Help, how many pins on a single 20 amp circuit?

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I have been advised 3 per 20 amp circuit, is this correct?
Are surge protectors a must?
I am desiging a gameroom and want the proper power for the pins.
thanks again from a newbie

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

You may want to search the Google archives for Kirb's answers on this.
It has been covered several times.

Jim
--
flipper [at] pa [dot] net

 

[dd]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Jeff,

I have eight machines on one 20 amp circuit and no problem. I tried ten
and it flipped the breaker.

DD

Jeff Reynolds wrote:
> I have been advised 3 per 20 amp circuit, is this correct?
> Are surge protectors a must?
> I am desiging a gameroom and want the proper power for the pins.
> thanks again from a newbie

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Not that I am an expert. Game says 8 Amps. I seriously doubt it draws
all 8 at once, but hey.

I have had 5 on one circuit, and one game in particular would start
acting odd. Seems it was pulling down the power.

4 on at once with no problem.

These figures for DMD 90's+ games

I would go with more and not less, and plan on not using all 20 amps at
on one circuit.

If you are going ground up... add more.

Ask your electrician to look at it, if you trust them.

Sure there has to be at least one sparky out there...

Andrew





Jeff Reynolds wrote:
> I have been advised 3 per 20 amp circuit, is this correct?
> Are surge protectors a must?
> I am desiging a gameroom and want the proper power for the pins.
> thanks again from a newbie

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I also use four games on 20 amps as my rule of thumb. They are rated at
8 amps per game but don't draw that much all at once. You're safe
assuming 5 amps per game.

Mike

 

[martin]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Figure 2 - 2.5A in attract mode for a modern DMD.

Up to 4 - 4.5A in multiball.

So in a 20A circuit:

10 machines, maybe, if you don't play them and they are lower end power
draw.

7 typical machines, only one in multiball.

6 machines, mostly in use.

However, you may find that 6 machines on one circuit softens play a bit
if your wiring is not solid. That's your biggest concern.

No need whatsoever for a surge protector, on transformer pins. Anything
that can get through the pinball transformer will blow a surge
protector into smoke.

Now is the time for extra circuits, it is all one wire pull if you are
going to an existing breaker box. Three machines per circuit sounds
like a view based on the maximum ratings label, which way overstates
the load.

 

[otto]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

5-6 no problem with a dedicated line. That assumes all of the machines are
being actively played at the same time.

The electric experts have hooked up their machines to meters that record
amperage during useage and they average about 2-3 amps per machine. My guess
is the attract amperage is well under 2 amps.

A typical compressor(frig or window a/c unit) will pull about 15 amps on
start up. If you put the pins on the same line the pins will probably fuss
with resets.


Otto

CARGPB11

My web page: http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-Ottoslanding

 

[Taxman]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

That sounds about right, but it also depends on what kind of machines. I
ran a mix (DMD, SS, EM) on a 15 amp for a couple of months, but one day it
blew. I also had an inverted that I could plug into my truck to run Royal
Flush Deluxe when we were camping in the woods. Powered it just fine. But
one day I tried Swords of Fury and it would not boot without tripping the
inverter's breaker.

I am sure Twilight Zone has a different draw when your knocking a ball
around and when your in Multi-Ball with one trying to defeat the power.

Better safe than sorry, let us know when you end up on each circuit. I am
just finishing selling some pins and vids to get my collection down to what
I want to keep and then I want to do then same as you.

- Dave

http://pages.cthome.net/tui/Arcade.htm



"dd" <armandb@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1127959064.840157.204300@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Jeff,
>
> I have eight machines on one 20 amp circuit and no problem. I tried ten
> and it flipped the breaker.
>
> DD
>
> Jeff Reynolds wrote:
> > I have been advised 3 per 20 amp circuit, is this correct?
> > Are surge protectors a must?
> > I am desiging a gameroom and want the proper power for the pins.
> > thanks again from a newbie
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

You brought a pin when you were camping in the woods? Did I understand this
correctly? Wow.

--
Josh
http://www.pingeek.com
Pinball dvds for sale online and at The York Show, 10/7 - 10/8,
http://www.theyorkshow.com
"Taxman" <NOSPAMdavid.tkacs@snet.net> wrote in message
news:rlI_e.498$qX7.228@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
> That sounds about right, but it also depends on what kind of machines. I
> ran a mix (DMD, SS, EM) on a 15 amp for a couple of months, but one day it
> blew. I also had an inverted that I could plug into my truck to run Royal
> Flush Deluxe when we were camping in the woods. Powered it just fine.
> But
> one day I tried Swords of Fury and it would not boot without tripping the
> inverter's breaker.
>
> I am sure Twilight Zone has a different draw when your knocking a ball
> around and when your in Multi-Ball with one trying to defeat the power.
>
> Better safe than sorry, let us know when you end up on each circuit. I am
> just finishing selling some pins and vids to get my collection down to
> what
> I want to keep and then I want to do then same as you.
>
> - Dave
>
> http://pages.cthome.net/tui/Arcade.htm
>
>
>
> "dd" <armandb@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:1127959064.840157.204300@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> Jeff,
>>
>> I have eight machines on one 20 amp circuit and no problem. I tried ten
>> and it flipped the breaker.
>>
>> DD
>>
>> Jeff Reynolds wrote:
>> > I have been advised 3 per 20 amp circuit, is this correct?
>> > Are surge protectors a must?
>> > I am desiging a gameroom and want the proper power for the pins.
>> > thanks again from a newbie
>>
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

