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TECH: Socketing TIP-style transistors?

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Anonymous
September 20, 2005 5:41:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Tomorrow, I'm going to replace two P22NE10L transistors on a NASCAR at
Q1/Q2 that were delivered bad out of the box (stuck open).

I understand that LotR had issues with this type transistor blowing,
and was wondering of I could socket this with the snappable row-type
sockets and plug the transistor into the socket. Would too much
current be lost? More likely to build resistance? Any forseeable
downside to this? If it works, replacing the ones that may commonly
blow would be fast and easy, and there would only be one
solder/desolder job (the first one, where the socket was installed).

Any comments?
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 5:41:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

you have a picture of the sockets you are going to use or where you got them
from, part number. This has been done for years on monitors and I'm sure
other applications. As long as the socket is tight and will hold the
trasistor in place over the long haul with all the vibration you should be
fine. I just opened up a arcade legends and they have some sort of socket
that is vertical and mounted to the side of the cabinet holding automotive
type fuses and the socket was real tight, I don't know why they did it that
way but it looks like it works, but there is no reason to do this until the
game blows them and home use only games should not suffer from this problem.

Trin
"Vic Ireland" <vicNOS*P*A*Mireland@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:crpui1pddds9jut0kf7nungio573saiesu@4ax.com...
> Tomorrow, I'm going to replace two P22NE10L transistors on a NASCAR at
> Q1/Q2 that were delivered bad out of the box (stuck open).
>
> I understand that LotR had issues with this type transistor blowing,
> and was wondering of I could socket this with the snappable row-type
> sockets and plug the transistor into the socket. Would too much
> current be lost? More likely to build resistance? Any forseeable
> downside to this? If it works, replacing the ones that may commonly
> blow would be fast and easy, and there would only be one
> solder/desolder job (the first one, where the socket was installed).
>
> Any comments?
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 5:41:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Hi Vic,

Although it may sound like a good idea... there is a good chance that the
leads of the transistor won't fit into the little IC socket holes. If they
do fit into the socket - I still wouldn't recommend it as the IC socket legs
are only 0.018" in diameter (typically) - and can't handle as much current
as the transistor's fatter legs.

They do make TO-220 transistor sockets - but I have yet to find one good
enough to trust. Most of them are pretty cheezy in the contact area and
would probably cause more damage due to heat (caused by excessive contact
resistance) than desoldering/soldering the transistors.

my 2cents,
Ed Krzycki
Great Plains Electronics
www.GreatPlainsElectronics.com



"Vic Ireland" <vicNOS*P*A*Mireland@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:crpui1pddds9jut0kf7nungio573saiesu@4ax.com...
> Tomorrow, I'm going to replace two P22NE10L transistors on a NASCAR at
> Q1/Q2 that were delivered bad out of the box (stuck open).
>
> I understand that LotR had issues with this type transistor blowing,
> and was wondering of I could socket this with the snappable row-type
> sockets and plug the transistor into the socket. Would too much
> current be lost? More likely to build resistance? Any forseeable
> downside to this? If it works, replacing the ones that may commonly
> blow would be fast and easy, and there would only be one
> solder/desolder job (the first one, where the socket was installed).
>
> Any comments?
Related resources
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 5:41:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

In my opinion putting a device like that in a socket would only lead to
more frequent repairs and less reliability.


-cody
CARGPB#4


Vic Ireland wrote:
> Tomorrow, I'm going to replace two P22NE10L transistors on a NASCAR at
> Q1/Q2 that were delivered bad out of the box (stuck open).
>
> I understand that LotR had issues with this type transistor blowing,
> and was wondering of I could socket this with the snappable row-type
> sockets and plug the transistor into the socket. Would too much
> current be lost? More likely to build resistance? Any forseeable
> downside to this? If it works, replacing the ones that may commonly
> blow would be fast and easy, and there would only be one
> solder/desolder job (the first one, where the socket was installed).
>
> Any comments?
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 5:41:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

It won't fit....

Sockets are made for smaller transistors, but
the "leg pattern" is triangular, and not "inline"
like the larger ones.

