nothing. I ran spybot as well and was ok. Thanks
May 14, 2005 3:04:32 PM

I was wondering about the error message where it refers to memory. Could that have something to do with the RAM?
May 14, 2005 3:12:13 PM

>mghtml.exe

<A HREF="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mghtml.exe&btnG=Go..." target="_new">Google </A> is your friend; its part of McAfee, its not suspect.

It shouldn't crash though.. unfortunately, the error is message is pretty generic, it could point to a lot of things, it doesn't tell us much, except confirm what we already knew: you have a problem (quite possibly, more than one).

If I where you, I'd try and return the drive if its under warranty, if not, buy a new one, and take advantage of the occasion to reinstall windows. Make sure you have service pack 2 on a CD somewhere, and install it and enable the firewall *before* you allow the computer to access the internet This is vital. PC Magazine apparently did a test recently with an unpatched windows with no firewall, and it got a worm infection in 8 seconds.

Then install an antivirus (I like AVG a lot, and its free, but any AV is far better than none) before connecting the old drive. Then scan the old drive for virusses, if its clean, start moving your docs to the new disk.

Then there is still the memtest issue which is odd.. you've not answered yet the question if you are certain it does freeze, since some tests really are slow (does the little /-\| thing keep "spinning" ? What test does it freeze ?). If it indeed it freezes, try removing one stick at the time (if you have more than) one, and find the one that causes the freeze. once found, shoot it with a shotgun, and burn the remains to avoid ever using it again :D 

As for which drive to choose.. I guess few people will buy enough Maxtors and WDs to have any relevant statistics to share. I've had (and mostly still have) 4 Maxtors over the last few years and never had an issue, but that doesn't prove a whole lot.

As for the interface/transfer speed.. the ATA100 or 133 refers to the interface speed, and both are quite a bit more than either disk can sustain. In theory, ATA133 could speed up things a bit when bursting from cache, but I wouldn't expect any real world difference because of that. Try and find some reviews to help make up your mind, but I suspect they will be neck and neck.

As for the oem version; could refer to the packaging, so it doesn't come in a big cardboard box, which is just fine. But it could also impact warranty. For anything as failure prone and important as a harddisk, warranty would be a prime purchasing factor for me.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
May 14, 2005 8:45:47 PM

Memtest freezes each time at the 9 second mark. Tests 1 and 2 are fine and then it freezes at test 3. The timer stops at 9 seconds which is when test 3 starts. I have left in on overnight once and for a couple of hours other times. I am sure that should be enough time? I will run again and watch for the spinning stick.
I only have one stick of RAM (512MB). I changed slots and tried and the same thing happens again. I think I may get another hard drive tommorow. Worse case scenario I'll have two hard drives. Thanks