You people make me sick (well more like jealous). I have a single
pinball, that is working and 1 project from hell that appears to just
be a money pit. I would love to be at that point of needing to know
how many machines I can put on a single circuit! Good information,
maybe I will be there someday.
Mark : )


martin wrote:
> Figure 2 - 2.5A in attract mode for a modern DMD.
>
> Up to 4 - 4.5A in multiball.
>
> So in a 20A circuit:
>
> 10 machines, maybe, if you don't play them and they are lower end power
> draw.
>
> 7 typical machines, only one in multiball.
>
> 6 machines, mostly in use.
>
> However, you may find that 6 machines on one circuit softens play a bit
> if your wiring is not solid. That's your biggest concern.
>
> No need whatsoever for a surge protector, on transformer pins. Anything
> that can get through the pinball transformer will blow a surge
> protector into smoke.
>
> Now is the time for extra circuits, it is all one wire pull if you are
> going to an existing breaker box. Three machines per circuit sounds
> like a view based on the maximum ratings label, which way overstates
> the load.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

This may be a stupid question, but does the formula change for 220v?
The reason I ask is I will soon be moving into a home in Germany that
will allow me to set up my 10 pins, 5 vids and a juke. I seem to
recall a while back someone saying something to that effect, but can't
seem to find it.

TIA,

Rian



Mike Schudel wrote:
> > Figure 2 - 2.5A in attract mode for a modern DMD.
> >
> > Up to 4 - 4.5A in multiball.
> >
> > So in a 20A circuit:
> >
> > 10 machines, maybe, if you don't play them and they are lower end power
> > draw.
> >
> > 7 typical machines, only one in multiball.
> >
> > 6 machines, mostly in use.
> >
> > However, you may find that 6 machines on one circuit softens play a bit
> > if your wiring is not solid. That's your biggest concern.
> >
> > No need whatsoever for a surge protector, on transformer pins. Anything
> > that can get through the pinball transformer will blow a surge
> > protector into smoke.
>
> Google for my and Kirb's independent testing. We are both EE's so the
> testing was done using some instruments, namely a Fluke 87 and 1000:1
> clamp-on CT.
>
> Most games whether in attract mode, being played or in multiball pull
> roughly the same current (2 to 2.5A). Sure there could be small spikes that
> would NEVER be seen by a breaker. Breakers are rated at 80%, so a 20A
> breaker is only good for a sustained current of 15 amps. Do the math, but
> that works out to 6 to 7 games per circuit depending on current draw.
>
> For simplicity 6 games per 20A circuit is the rule. Can more be hooked up
> per circuit? Sure, but you run the risk of tripping the circuit. Breakers
> can become weak and trip prematurely.
>
> Whole house surge protectors are the only way to go. One on the main panel
> and one on the sub-panel feeding the gameroom. Another good idea are surge
> receptacles that replace the existing receptacle and some even have
> replaceable MOV modules. It's good to have several layers of protection.
> Those plug in surge protectors are just a marketing gimmick. Most modern
> electronic pins have a MOV and filter as part of the line circuit
>
> --
> Mike S.
> Kalamazoo, MI
>
> Gameroom: http://tinyurl.com/4hfev
> W C S Owner's List: http://tinyurl.com/39cjo
> M B Scoop Repair: http://tinyurl.com/9lfu
> --------------------------------------------

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

wouldn't it be halved? i.e. if the pin pulls 1000watts, at 220volts,
that's approx 4.5 amps vs. 8.5 amps on 110.....

I do seem to recall that the 220v machines all came with 4amp main
fuses instead of 8 amp

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Awesome!

Thanks!