I have yet to see a socket that will work for
the larger MOSFETs.

(Oh, and the package arrived today. Thanks!) :) 

--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************




"Vic Ireland" <vicNOS*P*A*Mireland@mindspring.com> wrote

> Tomorrow, I'm going to replace two P22NE10L transistors on a NASCAR at
> Q1/Q2 that were delivered bad out of the box (stuck open).
>
> I understand that LotR had issues with this type transistor blowing,
> and was wondering of I could socket this with the snappable row-type
> sockets and plug the transistor into the socket. Would too much
> current be lost? More likely to build resistance? Any forseeable
> downside to this? If it works, replacing the ones that may commonly
> blow would be fast and easy, and there would only be one
> solder/desolder job (the first one, where the socket was installed).
>
> Any comments?
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 5:41:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Many TV sets over the years used TO220 transistors with sockets, and
they did cause a lot of problems. When working on these designs, the
first thing suspect would be sockets. I'd normally hard wire any
suspects directly to the board or solder the legs to the socket. I'd
recommend against using TO220 sockets. Another socket regularly used
for the small transistors like the predrivers we see in pinball
machines didn't fare any better. Quite often transistors would fall out
of these sockets altogether. The vibration of a pinball machine would
make matters much worse.
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 5:41:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I know how you can do it Vic if you want. You ever see someone put those
connectors in a pinball that have the small flat head screws in them, where
they were too lazy to put in header pins and a new female molex, just use
one of them with three legs, mount to the bottom of head, use a fairly heavy
wire to run to the board where the transistors go and screw wire ends in one
end of connector and bend legs so you can get them in on other side and
screw down, if you are worried about vibration making screws come loose, use
goop or locktite, not much then screw down flat head, you will have six
screws per connector.

Trin
"Vic Ireland" <vicNOS*P*A*Mireland@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:crpui1pddds9jut0kf7nungio573saiesu@4ax.com...
> Tomorrow, I'm going to replace two P22NE10L transistors on a NASCAR at
> Q1/Q2 that were delivered bad out of the box (stuck open).
>
> I understand that LotR had issues with this type transistor blowing,
> and was wondering of I could socket this with the snappable row-type
> sockets and plug the transistor into the socket. Would too much
> current be lost? More likely to build resistance? Any forseeable
> downside to this? If it works, replacing the ones that may commonly
> blow would be fast and easy, and there would only be one
> solder/desolder job (the first one, where the socket was installed).
>
> Any comments?
September 20, 2005 5:41:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

The best advice in this thread is, 1) if using a socket, solder the
pins in. And 2) stick in a beefier transistor.

I'll bet that Ed at GPE has some nice alternatives. (IRL540, 100V 26A
instead of 55V 22A). I would also put in fast blow fuses, still beats
me why these machines have slo-blo. makes no sense at all.

Never seen Stern electronics, but I always worry about clamp diodes.
September 20, 2005 5:41:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I thought that they did that to reduce RFI emissions. The coil
inductance should limit the slew rate anyway. Or is this a lamp? In
that case, the cap is a reasonable solution - but I would rather see a
higher-current transistor.
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 5:41:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

"martin" <martin.reynolds@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127194533.620269.211850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> The best advice in this thread is, 1) if using a socket, solder the
> pins in. And 2) stick in a beefier transistor.
>
> I'll bet that Ed at GPE has some nice alternatives. (IRL540, 100V 26A
> instead of 55V 22A). I would also put in fast blow fuses, still beats
> me why these machines have slo-blo. makes no sense at all.
>
> Never seen Stern electronics, but I always worry about clamp diodes.
>

Could also be a di/dt problem with the MOSFET's. Too rapid of a current
rise thru the MOSFET within a short time period. Many mfr's tend to put
small gate capacitors to slew rate limit the turn on time. Not sure if
Stern does this as it has been several weeks since I've looked into Stern
logics (much longer than my memory serves me).

-- Ed
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 6:51:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Thanks for the confirmation/warning. Resistance was what I was most
concerned about. Oh, well, nice thought. :/ 

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:21:00 -0500, "GPE"
<See_my_website_for_email@cox.net> wrote:

>They do make TO-220 transistor sockets - but I have yet to find one good
>enough to trust. Most of them are pretty cheezy in the contact area and
>would probably cause more damage due to heat (caused by excessive contact
>resistance) than desoldering/soldering the transistors.
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 6:55:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Vic Ireland wrote:
>
> Tomorrow, I'm going to replace two P22NE10L transistors on a NASCAR at
> Q1/Q2 that were delivered bad out of the box (stuck open).
>
> I understand that LotR had issues with this type transistor blowing,
> and was wondering of I could socket this with the snappable row-type
> sockets and plug the transistor into the socket. Would too much
> current be lost? More likely to build resistance? Any forseeable
> downside to this? If it works, replacing the ones that may commonly
> blow would be fast and easy, and there would only be one
> solder/desolder job (the first one, where the socket was installed).

You need to have a socket which will accommodate fairly heavy current.
I'm not aware of any specifically designed for TO-220 devices. It is
sort of a kluge, but you can use a T0-3 socket. Use a good one, like
the black plastic Augat ones, not the flimsy phenolic cheapies. It
takes a little care in mounting, but I have seen it done. The outer
two legs are bent down in a 90 degree fashion, inserted into the
socket pins, and the tab is mounted with a screw through the
screw-hole furthest from the pin-contacts. Of course this is going
through a heat-sink, with paste, the center leg is not soldered to
anything, the contact is achieved through the tab and screw. Watch
out how things are grounded to the heatsink, depending on the circuit
you may need to float it! As I say, not SOP but it's been done.

--Bob




--
=======================================================================
Bob Ellingson bobe@halted.com
Halted Specialties Co., Inc. http://www.halted.com
3500 Ryder St. (408) 732-1573
Santa Clara, Calif. 95051 USA (408) 732-6428 (FAX)
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 7:12:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

square peg in a smaller round hole. NO
Timathie
"Vic Ireland" <vicNOS*P*A*Mireland@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:crpui1pddds9jut0kf7nungio573saiesu@4ax.com...
> Tomorrow, I'm going to replace two P22NE10L transistors on a NASCAR at
> Q1/Q2 that were delivered bad out of the box (stuck open).
>
> I understand that LotR had issues with this type transistor blowing,
> and was wondering of I could socket this with the snappable row-type
> sockets and plug the transistor into the socket. Would too much
> current be lost? More likely to build resistance? Any forseeable
> downside to this? If it works, replacing the ones that may commonly
> blow would be fast and easy, and there would only be one
> solder/desolder job (the first one, where the socket was installed).
>
> Any comments?
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 7:20:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Resistance issues aside (which were discussed by GPE earlier in the
thread), this wouldn't work because the transistors are inline in
rows, and there isn't room to mount even one like this, let alone two.

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 02:55:46 GMT, "Bob E." <bobhsc@halted.com> wrote:

>Vic Ireland wrote:
>>
>> Tomorrow, I'm going to replace two P22NE10L transistors on a NASCAR at
>> Q1/Q2 that were delivered bad out of the box (stuck open).
>>
>> I understand that LotR had issues with this type transistor blowing,
>> and was wondering of I could socket this with the snappable row-type
>> sockets and plug the transistor into the socket. Would too much
>> current be lost? More likely to build resistance? Any forseeable
>> downside to this? If it works, replacing the ones that may commonly
>> blow would be fast and easy, and there would only be one
>> solder/desolder job (the first one, where the socket was installed).
>
>You need to have a socket which will accommodate fairly heavy current.
>I'm not aware of any specifically designed for TO-220 devices. It is
>sort of a kluge, but you can use a T0-3 socket. Use a good one, like
>the black plastic Augat ones, not the flimsy phenolic cheapies. It
>takes a little care in mounting, but I have seen it done. The outer
>two legs are bent down in a 90 degree fashion, inserted into the
>socket pins, and the tab is mounted with a screw through the
>screw-hole furthest from the pin-contacts. Of course this is going
>through a heat-sink, with paste, the center leg is not soldered to
>anything, the contact is achieved through the tab and screw. Watch
>out how things are grounded to the heatsink, depending on the circuit
>you may need to float it! As I say, not SOP but it's been done.
>
>--Bob
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 7:20:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