Rian


Mike Schudel wrote:
> > This may be a stupid question, but does the formula change for 220v?
> > The reason I ask is I will soon be moving into a home in Germany that
> > will allow me to set up my 10 pins, 5 vids and a juke. I seem to
> > recall a while back someone saying something to that effect, but can't
> > seem to find it.
>
> P=IV
>
> Power is always constant, so if you increase voltage then the amperage must
> decrease proportionally to keep the power the same.
>
> So, at 220V a pin will pull 1 to 1.5 Amps. Now, I don't know what standard
> breaker sizes in Europe would be, but lets say they have 15A and 20A like we
> do. Then based on 80% rating, we get 8 pins and 10 pins respectively on a
> 220V system.
>
> This is the basis on why power is transmitted at high voltages...it keeps
> the current low which is what wire, bussing, etc are all sized for.
>
> --
> Mike S.
> Kalamazoo, MI
>
> Gameroom: http://tinyurl.com/4hfev
> W C S Owner's List: http://tinyurl.com/39cjo
> M B Scoop Repair: http://tinyurl.com/9lfu
> --------------------------------------------

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

> Figure 2 - 2.5A in attract mode for a modern DMD.
>
> Up to 4 - 4.5A in multiball.
>
> So in a 20A circuit:
>
> 10 machines, maybe, if you don't play them and they are lower end power
> draw.
>
> 7 typical machines, only one in multiball.
>
> 6 machines, mostly in use.
>
> However, you may find that 6 machines on one circuit softens play a bit
> if your wiring is not solid. That's your biggest concern.
>
> No need whatsoever for a surge protector, on transformer pins. Anything
> that can get through the pinball transformer will blow a surge
> protector into smoke.

Google for my and Kirb's independent testing. We are both EE's so the
testing was done using some instruments, namely a Fluke 87 and 1000:1
clamp-on CT.

Most games whether in attract mode, being played or in multiball pull
roughly the same current (2 to 2.5A). Sure there could be small spikes that
would NEVER be seen by a breaker. Breakers are rated at 80%, so a 20A
breaker is only good for a sustained current of 15 amps. Do the math, but
that works out to 6 to 7 games per circuit depending on current draw.

For simplicity 6 games per 20A circuit is the rule. Can more be hooked up
per circuit? Sure, but you run the risk of tripping the circuit. Breakers
can become weak and trip prematurely.

Whole house surge protectors are the only way to go. One on the main panel
and one on the sub-panel feeding the gameroom. Another good idea are surge
receptacles that replace the existing receptacle and some even have
replaceable MOV modules. It's good to have several layers of protection.
Those plug in surge protectors are just a marketing gimmick. Most modern
electronic pins have a MOV and filter as part of the line circuit

--
Mike S.
Kalamazoo, MI

Gameroom: http://tinyurl.com/4hfev
W C S Owner's List: http://tinyurl.com/39cjo
M B Scoop Repair: http://tinyurl.com/9lfu
--------------------------------------------

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

I, too, have had 8 on one 20 amp circuit- no problems.

Typically, they say a pin pulls 3 amps when running- like a vacuum cleaner.

6 pins x 3 amps = 18 amps. That's a safe estimate.

Some pull more than others. So your mileage may vary.

Ray J.
--
Action Pinball & Amusement, LLC
Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Web: www.actionpinball.com

We're serious about pinball. Anything else is just for fun!



"dd" <armandb@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1127959064.840157.204300@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Jeff,
>
> I have eight machines on one 20 amp circuit and no problem. I tried ten
> and it flipped the breaker.
>
> DD
>
> Jeff Reynolds wrote:
> > I have been advised 3 per 20 amp circuit, is this correct?
> > Are surge protectors a must?
> > I am desiging a gameroom and want the proper power for the pins.
> > thanks again from a newbie
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

> This may be a stupid question, but does the formula change for 220v?
> The reason I ask is I will soon be moving into a home in Germany that
> will allow me to set up my 10 pins, 5 vids and a juke. I seem to
> recall a while back someone saying something to that effect, but can't
> seem to find it.

P=IV

Power is always constant, so if you increase voltage then the amperage must
decrease proportionally to keep the power the same.

So, at 220V a pin will pull 1 to 1.5 Amps. Now, I don't know what standard
breaker sizes in Europe would be, but lets say they have 15A and 20A like we
do. Then based on 80% rating, we get 8 pins and 10 pins respectively on a
220V system.

This is the basis on why power is transmitted at high voltages...it keeps
the current low which is what wire, bussing, etc are all sized for.

--
Mike S.
Kalamazoo, MI

Gameroom: http://tinyurl.com/4hfev
W C S Owner's List: http://tinyurl.com/39cjo
M B Scoop Repair: http://tinyurl.com/9lfu
--------------------------------------------

 

[cah]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Mike Schudel wrote:
> > This may be a stupid question, but does the formula change for 220v?
> > The reason I ask is I will soon be moving into a home in Germany that
> > will allow me to set up my 10 pins, 5 vids and a juke. I seem to
> > recall a while back someone saying something to that effect, but can't
> > seem to find it.
>
> P=IV
This equation I believe is based on a constant voltage, not constant
power. This equation solves for I or P when only one is known.