sure it would work you are mounting them on bottom of head, on the wood,
maybe use velcro or goop to hold the 6 screw terminal connector. Sure it
has a round hole but it has a flat bottom on the screw and on the base so it
just sandwiches the transistor leg between the two, you are mounting off the
board but if you needed to you just unscrew and put in new transistor. If
it is velcro down then when you need to pull the board the two home made
sockets can easily come with board. Trust me it would totally work, I have
fixed stuff long enough to know what would work and not. I know you wanted
to mount to the board but this is an alternative that will not give you
problems and the ability to put in a new transistor with no soldering,
resistance will not be an issue.

Trin
"Vic Ireland" <vicNOS*P*A*Mireland@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:ctvui1laoia7d5pm9g7dvi2qrqm3ljsjqu@4ax.com...
> Resistance issues aside (which were discussed by GPE earlier in the
> thread), this wouldn't work because the transistors are inline in
> rows, and there isn't room to mount even one like this, let alone two.
>
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 02:55:46 GMT, "Bob E." <bobhsc@halted.com> wrote:
>
>>Vic Ireland wrote:
>>>
>>> Tomorrow, I'm going to replace two P22NE10L transistors on a NASCAR at
>>> Q1/Q2 that were delivered bad out of the box (stuck open).
>>>
>>> I understand that LotR had issues with this type transistor blowing,
>>> and was wondering of I could socket this with the snappable row-type
>>> sockets and plug the transistor into the socket. Would too much
>>> current be lost? More likely to build resistance? Any forseeable
>>> downside to this? If it works, replacing the ones that may commonly
>>> blow would be fast and easy, and there would only be one
>>> solder/desolder job (the first one, where the socket was installed).
>>
>>You need to have a socket which will accommodate fairly heavy current.
>>I'm not aware of any specifically designed for TO-220 devices. It is
>>sort of a kluge, but you can use a T0-3 socket. Use a good one, like
>>the black plastic Augat ones, not the flimsy phenolic cheapies. It
>>takes a little care in mounting, but I have seen it done. The outer
>>two legs are bent down in a 90 degree fashion, inserted into the
>>socket pins, and the tab is mounted with a screw through the
>>screw-hole furthest from the pin-contacts. Of course this is going
>>through a heat-sink, with paste, the center leg is not soldered to
>>anything, the contact is achieved through the tab and screw. Watch
>>out how things are grounded to the heatsink, depending on the circuit
>>you may need to float it! As I say, not SOP but it's been done.
>>
>>--Bob
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 8:38:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I think most of the problem is down to computer software. Different
MOSFET's seem to blow on known games.

The driver board is generic and simple. The programmer has complete
control over gate switching. I expect they add magnets, solenoids,
lamps, motors and so fouth at will to meet a great theme, with only
slight consideration to current drawn etc. Then the programmer
switches these devices on and off in ways that the generic eletronics
can not handle in a continuous use situation. Later on, based upon
customer feedback service bulletins and code revisions are released to
fix said problem(s).

At the end of the day they are developed in speedy time to meet
business and production requirements of the company. Keeping them
going is another ball game!

(IMHO)
Ping
September 20, 2005 9:15:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

How about figuring out why the transistor keeps blowing in the first place
and/or substituting with one that can handle the job :) 