P = IV, P = (lets say 3A) * (120V) = 360W

Also note the equations R = V / I, and P = V² / R

R = (120V / 3A) = 40O

and (360W) = (120V)² / (40O) which checks out.

If you were to step up to 240V (without transforming back down to 120V)

P = V² / R = (240V)² / (40O) = 1440W (Resistance will stay the same,
it is dependant only on temperature, the length of the wire, and the
cross sectional area)

I = P / V = (1440W) / (240V) = 6A

I'm certain this wouldn't be a very good thing. Might fry all sorts of
circuitry in the game.

I am not trying to pose as some kind of electrical expert or anything,
but I literally just went through a chapter titled "Current and
Resistance" in College Physics and got the calculations I just made
DIRECTLY from a practice problem that says,

"What will happen if you hook you hook up a device rated for 120V use,
in Britain, where the rms Voltage is 240V?"

>
> Power is always constant, so if you increase voltage then the amperage must
> decrease proportionally to keep the power the same.
>
> So, at 220V a pin will pull 1 to 1.5 Amps. Now, I don't know what standard
> breaker sizes in Europe would be, but lets say they have 15A and 20A like we
> do. Then based on 80% rating, we get 8 pins and 10 pins respectively on a
> 220V system.
>
> This is the basis on why power is transmitted at high voltages...it keeps
> the current low which is what wire, bussing, etc are all sized for.
>
> --
> Mike S.
> Kalamazoo, MI
>
> Gameroom: http://tinyurl.com/4hfev
> W C S Owner's List: http://tinyurl.com/39cjo
> M B Scoop Repair: http://tinyurl.com/9lfu
> --------------------------------------------

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

Jeff Reynolds wrote:
> I have been advised 3 per 20 amp circuit, is this correct?
> Are surge protectors a must?
> I am desiging a gameroom and want the proper power for the pins.
> thanks again from a newbie

people,

PLEASE listen to Mike S. He and I have done the same tests and came up
with the same results. Don't do the "I tried this and it worked"
routine. I did these tests so I could wire up my own game room.

Mike used a clamp on ammeter and fluke, I used my Fluke 87 direct in
line with the game. Same results.

20A x .8 (80%) = 16A per circuit. Use 2.5 Amps per game (good average-
could be less with all EM games). works out to 6.4 games per circuit.
That works out to three duplex outlets. I spaced mine every 3rd stud
which gives an outlet lined up for the games just about perfect.

Kirb

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

CAH wrote:
> Mike Schudel wrote:
> > > This may be a stupid question, but does the formula change for 220v?
> > > The reason I ask is I will soon be moving into a home in Germany that
> > > will allow me to set up my 10 pins, 5 vids and a juke. I seem to
> > > recall a while back someone saying something to that effect, but can't
> > > seem to find it.
> >
> > P=IV
> This equation I believe is based on a constant voltage, not constant
> power. This equation solves for I or P when only one is known.

YIKES!

this formula can be for ANY variable. POWER NEVER CHANGES. When you
increase voltage, current decreases. Power in a device is constant
(more or less).

> I am not trying to pose as some kind of electrical expert or anything,

That is a good thing, because your calcs are not correct.

The power to run a pinball does not change. It doesn't matter if the
primary of the transformer is tapped for 100,120,240, or whatever. The
only thing that changes is the current in respect to what the voltage
is.

Kirb

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.pinball (More info?)

> P=IV
> This equation I believe is based on a constant voltage, not constant
> power. This equation solves for I or P when only one is known.

1st mistake- P, I, or V can be solved for.

> P = IV, P = (lets say 3A) * (120V) = 360W
> Also note the equations R = V / I, and P = V² / R
> R = (120V / 3A) = 40O
> and (360W) = (120V)² / (40O) which checks out.

You can't really use "R" since a transformer is a non-linear device,
but we will use your calcs for now for simplicity sake.

> If you were to step up to 240V (without transforming back down to 120V)
> P = V² / R = (240V)² / (40O) = 1440W (Resistance will stay the same,
> it is dependant only on temperature, the length of the wire, and the
> cross sectional area)

Mistake #2. You assume that the resistance (impedance) does not change.
When you re-tap the transformer for 240V, you just changed the apparent
impeadance of the circuit. This is your statement of "without
transforming back down to 120V". You are not transforming back down to
120V, but re-tapping the transformer which does the same thing.

> "What will happen if you hook you hook up a device rated for 120V use,
> in Britain, where the rms Voltage is 240V?"

Mistake #3. You took a statement above in assuming that a 120V rated
item was going to be plugged into a 240V outlet. Pinballs have multiple
taps on them and are able to be re-tapped to plug into a 240V system
and have the same output voltages for the game to use.

Bottom line- double voltage, half current.

Kirb