Woz

"wolfus" <timeisenga2@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:r6LXe.234$8B6.10@newssvr24.news.prodigy.net...
> square peg in a smaller round hole. NO
> Timathie
> "Vic Ireland" <vicNOS*P*A*Mireland@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:crpui1pddds9jut0kf7nungio573saiesu@4ax.com...
> > Tomorrow, I'm going to replace two P22NE10L transistors on a NASCAR at
> > Q1/Q2 that were delivered bad out of the box (stuck open).
> >
> > I understand that LotR had issues with this type transistor blowing,
> > and was wondering of I could socket this with the snappable row-type
> > sockets and plug the transistor into the socket. Would too much
> > current be lost? More likely to build resistance? Any forseeable
> > downside to this? If it works, replacing the ones that may commonly
> > blow would be fast and easy, and there would only be one
> > solder/desolder job (the first one, where the socket was installed).
> >
> > Any comments?
>
>
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 10:34:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I tried just that, using the snappable strip sockets. The transistor
would fall out now and then. Hence, I abanonded the idea. Better idea
was to use winged screws to mount the board so it was easier to remove
and repair.

steve

---
Steve Kulpa (cargpb10 - sigh)
Hermitage, TN
http://www.geocities.com/stevekulpa/rgpidx.htm
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 11:42:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I dunno what the circuit theory design is overall, but apparently LotR
has problems with Q6 MOSFET dying on stock machines (I never
experienced this on 3 LotR's, but that's what I hear). I am putting
beefier ones on the NASCAR tomorrow (the ones Pinballlife.com sells).

is, but On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 00:46:39 -0500, "GPE"
<See_my_website_for_email@cox.net> wrote:

>"martin" <martin.reynolds@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1127194533.620269.211850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> The best advice in this thread is, 1) if using a socket, solder the
>> pins in. And 2) stick in a beefier transistor.
>>
>> I'll bet that Ed at GPE has some nice alternatives. (IRL540, 100V 26A
>> instead of 55V 22A). I would also put in fast blow fuses, still beats
>> me why these machines have slo-blo. makes no sense at all.
>>
>> Never seen Stern electronics, but I always worry about clamp diodes.
>>
>
>Could also be a di/dt problem with the MOSFET's. Too rapid of a current
>rise thru the MOSFET within a short time period. Many mfr's tend to put
>small gate capacitors to slew rate limit the turn on time. Not sure if
>Stern does this as it has been several weeks since I've looked into Stern
>logics (much longer than my memory serves me).
>
>-- Ed
>
>
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 2:51:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Vic,

I just scanned the entries in this thread so I may have missed one
important point. Sorry, if it was already mentioned.

The type of transistor you are concerned with s a FET. FETs must be
properly grounded or thy can turn themselves on and short out.

Adding a socket to the mix improves the chance of a bad connection.
(I.E.: Like you were concerned with - added resistance.)

Because of vibration and "nudging", I don't recommend the use of a
socket for this application.

--
PinTed


Vic Ireland wrote:
> Tomorrow, I'm going to replace two P22NE10L transistors on a NASCAR at
> Q1/Q2 that were delivered bad out of the box (stuck open).
>
> I understand that LotR had issues with this type transistor blowing,
> and was wondering of I could socket this with the snappable row-type
> sockets and plug the transistor into the socket. Would too much
> current be lost? More likely to build resistance? Any forseeable
> downside to this? If it works, replacing the ones that may commonly
> blow would be fast and easy, and there would only be one
> solder/desolder job (the first one, where the socket was installed).
>
> Any comments?
Anonymous
September 20, 2005 3:21:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Tom Callahan's ToM saw kit had a PC board with a socketed TIP transistor.
Not sure where he got the sockets (I've never had to look for any myself).
Only thing I would be concerned about with using for a coil application
would be the current handling through the socket.

Nothing to lose and no harm done if you try- could give it a shot.

Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com

We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!



"Vic Ireland" <vicNOS*P*A*Mireland@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:crpui1pddds9jut0kf7nungio573saiesu@4ax.com...
> Tomorrow, I'm going to replace two P22NE10L transistors on a NASCAR at
> Q1/Q2 that were delivered bad out of the box (stuck open).
>
> I understand that LotR had issues with this type transistor blowing,
> and was wondering of I could socket this with the snappable row-type
> sockets and plug the transistor into the socket. Would too much
> current be lost? More likely to build resistance? Any forseeable
> downside to this? If it works, replacing the ones that may commonly
> blow would be fast and easy, and there would only be one
> solder/desolder job (the first one, where the socket was installed).
>
> Any comments?
!